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Argonath RPG Community => Speakerbox => World and local news => Topic started by: Reece on March 24, 2014, 10:16:07 pm

Title: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Reece on March 24, 2014, 10:16:07 pm
A video showing Albuquerque cops assaulting, shooting and killing a mentally ill homeless man who was illegally camping has sparked outrage and calls for greater oversight of the consistently brutal police department.

ProgressNow, a New Mexico-based progressive advocacy group noted that while “Albuquerque’s new police chief, Gordon Eden, announced Friday that he had determined officers who shot and killed a homeless camper on city property on March 16 were justified in their actions… a video from the scene released by the department on the same day shows officers negotiating a peaceful surrender with the subject, then attacking him with a flashbang grenade as he walks towards them on their command.”

When 38-year-old James Boyd then retreated from the bombardment, he was shot with live rounds and later died. The killing is just the latest in a series of incidents of police brutality perpetrated by the Albuquerque department. As ProgressNow reported:

The Albuquerque Police Department has been under federal review by the U.S. Department of Justice since 2012 when the agency’s record of shooting 25 suspect – 17 fatal – garnered national attention. The department has added 11 more shootings to that list since the end of 2012. Albuquerque officers have shot more persons than the NYPD, a department serving a city 16-times larger, since 2010.

Video does show him dying, so if you are sensitive to that kind of stuff.... don't watch it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DngOL6LokN4
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Leroy_Kolta on March 25, 2014, 12:08:01 am
Wow. Shame how people can do such things. But by the looks of it they did follow some type of procedure.

He did evade (on foot), as you can see he turns away and starts running (or walking) away. That is when officers shoot him (live rounds?).
He did have a "lethal" weapon in his hands, a knife.
In theory, a person with a knife has a better chance of hurting you than you do with a gun within 21 feet (Per National Rifle Association(NRA) and Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives(ATF)).
In a way, they had all right to shoot at this "suspect". But it seems he did not have any fair chance. Yes, officers did try to give him one in the beginning and once he refused that right, he lost it.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: zipp3r on March 25, 2014, 12:42:49 am
Those scumbags should be shot to death. Poor man. May he rest in peace.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Polar on March 25, 2014, 04:20:41 am
I don't want to live in this country anymore...

So much wrong with this situation, it's just overwhelmingly stupid.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Chase on March 25, 2014, 05:42:35 am
Have these cops ever heard of something called a taser? Would have been the best option in that situation.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Polar on March 25, 2014, 11:34:17 am
Have these cops ever heard of something called a taser? Would have been the best option in that situation.
Exactly. In the briefing given by the chief of police there, he said Beanbag shotguns AND tazers were deployed to the scene (Unknown as to why), and they decide to aim rifles at him... Then pop 2 in his back (Instead on one to the leg), then not understand why he can't move, after being shot in the spine...?

These cops are sick fucks. I feel like they wanted to torture him like that.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Oliver on March 25, 2014, 11:40:38 am
Have these cops ever heard of something called a taser? Would have been the best option in that situation.

You do realise that you're completely fucked if you miss with the taser? Not to mention the fact that there have been cases where a taser has done absolutely fuck all, leaving officers in danger if the suspect decides to take a swing at them with a knife.

Knives are just as dangerous as firearms and should be considered lethal weapons at all times.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2xpcrDzy344
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: aleksandar_gojkovic on March 25, 2014, 11:51:53 am
And the shot man was all like: I should have turned left at Albuquerque, not go trough it...  :lol: :lol: :lol: Bugs Bunny... Gotta love him  :rofl:
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Chase on March 25, 2014, 01:20:50 pm
If the taser misses, it is bad indeed. I'm not saying lethal force wasn't justified. I am just saying they could have at least gave it a try before jumping to live ammunition.

I don't know what the procedure for these cops are - but cops in my area are supposed to have several officers with their guns aimed at the non-compliant suspect, while another attempts to shoot him with the taser. That way if the taser fails and the guy flips his shit, they can easily neutralize him with live ammo.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Oliver on March 25, 2014, 01:53:21 pm
Situations happen a lot faster in reality than they do in video clips and sometimes you even completely forget all of your training since the adrenaline takes over. You don't have time to thoroughly analyze the situation and split second decisions need to be made, and shooting at an armed and dangerous man is a lot less risky than fiddling around with a taser or other non-lethal means to disable him.

Most of the time when a cop dies in the line of duty, they were trying to give the perp the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Reece on March 25, 2014, 05:16:24 pm
The cops were with him for 3 hours prior to shooting him.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: ClazzyJogel on March 26, 2014, 10:46:53 pm
Justified without any doubt. I am glad none of the officers got hurt.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on April 01, 2014, 03:48:29 am
Justified shoot. An officer without gun drawn(K9) was within the dead zone(21feet) and downhill of the knife wielding suspect with a lengthy criminal history, along with mental illnesses. He made a movement towards the officer, then retracted. Shots were fired AS he was walking away. Non-lethal force was used 3 times prior to lethal force. A flashbang, K9, and beanbag. None of these worked.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Nexus_Riggs on April 01, 2014, 06:33:46 am
This is insane and inhumane act of those Officers.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Leroy_Kolta on April 01, 2014, 09:44:28 pm
Justified shoot. An officer without gun drawn(K9) was within the dead zone(21feet) and downhill of the knife wielding suspect with a lengthy criminal history, along with mental illnesses. He made a movement towards the officer, then retracted. Shots were fired AS he was walking away. Non-lethal force was used 3 times prior to lethal force. A flashbang, K9, and beanbag. None of these worked.

^ Totally legit.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Kaze on April 01, 2014, 09:50:27 pm
(http://images.amcnetworks.com/amctv.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/BB-S5B-Hank-590.jpg)
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: AK47 on April 01, 2014, 10:09:28 pm
'Murica.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Leroy_Kolta on April 02, 2014, 04:00:07 pm
And what movie is that picture from? lol!
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Kaze on April 02, 2014, 07:26:47 pm
And what movie is that picture from? lol!

You dont understand how much I laugh at that everytime I see it, even if Im the one who posted it!

It is DEA Agent Hank Schrader in Breaking Bad. Breaking Bad is set in Albuquerque.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: JDC on April 02, 2014, 11:35:47 pm
Police brutality. If the suspect was dangerous, and as he was not holding any heavy firearms, then a tazer or tranquilizer dart would have done the job. It's not like he's some kind of mutant who could resist several hundred thousand volts, is he now?
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: SugarD on April 03, 2014, 02:27:27 am
'Murica.
No.

The suspect and the officers were in the wrong. The suspect repeatedly reached for his waistband, but the cops didn't use force. The cop with the camera also made the mistake of shooting the suspect in the back as he fled. The movement towards the officers by the suspect was not nearly enough to validate shooting the suspect. All he did was lean from a large distance. The only person who "should" have made the mistake of shooting him over that would be the officer closest to him.

The shooting is not justified, but either are the actions of the mentally-unstable man reaching for his waistband. If anything, the officers carrying the TASER shotguns, (the yellow ones), should have used further lesser-lethal force on him the moment he reached down. The officers would not be allowed to use lethal force until the moment they see something coming out that resembles a weapon, but the man's hands continued to stay empty. They also failed to tell him to keep his hands where they could see them. That is a huge training mistake.

No one is at fault in this video other than the cameraman. The suspect being mentally-unstable created a confusing, unpredictable situation to which the other officers responded correctly to. The cameraman was the one who made a fatal mistake, (no pun intended). Other than the actions of the cameraman, the escalation of force by the officers was handled properly.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Senate on April 03, 2014, 05:29:39 am
This is an image used for training in most police academy's across the US to emphasize to officers why you should never confront lethal force with non-lethal force. This cop decided that a knife was not a problem for him or his taser and this is the result, much worse could have happened.

At the end of the day these guys are going home to their family's one way or another, a guy with a knife is not going to stop that from happening. Justified shoot.


(http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y119/devous/ppd.jpg~original)
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Reece on April 03, 2014, 10:34:18 am
Never confront lethal force with non-lethal force?

So because these cops want to cop back to their families, it is justified for them to kill a man who likely has no connections to any of his family because he is homeless? They spent three hours with this guy, and they still killed him. Why not call more units? Shields? Different types of protection, rather than shoot him as he turns away.

Sure there are lots of ifs and buts with a situation like this, but there are always different ways it can be handled and I feel that shooting him dead, in this case really was not needed.

Of course other people will disagree, and some will agree with me, but that is the way of the world and certainly here in the UK people are very rarely killed by police, even when they have lethal force such as a knife.

Examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XE-l4P_6zE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owodGANNpBY
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Zlatan on April 03, 2014, 03:52:09 pm
Idiots, morons...

Killing a homeless man who was camping, again I repeat, homeless... How cold hearted can you get? This video just shows it. I fucking hate this, it disgusts me. They later on step on him like he was some kind of animal, a pray not a person...

They should all get jailed for life or executed because we don't need garbage, atleast not anymore garbage in this world....
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Alexander_Rijav on April 03, 2014, 04:05:40 pm
Never confront lethal force with non-lethal force?

So because these cops want to cop back to their families, it is justified for them to kill a man who likely has no connections to any of his family because he is homeless? They spent three hours with this guy, and they still killed him. Why not call more units? Shields? Different types of protection, rather than shoot him as he turns away.

Sure there are lots of ifs and buts with a situation like this, but there are always different ways it can be handled and I feel that shooting him dead, in this case really was not needed.

Of course other people will disagree, and some will agree with me, but that is the way of the world and certainly here in the UK people are very rarely killed by police, even when they have lethal force such as a knife.

Examples:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cX5CPx4RKWw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6XE-l4P_6zE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owodGANNpBY
There will always be difference between British styled (Including Canada,Australia,Honk Kong and New Zealand) and the American styled ones.   :neutral2:
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on April 03, 2014, 06:12:06 pm
Fuck I hate when people from foreign countries know my country's use of force policies better than I do! Wait, what? I forgot most people on the internet have policing training, right???

If you're not qualified to speak on a topic - don't.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: JDC on April 03, 2014, 07:25:44 pm
The real question that bothers me here, is why they spent 3 hours confronting someone who was clearly not thinking correctly, only to kill him instead of shooting him with a tranquilizer dart or something else.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Kaze on April 03, 2014, 07:39:06 pm
I don't know why everyone is surprised, you see this happen in game everyday.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Reece on April 03, 2014, 08:04:40 pm
Fuck I hate when people from foreign countries know my country's use of force policies better than I do! Wait, what? I forgot most people on the internet have policing training, right???

If you're not qualified to speak on a topic - don't.

Nobody needs to be qualified to discuss here. It is a board for discussion and debate. If you do not like that, then do not post here.

You don't need police training to discuss other ways this COULD have been handled or how it would have been handled in other countries.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on April 03, 2014, 08:59:34 pm
Actually, if you have no idea how American police are supposed to handle things, you really shouldn't be trying to engage in debate.

@JDC, tranquilizers are not used in policing for a number of reasons. Tranquilizers work based on weight, therefore they would have to estimate the correct dosage to hit him with. Too little wouldn't do anything, too much would kill them. You need to go to a medical school for years and years to be knowledgeable on the correct dosage for each individual. This simply wouldn't make sense for  officers to use.

Also, why other less than lethals were not used. You DO NOT under ANY circumstances(if you're even half way intelligent in American policing) use less than lethal force on someone using lethal force. Displaying knifes and being within the 21 feet "kill zone" is considered deadly force, for a very good reason. You would not use pepper spray for a plethora of reasons. Reason number one being, it's can be very ineffective. Pepper spray in a lot of cases just pisses the attack off. It makes them more angry. On top of that, in order to pepper spray someone, you need to be within 10 feet of them. As stated multiple times, you do not want to be within 21 feet of anyone with a knife. To top it all off, pepper spray is bad if you're against the wind. Not only will the suspect not be sprayed, only your officers will.

As for tasers, again you have to be within 10 feet. This simply isn't safe, as stated numerous times before. And if it's windy, your darts will likely not hit their target. Also, if you're wearing thick clothes or baggy clothes like the suspect was in the incident, the darts may not puncture you enough to be effective. And like any other less than lethal - tasers do not ALWAYS work.

The officers were dealing with this man for 3 hours at least, he took out two knifes and made a movement towards an officer in the "kill zone" hence why he was shot. This IS a justified shooing - whether your opinion differs or there were other options.

This is straight from APD's use of force policy.

"Officers are authorized to use deadly force, by any means, in order to:
1. Protect the officer or others from what is reasonably believed to be an
immediate threat of death or serious physical injury;
2. Prevent the escape of one reasonably believed to have committed a
felony, but only when:
 
Ø· There is probable cause to believe the suspect poses a
 immediate threat of death or serious physical injury to
the officer or others."

A deranged, mentally ill man bearing two knifes within 21 feet of an unarmed officer(no gun out, only dog - dogs are considered less than lethal) is MOST DEFINITELY an immediate threat of death or serious physical injury - this is indisputable.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Vince on April 03, 2014, 10:08:30 pm
Actually, if you have no idea how American police are supposed to handle things, you really shouldn't be trying to engage in debate.

@JDC, tranquilizers are not used in policing for a number of reasons. Tranquilizers work based on weight, therefore they would have to estimate the correct dosage to hit him with. Too little wouldn't do anything, too much would kill them. You need to go to a medical school for years and years to be knowledgeable on the correct dosage for each individual. This simply wouldn't make sense for  officers to use.

Also, why other less than lethals were not used. You DO NOT under ANY circumstances(if you're even half way intelligent in American policing) use less than lethal force on someone using lethal force. Displaying knifes and being within the 21 feet "kill zone" is considered deadly force, for a very good reason. You would not use pepper spray for a plethora of reasons. Reason number one being, it's can be very ineffective. Pepper spray in a lot of cases just pisses the attack off. It makes them more angry. On top of that, in order to pepper spray someone, you need to be within 10 feet of them. As stated multiple times, you do not want to be within 21 feet of anyone with a knife. To top it all off, pepper spray is bad if you're against the wind. Not only will the suspect not be sprayed, only your officers will.

As for tasers, again you have to be within 10 feet. This simply isn't safe, as stated numerous times before. And if it's windy, your darts will likely not hit their target. Also, if you're wearing thick clothes or baggy clothes like the suspect was in the incident, the darts may not puncture you enough to be effective. And like any other less than lethal - tasers do not ALWAYS work.

The officers were dealing with this man for 3 hours at least, he took out two knifes and made a movement towards an officer in the "kill zone" hence why he was shot. This IS a justified shooing - whether your opinion differs or there were other options.

This is straight from APD's use of force policy.

"Officers are authorized to use deadly force, by any means, in order to:
1. Protect the officer or others from what is reasonably believed to be an
immediate threat of death or serious physical injury;
2. Prevent the escape of one reasonably believed to have committed a
felony, but only when:
 
Ø· There is probable cause to believe the suspect poses a
 immediate threat of death or serious physical injury to
the officer or others."

A deranged, mentally ill man bearing two knifes within 21 feet of an unarmed officer(no gun out, only dog - dogs are considered less than lethal) is MOST DEFINITELY an immediate threat of death or serious physical injury - this is indisputable.

Agreed, although I didn't read what you wrote.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Axison on April 04, 2014, 02:29:05 pm
Agreed, although I didn't read what you wrote.
LOL!
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Dean. on April 04, 2014, 03:11:29 pm
he should have /gu and asked for an investigation.
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: Kaze on April 04, 2014, 03:29:23 pm
he should have /gu and asked for an investigation.

 :lol:
Title: Re: Albuquerque cops assault and kill camping homeless man
Post by: SugarD on April 26, 2014, 12:32:35 pm
There is a common misconception here. There is no such thing as non-lethal force anymore. It is now referred to as lesser-lethal force.

As for understanding how this works, you'll want to learn about a Law Enforcement agency's "use of force policy", which describes the escalation of force in a specific situation. The escalation of force, in its basic description, states that one should use their own common sense and judgement to use the least amount of force necessary to stop the threat.

For example, you would not pull pepper spray out on a man with a gun, but you may use a pepper spray on an unarmed man who is aggressively fighting you, trying to cause injury.

Likewise, you would not pull a gun on an unarmed man, but you might pull a gun on a man with a knife who is brandishing it.


Clearly this video is a very good example of someone not understanding how to escalate force properly, and thus should not have been given the option to respond to these situations accordingly. This is why officers involved in shootings are heavily scrutinized for their actions, and must justify their reasoning for taking the actions they did.
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