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(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/a/ae/Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg/220px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png) (http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/10/Flag_of_Scotland.svg/220px-Flag_of_Scotland.svg.png)
Thursday 18th September 2014
On 18 September 2014 millions of Scots will vote on whether they want their country to become independent or remain part of the United Kingdom: "Should Scotland be an independent country?"
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wait, scotland is actually a country?
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I do like the look of this flag without Scotland, but I'd still be voting no if I could.
(http://s3.mmoguildsites.com/s3/gallery_images/398371/original.jpg?1326290533)
Besides, it's not like Scotland will really be independent if they vote 'Yes', they will be part of the abomination that is the EU, they want to keep the queen as head of state, and want to create a 'Sterling Zone' with the UK (which the UK will refuse), maybe Scottish people should wake up and see that for once and only once Westminister is offering them the best of both worlds if they vote no, they have the choice to remain part of a strong United Kingdom with major global influence and control most of their own Government which is what they wanted years ago, yes the Govt should have devolved more powers back then but what exactly do they think they are going to get if they vote 'Yes'? They want to get rid of the UK's nuclear submarine base, meaning they will be banished from joining NATO, they want to re-join the EU, meaning the EU will have alot more control in Scotland's affairs than they currently do whilst Scotland is part of the anti-EU but still EU-UK, they will be inheriting a large amount of the UK's debt and will have to reform many major government departments, the main one being the military which is not cheap at all, they seem to think they can rely 100% on North Sea oil, well wake up, North Oil has been drilled for years and is running out, I guess it doesn't matter though, Salmond has gotten to everyone's heads up north, good luck getting those giant jobless numbers down without the UK, infact it'll just go up.
(http://www.crossed-flag-pins.com/animated-flag-gif/gifs/Great-Britain_240-animated-flag-gifs.gif)
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wait, scotland is actually a country?
Has been for hundreds of years.
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wait, scotland is actually a country?
UK = 4 countries, England, Wales, Scotland and N.Ireland.
England is NOT the entire UK, as some people (mainly Americans) think.
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wait, scotland is actually a country?
The United Kingdom is a union of countries England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.
I do like the look of this flag without Scotland
One of the better flags that I've seen but none can replace the Union Jack.
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One of the better flags that I've seen but none can replace the Union Jack.
I agree with that. :)
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they want to re-join the EU
"We want independence"
*wants to join the EU*
Doesn't make sense to me.
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"We want independence"
*wants to join the EU*
Doesn't make sense to me.
It seems to me that Scotland (or just the yes voters) are being extremely ignorant in terms of wanting to leave the UK but keep all the best stuff, they want to take much of our military with them, much of our wealth and want to keep the pound, not to mention they want to get rid of our nuclear weapons and yet want to join NATO which relies on the UK's nuclear weapons as a deterrent for many NATO allies across Europe, it's hard to express how self indulgent and untrustworthy Scotland looks these days, I'm aware Westminister isn't much better, but people expect more from 'peaceful old Scotland'..
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Another flag has been created by "The UK's leading flag experts" and to be honest I like this flag and would happily have it changed to this if Scotland left, I actually now believe Scotland doesn't even deserve to be in the UK with it's recent attitude, I know if they vote to stay it will mean that they do deserve to stay (or atleast those who voted no) but the SNP has now completely divided Scotland and stirred up alot of 300 year old hate towards the English, in my eyes there will 100% be another independence referendum within the next 30 years in which, of course they will vote yes, unless the UK's govt stops being so London-centric and blind to the ongoings outside of London.
But hey this flag is nice:
(http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4210512.ece/alternates/s1227b/New-Union-Flag.jpg)
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(http://i4.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article4210512.ece/alternates/s1227b/New-Union-Flag.jpg)
Why the hell did they put black color?
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Why the hell did they put black color?
Colour* :)
Well because it's the blue from the Scottish flag that makes the blue in the British flag, if Scotland gets independence they essentially remove their colours, although the UK can just keep the flag as it is today because the current colours are part of the UK's history.
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Colour* :)
Well because it's the blue from the Scottish flag that makes the blue in the British flag, if Scotland gets independence they essentially remove their colours, although the UK can just keep the flag as it is today because the current colours are part of the UK's history.
They should make it white.
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They should make it white.
White looks stupid and would kind of make the English flag drown out the Northern Irish flag, they could make the background green (using the green from the Welsh flag) but that might look a bit odd. :P
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Mikal, I love how your biggest concern is how the new flag is going to look.
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Mikal, I love how your biggest concern is how the new flag is going to look.
That is a very important thing. Indeed, is probably a reason why some people would vote "No".
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Whilst I have no side, this is pretty funny, apparently if Scotland does leave the UK, Australia would be left without a head of state, whilst Australia hasn't defined it's head of state technically it's the Queen, a University Professor says "there would no longer be any sovereignty of the United Kingdom on which Australia could draw for its own head of state". Even if the Queen is invited to be the monarch of Scotland. Some pretty funny crap affecting us xD.
If you don't understand, maybe this will help you. :)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-26/scotland-referendum-could-leave-australia-without-head-of-state/5696770
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Mikal, I love how your biggest concern is how the new flag is going to look.
Though I don't want Scotland to leave the UK, the UK would continue just fine without them, and so the most important issue to me is wether the worlds most recognisable flag would be changed. :gand:
Whilst I have no side, this is pretty funny, apparently if Scotland does leave the UK, Australia would be left without a head of state, whilst Australia hasn't defined it's head of state technically it's the Queen, a University Professor says "there would no longer be any sovereignty of the United Kingdom on which Australia could draw for its own head of state". Even if the Queen is invited to be the monarch of Scotland. Some pretty funny crap affecting us xD.
If you don't understand, maybe this will help you. :)
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-08-26/scotland-referendum-could-leave-australia-without-head-of-state/5696770
It's a load of BS, Scotland will be keeping the queen as head of state just as most other ex-British colonies have, the current monarchy was once 2 monarchy's of England and Scotland, I think it was a English monarch who married a Scottish monarch, making them 1 single monarchy, not 100% sure, either way the queen can stay head of state of Australia without any negative implications, that is if Scotland wants her to stay as it. :)
(http://i.imgur.com/IMHXiuR.png)
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-29213418
Wait right until the f**king end guys, let's hope it isn't too late.
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I have always known you were a huge British patriot, Mikal, but what you are saying in this topic is only making yourself look bad. What happens to the flag is not going to effect anything - the fact that it has never been mentioned once only highlights that. It also seems like you are looking at this referendum from one side and don't have the time or effort to look at the Yes campaign's arguments. If that's the case then you shouldn't be commenting.
Besides, it's not like Scotland will really be independent if they vote 'Yes', they will be part of the abomination that is the EU, they want to keep the queen as head of state, and want to create a 'Sterling Zone' with the UK (which the UK will refuse), maybe Scottish people should wake up and see that for once and only once Westminister is offering them the best of both worlds if they vote no, they have the choice to remain part of a strong United Kingdom with major global influence and control most of their own Government which is what they wanted years ago, yes the Govt should have devolved more powers back then but what exactly do they think they are going to get if they vote 'Yes'? They want to get rid of the UK's nuclear submarine base, meaning they will be banished from joining NATO, they want to re-join the EU, meaning the EU will have alot more control in Scotland's affairs than they currently do whilst Scotland is part of the anti-EU but still EU-UK, they will be inheriting a large amount of the UK's debt and will have to reform many major government departments, the main one being the military which is not cheap at all, they seem to think they can rely 100% on North Sea oil, well wake up, North Oil has been drilled for years and is running out, I guess it doesn't matter though, Salmond has gotten to everyone's heads up north, good luck getting those giant jobless numbers down without the UK, infact it'll just go up.
There are many options for currency - having a currency union is best for both an independent Scotland and the UK. If there is a currency union then Scotland will be entitled to take on their share of the UK's debt - the amount of debt will have to be negotiated. Information from the last televised debate states that if there isn't a currency union then Scotland does not have to take on any debt, which is why it's in the best interest for the UK to have a currency union with Scotland (do not quote me on this, I'm only relaying what was mentioned in the debate - go watch it).
Regarding the control of the Scottish Government, the No campaign were unable to list specific powers that the government would have in the event of a No vote. All that has been said is that the Scottish Government will have more power, but what power is not known. Also on a side note, if you look at the government elections with and without the Scottish votes, the result is the same. In an independant Scotland, the people of Scotland will have a government that they vote for.
Relying 100% on oil has never been the case, so I am not sure where you got your facts from. Oil will be the main source of money (estimated £1.5 trillion), but there are others.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/855/6wg6.jpg)
There is, however, a lot of uncertainty about an independent Scotland that the Yes campaign are unable to answer. One, for example, is regarding the removal of trident. The jobs that will be lost because of this is not seen as an issue by the Yes campaign - they are saying it will allow for more oil and gas extraction, which, in my opinion, is not a good enough reason. The specially trained people who will be losing their jobs will have no other similar areas to work within Scotland unless they re-train or re-locate into the UK, which will reduce Scotland's small population even further. There are many other unanswered questions.
If you want to take part in discussions regarding Scotland's future then I suggest you get involved with the debates and keep up to date with the news and events.
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I have always known you were a huge British patriot, Mikal, but what you are saying in this topic is only making yourself look bad. What happens to the flag is not going to effect anything - the fact that it has never been mentioned once only highlights that. It also seems like you are looking at this referendum from one side and don't have the time or effort to look at the Yes campaign's arguments. If that's the case then you shouldn't be commenting.
The flag has actually been brought up a few times by the BBC, only recently they said it would remain the same if Scotland kept the queen as head of state, and before you mention the BBC I do disagree with that recent miss-reporting by Nick Robinson, though in reality Salmond as usual did not answer the actual questions asked and so in effect he had the right to say that he didn't reply, but Nick Robinson still just should not have reported anything.
There are many options for currency - having a currency union is best for both an independent Scotland and the UK. If there is a currency union then Scotland will be entitled to take on their share of the UK's debt - the amount of debt will have to be negotiated. Information from the last televised debate states that if there isn't a currency union then Scotland does not have to take on any debt, which is why it's in the best interest for the UK to have a currency union with Scotland (do not quote me on this, I'm only relaying what was mentioned in the debate - go watch it).
I've watched Salmond's speeches a few times, he brings up a FEW good points, but overall, all I hear him say is:
The oil companies are lying.
The supermarkets are lying
The Bank of England is lying.
The EU is lying.
Westminister is lying.
Westminister are bullies.
Do you not see the pattern? He has no valid argument as to what currency Scotland will use and seems to say/think that Westminister will 100% not block a currency union, but do you really think Westminister is going to risk another big embarrassment if Scotland gets independence by giving them the currency union that they said they WILL NOT create on media all over the world? Wether or not it would be best for both sides, they will not do it.
Regarding the control of the Scottish Government, the No campaign were unable to list specific powers that the government would have in the event of a No vote. All that has been said is that the Scottish Government will have more power, but what power is not known. Also on a side note, if you look at the government elections with and without the Scottish votes, the result is the same. In an independant Scotland, the people of Scotland will have a government that they vote for.
Salmond has constantly said that Westminister is going to destroy Scotland's NHS, he has said they will not devolve any powers regarding monetary issues, and yet most Scot's INCLUDING YOU(?) don't seem to know or realise that the Scottish NHS is already fully devolved, and that Salmond actually can control tax rise/decrease by 3%, more than enough to implicate a see-able change, but you don't know that, and Salmond has never dropped your tax rates by even 1%, has he? Why? Well, because he and every other politician ARE EXACTLY THE SAME as those in Westminister, all you're going to get with independence is a Scottish Westminister ruled by the European Union, just like Ireland.
Relying 100% on oil has never been the case, so I am not sure where you got your facts from. Oil will be the main source of money (estimated £1.5 trillion), but there are others.
Oh thats funny, sure I recall the company that actually drills for it stating that there may only be up to 10-15 years of oil left, not enough to sustain a Scottish economy for the rest of it's life and not instantly enough to cover the costs of independence, and are you really willing to gamble Scotland's future on estimates? Atleast if Scotland stays with the UK you can always have another independence referendum in the future, where as if Scotland leave's there is actually no returning to the union if things don't turn out as planned, well uh not planned in the SNP's case, dreamed of is the word I'm searching for.
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/xq90/855/6wg6.jpg)
I'm sure an independent England could make the same picture just they'd show up as alot richer with a much bigger GDP than Scotland, now remember I'm Welsh, but England is the biggest contributor to the United Kingdom and that's a fact, they put into the Welsh, Scottish and N.Irish economies despite what the SNP may say, we literally are all "Better off together", do remember than much of Scotland's exports go into the rest of the UK.
The fact is, England is the one that should be seeking independence from from the union, not the other way round.
There is, however, a lot of uncertainty about an independent Scotland that the Yes campaign are unable to answer. One, for example, is regarding the removal of trident. The jobs that will be lost because of this is not seen as an issue by the Yes campaign - they are saying it will allow for more oil and gas extraction, which, in my opinion, is not a good enough reason. The specially trained people who will be losing their jobs will have no other similar areas to work within Scotland unless they re-train or re-locate into the UK, which will reduce Scotland's small population even further. There are many other unanswered questions.
If trident was forced to be removed from the Clyde by a Scottish government NATO would deny any attempt for them to become a member, as they have already said, the UK's nuclear deterrent based in Scotland is a deterrent for NATO countries across Europe, not just the UK and is one of the things that makes NATO so powerful, if Scotland gets independence the first thing they will do is seek EU/NATO membership, if told they have to keep trident what do you think they are going to do? I think the Scottish Govt would say "Oh ok, no problem" and join, because right now all trident is, is a bargaining tool for the SNP to get large majorities of hippies, and other people to back a yes vote.
The jobs lost will be in the thousands, Scotland (or the SNP) constantly moan about the UK's large military spending and yet it's EXACTLY THAT, that creates thousands of jobs in Scotland, maintaining the UK's nuclear capabilities and building two giant aircraft carriers bigger than some of those in the USA's naval fleet doesn't take just a couple of people, it takes thousands, and do you honestly think the UK is going to continue using Scottish ship yards to build it's naval fleet after independence? And I won't just stop at the military either as they are not the only ones employing thousands of people in Scotland, it's also oil giants like BP registered in the UK, and I'm sure many other giant to small businesses aswell.
As for the SNP's claim of more oil extraction after independence, that's probably a load of rubbish, I'd bet £100 that there's some EU regulation as to how much oil can be extracted and where, otherwise the UK would already be drilling for more would they not?
If you want to take part in discussions regarding Scotland's future then I suggest you get involved with the debates and keep up to date with the news and events.
As the extreme UK patriot that I am, do you honestly think I don't do that? Especially after this post which you may or may not call all bullshit?
And finally, the SNP has done a fantastic job at stirring up 300 year old hate between the Scottish and English along with dividing Scotland's people 50/50 into nationalists and unionists, great job Mr Salmond, you better hope that Scotland doesn't turn into a North and South Korea relationship (of sorts) after your games are over, so called independence or not, I've watched videos of 'Yes' voters shouting down and even egging 'No' supporters on the streets, Salmond claims that it's the unionists and Westminister that are bullies, yet 'No' voters are literally getting afraid to speak out on the streets because of the aggressiveness shown by Scottish ultra-nationalists, and who's the one that can stop such attitudes? Salmond, will he? No, because it's the aggressiveness of some in Scotland that has helped the 'Yes' campaign jump up in the polls, and do note, nothing I've said here (apart from about the Union Jack and Robinson) is based on anything said or reported by the BBC, and if it matters about 100 years ago my family was Scottish (now Welsh), and my last name still is.
Yes the UK is currently London-centric and yes the UK should have devolved more powers to Scotland years ago, but does Scotland really think running away from the 300 year old union which in fact, was pretty much created by Scotland, is going to solve it's problems? In my eyes it will just make more of them, maybe this will be a wake up call to the UK Govt if Scotland votes to stay, because if they don't change without a doubt the next independence vote will be a Yes to leave the union, and all that Scotland will be then is:
(http://i.imgur.com/fgkpkM6.png)
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Nope
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Scotland votes No.
/thread
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A nation at ease. Scotland has made the right decision.
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Good, now the nerves are gone. Scotland have done the right thing.
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Salmond says 'No' voters were "tricked" into voting by a last minute pledge of more powers.