Argonath RPG - A World of its own

GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: Klajdi.. on April 28, 2015, 07:06:11 pm

Title: Gang wars!
Post by: Klajdi.. on April 28, 2015, 07:06:11 pm: Greetings.

Seeing how wars are taking place in the server, I'm creating this topic to give my own opinion. Alright, let's say there is a war going on, and one of the families has already won. After a couple of minutes, players log in game one by one(called by their friends in skype, fb etc) to support the loosing family. Those who just got invited, go and shoot directly towards the members of the winning family, without saying a single word. And not only, but there are also moderators who keep a side and punish the other family unfairly. After that, they aren't able to give explanations.

Quote
Players log in game one by one(called by their friends on skype, fb etc) to support loosing family.
Afterwards, the war keeps going for hours and hours, clearly DM.

Now, where are the dead people? They are spectators of the DM going on. And admins don't give a f**k. Or they act like they don't know the situation. Of course, admins take their side and support it until the end.
The problem is... Nobody wants to accept the loss. And this causes the whole mess. A big mess.

This must run down, since this is a RP server, not a DM one. Maybe a new rule about this mess.

*Inspired by the today incidents... And I don't want to mention any name, I'm speaking in general*

Thank you.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Kostas on April 28, 2015, 07:09:30 pm: So what you are suggesting is? That once a fight is over, it's over? Why did the fight start though? What makes you think that the start of the fight was legit in the first place? Note that I wasn't there. And even though you are not saying any names, we all understand who you are talking about. And about what two sides you are referring to...
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Khm on April 28, 2015, 07:14:50 pm: Yes, gang wars are ridiculously increasing with no end leading to people run without getting punished and others whom get unfairly punished so this is what I suggest for such situations;
Decrease the amount of weapons that a player can hold while playing.
Increase the prices of the weapons and bullets.
Make some kind of campaign to teach all family leaders on how wars should be done.
Disallow any group known for their disruptive actions in-game to make a war or get into a heated relation with another family as a lot of families get their hatred too personal.
OR
Make for each player some kind of "leveling up" that is based with how much the person played on the server and how many punishments did he get and how hard are they during a period of time, to get some sort of advantages (such as having scripted gang wars, joining scripted robberies, joining scripted kidnaps, holding limited weapons etc...).
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Stivi on April 28, 2015, 07:17:51 pm: /report if it's DM.

Moaning here won't help, at all.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Klajdi.. on April 28, 2015, 07:19:39 pm: Quote from: L2DuelistKing on April 28, 2015, 07:09:30 pm
So what you are suggesting is? That once a fight is over, it's over? Why did the fight start though? What makes you think that the start of the fight was legit in the first place? Note that I wasn't there. And even though you are not saying any names, we all understand who you are talking about. And about what two sides you are referring to...

All what I'm suggesting is to stop the DM fests happening every day in the server. This is RP server, so RP on it. Don't just think to DM like mad.
And if you understand who I'm talking about, you should also know the two sides I'm referring to. :)
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Whiteman on April 28, 2015, 07:30:55 pm: Simple solution, led by LBM example: "Roleplay" - it has wonderful qualities which avoids DM or a single bullet shot. Organise a brawl with bats or something. Hah.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Khm on April 28, 2015, 07:38:04 pm: Quote from: Whiteman on April 28, 2015, 07:30:55 pm
Simple solution, led by LBM example: "Roleplay" - it has wonderful qualities which avoids DM or a single bullet shot. Organise a brawl with bats or something. Hah.
Impossible with the random groups.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Dennis. on April 28, 2015, 07:44:51 pm: Lol Marco, if someone/family kill you, call all your friends to dm them one by one couse "they killed you". Enough to do not be called DM.

Fuck logic, RP something overall....

I somehow support Marco, to add a rule for players who join server after the war/shootout and dm(hunt - with the reason above "....") all alive enemies.
@Devin What you think?
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Whiteman on April 28, 2015, 07:45:43 pm: Well that should be the servers' one of the goals. Let me put it out there how an awesome shootout should work: (still both groups needs to be on the same level and understand.)

There can be just drive-by's where you drive through the enemy area briefly, not stopping. The point is not to kill, but to show yourself, frighten your enemy.

You can also grab vehicles, arrive at the enemy territory, block their way off, stand behind the vehicles, using it as cover. The other side should do the same and shoot at eachother. This sort of shootout can go on for as long as each side has bullets. No-one has to die, then just escape.

Then there's brawls like mentioned before, use knives, bats whatever. Bats are useful to destroy enemy vehicles, you can also RP setting a house on fire. Let your imagination fly, both sides though are indeed required to come with the idea of the scenario.

There are multiple ways to deal with your enemies then to pull a combat from your ass, shoot the shit out of eachother, run around the premises like crazy people, chasing eachother down. Use imagination, think how could you weaken/threaten your enemy in other ways then just plain shooting.

But I got to agree here with some of the statements. Not every group on Argonath is capable of roleplaying a realistic situation with true fear or logical actions based on the roleplay they're in.

Long Beach Mob out, come to our event on Sunday, it'll be fun as hell! CLUB 55 (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=99352.0)
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Kostas on April 28, 2015, 07:51:04 pm: So the idea basically is. When one sides has more people and attacks the other side, the other side has no right to retaliate with more people that could log in shortly afterwards? I would suggest not starting a fight in the first place if you can't live with its consequences. Yes the other side will prepare and retaliate for its lost comrades. You do that to. Stop starting fights, simple as that.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Dennis. on April 28, 2015, 07:56:57 pm: He means that after the war, not before it. At least I understood it so...
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: psyron on April 28, 2015, 07:57:05 pm: this will all be sorted when both the sides have a sense of cooperation in regards to RPing. DM will stop when people stop taking things seriously and actually realize its just a game.

problem arises when ego clashes. eliminate the ego, feel the togetherness as a community and not get divided into groups.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Stivi on April 28, 2015, 08:01:39 pm: Devin already made his point clear on another topic...

This is just moaning to me.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Dennis. on April 28, 2015, 08:07:02 pm: I think my suggestion will help to reduce "DMs".
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Kostas on April 28, 2015, 08:13:51 pm: Well, I only see two people defending a single side because as I understood, they were the side that got a strong attack in response to their victorious attack. Fact is, that as soon as the start is made, limiting the responses won't have any proper outcome. I believe that Devin did indeed add a rule that takes away many of the "launching attacks". The question is. Do we all follow that rule?
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Archie on April 28, 2015, 08:18:18 pm: When somebody is under attack (or dead in-game), he is actually hospitalized not dead. That's the difference.

But if someone's RP character is dead, he cannot be hospitalized and he needs to create a new RP character in order to play again.

The thing that is; when you kill someone in-game, he gets hospitalized so that he will likely try to kill you for a revenge and that is particularly death-matching which is not allowed.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Leon. on April 28, 2015, 09:13:52 pm: Since it's convenient here, let's compare this to RL. If you killed a gang/mafia member in real life, and they know who did it, do you expect them to not launch a retaliation?
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Tiny on April 28, 2015, 10:03:33 pm: It's funny how people from families that are involved in this war thing are asking a rule to stop them. I've said this million times and it's disappointing to see there's no change at all, Argonath has given you all this freedom so you can be creative, don't force HQ to add lines and rules to limit actions, you can have shitloads of fun unless the only intention you have is to kill the other side.

I know how it is to feel that you want to kill the one who killed your friend or family member, but don't forget that it's a damn game and you are here to have fun while doing these roleplays, don't use roleplay just to be able to kill without problems with the administration.

I miss the old wars, both sides were so fine with them that administration didn't even need to be involved. Now, it's kill -> report -> moaning again and again.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: wweman14 on April 28, 2015, 10:57:50 pm: Here's what I suggest.

Two different kinds of war.

PK War: Both groups agree to a PK war, and they make a roster of both sides, and of who is dead/alive. When someone dies from either side, their death is marked, and they can't participate in the war until it is over. Once the war is over, a 48 hour cooldown is to be administered to allow the groups to regain themselves and allow them to RP.

Long Term War: Both groups agree to this, it is kinda like what is going on currently, but heres how it goes. Both factions agree to a LTW, they shoot it out, and after an attack happens, there is a 24 hour cooldown, making it so that both groups can only attack ONCE a day, giving groups time to plan strategies that are most efficient to eliminate the other side. This continues till either side surrenders or both come to terms of peace.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Kostas on April 28, 2015, 11:07:36 pm: Why force something? Wanna know a fact? Both sides like it. If they didn't like it, they would have manned up, and asked for a truce. Like we did a few months ago. Do not add rules to fights. Devin's rule is more than enough.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Antonio. on April 28, 2015, 11:32:56 pm: Loving the hypocrisy of this topic. If you have any rulebreaks of players, groups etc., you are free to contact the appropriate person about it. Other than that, I'm sure the HQ will inform the community of these problems and take action on those involved like they recently have done regarding gang wars. That is of course if these problems are actually occurring.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Marco on April 28, 2015, 11:40:47 pm: Here (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=87674.0) and here (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=83643.0) you have present exquisite repositories of discussions concerning this topic. Reading both of them whole doesn't take too much time and.. well, it's a pretty good read, for both new players and the "so called veterans"; the quote "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it" Misquoted/fixed ;d comes to mind.

From what I've read, I can see that the problems from 2-3 years ago are pretty much the same; just exchange "gang" with "family/group" when necessary. What's lacking every time is the lack of imagination to create good (hell, won't even go with "great" because the way things are, something that goes beyond a "simple" roleplay that isn't "Oh, you killed me/my [friend/gang or family member/associate/enemy that I killed enough times that we agreed to stop for a while] and now we're here to throw a few insults/threats around to heat things up so admins wont punish us.. and well, kill you" is becoming rarer and rarer from my short experience around) roleplaying scenarios where a small part of the whole story is the shootout between the two rival groups, if it's even needed (since the penalty for dying is pretty much null and it's not unlikely that a revenge DMing cycle turns up). There's a reason why killing people IRL is efficient, they don't come back; this, however, is Argonath, and killing doesn't have that much of an impact (unless to the wallet sometimes :lol:).

I think the main point.. is that, to make a point there's no need to kill people; Whiteman's offered plenty of alternatives that are capable of creating great roleplaying scenarios while at the same time being fun. If killing's needed, IMO do something organized (like what's been discussed over the topics I cited). It'll make a better overall experience and cause less of a headache. If you feel like organizing a quick RP to justify a sort of "TDM" to vent, either from IRL or an IG event.. just hit up your foes, your friends and head for Paruni!
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: jannik852 on April 29, 2015, 12:50:55 am: Quote from: Tiny on April 28, 2015, 10:03:33 pm

I miss the old wars, both sides were so fine with them that administration didn't even need to be involved. Now, it's kill -> report -> moaning again and again.
When you could do executions with roleplaying :janek:
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Cofiliano on April 29, 2015, 07:44:47 am: Quote from: Dennis. on April 28, 2015, 08:07:02 pm
I think my suggestion will help to reduce "DMs".
No it wont, it will just make it worst actually. And I know why you're suggesting such a non sense, pure subjective reasons. Admins got headache over who died or not already, tracking time place etc, is just gonna get burn effect with admins being powerless to check if all is legit, which leaves many free space for all sorts of abuses. Not to mention the second part where dead people suddenly become alive, yeah that ain't gonna work, even if it would possible in theory that would just then become a constant massive DM.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Adam on April 29, 2015, 01:22:45 pm: Quote from: wweman14 on April 28, 2015, 10:57:50 pm
Here's what I suggest.

Two different kinds of war.

PK War: Both groups agree to a PK war, and they make a roster of both sides, and of who is dead/alive. When someone dies from either side, their death is marked, and they can't participate in the war until it is over. Once the war is over, a 48 hour cooldown is to be administered to allow the groups to regain themselves and allow them to RP.

Long Term War: Both groups agree to this, it is kinda like what is going on currently, but heres how it goes. Both factions agree to a LTW, they shoot it out, and after an attack happens, there is a 24 hour cooldown, making it so that both groups can only attack ONCE a day, giving groups time to plan strategies that are most efficient to eliminate the other side. This continues till either side surrenders or both come to terms of peace.

There is no any 'cooldown' in gang wars.
Once someone is dead in a war which must be for a very strong reason, he is not allowed to create nonsense reasons to kill and continue the war.
Or coming the next day saying 'We're in war' or 'His family member attacked us, he should die' are just bullshit reasons and it is mass deathmatch.
If you want another war you need a strong reason too. What is happening daily is based on unreasonable reasons.

The problem here is every group think they win if they kill the other side, which is completely wrong.
The groups themselves should change what they are doing, and be creative with their role-play.

Review and read these, they'll help.
Topic1 (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=111398.0)
Topic2 (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=87674.0)
Topic3 (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=83643.0)
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Ivan_MC on April 29, 2015, 01:47:08 pm: Quote from: Adam on April 29, 2015, 01:22:45 pm

The groups themselves should change what they are doing, and be creative with their role-play.

Aight here is an exemple for this sentence:
We are grouping all together and going after one cool "kiddnap" RP. We are going to the target, taking him in a RP way and going to some random location to do some cool RP that we have in mind. Suddenly there are like 10players that are all friends of the guy beeing kiddnaped rushing towards our /area ( ofcourse while the guy beeing kiddnaped we frisk the guy taking all his assets that he have on him), and when they arrive of cours guns out no RP no shit BANG BANG, mass DM. How the the fuck you expect creativity in the role-play when this ALWAYS occurres?
And don't tell me now why you have to do that kind of RP bla bla, we are criminal family that is what we do along with all the other things we are doing.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Marcel on April 29, 2015, 03:42:59 pm: Quote from: Ivan_MC on April 29, 2015, 01:47:08 pm
Aight here is an exemple for this sentence:
We are grouping all together and going after one cool "kiddnap" RP. We are going to the target, taking him in a RP way and going to some random location to do some cool RP that we have in mind. Suddenly there are like 10players that are all friends of the guy beeing kiddnaped rushing towards our /area ( ofcourse while the guy beeing kiddnaped we frisk the guy taking all his assets that he have on him), and when they arrive of cours guns out no RP no shit BANG BANG, mass DM. How the the fuck you expect creativity in the role-play when this ALWAYS occurres?
And don't tell me now why you have to do that kind of RP bla bla, we are criminal family that is what we do along with all the other things we are doing.
Simple: you report the attackers for deathmatching, as they could not know where you were with their friend and as such, had no roleplay reason to attack you.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Ivan_MC on April 29, 2015, 03:56:16 pm: Quote from: DHR.Marcel on April 29, 2015, 03:42:59 pm
Simple: you report the attackers for deathmatching, as they could not know where you were with their friend and as such, had no roleplay reason to attack you.
It's not that simple as you think...
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Marcel on April 29, 2015, 04:05:18 pm: Quote from: Ivan_MC on April 29, 2015, 03:56:16 pm
It's not that simple as you think...
It is! All you need to do is open the chat input by pressing "T", type /report [playerid] [reason] and you're done! Very simple.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Ivan_MC on April 29, 2015, 04:09:27 pm: Quote from: DHR.Marcel on April 29, 2015, 04:05:18 pm
It is! All you need to do is open the chat input by pressing "T", type /report [playerid] [reason] and you're done! Very simple.
No shit ?
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Frank_Hawk on April 29, 2015, 04:53:00 pm: This is GTA:SA.

1) If you choose a career in crime, expect to die and respawn
2) If you don't want to die, consider a legal career

Admins should not have any influence over the strategic hierarchical direction of criminal organisations. It is at the discretion of criminal groups to decide when to invoke violence to make their point as long as they are within the boundaries of the rules.

To support this, make the rules and definition of those rules visible.

Keep admins out of RP.
Title: Re: Gang wars!
Post by: Pandalink on April 29, 2015, 07:48:56 pm: I don't think anyone had a huge problem with my gang war system, except for the inherent need for my active involvement since I made a desktop app fed (by hand) from the forum rather than something fancier and automated. It even had approval from HQ at the time.

One group declares their intent to go to war with another. If the declaration is reciprocated, the hounds are loose and anything goes - it's left to the two groups to work out what's "okay" for them. Using /report DM against a member of the other group is a no go since it's allowed.
If the other group does not reciprocate, nothing changes. The two groups may not engage in a war.
If one group pulls out of the arrangement, after maybe 24 hours (enough time for anyone to check and find out) the war is called off and you return to normal.

If this were done elegantly, probably with some kind of web panel, then it could work. It does however rely on an understanding across the entire admin team that this is how it works, and that they have an easy way to quickly look up if a fight is valid. It needs full support from literally everyone to work. It requires groups that are at war to communicate with each other over what goes, and if a personal rule is broken it requires the group leaders to handle it.

It's one end of the spectrum between structured, documented wars and free RP (that is, no system at all). The latter is theoretically better but some groups are liable to abuse /report when they lose, and it raises a lot of issues over what constitutes a "fair" war and obviously different admins will have different opinions on what counts as DM. There's no particularly "best" way to do it, some people will like the structure and others will not. It does add another responsibility for admins, although in theory also makes these reports easier to judge.

Or instead of all that, maybe people just shouldn't be such sore losers and grow up a bit, but I guess that's asking a lot. :rolleyes: