Argonath RPG - A World of its own
Argonath RPG Community => Speakerbox => Topic started by: Ben. on June 09, 2016, 12:02:23 am
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So yeah, let's talk about it. I'd like to hear from the guys who think the Argonath Vision is outdated, with reasons for this as well as which bit they are specifically talking about.
And for those who have only heard about it second-hand, please see it quoted below.
I'll start off by saying I don't think it is outdated - In fact, it's a really nice set of principles to keep peace and harmony in the community!
Argonath RPG was founded in 2006 with a clear target.
The founders were upset with the community they left because of how people treated each other, and how there was a lack of recognition from the administration for the efforts of new players and those who were not in the favour of leaders.
There for it was decided to create a new community that would be open to all people, and where new players were treated same as regulars and veterans. With a new community this was not a problem, as everyone was new and the only veterans were the main leaders.
With the growth of the community over the years, there have been a number of players who do not know about the origins of our community, and the goals that were set when creating it. As a result, there has been a clash between people who feel that they are entitled because of being regulars and the goals and ideas of the owners and developers.
To clarify this, we present our vision.
1. Argonath was, is, and will always be a community that should be friendly to new people. We will continue to be a breeding ground for new people to discover the fun of playing by imagination. This is what has brought us official status and creates a regular flow of new players in to our server, keeping the community alive and feeding it.
2. Argonath gives equal rights to new, experienced and admin players. We do not discriminate between players, and having admin rights or being a long time player does not give any of our players rights to act as better, higher or having more status as another.
3. Argonath does not offer privileges against payment. The equal status prohibits any possibility of payment for extra possibilities, rights or money in game.
4. Argonath strives to keep rules simple and understandable. Our community was created as free RP, based on imagination and creativity. We will not ever support it changing in to a jungle of rules that are impossible to understand, follow and adhere to. Our rules will remain the minimal needed to stop players who wish to disturb the fun in playing from doing so, not more and not less.
5. Argonath leaders will accept new rules and scripts only if they fit the vision. If any suggestion is limiting the possibility to play for new players, strives to give advantage to more experienced players, or creates a more complex rule that would make it hard to understand or follow, it will be rejected, regardless of how much support there is from the community
6. Argonath players are, regardless of point 5, free to implement within their group or play guidelines and habits of playing. However they are not allowed to force people outside their group to use the same rules, resort to flaming, insulting, or trying to excluse players who do not play by non-official group rules.
7. Argonath administration team will devote their time primarily to keep players following the guidelines. They apply for this knowingly, and will be given rights and levels according to their devotion, ability to help out others and follow the guidelines given to them. Admin rights shall never be given as reward or to show status. Promotions in the admin team will be based on the perception of the developers and main admins, and shall not be given based on seniority. If at any time admins feel not able to continue their devotion to admin guidelines, they are invited to resign. Resigning from admin rights or losing them should not reflect on the players status or recognition as valuable member of the community.
8. Argonath recognizes that a part of the community is underage. There for the following shall be prohibited:
a. Swearing, flaming and insulting. Within roleplay this is allowed very limited and strictly bound to the situation. If there is any doubt about the slang/language used is for ropleplay only, administration has full right to take any measures they find necessary.
b. Promotion of usage of alcohol, drugs and other stimulating substances. We respect the freedom of choice, however people should be respecting that others who have different beliefs and choices have this right as well
c. Explicit sexual content. While within roleplay and discussion a certain freedom is granted, the underage community should be protected from eplicit sexual actions or content.
d. Cyberharrasment, stalking and bullying of players based on their belief, views, race or choices in life.
9. Argonath bases its community on respect and friendship between players of all nations. This means that those who feel that they are allowed to disrespect others, consider others as inferior or treat them as such will be offered the choice to either change their views or leave the community. This includes any groups of players in game.
10. Argonath will remain as open, friendly and strong community for people worldwide who wish to enjoy playing a game based on imagination and creativity.
I hope everyone will take the time to read this, and take this as their core values.
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This is our bible.
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This is our bible.
Amen :D
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Now to people who feel that what we stand for is outdated, think again. I think we should still believe in equality of players, equality of opportunities not depending on buying favours, and the main target not being winning but having fun and interacting with others. That is the core of the vision, and anyone who disagrees with that premise is invited to get the hell out of here.
nuff sed.
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One historical info (IIRC) lost to many in Argo is that our community itself is the product of the founders being fed up with a server where admins became kings and warlords free to abuse anyone with their power, and newer / younger players looked down upon.
So aside from the quote presently in my signature, I'd also like to leave another quote by Gandalf here:
I think we should still believe in equality of players, equality of opportunities not depending on buying favours, and the main target not being winning but having fun and interacting with others. This is the core of the vision, and anyone who disagrees with that premise is invited to get the hell out of here
The principles here aim to maintain a fun community that continues to bring together friends from across the globe and keep its leaders humble, while avoiding some other communities' tendencies to enforce jungles of rules (that people love to tie each other down with) and radical social division as official policy. (i.e. Admins vs Players, "Veterans" vs "Noobs", "GTFO noob we're RPing here go fuck yourself" instead of teaching him, etc)
In short, the message is simple: don't be a dick. Sadly, more and more seem not to get that.
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One historical info (IIRC) lost to many in Argo is that our community itself is the product of the founders being fed up with a server where admins became kings and warlords free to abuse anyone with their power, and newer / younger players looked down upon.
So aside from the quote presently in my signature, I'd also like to leave another quote by Gandalf here:
The principles here aim to maintain a fun community that continues to bring together friends from across the globe and keep its leaders humble, while avoiding some other communities' tendencies to enforce jungles of rules (that people love to tie each other down with) and radical social division as official policy. (i.e. Admins vs Players, "Veterans" vs "Noobs", "GTFO noob we're RPing here go fuck yourself" instead of teaching him, etc)
In short, the message is simple: don't be a dick. Sadly, more and more seem not to get that.
Amen :D
Amen to this instead.
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Amen to this instead.
Was my post not Amen-worthy? :(
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One historical info (IIRC) lost to many in Argo is that our community itself is the product of the founders being fed up with a server where admins became kings and warlords free to abuse anyone with their power, and newer / younger players looked down upon.
So aside from the quote presently in my signature, I'd also like to leave another quote by Gandalf here:
The principles here aim to maintain a fun community that continues to bring together friends from across the globe and keep its leaders humble, while avoiding some other communities' tendencies to enforce jungles of rules (that people love to tie each other down with) and radical social division as official policy. (i.e. Admins vs Players, "Veterans" vs "Noobs", "GTFO noob we're RPing here go fuck yourself" instead of teaching him, etc)
In short, the message is simple: don't be a dick. Sadly, more and more seem not to get that.
And in my opinion, 100% still applicable.
So.... Amen.
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There will ALWAYS be a contradiction between two types of people, the one who wants more out of everything such as turning Argonath into better place and the ones who are more of conservatives and wants to keep argonath as it is.
that contradiction is reflected in both HQ Team and players, for an example Gandalf is a conservative and Teddy is more for change.
Both type of people are right. but at the same time both are fatal, one kills the other.
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Well Google Custom Search is rubbish.
The point is to hear from those who say the vision is outdated - if you disagree with part of it, please quote that bit and share your reasons...
@Benn Where does the Vision say change is not allowed?
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#5?
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#5?
5. Argonath leaders will accept new rules and scripts only if they fit the vision. If any suggestion is limiting the possibility to play for new players, strives to give advantage to more experienced players, or creates a more complex rule that would make it hard to understand or follow, it will be rejected, regardless of how much support there is from the community
Right. The rule you're saying that you're saying means change isn't allowed, isn't disallowing change.
A couple of people seem to have read the name of this topic and replied, without even bothering to read the vision properly.
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Right. The rule you're saying that you're saying means change isn't allowed, isn't disallowing change.
Right. The sentence you're saying that you're saying means something I'm supposed to understand, isn't something I understand.
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Right. The sentence you're saying that you're saying means something I'm supposed to understand, isn't something I understand.
5. Argonath leaders will accept new rules and scripts only if they fit the vision. If any suggestion is limiting the possibility to play for new players, strives to give advantage to more experienced players, or creates a more complex rule that would make it hard to understand or follow, it will be rejected, regardless of how much support there is from the community
Let me make it easier for you to understand. Number 5 doesn't disallow change.
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Let me make it easier for you to understand. Number 5 doesn't disallow change.
See I have nothing against the vision, Gandalf pays the bills, he makes the decisions, it's pretty fair honestly. Hence the question mark. #5 states it's still in Gandalf's hands if something gets implemented or not, despite what the majority of the community thinks. And I think people disagree with that.
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@Ben.
All I did was talking about two type of people on the server ,Where did you see me saying the vision is against change?
What I mean is the changes that some people want to implement are drastic ones, such as turning all blips white.
the changes that the vision refers to are ... lets call them small changes to improve the server, simple changes.
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See I have nothing against the vision, Gandalf pays the bills, he makes the decisions, it's pretty fair honestly. Hence the question mark. #5 states it's still in Gandalf's hands if something gets implemented or not, despite what the majority of the community thinks. And I think people disagree with that.
Lets read this again.
Argonath leaders will accept new rules and scripts only if they fit the vision. If any suggestion is limiting the possibility to play for new players, strives to give advantage to more experienced players, or creates a more complex rule that would make it hard to understand or follow, it will be rejected, regardless of how much support there is from the community
Doesit say 'Gandalf'? Does it say 'owners'?
Nope. It says here 'leaders'. That includes in the worst case all of HQ but could just as well mean the leaders of a specific server.
So what is the reason behind this specific point? Very simple. We are open to change, and will always listen to what players ask. However just the fact that players ask something is by itself not enough to implement it. When looking at an idea, we have to think how it impats both existing and new players, can it be scripted, will it affect the running of the server, will it break any law.
This is why players can suggest a new rule, but can never demand one, as some seem to wish to be able to.
There will ALWAYS be a contradiction between two types of people, the one who wants more out of everything such as turning Argonath into better place and the ones who are more of conservatives and wants to keep argonath as it is.
that contradiction is reflected in both HQ Team and players, for an example Gandalf is a conservative and Teddy is more for change.
Both type of people are right. but at the same time both are fatal, one kills the other.
You may find the opposite is true in many cases.
I do not reject change, however I will not jump at the first possibility of change.
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Both type of people are right. but at the same time both are fatal, one kills the other.
On the contrary. Too many conservative people mean nothing moves. Too many people who promote change often disregard what it is important, or make unnecessary changes. You need them both in order to maintain balance.
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Lets read this again.Doesit say 'Gandalf'? Does it say 'owners'?
Nope. It says here 'leaders'. That includes in the worst case all of HQ but could just as well mean the leaders of a specific server.
So what is the reason behind this specific point? Very simple. We are open to change, and will always listen to what players ask. However just the fact that players ask something is by itself not enough to implement it. When looking at an idea, we have to think how it impats both existing and new players, can it be scripted, will it affect the running of the server, will it break any law.
This is why players can suggest a new rule, but can never demand one, as some seem to wish to be able to.
You may find the opposite is true in many cases.
I do not reject change, however I will not jump at the first possibility of change.
No it doesn't say Gandalf, it says leaders. And have the leaders not asked for removing blips? Just an example I don't really know what goes behind the scenes.
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No it doesn't say Gandalf, it says leaders. And have the leaders not asked for removing blips? Just an example I don't really know what goes behind the scenes.
Switch off the minimap.
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Switch off the minimap.
What if I need the minimap for navigation such as being able to locate what is North, West, South and East, but still don't want to see blips?
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Switch off the minimap.
You missed the point of the post, which you seem to have a bad habit of doing.
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Switch off the minimap.
What does Argonath gain from being the only RP server(heck, some DM/Freeroam/CnR servers disable their blips as well) that has blips enabled? Definitely not "uniqueness" since everyone wants this feature gone.
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@Ben.
All I did was talking about two type of people on the server ,Where did you see me saying the vision is against change?
What I mean is the changes that some people want to implement are drastic ones, such as turning all blips white.
the changes that the vision refers to are ... lets call them small changes to improve the server, simple changes.
Apologies, I didn't initially see the relevance to the vision and tried to draw a link.
I'd hate for this topic to be just people saying they want to wave goodbye to blips - If the vision is being talked about in a negative way when it comes to blips though, that's what I'd like to address.
As people, I'd hope you read the vision and understand what it achieves. Point 5 is around equality...as a new player, I was interested in player interaction (not even RP, to be honest). If I hadn't found anyone to annoy, I'd have left within 2 minutes.
So what you're actually asking for when you ask for blips to be removed is much more than that. You're asking for new players to feel more isolated when starting on Argonath, and you're also expecting them to search for people.
I think people forget the basis on which they join the Argonath community. About a week after I joined, I started reading stuff on the forum. I bought into the Argonath Vision then, and I feel the same way now.
New people are joining an existing community, with existing Owners and Leaders. The Owners created this community with a set of ideals, and I still don't understand how people think they have the right to demand changes - The principles haven't changed, and principles shouldn't change. Objectives may change but the aim/principles should be constant. Let's not forget Gandalf, Argonath's owner, is still here with us...I'm sorry, but as I see it the vision should remain as is.
People can request things, but those things have proven to only make us happy for a short time. Within a few days, the next thing comes up.
The vision isn't outdated (it isn't specific enough to even get outdated), it isn't wrong and it is there to give us what we need in the long term (to support and guide the community), not just in the short term.
We will crumble without a clear guiding hand.
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What does Argonath gain from being the only RP server(heck, some DM/Freeroam/CnR servers disable their blips as well) that has blips enabled? Definitely not "uniqueness" since everyone wants this feature gone.
Look at history (not at the overrepresented "hey let's make argo like eslarpee" segment of forum users) and you will see that we are a community where player interaction (and welcoming others) is more important than how "pure" a person thinks their RP is.
Perhaps also because the older generation of Argonath roleplayers, as a result of a lack of script features (i.e. earlier clients, with MTA:VC a big example), held creativity and imagination as the standard for RP, instead of the presence / absence of custom script features. If we were not able to get that new feature we wanted (in most cases because it was too advanced for the software), we still had each other and our best, most dangerous weapon: our brains. That is why we can RP regardless of if there are plenty or little features, and don't whine that having blips on the map "ruins our RP."
This also extends to interaction with new players, where a noob running into our RP scenario was an opportunity to teach and welcome a new member of the community, instead of spamming /report or saying "fuck off noob we're RPing here." Teaching others is the best way, instead of mandatory long-ass automated tutorials (like those on other servers) which others have also asked for in the past; we value the "human factor."
If you want to be serious about your RP, then you will find a way. But don't drag the rest of your server into your quest for purity. We are open to change, but the only definition of "change" is NOT "hey let's make Argonath just like every other RP server."
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5. Argonath leaders will accept new rules and scripts only if they fit the vision. If any suggestion is limiting the possibility to play for new players, strives to give advantage to more experienced players, or creates a more complex rule that would make it hard to understand or follow, it will be rejected, regardless of how much support there is from the community
I'm actually surprised people think this disallows change. The two messages in #5 are simple: "let's keep equal opportunity open for everyone" and "let's keep things easy to understand."
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I'm missing the entire point of this topic. What do you wish to achieve? If someone think that this is outdated they should be the ones creating the thread, or am I wrong?
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I'm missing the entire point of this topic. What do you wish to achieve? If someone think that this is outdated they should be the ones creating the thread, or am I wrong?
Whats wrong with discussing if it still up to date? They can discuss it and convince in this topic, else everybody else would have to make their own topic and that will cause a big mess.
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I'm missing the entire point of this topic. What do you wish to achieve? If someone think that this is outdated they should be the ones creating the thread, or am I wrong?
The thread was created to educate those who trample the vision and blame it for negative events in the server's past, to demonstrate that the vision is no way restrictive, or keeping Argonath " in the past" as has been claimed.
Merely a prompt for people to actually try reading the vision rather than following seemingly ignorant individuals who misinterpret the vision for their own benefit.