Argonath RPG - A World of its own

Argonath RPG Community => Forum and site ideas and information => Topic started by: TrotlDebilni on July 28, 2016, 11:59:07 am

Title: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: TrotlDebilni on July 28, 2016, 11:59:07 am
Do you remember how the old forums looked? I haven't been here since 2007 but I remember being so excited with my 0.5mbps internet connection going onto this forum to see the happy faces. The pages took 20 seconds to load, some times the forums crashed my internet, other times my whole computer because Firefox went insane trying to load this webpage.

And now, 7 years later, look how far we've come! My internet speed got 40 times faster! Oh.. but the other shit is still the same. The forum kills my internet if I have teamspeak, GTA and the forum running at once, it takes 20 seconds to open a page, the forum just randomly dies if there are more than 30 people on here, and oh does anyone remember how silly low frame rate low quality our emoticons are..  :bananav:  :jackson: them 2007 memes, yo'.

I mean just look at our sister communities, or even sub domains of our domain;
http://mtasa.argonathrpg.com/ (aight slow)
http://arpd.argonathrpg.com/forum/ (looks older but works better)
https://dawn-tdm.com/ (in-fucking-credible)
And even ..
http://paruni.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=nrn7t8168kseqqha40ihobpt57&action=forum
Paruni has a better fucking forum than we do.

It's been 10 years. 10 years of memories, 10 years of posts, 10 years of our life.. but at this point technology has advanced and our nostalgia is keeping us back, you want the old forum? Keep a backup, change this, the new members that want to arrive probably give up before the index page loads. Please.
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Julio. on July 28, 2016, 12:02:27 pm
General browsing doesn't seem too slow for me to be honest.

Certain actions are slow though (seeing old posts or viewing your own stats), and others crash the forum... if we could somehow back up the DB and import it into a fresh forum then perhaps it would be beneficial, but without knowing the exact cause of the slowdown, this could actually just replicate the problem on a fresh forum...
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Link9rly on July 28, 2016, 12:09:51 pm
If wiping a decade's worth of stuff makes the forums faster, I'm all up for it. No use in living in the past if it's slowing down the future.
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: SugarD on July 28, 2016, 03:36:12 pm
I offered a solution several times in different forms that could help fix this, but no one wants to bite. :(

(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb187/ms-sugard-x/mineversustheirs_zpsylqdwi1g.png~original)

versus

(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb187/ms-sugard-x/theirsversusmine_zpslxyfelbm.png~original)
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Stivi on July 28, 2016, 03:39:52 pm
Definitely agree. You can't use search anyway so why keep it? Keep track of my posts when I was Potenza? We need a new forum, maybe even a new landing page instead of the "Portal".
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: rid on July 28, 2016, 03:57:34 pm
You know something is very wrong when the forum often takes more time to load a single page in a 100Mbps/20Mbps connection than it takes for your computer to do a complete boot up.
Always hated browsing this forum for this reason.
Seems to have gotten better with time but it can still be a slow piece of garbage - when it comes to speed it seems to vary more than an emotionally confused woman on her period.
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Salmonella on July 28, 2016, 03:59:33 pm
I offered a solution several times in different forms that could help fix this, but no one wants to bite. :(

(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb187/ms-sugard-x/mineversustheirs_zpsylqdwi1g.png~original)

versus

(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb187/ms-sugard-x/theirsversusmine_zpslxyfelbm.png~original)

All up for this then, but I think we should never remove posts or topics for this.

Personally, I think we could go on another 20 years at this pace before it actually becomes unbearable.

It's not -that- bad.
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: SugarD on July 28, 2016, 04:22:13 pm
All up for this then, but I think we should never remove posts or topics for this.

Personally, I think we could go on another 20 years at this pace before it actually becomes unbearable.

It's not -that- bad.
Lately it has been better, but it is still pretty bad. Especially considering a large number of users from around the world don't have high-speed internet access.

This poor forum has been changed, updated, upgraded, abused, modified, hacked, bugged, broken, and reinstalled so many times over the years that it is well-beyond repair. Originally my idea included just copying over users, their data, and the posts to a new forum install, but the more and more complaints I hear, the more I am afraid that even that data may be corrupted now. If so, my second idea would be having Argo host the entire original forum in read-only mode on an archive subdomain, (like http://archive.argonathrpg.com/index.php?action=forum for example), and then users could still retrieve and access their old data from there, (as well as make references to it via links), and the new forum would reside where this one is now. That would also allow people to copy over their old posts that they want to keep.

Either way, I have a proof-of-concept of a forum remake already available and nearly done, (and it has been for years, but I keep modifying it to keep up with changes on the original). Unfortunately none of this is my call, though.
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Julio. on July 28, 2016, 04:26:00 pm
If so, my second idea would be having Argo host the entire original forum in read-only mode on an archive subdomain, (like http://archive.argonathrpg.com/index.php?action=forum for example), and then users could still retrieve and access their old data from there, (as well as make references to it via links), and the new forum would reside where this one is now. That would also allow people to copy over their old posts that they want to keep.

I like this idea... a lot.
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Marcel on July 28, 2016, 04:32:15 pm
Replace it with IPB while we're at it! The archive solution seems good Sugar:)
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: SugarD on July 28, 2016, 04:34:06 pm
Replace it with IPB while we're at it! The archive solution seems good Sugar:)
Eww IPB!

I wouldn't switch forum softwares. Especially to something you have to pay for.
Thanks lol
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Mr. Goobii on July 28, 2016, 04:36:45 pm
Agree pretty much, new forum would be nice. It either time out or is very slow to browse around with.

We can still keep this forum for legacy memories(open for public on a sub-domain or something!  :D
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Marcel on July 28, 2016, 04:37:38 pm
Eww IPB!

I wouldn't switch forum softwares. Especially to something you have to pay for.
Thanks lol
Got a spare license, so got that covered. IPB is insanely good.
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Julio. on July 28, 2016, 04:41:15 pm
One thing I'm not too sure on is how to possibly migrate active topics if that's the plan, I guess it can be done though with some clever DB trickery. I'm sure groups with open topics etc, member pics and such would be cool to keep on a new forum!
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Mr. Goobii on July 28, 2016, 04:44:55 pm
One thing I'm not too sure on is how to possibly migrate active topics if that's the plan, I guess it can be done though with some clever DB trickery. I'm sure groups with open topics etc, member pics and such would be cool to keep on a new forum!

Copy Pasta!  :lol:
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Fuzzy on July 28, 2016, 04:47:25 pm
The archive idea sounds very reasonable to me.
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: SugarD on July 28, 2016, 04:47:43 pm
We can still keep this forum for legacy memories(open for public on a sub-domain or something!  :D
Psst...

If so, my second idea would be having Argo host the entire original forum in read-only mode on an archive subdomain, (like http://archive.argonathrpg.com/index.php?action=forum for example), and then users could still retrieve and access their old data from there, (as well as make references to it via links), and the new forum would reside where this one is now. That would also allow people to copy over their old posts that they want to keep.

Got a spare license, so got that covered. IPB is insanely good.
I still wouldn't recommend it for our main community's forum. Argo has been using SMF for many years on nearly all of its forums, so you would be creating a mess of a learning curve for thousands of people that don't know how to use it. Also, getting newer versions for the sake of security and other updates would cost us further. If we were in the financial and user activity place we were say...5 years ago or so..., then I would also be less hesitant. You're talking about also creating new themes and essentially starting from scratch on designing the entire forum, (and not just creating it), as there would be many changes between the softwares to account for. Argo isn't exactly in a good position for something like this right now.

Don't get me wrong, IPB is a great software. I just don't use it personally because I don't prefer it, (and I like my stuff free hahaha).

Now say if you were talking about reopening Azellus and having a customer support forum in IPB, that may definitely be worth looking at... *cough* ;)

One thing I'm not too sure on is how to possibly migrate active topics if that's the plan, I guess it can be done though with some clever DB trickery. I'm sure groups with open topics etc, member pics and such would be cool to keep on a new forum!
Well there are a few options, but the easiest for most standard users would just be having the original poster recreate the first post, and link to the original topic on the archive so further replies could quote/discuss from that, unless they decided to continue on from the original post. (This may actually get rid of some of the off-topic discussions too, ironically).
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Mr. Goobii on July 28, 2016, 04:51:14 pm
Psst...

Didn't read your post, sorry! Glad we have same idea!  :D
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: SugarD on July 28, 2016, 04:51:53 pm
Didn't read your post, sorry! Glad we have same idea!  :D
No problem! :D

Edit: Not to brag, but...uhh:

(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb187/ms-sugard-x/argoforumremakeassassinnormal_zpszzdhgonf.png~original)
Assassin Theme

(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb187/ms-sugard-x/argoforumremakeassassinxmas_zpscwibaamd.png~original)
Assassin Theme (Changes automatically on Christmas Eve's day and Christmas Day itself)

(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb187/ms-sugard-x/argoforumremakeccnormal_zpsuipvphe3.png~original)
CC Theme

(http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb187/ms-sugard-x/argoforumremakeoldtimesnormal_zps4na5cbam.png~original)
Oldtimes Theme (The original SMF 1.x theme for Argo, remade from scratch)


I'm more than willing to put in the remaining work if it means the community will thrive. I just need the blessing of our White Wizard and his godly, watchful friend!
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Sauron on July 28, 2016, 05:35:38 pm
As usual people have no idea what they are talking about.
Just like a 500 slot server runs at great ping on a 2Gb RAM VPS when there is 1 user online and get hopelessly stuck when there are 30, forum software in influenced by a lot of things.
The database size itself is not really an issue, only with large searches it can cause some delay. While nobody searches the 200k posts, there is not really a problem.
However people who attack the servers also attack the forum. Mostly this is mitigated, just it will be noticeable in the speed.  And then there is the VPS on which the forum is running.
The provider is regularly updating their offers, meaning we regularly changed the VPS without anyone noticing. The current one has had a lot of issues, especially last year in the beginning. We made the provider move the VPS to a less overbooked root server, and that solved most but not all of the issues.

So what can we do to improve the speed?
1. Get a dedicated VPS for the Argonath websites. Currently they are shared with a number of my customers, meaning others pay for our website. By doing the same trick as with the game servers, which as worked great for them, we could separate the Argonath site and dedicate all needed resources exclusive to there. Would come at a cost though, as I can not raise prices for my customers instantly.
Positive would be that we could also fix an IP and run the website through HTTPS, a wish of Teddy and other security freaks.

2. Move the whole thing to another provider
We could take a VPS of about same price and size with another provider, problem would be it is a gamble as there is no guarantee it will work better

Anyway we will spend some time optimizing all things shortly, and a new design is in the works.
We will remain with the forum software we know and has served well for the last 12 years, it has millions of users and a good development team. Though future developments may change the way we operate the site.
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: SugarD on July 28, 2016, 05:43:54 pm
Sauron, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the host is bad, but this forum does have a lot of bugs in it from the years of changes and abuse by a large number of people. (Many of which were just installing mods and had no idea what they were doing). All I'm suggesting is a fresh start using what we already know and love. I'm sure the VPS can handle that just fine. The forum remake I created works just fine on a very cheesy VPS in comparison. I don't see why this current one couldn't handle the load of Argo Forums as it does now. (The host issues were resolved years ago anyway). These bugs themselves are still an issue though, which is where most of the complaints come from.

I'm not asking for a new host. I'm just asking for the forum software issues to be resolved. At the point these problems have reached, it wouldn't make sense to try and fix them one-by-one when we don't even know what causes half of them now. Why not redo things fresh the same way they are now? The new design you mentioned could easily be implemented into that too, making it even more efficient, as it would avoid these bugs that would no longer exist.
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Sauron on July 28, 2016, 05:56:59 pm
Sauron, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying the host is bad, but this forum does have a lot of bugs in it from the years of changes and abuse by a large number of people. (Many of which were just installing mods and had no idea what they were doing). All I'm suggesting is a fresh start using what we already know and love. I'm sure the VPS can handle that just fine. The forum remake I created works just fine on a very cheesy VPS in comparison. I don't see why this current one couldn't handle the load of Argo Forums as it does now. (The host issues were resolved years ago anyway). These bugs themselves are still an issue though, which is where most of the complaints come from.

I'm not asking for a new host. I'm just asking for the forum software issues to be resolved. At the point these problems have reached, it wouldn't make sense to try and fix them one-by-one when we don't even know what causes half of them now. Why not redo things fresh the same way they are now? The new design you mentioned could easily be implemented into that too, making it even more efficient, as it would avoid these bugs that would no longer exist.
The bugs are lone gone, because what you expect to be has been moved out of the way long time ago.
Every time we change VPS we build up the forum from a fresh install and add the packages in an order that is best for performance. If a piece of code cause specific errors it is changed and cleaned.
The one thing we could do is remove all unused tables and fields from the database, that might optimize it, as well as do a hard forced conversion to a better coding format. That would however first have to be tested as well as cause a rather long downtime.
So yeah, yo do no know what you are going on about.
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Julio. on July 28, 2016, 07:14:43 pm
Oh snap, Sauron has spoken  :D
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Hidduh on July 28, 2016, 07:35:11 pm
Replace it with IPB while we're at it! The archive solution seems good Sugar:)

Oh yes please!! IPB or XenForo :D
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: [NP]Monte Montague on July 29, 2016, 09:29:55 am
http://paruni.net/index.php?PHPSESSID=nrn7t8168kseqqha40ihobpt57&action=forum
Paruni has a better fucking forum than we do.

Just make sure you don't push the BUTTON when you are there...

(http://i.imgur.com/dayCkB4.png)

 :cowboy:
Title: Re: Spring cleaning that has been delayed by a decade.
Post by: Brian on August 03, 2016, 12:47:36 am
MrMe and I are looking in to a possible solution of freshing up the forum. Someting that should've been long done but I've been stopped from doing, MrMe offered to help me doing that so that'll be worked on shortly, and we'll look at multiple possible solutions.

This is from the software side, as wel as clean up old plugins and all that, this will be done on a copy of the current website so your day to day items will not be altered, until we transfer everything to the live environment.
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