Argonath RPG - A World of its own

GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: Thom on October 20, 2019, 07:54:49 pm

Title: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Thom on October 20, 2019, 07:54:49 pm: Hello,
Due to a recent event and past ones that I've witnessed or been involved, I'd like to remind the players of some things that are said in the rules and some unwritten stuff that should be common sense.

Staff is here to maintain a healthy enviroment within the server and making sure there is abidance with the rules. Mods+ have been given their position in staff cause they've proven themselves capable of handling the task, at least in the eyes of the HQ. That being said, it is also mentioned in the rules, we can't cover all possible scenarios with the rules that we've been given to go by. So an admin is entrusted with the duty to adjust to the situation and take the logical decision he deems fit. If that decision is in your opinion extreme or wrong no one is stopping you from reporting them. Which brings me to my point, a staff member advises/tells you something, you can discuss how you disagree with that in a civilised manner. But in daily handling of reports we're not here to critisize the righteousness or fairness of certain rules, we're here to make sure they're not broken.

Finally, the reason i've started this topic in the first place is:
1. A staff member tells you something you do is not allowed then it's not allowed. If you don't have obvious undeniable evidence(like an admin can't tell you DM is allowed and if he punishes you for it then he's in trouble),then at that exact moment only what the staff member tells you applies. if the admin is at fault you have the freedom and all the time in the world to report afterwards and he'll get what HQ decides for him.
2. Disrespecting new staff's or new ranks' knowledge and capability won't be tolerated. Everyone is deemed capable for the duty they've been given within the staff, you're not to decide who's not capable enough or ready yet.
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Stivi on October 21, 2019, 01:14:56 am: So there is a way for me to express myself and say a certain staff member is an absolute disaster of an admin and still be heard? hmm never felt like that's a thing.

Look, let's face it, when I report an admin, I at least, to this day have not gotten an answer about my report. I get punished for literally "Failure to logic". That's forever on my name now, anyone with access can check. That's not a rule break, is it? I'm stupid, most of the world's population is stupid anyway. Should we ban them all now? It's fucking useless I tell you. I don't know if I'm right or wrong, and if I'm wrong someone should lead their players better and create an environment where rules are clear, but if I'm right, then why has no one ever apologized to me? Fair enough you don't have to, but let's not pretend staff starts to behave better after being scolded. I've seen some reactions that lead me to believe after being talked to and showed that they're wrong, staff members take it out on the players by starting to become less and less tolerant, and this way piss everyone off.

Also something that occurs to me often is some admins coming IG with no knowledge of the rules at all. Now I know most of you are going to get salty, but hear me out.

Nathan passed all the tests to become an admin yeah, he was even up for Division Leader, but he banned that one guy for using keybinds. The man literally had no idea keybinds were allowed in the server.

We all know what happened to the "3-hour" rule. Completely butchered; to this day not everyone knows that it talks about RETALIATION and not RETURNING AFTER DEATH.

And something more recent is the "RPing fear". A certain community member failed at that, which led to a DM and then this rule. In this story I'm the guy that DMed.

For some rules, I was playing at the time these rules changed ( cops returning after death ), for some rules I was "guilty", such as the three-hour rule. I was in Gvardia and the rule was added because of the chaos during the wars between Gvardia Soprano and Corleone.

And another example is, if you all use Discord, you may enter Argonath's server, navigate to "#samp" and see Traser state that commenting on punishments is not allowed. But now I invite you to follow this link: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=100219.0 and then press CTRL+F and then search for "comment". No results. Because such rule does not exist anymore.

So, to address you properly; dear admins, consider this a friendly reminder to understand that in certain scenarios, the players really know better. It shouldn't be up to the staff member to interpret the rules, they should be clear on the official server rules. Sincerely, the players that haven't yet left.
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Serifis on October 21, 2019, 05:46:27 pm: Quote from: Thom on October 20, 2019, 07:54:49 pm

Mods+ have been given their position in staff cause they've proven themselves capable of handling the task, at least in the eyes of the HQ.

1. A staff member tells you something you do is not allowed then it's not allowed. If you don't have obvious undeniable evidence(like an admin can't tell you DM is allowed and if he punishes you for it then he's in trouble),then at that exact moment only what the staff member tells you applies. if the admin is at fault you have the freedom and all the time in the world to report afterwards and he'll get what HQ decides for him.

Hello everyone,

Im RM citizen of Liberty City, I have similar problems with our HQ staff members and you just confirmed my thoughts...If we have a restaurant and I hire one employee be cause he is my friend or i think that he is capable to work and he does something wrong...the fault goes to the customer who is angry and screaming in the cashier or mine be cause I didnt rate my employee as I should?

About the reports, so many reports and nothing changed staff members and players are still walking around...as well you may have "all the time of the world" some players may have only half hour to join and they want to join in your server, than fixing your mistake by reporting them...

Perhaps Im far away from your main subject but I saw your words and since "personal opinion" is still free in Argonath, I reply on these lines and only.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Thom on October 21, 2019, 08:53:25 pm: Quote from: Serifis on October 21, 2019, 05:46:27 pm
Im RM citizen of Liberty City, I have similar problems with our HQ staff members and you just confirmed my thoughts...If we have a restaurant and I hire one employee be cause he is my friend or i think that he is capable to work and he does something wrong...the fault goes to the customer who is angry and screaming in the cashier or mine be cause I didnt rate my employee as I should?

Firstly, I do not aproove of hiring/boosting friends. Secondly, this is ain't for me to answer cause I'm not a part of the HQ, thus not responsible for any mistakes in the staff roaster.

Quote from: Serifis on October 21, 2019, 05:46:27 pm
About the reports, so many reports and nothing changed staff members and players are still walking around...as well you may have "all the time of the world" some players may have only half hour to join and they want to join in your server, than fixing your mistake by reporting them...

What my point is, you can report them the next minute, or the next day or the next year if you'd like to, the reporting format is available. I'd like you to see this from another point of view. If the staff's word/decision is allowed to be defied on the spot by a player, then the staff loses it's power to maintain order. Is disorder what we want? Unfortunately, there will be times a staff member is wrong but for order to exist, even on those times, players will have to get their justice through some paperwork and waiting, not shouting in PMs and public chats.
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Serifis on October 21, 2019, 09:54:18 pm: Quote from: Thom on October 21, 2019, 08:53:25 pm

Firstly, I do not aproove of hiring/boosting friends. Secondly, this is ain't for me to answer cause I'm not a part of the HQ, thus not responsible for any mistakes in the staff roaster.

You are not an admin?

Quote from: Thom on October 21, 2019, 08:53:25 pm

What my point is, you can report them the next minute, or the next day or the next year if you'd like to, the reporting format is available. I'd like you to see this from another point of view. If the staff's word/decision is allowed to be defied on the spot by a player, then the staff loses it's power to maintain order. Is disorder what we want? Unfortunately, there will be times a staff member is wrong but for order to exist, even on those times, players will have to get their justice through some paperwork and waiting, not shouting in PMs and public chats.

Of course no need to shouting in PMs and public chats but no need to do topics like this as well...or HQ staff members has no such rule? Oh yeah you are not count as HQ staff member...does admins? Wait why you posting their topic anyway?

...F*@*# Im confused...
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Thom on October 21, 2019, 09:59:28 pm: Quote from: Serifis on October 21, 2019, 09:54:18 pm
Oh yeah you are not count as HQ staff member...does admins? Wait why you posting their topic anyway?

...F*@*# Im confused...

Quote from: Thom on October 20, 2019, 07:54:49 pm
Due to a recent event and past ones that I've witnessed or been involved, I'd like to remind the players of some things that are said in the rules and some unwritten stuff that should be common sense.

A little more careful reading won't hurt :)
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Serifis on October 21, 2019, 10:20:59 pm: Quote from: Thom on October 21, 2019, 09:59:28 pm

A little more careful reading won't hurt :)

You are not wrong but neither I, each one on his points...perhaps I could see better yours if
I was in the same "recent event" and that`s why I took your words a bit unstable (if I can say).

Before ruin the topic`s goal with my out-subject comments, I will remove myself :)

Thanks for your time,
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Stivi on October 21, 2019, 10:29:49 pm: Bro but like reply to me too yeah? Like let me know if I'm wrong or not xd
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Thom on October 22, 2019, 12:18:18 am: Quote from: Stivi on October 21, 2019, 10:29:49 pm
Bro but like reply to me too yeah? Like let me know if I'm wrong or not xd

I took your reply as friendly reminder that players can be right sometimes too and I know and understand that. Still, same thing I said to Serifis, if you're right there's a way to get justified by reporting afterwards. And you're right about making the rules clear, but again, we can't possibly cover all possible scenarios with a handful of rules, not matter how we expand it and complicate/clear it. And staff's obligation to know the rules right, is a vailid point.

Quote from: Serifis on October 21, 2019, 10:20:59 pm
Before ruin the topic`s goal with my out-subject comments, I will remove myself :)

Thanks for your time,

Thank you too, nothing wrong in discussing important matters.
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Nathan on October 22, 2019, 12:59:49 am: :)
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Thom on October 22, 2019, 02:05:25 pm: There is a difference between made up rules and adjusted sub-rules. We're looking out for a healthy enviroment and all adjustments are to serve that purpose. So even if there isn't for example a "Don't be toxic" rule on the rules list with these exact words, I won't let a toxic person/troll have his way and having fun near the borderline of allowed and not allowed. Cause many people think they're smart teasing admins or players just because what they doing is only 49% wrong according to the rules list, such behaviour can't be encouraged.

So yeah, like I said many times, made up rules that are not to serve a good purpose or feel personal or for whatever reason, the reporting format is there.

In conclusion, the reason staff is entrusted with this adjustment to the situation is because we can't have people acting bossy,toxic or whatever negative, just because they technically are nearly not rulebreaking.
Not the only reason though as I said above, it's also because a rules list can't possibly cover all scenarios that can come up.
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Stivi on October 23, 2019, 12:33:13 am: And I told you the reporting format is jack shit. But you see, it's toxic if I mention shit or use the word fuck. I once got tempbanned and moaned on Discord and ACTUALLY succeeded in getting my punishment removed. Never have done that with none of my reports on the forum. Never. I probably have a few reports saved but an HQ member can vheck, 0 answered out of more than 10 reports. This goes all the way back to RS5.0 too.

So when you tell me to report an admin, you better think about what is making this player not report anyone on the forum.

I reported CBFasi in RS4 for abusing hydra privilege, and Gandalf himself said "he can do whatever he wants to, he is community leader" and I was actually okay with that. I got a response, we good.

So out of all of my proper reports, the ones with feedback are 100% "the staff member didn't do anything wrong", which makes me think, perhaps I was not wrong in these other reports hmmm???

And again, if an admin chooses to asspull a bunch of rules, fuck no I won't use the form, I want that guy to be treated the same way I was, isn't that Argonath's rule? "Treat others as you would like to be treated."

Scenarios:

Certain admin punished me for asspulling. ?? Like come on, where is that not allowed?

Certain admin punished me for "Failure to RP/logic". Now it's not being called stupid that offends me or anything, but it does make me angry that the staff member I speak of ( Whom I won't name for the sake of not getting this topic locked ) probably says "oh cmon he's just moaning". While it's true I do push the limit to 49% or moan or whatever, this time I was really surprised. The admin asked me why I didn't RP getting shot at by the cops. But you don't know half of it even. I was punished because I reported someone for the same reason and he jumped out of a car that was about to blow up and started shooting at me. I JUMPED from a HILL, kept running, kept evading, and then I somehow failed at RPing the fear from the gunshots. And when I said "well adrenaline then" as an excuse ( clearly half-assed excuse because I didn't think I would get punished for this) I got punished for failing to logic. Seems offensive and he's gonna get what he earns, doesn't matter his rank or his name.

A division leader says commenting is allowed, but an admin says I'll get punished if I comment on punishments.

Bro fuck all these essays and talk about "all rules can't be covered". Read the unban request I was referencing (badyboydia banned by Nathan for keybinds). The staff member argued and banned a player for something that is ALLOWED. How the fuck do you expect nobody to call him out?

The staff team is maybe not being led properly due to inactivity, it's divided, unstable, broken maybe, undecided, unaware, and probably other stuff and you're taking it all out on the players. Thanks, but no thanks.
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Thom on October 23, 2019, 03:58:16 pm: Quote from: Stivi on October 23, 2019, 12:33:13 am
Certain admin punished me for "Failure to RP/logic". Now it's not being called stupid that offends me or anything, but it does make me angry that the staff member I speak of ( Whom I won't name for the sake of not getting this topic locked ) probably says "oh cmon he's just moaning". While it's true I do push the limit to 49% or moan or whatever, this time I was really surprised. The admin asked me why I didn't RP getting shot at by the cops. But you don't know half of it even. I was punished because I reported someone for the same reason and he jumped out of a car that was about to blow up and started shooting at me. I JUMPED from a HILL, kept running, kept evading, and then I somehow failed at RPing the fear from the gunshots. And when I said "well adrenaline then" as an excuse ( clearly half-assed excuse because I didn't think I would get punished for this) I got punished for failing to logic. Seems offensive and he's gonna get what he earns, doesn't matter his rank or his name.

Cut this 3rd person, "Certain" and stuff since you know I'll probably be the one that answers you again and I know I'm the admin that punished you for this. This is no place to discuss your punishment. If you feel mistreated, I told you back then too, you can report me.

But don't go out throwing accusations on the whole staff because you've personally felt mistreated in the past. "Staff is taking out on the players" Those are big words and we're not obligated and never were, to spend time of our lifes to make the admin hourchecks and handle reports, it's our choice and some acknowledgement would be nice. Well think what you want, your opinion is heard no need to repeat yourself.

Also for the "the reporting format is jack shit" maybe HQ can step in and give its piece of mind for this comment. But why bother with a non-mannered comment?
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Stivi on October 23, 2019, 10:22:49 pm: Hold up, I thought it was another admin (moderator even - Tom Evans ) that punished me?

Whatever the case don't get caught up in that, these are just recent samples. Go to Discord and read then reply to the comments I made on other scenarios, not your personal ones, I'm not interested in drama. I'm trying to point out some real issues since we're also kinda restructuring, at least do it better this time around.
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Thom on October 24, 2019, 12:08:44 am: Quote from: Stivi on October 23, 2019, 10:22:49 pm
Hold up, I thought it was another admin (moderator even - Tom Evans ) that punished me?

Whatever the case don't get caught up in that, these are just recent samples. Go to Discord and read then reply to the comments I made on other scenarios, not your personal ones, I'm not interested in drama. I'm trying to point out some real issues since we're also kinda restructuring, at least do it better this time around.

I'm Tom Evans, also I'm doing my best to pick out your good points, so thanks for giving your piece of mind for this restructuring you've mentioned.
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Stivi on October 24, 2019, 01:31:10 am: And taking those points in consideration, you still think players don't have the right to get angry/upset/confused? You still think the staff team is not to be blamed?
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Thom on October 24, 2019, 10:22:09 am: Quote from: Stivi on October 24, 2019, 01:31:10 am
And taking those points in consideration, you still think players don't have the right to get angry/upset/confused? You still think the staff team is not to be blamed?

Of course players can get angry, upset and confused if mistreated, it's natural. But you're informed by the rules that you should report in forums after the admin situation has ended. You're not going to make much sense at the spot controlled by those emotions anyway. And if you're willing to risk that, like you did in the past and succeed, it's totally up to you and the admin you're yelling to. An admin might hear you yelling for justice in his PMs or /p or discord, but another totally has the right to make you behave according to the rules and direct you to forum reporting.

About staff I won't turn blind eye nor be unrealistic and say no one of us was ever wrong. And that's why the reporting format is there. You have to understand, that if we have impatient and outraged commenting for any punishment we make, we won't be able to operate properly. Cause trust me no one will ever be happy about getting punished.
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Stivi on October 24, 2019, 10:50:16 am: And again, I have to write about how reporting someone using the form gives me absolutely no feedback, 0 punishments come from it and I have learned absolutely nothing using the report form. Not once has someone told me I'm right or wrong. ( over the course of a few years playing in RS5 I've found myself often with no admins IG, so I have used the form quite a few times. )

So your "solution" to the problem is not useful. Let's see if we can come up with some consensus.
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Thom on October 24, 2019, 11:13:45 am: You're getting confused. I'm not the one responsible for the efficiency of the reporting system you claim to be not working and I'm not the one providing this solution It's already provided by the server and the rules and i'm here to remind it to the players.
Title: Re: Interaction with Staff - A small but important reminder
Post by: Stivi on October 24, 2019, 03:46:22 pm: I know what it is that you do, I'm trying to point out that even though you're a staff member, that's all you should be doing. Not telling me to report you to a black hole, but instead enforcing the rules so that the players don't have anything against you.

And the general dislike to the staff team ( if still a thing, I don't have a PC so I can't log in ) isn't personal hate, it's just because the players are fed up with it.

"Treat others as you would like to be treated." If a player is being treated like shit left and right, you need to put a sock on your mouth before you tell him to be nicer.