Argonath RPG - A World of its own
Argonath RPG Community => Speakerbox => Topic started by: Fabio on April 12, 2011, 06:48:15 pm
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Read more here: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Internet-Trolls-Target-Facebook-Tribute-Pages-Families-Shocked-At-Cruel-Comments-And-Pictures/Article/201104215970613?lpos=UK_News_Second_Technology_Article_Teaser_Region__0&lid=ARTICLE_15970613_Internet_Trolls_Target_Facebook_Tribute_Pages%3A_Families_Shocked_At_Cruel_Comments_And_Pictures (http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Internet-Trolls-Target-Facebook-Tribute-Pages-Families-Shocked-At-Cruel-Comments-And-Pictures/Article/201104215970613?lpos=UK_News_Second_Technology_Article_Teaser_Region__0&lid=ARTICLE_15970613_Internet_Trolls_Target_Facebook_Tribute_Pages%3A_Families_Shocked_At_Cruel_Comments_And_Pictures)
"A "community" of internet users is targeting grieving relatives by posting cruel comments and pictures to memorial pages created on social networking sites.
Some so-called "trolls" have attacked a site dedicated to a teenager who hanged himself after being bullied over the web.
"It's organised, they target recent memorial pages and it's mostly the young where they can cause the most upset," said Robert Mullaney, whose son, Tom, took his own life.
"They go on there - two, three, four of them - they leave vile comments and they sit back and see who responds the most.
"I assume they have some kind of points system. It's a sick game."
Tom was 15 when his dad discovered his body at the family home in Bournville, Birmingham, last year.
He and wife Tracy were at first comforted by tributes left on Facebook, but then horrified by other, vicious postings.
One by a user calling himself 'Pro Fessor' read: "Good news everybody I got a shovel from the store, now us facebook bullies can get to little Tom Mullaney."
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The risks of using the internet tsk tsk tsk.....
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This is beyond trolling. This is where it becomes sick and demented...
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Awfull... I hope the authorities will act uppon this.. although they probably wont
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This is no longer trolling. This is an act of evil. If anything, I'd wish someone tracked down their IPs and shot the "trolls" dead.
Still, Tom was stupid to hang himself after getting bullied on the internet.
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This is no longer trolling. This is an act of evil. If anything, I'd wish someone tracked down their IPs and shot the "trolls" dead.
You can't be possibly serious. Sure, I agree, it's repulsive and vile, but shooting the trolls? No. Perhaps blocking their internet access or stuff like that, but not capital punishment.
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I feel sorry for Tom's family. Those so called "Trolls" should have more punishment than just there accounts being blocked!
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>people committing suicide because of web bullying
ahahahahahahaha
I mean, seriously?
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Anyone else rack up over 9000 points?
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>people committing suicide because of web bullying
ahahahahahahaha
I mean, seriously?
This is my thought as well.
I don't support these so-called trolls particular actions in any way, but their parents should not allow them to even have a computer unless they are capable of handling such things like this. Hanging yourself because of some bullying kids over the internet, no way.
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Just lol...
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Anyone else rack up over 9000 points?
The last time I checked, mine was over 9000.
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News women got trolled hard... " They say their community overs 9000 and is growing" :D
Still, i'd understand suiciding from bullying at school or whatever, but on the internet ? It's like, you can't take shit serious here :P
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News women got trolled hard... " They say their community overs 9000 and is growing" :D
I came buckets.
Man.
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Every person on the internet who seems to be posting out of the ordinary or unlike you want them to = troll....
The story itself is sad, the kid dying, but it is also sad because he took his own life for people posting over the internet. Some souls are not as strong as others, I suppose. May he rest in peace.
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Vile behaviour such as this should not be taken seriously, as many of them would continue and would not get no where in life, also even if you are mistreated on the internet it should not give you the right to kill your self, you have to handle internet life and real life and even if you suffer from people bullying you in real life, you should never kill your self but stand up for your self.
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Blocking internet access isn't going to work, there are too many ways to sneak unless you were locked in some kind of prison.
Personally, I can laugh at some of the shit on sites even as bad as ED, but to do stuff such as this "trolling" on a dead kid, deserves to die.
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Vile behaviour such as this should not be taken seriously, as many of them would continue and would not get no where in life, also even if you are mistreated on the internet it should not give you the right to kill your self, you have to handle internet life and real life and even if you suffer from people bullying you in real life, you should never kill your self but stand up for your self.
Have you ever been depressed?
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Personally, I can laugh at some of the shit on sites even as bad as ED, but to do stuff such as this "trolling" on a dead kid, deserves to die.
People don't deserve to die for rape, homicide, mass-slaughter and etc, but they deserve to die for trolling a dead kid? How flawed.
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I think some people of our community do not understand the essence of the subject....
This is one reason why parents need to keep their kids away from a computer until proper aged. Many of them do not understand the dangerous aspects from it in many ways.
About this 'troll' word... It's really stupid to see how many people actually use the word, Stop it instead of going along with it like blind monkeys.
This is a good example of how bullying can go, even over the internet.
I don't laugh with it, Would you laugh if someone close to you died for something like that, Daco, Antonio? If your mother died for a reason like that, would you laugh at it, would you say 'Lol, just lol...' ? Obviously not.
This issue is something serious and got out of hand, inflicted by a bunch of teenagers that didn't learn how to use their head yet.
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Committing suicide is a sign of a weakness.
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Committing suicide is a sign of a weakness.
Thats true.
I have felt depressed, i never felt like killing my self even if the world is a sad place...
EDIT: Depressed over games is abit stupid, dont you think?
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I just don't understand why he would kill himself, getting bullied irl is a continuous action, getting bullied in the internet lasts for 5 minutes or so, you just close your browser or w/e and you get rid of the bullies.
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I just don't understand why he would kill himself, getting bullied irl is a continuous action, getting bullied in the internet lasts for 5 minutes or so, you just close your browser or w/e and you get rid of the bullies.
White people are really emotional, and suicidal which is a fact.
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White people are really emotional, and suicidal which is a fact.
Since when should you base someone on their skin color? we are still humans even if we are white, black, brown, pink or blue..
Bullying someone on internet is as unacceptable as bullying IRL in my opinion, you are still targeting a human..
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The difference is that in real life, it's hard to avoid getting bullied, while on the internet, it's easy.
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I'm not judging no one for their skin color, as in my family no one is emotional.
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I'm not judging no one for their skin color, as in my family no one is emotional.
Because you hide your emotions it doesn't mean you're not emotional.. Everyone is emotional wether you want it or not.
You can hide your feelings, prevent to cry, but you still have emotions.
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I still think that kid was stupid to hang himself over some internet issue, but that does not justify the actions of those "trolls".
The justice system is flawed and needs a lot more capital punishment, like putting pedos to death or cutting off their penises.
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I still think that kid was stupid to hang himself over some internet issue, but that does not justify the actions of those "trolls".
The justice system is flawed and needs a lot more capital punishment, like putting pedos to death or cutting off their penises.
You for real? That kid is seriously stupid as fuck... If he didn't want no one to troll him over the internet, there is a simple solutions which would keep an end to all of this, deactivate your account. Or never go onto that account ever untill you never get trolled.
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I just can't seem to comprehend the reasoning for committing suicide over internet bullying? Just turn your computer off? lawl
And about the trolls: honestly, are you that surprised? It's the internet after all...
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Kid was clearly unstable as fuck.
I suppose this is better than another school shooting.
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It's actually funny to see how many people judge the guy that hanged himself.
None of us know how cruel and far these guys went, what the mental stability of this person was...
Stop now with your insults to the guy, he passed away and maybe respect is the least thing you could show.
Saying he's a dumb f**ck won't help the discussion NOR the guy himself either.... It will only lead yourself to a punishment, as you are well aware that you cannot insult others on this topic, no matter what circumstances.
Kid was clearly unstable as f**k.
I suppose this is better than another school shooting.
Tell me how do you think you know. You don't know the actual situation, so you shouldn't actually be in a position to judge someone based on that. Maybe he got death treaths, situations in real life, perhaps he got even bullied in real life and internet was a place of peace for him...? You never know, hence you should never judge someone in THAT kind of situation either.
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Guys, you really are missing some major points:
1. Maybe he was being bullied at school, and internet bullying was just a part of it? When someone with a weaker personality is bullied, it can be very traumatic, especially over long periods of time.
2. No friends? He could have been online because he had not got many real life friends, so internet bullying was just the thing that pushed him a little too far. You cannot make assumptions about him without knowing every little piece of information.
3. The media. This one kind of explains the other points. The media will emphasise certain bits of information from which they will get the most viewers. Anything to do with issues of the Internet goes down well with a lot of people, which is why they mention that mostly. Don't forget, most news stations/websites make money through people paying for information, so will do what they can in order to bring more people in. The Sun could be an example of this, but that is another argument entirely :roll:
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Being bullied over the internet and THINKING about killing yourself ... just lol.
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Being bullied over the internet and THINKING about killing yourself ... just lol.
You do know the complete situation of him.. ?
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Who says you have to READ what people write about you ? you can turn off you PC at ANY TIME.
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Who says you have to READ what people write about you ? you can turn off you PC at ANY TIME.
Maybe it is only a part of it. Who are you to say anything about him?
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Who says you have to READ what people write about you ? you can turn off you PC at ANY TIME.
How would you like it if PEOPLE MADE FUN OF YOUR 15 YEAR OLD SON WHO HUNG HIMSELF?
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1. Maybe he was being bullied at school, and internet bullying was just a part of it? When someone with a weaker personality is bullied, it can be very traumatic, especially over long periods of time.
2. No friends? He could have been online because he had not got many real life friends, so internet bullying was just the thing that pushed him a little too far. You cannot make assumptions about him without knowing every little piece of information.
Stop now with your insults to the guy, he passed away and maybe respect is the least thing you could show.
Saying he's a dumb f**ck won't help the discussion NOR the guy himself either.... It will only lead yourself to a punishment, as you are well aware that you cannot insult others on this topic, no matter what circumstances.
Tell me how do you think you know. You don't know the actual situation, so you shouldn't actually be in a position to judge someone based on that. Maybe he got death treaths, situations in real life, perhaps he got even bullied in real life and internet was a place of peace for him...? You never know, hence you should never judge someone in THAT kind of situation either.
Moralfags detected.
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Moralfags detected.
Proud to be so :roll:
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Why do you have a facebook on the first place?
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Why do you have a facebook on the first place?
To troll IRL friends.
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As if you don't troll enough here as it is.
Trolls are an inferior species, a class of degenerates who have lost trace of moral values.
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It is people like those judging the victim in this thread that are the reason people get away with bullying and such over the internet. I mean hell, I know an admin that regularly bullied and advised suicide to others over the internet that everyone still accepts and that is still an admin, even though plenty of proof was provided.
It is absurd.
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He probably had prior mental disorder.
Even though I do feel bad for the kid, the thought of hanging oneself because of some shit happening on the Internet is irrational.
It can range from calling names, insulting, bullying and I still wouldn't give a f**k or be offended.
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Trolls are an inferior species, a class of degenerates who have lost trace of moral values.
Do you care so much about having moral values on the Internet? If yes then I got some bad news for you..
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Do you care so much about having moral values on the Internet? If yes then I got some bad news for you..
Yeah, well showing yourself differently on the internet either means you are seeking attention or do not truly know what you believe in. This is because you tell people different belief's online to what you do IRL.
No offence, but values should not change wherever you are.
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Yeah, well showing yourself differently on the internet either means you are seeking attention or do not truly know what you believe in. This is because you tell people different belief's online to what you do IRL.
No offence, but values should not change wherever you are.
Man, you can't be for real. It's the internet: morals count for nothing here, as quite frankly, nobody gives a shit.
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No offence, but values should not change wherever you are.
(http://www.dreamwidth.org/userpic/512146/466)
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Man, you can't be for real. It's the internet: morals count for nothing here, as quite frankly, nobody gives a shit.
The internet is not just the community of children and teenagers acting tough behind their computers. It is a world wide source for information and communication, acting like a dumbass and immature child over the internet will most likely result in being thrown out of many internet communities and even risking a shutdown from your internet connection.
Morals are broadcasted over the internet more than you may realise and as I may also be quite frankly, everybody gives a shit about people dying. Instead of copying these kids behaviour like some kind of blind chimp in the jungle, I'd say to go for your own opinion, one that actually counts in this world.
I'm getting it from these guys acting like an preschoool child, trying (yes, trying..) to be clever but result in getting removed from the community instead... It's your choise, The first wave got removed already, you can be the following, or stop this attitude that doesn't make any damn point at all.
Further offtopic will be dealt with heavily.
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risking a shutdown from your internet connection.
Since when ISPs shut down your Internet connection because of the way you act on online forums? Where are you getting this BS from?
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risking a shutdown from your internet connection.
(http://www.myfacewhen.com/images/232.jpg)
Since when does this happen?
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okay this is retarded... Words are just words untill you mean them! i can call gandalf a poopy and he knows im joking (poopy WTF)
i mean seariously.... when someone tells you : you are adopted go hang yourself... you don't go hang yourself you write back: go pick up your mother by my place at 8:00....
a 15 years old being THAT sad... than he would hang himself in any way...
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Since when ISPs shut down your Internet connection because of the way you act on online forums? Where are you getting this BS from?
Continued rulebreaking of rules and terms, to which you agreed before might result in legal action being taken against you depending what country you live in.
Depending on the country and the state of facts it happens. I've been witnessing it before..
As for Link, ... Why do you need to post such a picture anyhow?
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Depending on the country and the state of facts it happens. I've been witnessing it before..
What? In a forum?
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As for Link, ... Why do you need to post such a picture anyhow?
I don't see why it's spamming. It's a picture that fits my reaction to your post.
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No ones but the parents' fault. "Parental Advisory" isn't a brand, its a warning.
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Explicit Content
Parental Advisory
Word up!
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a shutdown from your internet connection.
Money World* spins around the money...
As long you pay, they don't give a f**k on what you do.
C'est la vie - welcome :)
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Money spins around the money...
As long you pay, they don't give a f**k on what you do.
C'est la vie - welcome :)
You haven't seen much yet. They'll keep your contract running but you won't recieve any services as a third party comes between your contract so that it is not the opposition that breaks the contract... Stop thinking nobody knows what you are and what you do behind the computer of yours.
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a shutdown from your internet connection.
No, not really. You are not going to lose your internet because of the way you act on an online forum. The police and ISP companies have more important things to worry about like kids killing themselves because they can't turn off their computers and finding the people who drove such kids to suicidal measures and continued to harass the family even after death.
Oh wait, no they don't because they don't know who they are because on the internet you are anonymous and no one really cares.
>mfw :girl:
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You haven't seen much yet. They'll keep your contract running but you won't recieve any services as a third party comes between your contract so that it is not the opposition that breaks the contract... Stop thinking nobody knows what you are and what you do behind the computer of yours.
Elaborate.
Also, provide clear evidence.
So far, all I'm reading is
BS.
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It requires only a little common sense to work out. You get routebanned, other people cannot join the server for example. They change ISP's, and that company loses business.
The natural thing to do would be to cut you off, as you are embarrassing the company; that is what I would do if I owned a company.
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No, not really. You are not going to lose your internet because of the way you act on an online forum. The police and ISP companies have more important things to worry about like kids killing themselves because they can't turn off their computers and finding the people who drove such kids to suicidal measures and continued to harass the family even after death.
Oh wait, no they don't because they don't know who they are because on the internet you are anonymous and no one really cares.
>mfw :girl:
You can, Make several violations against the law and you will be removed, If you keep breaking trough internet, Your Internet shall be cut off... It's only a matter of where you live.
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You can, Make several violations against the law and you will be removed, If you keep breaking trough internet, Your Internet shall be cut off... It's only a matter of where you live.
Doing illegal activities that the law bans is one thing, and the way you behave on online communities is another.
To this very moment, you keep bullshitting (trolling) everyone here.
I suggest everyone reading this thread to disregard every single point made by this individual until he proves his statements.
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Stop thinking nobody knows what you are and what you do behind the computer of yours.
You're telling me that they're watching every single user's behavior?
We're talking about business (ISPs) not e-parents.
As long as you pay their salary - it's ok.
As for the family..
If the kid got bullied on the internet and suicided because of the internet, why the heck would you do an online tribute via facebook? What would you expect? Those kind of people has no remorses...
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The end does not justify the means.
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You're telling me that they're watching every single user's behavior?
We're talking about business (ISPs) not e-parents.
As long as you pay their salary - it's ok.
As for the family..
If the kid got bullied on the internet and suicided because of the internet, why the heck would you do an online tribute via facebook? What would you expect? Those kind of people has no remorses...
There are many catches on the internet. In cases of internet communities like Argonath, a report has to be written out from one of the owners to make the ISP aware. I've done it before on the ALS forums, legal action was taken against a Spammer and someone who did break the rules several times, with warning. I've done it myself, If you want proof, there it is; If you don't believe me, then so be it.
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There are many catches on the internet. In cases of internet communities like Argonath, a report has to be written out from one of the owners to make the ISP aware. I've done it before on the ALS forums, legal action was taken against a Spammer and someone who did break the rules several times, with warning. I've done it myself, If you want proof, there it is; If you don't believe me, then so be it.
That is not proof, that is you saying something. Let me provide proof that I've had sex with the queen. Last summer I met her on the beach and banged her. Shit was good.
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That is not proof, that is you saying something. Let me provide proof that I've had sex with the queen. Last summer I met her on the beach and banged her. Shit was good.
Read Again; If you do not see my words as proof then so be it, I and all the other members of the earlier ALS group know their thing, I'm not even trying to convince you're not even using your own common sense anyway...
If you knew me better, then you should know that I won't lie for it either...
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''Schoolkiller'' kids become schoolkiller kids because their parents are too busy making money or cheating on each other to look after their children. The same for other general ''internet sickos'' and dudes like this Tom guy Fabio talks about.
Hanging yourself because of a bunch of mentally disturbed children? Are you serious? Lol... I can only feel sorry for the Tom dude for such an awesome family.
Also: while most people here seemed to call this something ''much above trolling'' this seems a quite good example of ''having fun at the expense of others" which is apparently the whole point of ''trolling''. No wonder why so many regulars and vets here call someone a ''troll'' because of a single slang/swear/flame word.
@Ryan:
You are not the only person in the world who dials an ISP company asking for action to be taken against a bunch of children who cannot behave like sane humans - I am pretty sure that in 90% of the cases the ISP has something more important to do than dealing with your local threats (e.g. calling up a random telephone number and attempt to get another user). Sure, there are cases where ISPs took certain ''action'' against ''threats'' - but it is far away from being this ''tight enforcement'' idea you talk about...
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Kid most likely had a bad upbringing.
Also, ITT: ryan wants to flick the internet switch
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ITT: Trolls given a more horrendous name for themselves than before because of some twats.
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Read Again; If you do not see my words as proof then so be it, I and all the other members of the earlier ALS group know their thing, I'm not even trying to convince you're not even using your own common sense anyway...
If you knew me better, then you should know that I won't lie for it either...
An ISP company won't cut your internet off because you've pissed someone off on a little gaming forum.
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An ISP company won't cut your internet off because you've pissed someone off on a little gaming forum.
Word, otherwise they'd shut down a lot of connections yet.
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Word, otherwise they'd shut down a lot of connections yet.
Did I ever say that when some annoying guy comes by, he gets instantly cut off his ISP?
It takes more than that before involving the subject's ISP in first place!
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Forums have a punishment system, a ban system.. and even a subnet ban. Isn't that enough to keep people away for you?
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ISP punishments are usually reserved for cyber crimes such as hacking or defacing a web site, such as the time when Audio Visual replaced =AV='s website with gay porno. :barf:
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This isn't trolling. This is just plainly being a fucktard.
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ISP punishments are usually reserved for cyber crimes such as hacking or defacing a web site, such as the time when Audio Visual replaced =AV='s website with gay porno. :barf:
I had a shock when I went on the website that day! :conf:
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Did that guy hang coz he was internet bullied?
LOL?
Well, nothing more but Requiescat in Pace is all I can say.
Post Merge: April 19, 2011, 09:19:14 am
This is one reason why parents need to keep their kids away from a computer until proper aged. Many of them do not understand the dangerous aspects from it in many ways.
Just so you know, im on the internet since 7 years old.
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Which is why you are already fucked up.
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Now that I took time to read some of the replies I found this out.
This is one reason why parents need to keep their kids away from a computer until proper aged. Many of them do not understand the dangerous aspects from it in many ways.
You're generalizing (stubborn) all children as immature and kids who cannot differ the virtual from the reality. Every day the group of children that become mature quicker than the rest reaches that even earlier. As long as their parents give a least of shit about their kid they will teach him to differ what is real and what is virtual. Someone who can do that won't go around shooting their schoolmates or suiciding because of a bunch of bored people.
It is impossible to keep your children away from modern technology, unless you put them living under a rock.
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Yet, we still have retards who An Hero after getting trolled and kill other people in the name of GTA. Tragic, really.
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Which is why you are already f**ked up.
:lol:
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retards who An Hero after getting trolled
Nice that you insult people getting relentlessly bullied in such a way.
No wonder NitrOx is still an admin if everyone thinks it's okay to endorse suicide and bully others.
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Now that I took time to read some of the replies I found this out.
You're generalizing (stubborn) all children as immature and kids who cannot differ the virtual from the reality. Every day the group of children that become mature quicker than the rest reaches that even earlier. As long as their parents give a least of shit about their kid they will teach him to differ what is real and what is virtual. Someone who can do that won't go around shooting their schoolmates or suiciding because of a bunch of bored people.
It is impossible to keep your children away from modern technology, unless you put them living under a rock.
Take a look outside your window and look for yourself. The largest part of people doesn't have their own opinion and follow someone they pretend to be like. This is not being 'Stubborn', This is just a point of view that I approach in a realistic way.
If you do not believe me, Then experience it yourself. It's actually sad to see people behind their computers ALL day with the cell phone in their pocket, always depressed and bored when trying to be With no respect and lack of brain activity to realise being annoying on a computer is simply a certain form of addiction, the 'new' generation is doomed in their future lives. I saw only a dew worth to respect, others pretend to be a street thug or as Aragorn stated before, people with a high grade of computer / Internet addiction, Logical that these people do not understand their mistakes, like with all forms of addictions until they go to kick off and understand what the world really is.
Post Merge: April 20, 2011, 01:18:05 am
Did that guy hang coz he was internet bullied?
LOL?
Well, nothing more but Requiescat in Pace is all I can say.
Post Merge: April 19, 2011, 09:19:14 am
Just so you know, im on the internet since 7 years old.
The fact that you're using words from a game instead of your own vocabulary can support my view posted above. No offense tough.
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Nice that you insult people getting relentlessly bullied in such a way.
No wonder NitrOx is still an admin if everyone thinks it's okay to endorse suicide and bully others.
Not everyone who commits suicide is retarded, but some of them are just people with problems in the brain. Internet bullying is different from incidents such as getting harassed by people IRL, as it is easier to avoid... so I see absolutely no need to take your own life for such an improper reason.
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Take a look outside your window and look for yourself. The largest part of people doesn't have their own opinion and follow someone they pretend to be like. This is not being 'Stubborn', This is just a point of view that I approach in a realistic way.
If you do not believe me, Then experience it yourself. It's actually sad to see people behind their computers ALL day with the cell phone in their pocket, always depressed and bored when trying to be With no respect and lack of brain activity to realise being annoying on a computer is simply a certain form of addiction, the 'new' generation is doomed in their future lives. I saw only a dew worth to respect, others pretend to be a street thug or as Aragorn stated before, people with a high grade of computer / Internet addiction, Logical that these people do not understand their mistakes, like with all forms of addictions until they go to kick off and understand what the world really is.
Correct.
Imitation is necessary to some extent. But again, you're generalising the general internet under age and aged community, which is a logical mistake.
It's like saying all black people are criminals... or all females are stupid. Get my point?
Again, you fail to provide evidence or at least citations to back your claims. But okay.
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Correct.
Imitation is necessary to some extent. But again, you're generalising the general internet under age and aged community, which is a logical mistake.
It's like saying all black people are criminals... or all females are stupid. Get my point?
Again, you fail to provide evidence or at least citations to back your claims. But okay.
Generalising is not being used here. This is simply the way things are. I'm not saying everyone who uses a computer is an addict, nor saying that every addict is blind. However it's a large part of the computer addicted (Electronic / Internet addiction) that do not see themselves acting in such a way that it may affect others. In fact they think it is cool and funny to do, however it's simply sad to even think about it. Sitting behind your computer, insulting others... That's simply a coward style of living, if you really are this way, wouldn't you better be who you are and do it in the 'real' world rather than some virtual box as medium...... don't you think?
Proof hasn't to be provided my me neither, It is YOU that must open your eyes and see around, that's the best proof you can get.
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There's a great article called "The trolls among us" by the NY Times which clearly show the dangers in trolling. It's a really really good article!
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This is no longer trolling. This is an act of evil. If anything, I'd wish someone tracked down their IPs and shot the "trolls" dead.
Still, Tom was stupid to hang himself after getting bullied on the internet.
Still very sad :(