Argonath RPG - A World of its own
GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: Comrade on August 02, 2011, 12:14:23 am
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Okay, so I've been gone a week and I come back to a new rule.
One is now prohibited to advertise (both buying and selling) illegal goods like drugs, guns, illegal gambling, hitman, etc...
What I want clarified, is one allowed to cleverly avoid that rule?
Like "Buying Softgun Replicas of an MP5 Submachine Gun!"
It's obvious the individual is buying the SMG, but after all it is just an assumption and as far as I know administrators can not take action against that.
After all, the said individual might REALLY want to buy a Softgun for a specific RP and administrators can't punish them for that, right?
I've asked a couple of admins regarding this issue and I've yet to find someone who actually knows about it.
Would be nice if someone (preferably Aragorn, since as far as I know this rule was his idea) clarified this for me.
Small update.
I had a chat with Grzesiek, and he told me that this mainly varies from Admin to Admin. Some may warn, some may not.
And that one is allowed to give "hints" in the /ad's about what product one is buying, and then telling the potential costumer to phone them for more information regarding the "legal" goods.
(http://img717.imageshack.us/img717/769/samp191a.png)
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No. Attempt to mislead the administration with illegal ads (such as "Buying sugar" which in theory meaning heroin) will be punishable. Some people are wiseguys and think that they can get away with rulebreaking, that is NO longer the case.
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But Nathan my friend, Administration can not read minds.
It's obvious the buyer is buying Heroin, yes, but what proof do you have that he really IS buying Heroin and not actually roleplaying buying Sugar?
Maybe he's making the worlds biggest cake? Nobody knows but the buyer.
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This isn't a new rule...if I remember correctly back when I joined illegal advertisements were admin punishable. It was just forgotten.
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I thought illegal advertisements were for the cops to deal with, not the administration.
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I agree with Violet, I also do not even see why the hell this idea was implemented
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It is a player made rule...
Clarification can be found here. http://www.argonathrpg.eu/forum/index.php?topic=72839.0 (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/forum/index.php?topic=72839.0)
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Yes, it is fine to do that.
Frankly I'm very surprised that illegal ads being allowed wasn't an official rule, given that it has been common knowledge on the server for months that it was no longer an admin matter.
However, like everything else, it varies between admin based on their personal interpretation of the rules.
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Aragorn mentioned that it is not written down due to "common sense", but as far as I know "there are no unwritten rules in Argonath".
I'm fine with /ad being restricted for legal items only.
What I do not like is players getting warned for "Illegal Ad" when they write "Buying grass" as if the Administrator can read minds and just assumes the advertiser means weed.
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But Nathan my friend, Administration can not read minds.
It's obvious the buyer is buying Heroin, yes, but what proof do you have that he really IS buying Heroin and not actually roleplaying buying Sugar?
Maybe he's making the worlds biggest cake? Nobody knows but the buyer.
This kind of bullshit is the same situation to those smartass players who are warned for "Turn your caps off lock" and answer with "LOLOLOLOL I WAS USING SHIFT LOLOLOL WRONG WARNING".
Aragorn said illegal ads are not allowed, then they are not, deal with it or leave if you don't like it. Now, if you wanna "RP IT" by doing /ad BUYING SUGAR then don't complain if the admins start spectating you and get banned if they find you were actually doing an illegal ad for being smartass enough to try to cheat on the admins.
Wanna sell drugs - check the streets... It is not in the rules as we were counting on players' logic to understand that selling drugs should be a hidden way not an advertisement through TV/Newspapers on all over the server...
Clear enough.
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By illegal do you mean a server rulebreak or a suspectable criminal offence?
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Server rulebreak, Shockk.
This kind of bullshit is the same situation to those smartass players who are warned for "Turn your caps off lock" and answer with "LOLOLOLOL I WAS USING SHIFT LOLOLOL WRONG WARNING".
No, it is not. In the scenario you provided, the player broke the no caps rule.
It does not matter if he used the caps lock button or the shift button, he still wrote in capital letters.
Buying "Sugar" or "Grass" however, is not illegal at all, and administrators that punish people for that are just assuming that the advertisers are buying heroin or weed. They do not know for certain and they never will (unless they watch the deal), considering the fact that they can't read minds.
So please, don't come here and call my post for bullshit.
And as for the quote by Aragorn - he says lots of things. First he says there are no unwritten rules in Argonath and then he says that it's not written due to "common sense". You've got to understand that when an owner is going against his own words there will be confusion and I just want this one clarified out.
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I asked this on msn to Gandalf and his answer to me was that the /ad was frequently spammed with illegal advertisements. It got abused to much so they had to enforce the rule that no illegal ads will never
be there again. It was fine before, but due that people spammed it to much they got tired of it and enforced it.
I can't understand why people can't like do an /ad once every minute, or contact their family allies, or gang allies.
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/ad can be covered, enhancing the roleplay a lil' bit - as you would do IRL, try to cover the fact you're selling drugs
Would be pointless to remove it, /ad's getting abused everyday by shout-outs, events, countdowns.. why y'all mad about drugs?
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Buying "Sugar" or "Grass" however, is not illegal at all, and administrators that punish people for that are just assuming that the advertisers are buying heroin or weed. They do not know for certain and they never will (unless they watch the deal), considering the fact that they can't read minds.
Fine, advertise you want buy grass or sugar and i'll get a truck ready to sell you actual grass or sugar, you will have no objection to buy from me.
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Now, if you wanna "RP IT" by doing /ad BUYING SUGAR then don't complain if the admins start spectating you and get banned if they find you were actually doing an illegal ad for being smartass enough to try to cheat on the admins.
I have to disagree with that statement.
Firstly, doing "/ad BUYING SUGAR" is not at all an illegal ad. Sure, it could lead to an illegal trade but the advertisement itself is not illegal. I don't mind seeing ads such as "buying sugar" or "buying grass", and I honestly don't see why it should be disallowed... people are simply hiding the fact that what they are doing is illegal, and that in itself is what I'd consider to be part of roleplay. If the police are suspicious of an ad like that, they can go investigate. What's the problem?
Secondly, do you honestly think when people do these ads that they are trying to be a "smartass" and "cheat" on admins? That is the main part I disagreed with...
IMO, there is nothing wrong with doing such ads, and they should not be considered as "illegal" if they are hidden by a "legal" ad.
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Firstly, doing "/ad BUYING SUGAR" is not at all an illegal ad. Sure, it could lead to an illegal trade but the advertisement itself is not illegal. I don't mind seeing ads such as "buying sugar" or "buying grass", and I honestly don't see why it should be disallowed... people are simply hiding the fact that what they are doing is illegal, and that in itself is what I'd consider to be part of roleplay. If the police are suspicious of an ad like that, they can go investigate. What's the problem?
This.
This entire paragraph, man.
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If players wish to continue evading common sense we can remove the feature all together...
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If players wish to continue evading common sense we can remove the feature all together...
Meaning we can then advertise in main chat?
WHOO!
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Meaning we can then advertise in main chat?
WHOO!
Haha epic win.
But seriously, if you are advertising illegal goods, I'd suggest FBI bust them then do a court case with a fee of 50K+ dollars, so they won't do that kind of shit again. Just like in 2009.
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But seriously, if you are advertising illegal goods, I'd suggest FBI bust them then do a court case with a fee of 50K+ dollars, so they won't do that kind of shit again. Just like in 2009.
Takes shitloads of time to prepare.. :neutral:
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Meaning we can then advertise in main chat?
WHOO!
Sure if you want to be banned...
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Haha epic win.
But seriously, if you are advertising illegal goods, I'd suggest FBI bust them then do a court case with a fee of 50K+ dollars, so they won't do that kind of shit again. Just like in 2009.
Such suggestions work if players have the common sense not to try advertise illegal things every minute.
In the current situation where players are only looking for the easy money other actions are needed.
So what is the situation if we try to solve this without admins ?
Problem: Players abusing ad for illegal things.
Answer : let the cops handle it by suspecting.
Problem : Players abuse ad to get suspected so they can have a shootout / mass advertise so cops can not keep up
Answer : Disallow illegal ads.
Problem : Players start advertising under different names
Answer : remove the ad feature as it will also reduce spam....
Problem : Players use public chat to advertise
Answer : Remove public chat
Problem : Players will use PM to advertise
Answer : Remove PM
Alternative:
Problem: Players abusing ad for illegal things.
Answer : Let admins warn them until they find ROLEPLAY ways to sell
While we do nit wish to overflow admins with work or make them seen as a negative influence, if the players can not control them selves we have to choose between admin action or turning off good features.
Now for the "smart" players who feel they can circumvent the rules by advertising grass, sugar, flour, toy guns....
As soon as more than 80% of the ads are legal we will not mind. Deal ?
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First off let me see I've never seen once in real life someone selling drugs on ads unless it's medicine an pharmacy related. I know Argonath isn't based off real life but I see no one sell weed or heroin in an ad. Now to all you guys thinking you can get away with the illegal ads, you are just provoking admins and asking for a punishment.
Altnerative:
Call the people and ask.
Walk around and ask the people.
It's really not that hard, just use common sense.
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I have to agree with it not being allowed. If you really want to sell something illegal, advertise your "cover" business that's a front for your illegal activity, leaving CODED messages in it that only your known, trusted customers understand that no one else could figure out. Saying you are selling grass or sugar is fairly obvious and therefore you better be ready for people wanting to buy the real thing, so it's not very effective or good at concealing the idea. The point of an illegal ad is only so your under-the-counter customers know it's real meaning, while no one else does. For example:
/ad Come eat at Saint Marco's Bistro today! Try our delicious spaghetti and meatballs, only $9.95!
The average user would see that as a normal ad, advertising food at a restaurant. What your known, trusted, illegal customers know is that this specific advertisement means you are available to sell things illegally. As an alternative, the owner of the business "front" could use an alternative ad that their customers know means that it's not safe to purchase right now, like:
/ad Saint Marco's Bistro! Open every day 7 A.M. to 9 P.M.! (Closed for lunch between 12 P.M. and 1 P.M.)
If the illegal customers know the coding of these ads, one can advertise something legal, which they can still offer for a legal profit through their business front, all while notifying their illegal customers of what's going on. As an added trick, if a member of FBI infiltrates the business' trust and the business owner tells them the code of the system, FBI can use this information to eventually take down the organization, adding a benefited risk to both sides of roleplay. On the contrary, because the FBI member would be undercover, there is a risk of blowing their cover or being killed. All of this still falls within legal advertising too because the initial ads themselves advertise something being sold legally through the business "front", while adding a roleplayed "code" to help illegal businesses prosper..., or get caught! ;)
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Bad screenshot in first post.
You should have put the line where I said that it depends on what you sell/buy, not on the ad content. Because if you tell you're selling heroin, it really doesn't matter that you write wheat flour or sugar or heroin in ad. You're still selling heroin, which is an illegal product. Also the screenshot was made late at night :razz:
And of course players instead of just complying with a simple order and advertising in /s or something, they have to argue "but what if I do this" "but what if I type it like that" "but what if its RP" "but this isn't written on rules page"...
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And of course players instead of just complying with a simple order and advertising in /s or something, they have to argue "but what if I do this" "but what if I type it like that" "but what if its RP" "but this isn't written on rules page"...
Ya...the unfortunate exceptions to the rules have always been an issue in Argo because many of it's lesser important rules are sometimes stated by word of mouth, but never written, or at least made publicly-available for all to view, so there's always many conflicts regarding what is allowed and what's pushing the limits. I remember back in 2009 when things were shifting to Departments again in SA:MP SAPD, this issue was especially common because multiple Chiefs were making conflicting rules and forgetting to post them, so everyone was becoming confused on what was and wasn't allowed. This also opened up the ability for people to take advantage of the conflict to exploit loopholes, such as what we see now with the "selling grass and sugar" incident in /ad. Fortunately though, these issues are becoming less and less common these days as key figures in the community have been stepping in to say what is what, and much of it is done on the forums now, providing a written statement on the issues. Hopefully within time, this problem will fade away as well.
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How about "/ad Selling cheap guns inside Willofield ammunation." ? Selling guns inside an ammu is legal, as far i know.
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How about "/ad Selling cheap guns inside Willofield ammunation." ? Selling guns inside an ammu is legal, as far i know.
If you own the Ammunation and you plan on RP'ing the cashier as long as you don't scam people ;)
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If you own the Ammunation
you don't have to.
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@Grze
I actually wanted to put up our whole conversation but I didn't take screens o' em until it was too late.
Still think I have the log though, so if you want I can put that up instead.
I still don't see the problem in "hiding" the real product by cleverly advertise for something legal instead. Theoretically the ad is legal and that's what owners wanted; only legal ads in /ad.
It's not the product being advertised that 'causes the spam, it's the fact that /ad does not have a timer like /taxi has.
You'know, "Give them a chance to read it..."
If you own the Ammunation and you plan on RP'ing the cashier as long as you don't scam people ;)
You don't have to own and Ammunation to roleplay a Cashier.
Just as you don't have to own a Fast Food Store to go inside the blue shirt and roleplay a cashier there.
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Such suggestions work if players have the common sense not to try advertise illegal things every minute.
In the current situation where players are only looking for the easy money other actions are needed.
So what is the situation if we try to solve this without admins ?
Problem: Players abusing ad for illegal things.
Answer : let the cops handle it by suspecting.
Problem : Players abuse ad to get suspected so they can have a shootout / mass advertise so cops can not keep up
Answer : Disallow illegal ads.
Problem : Players start advertising under different names
Answer : remove the ad feature as it will also reduce spam....
Problem : Players use public chat to advertise
Answer : Remove public chat
Problem : Players will use PM to advertise
Answer : Remove PM
Alternative:
Problem: Players abusing ad for illegal things.
Answer : Let admins warn them until they find ROLEPLAY ways to sell
Hm... Good point. Can't disagree.
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you don't have to.
To advertise it's weapons as being sold by you you do or it's illegal.
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To advertise it's weapons as being sold by you you do or it's illegal.
[citation needed]
Since MTA:VC you did not need to own a business to use it for own profit. I don't know where you got that from.
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To advertise it's weapons as being sold by you you do or it's illegal.
Oh, so that's why all fast food interiors have a blue skirt which you can enter to get a cashier skin of the said fast food store?
Most people doing that don't own it, are you claiming they are doing anything illegal?
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[citation needed]
Since MTA:VC you did not need to own a business to use it for own profit. I don't know where you got that from.
I'm only referring to SA:MP in this case given what server this discussion is on. Gandalf and Aragorn stated that illegal /ads are disallowed, and weapons dealing is illegal in Argo. The only legal way to obtain weapons outside of valid job dutying is from Ammunation, thus advertising selling your own weapons inside Ammunation would still be illegal. The only exception I can possibly think of is the one I mentioned to him which said that he was RP'ing being a cashier inside an Ammunation he owned, and even then he wouldn't be allowed to sell the weapons himself, just RP such and the scripts would handle the rest. Otherwise that's the same thing as walking into a gun shop and trying to sell a stolen gun to a gun shop customer. Odd, I know, but still illegal according to Argo. Since illegal /ads are disallowed, the example he used would be too. MTA:VC is a whole different story though. Advertisements there were added much later and being that things have to be RP'ed in a non-scripted way there, the rules regarding weapon dealing are a bit different for obvious reasons.
Oh, so that's why all fast food interiors have a blue skirt which you can enter to get a cashier skin of the said fast food store?
Most people doing that don't own it, are you claiming they are doing anything illegal?
I'm speaking of the weapons dealing itself, which is illegal outside of Ammunation and valid duty jobs. Since the statement the Server Owners said was that illegal ads aren't allowed, his example wouldn't be either. I just provided the RP'ed cashier thing as an example of how he could still use his ad without actually breaking the rules or dealing weapons, which would break the /ad's rules since it's illegal.
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You're complicating it yourself. If the deal was done in Ammunation, it's legal by law. That's it. I still do not know where did you get the "has to own ammunation" part.
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You're complicating it yourself. If the deal was done in Ammunation, it's legal by law. That's it. I still do not know where did you get the "has to own ammunation" part.
Being inside Ammunation doesn't make the weapon deal legal because Ammunation itself has to be the one selling the weapons, hence why it's still illegal and thus couldn't be used in /ad. I'm not here to argue details Grzes, I'm really not in the mood. I just posted an example to answer his question.
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So what is the situation if we try to solve this without admins ?
- Problem: Players abusing ad for illegal things.
- Answer : let the cops handle it by suspecting.
- Problem : Players abuse ad to get suspected so they can have a shootout / mass advertise so cops can not keep up
- Answer : Disallow illegal ads.
- Problem : Players start advertising under different names
- Answer : remove the ad feature as it will also reduce spam....
- Problem : Players use public chat to advertise
- Answer : Remove public chat
- Problem : Players will use PM to advertise
- Answer : Remove PM
Why you don't punish at 3, instead of 1? We have admins to deal with it step 3, but COPS for step 1. It is a very low possibility and a quite paranoid statement you gave there. I also can not god damn understand why you guys so afraid of shootouts, it is GTA after all, as you say. I thought they are fine as long as there is a reason. I hate shooting and such. Can't shoot anyway. Just saying.
Cucumber Inc. || Buying high quality Soil || Good prices, contact Yuri Gvardia
If I get admin punished for that, shall be the most retarded moment in my entire Argonath life. But arrested, it will be lovely. FBI searching my factory for some proofs, questioning around. Can't you see, this shit may create some kickass RP situations.
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But Nathan my friend, Administration can not read minds.
It's obvious the buyer is buying Heroin, yes, but what proof do you have that he really IS buying Heroin and not actually roleplaying buying Sugar?
Maybe he's making the worlds biggest cake? Nobody knows but the buyer.
This is what a smart ass would tell me if he was trying to worm their way out of being punished for rulebreaking.
Firstly, admins are not retarded, and secondly, we are not IRL lawyers, we do not need to associate the correct evidence, build up a case against rulebreakers nor do we even have to present the rulebreakers with evidence.
On the basis of probability aka COMMON SENSE alone I would admin punish anyway and any smart ass moan that followed would be dealt with just as swiftly.
Bottom line is - If you want to RP illegal sales - Using /ad is the most retarded, unimaginative, boring and disruptive way.
This rule does not need clarifying.
USE COMMON SENSE.
My own method of illegal drug dealing would be to go around to the gangs and ask around, or SMS/ call gang members to ask around.
Cucumber Inc. || Buying high quality Soil || Good prices, contact Yuri Gvardia
If I get admin punished for that, shall be the most retarded moment in my entire Argonath life. But arrested, it will be lovely. FBI searching my factory for some proofs, questioning around. Can't you see, this shit may create some kickass RP situations.
Yeah if you actually made some effort to RP something imaginative and fun, then it is not a problem for admins - we do not punish RP. But for the seriously obvious ones, they are just annoying more than anything.
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Ammunation itself has to be the one selling the weapons
[citation needed]
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Why you don't punish at 3, instead of 1? We have admins to deal with it step 3, but COPS for step 1. It is a very low possibility and a quite paranoid statement you gave there. I also can not god damn understand why you guys so afraid of shootouts, it is GTA after all, as you say. I thought they are fine as long as there is a reason. I hate shooting and such. Can't shoot anyway. Just saying.
Cucumber Inc. || Buying high quality Soil || Good prices, contact Yuri Gvardia
If I get admin punished for that, shall be the most retarded moment in my entire Argonath life. But arrested, it will be lovely. FBI searching my factory for some proofs, questioning around. Can't you see, this shit may create some kickass RP situations.
Because due to the frequency of ads we notice that cops can not handle 1.
Also while there is nothing wrong with a shootout from time to time, there is a lot wrong with constantly trying to get in to a shootout. People who do that are just deathmatchers, and often the ones moaning about needing equalilty etc...
As for the ad... it depends on if you actually have a factury where you might grow cucumbers.
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As for the ad... it depends on if you actually have a factury where you might grow cucumbers.
Can't he roleplay growing them on a field?
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Gandalf or Aragorn confirm this please, but:
Legal uses:
Business
Event's
Legal trades ie donuts etc
illegal uses:
Anything that goes against the law
Rule breaking adds:
Weapons
Drugs
Adds that directly imply selling drugs/weapons.
Add, change or complete any of you, that Is what I would say sounds about right.
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In the end,everyone mashed the same thing into a potato,and make it look bad - Said the Narrator.
If you can put up some effort onto the /ad,there won't be problems with either admins and cops.
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As far as selling weapons is concerned, all weapons dealers are hackers, or have bought from hackers. That is what Aragorn told me.
Thus doing /ad Selling cheap weapons would be bannable anyway.
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As far as selling weapons is concerned, all weapons dealers are hackers, or have bought from hackers. That is what Aragorn told me.
Thus doing /ad Selling cheap weapons would be bannable anyway.
Lets say it this way... you know the prices of weapons and ammo in ammunation, and to this you must add the entrance fee.
If you have the weapon and buy huge loads of ammo, the price of ammo would make the entrance fee neglectible. This means that in theory you could sell a little bit above the price of ammo and make a profit.
This does not explain people who sell at prices lower than ammo, and the general idea of players that you must make a huge profit on a deal to make it worth while...
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Being inside Ammunation doesn't make the weapon deal legal because Ammunation itself has to be the one selling the weapons, hence why it's still illegal and thus couldn't be used in /ad. I'm not here to argue details Grzes, I'm really not in the mood. I just posted an example to answer his question.
Act VII: Trading weapons in public space (unless in a weapon shop) is an illegal act.
I think no explanation is needed Sugar, your statement was totally false.
Explanation if needed:...
Trading is selling it to an other person in general, or buying it from an other person. There is no need for a business to be involved in this selling and buying (aka trading). Thus it is not the ammunation that has to be the one selling the weapons. It can also be person to person, according to the above part from the constitution.
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Boom baby boom! I think no explanation is needed Sugar, your statement was totally false.
Explanation if needed:...
Trading is selling it to an other person in general, or buying it from an other person. There is no need for a business to be involved in this selling and buying (aka trading). Thus it is not the ammunation that has to be the one selling the weapons. It can also be person to person, according to the above part from the constitution.
The constitution is not made for wannabe nitpickers....
EDIT:
Question... (trick question) : who is responsible for transactions done in a shop if you see transactions inside any shop as legal trading ?
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The constitution is not made for wannabe nitpickers....
EDIT:
Question... (trick question) : who is responsible for transactions done in a shop if you see transactions inside any shop as legal trading ?
Im guessing that would be the owner of that said ammunation. If the owner is not present during the deal wouldn't that make the trade illegal?
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If the owner is not present during the deal wouldn't that make the trade illegal?
What if it is un-owned ? ;)
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Firstly, /ad is overpriced.
Secondly, Aragorn said in-game to someone how is a legal product illegal to sell - guns - so kind of said that they are not il-legal to sell, this is what I understood.
SA:MP Law, government and general setup is just primitive and unorganized.
Actual server rules are also unorganized.
It says somewhere if a rule is not written down then it's not a rule (not in reference to this specific topic) .
IVMP is adopting a much more better choice in such affairs, it's not limiting peoples role-play but providing much more of it - and unlike in samp it does not always rely on scripts (like formerly /engine and current fire missions).
Look how long it took for the constitution to be made... (no offense to the ones who made it but it could also be changed a bit)
@ Gandalf: I actually can grow cucumbers on a farm, I role-play (in) a farm for many months ... You may or not remember but I wrote about an icdenent where I was roleplaying farmer and then FBI/SAPD/ARPD came upto me and was starting to ahrass me and saying I'm selling drugs because I sell "Oregano", and you or someone said I should take them to court for it (but it's a waste of time)
Also /ad is too expensive and it's already already littered with these dumb events for "CRAZYYYYYY DD". People don't role-play DD they just use it as another way to cause destruction - pretty much dming and ramming but with "EVENT" label.
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The constitution is not made for wannabe nitpickers....
It was from my side not meant that way. It was my interpretation of the constitution/law that I think would be used in court. And since I am FBI, I already quite fast think in such ways.
EDIT:
Question... (trick question) : who is responsible for transactions done in a shop if you see transactions inside any shop as legal trading ?
If I have to interpret this question, you are saying that I see a transaction in any shop as legal. In this case I was speaking about a weapon transaction in an ammunation. I definitely do not think that like a heroin transaction in a burger shot is legal, neither a weapon deal in a bistro.
As I don't really know how this question is ment, regarding the above thing I stated, I will answer this as a transaction of weapons inside any ammunation. And yes indeed, now you say, in this combination, it is tricky. This question can be seen and answered in many ways in my opinion. In general you can say about a transaction done in a shop that the final responsible person is the owner. However, direct responsible is the one behind the cash register. I would say that both (staff behind the cash register and owner) are responsible.
Now the question were this was all coming from. If it is legal for any person to do a weapon transaction in an ammunation? You make me doubt... Since I am FBI and sometimes I have to interpret the constitution directly as it is read and as only law way, then I would still say it is legal. However, common sense here would answer the opposite. With common sense it is weird that trading of weapons outside an ammunation is not allowed, but inside it is. So then it would only be the ammunation (so the staff/owner) that can trade weapons. But in a court case I probably can not win with this kind common sense since constitution clearly (for me) says it is allowed and I think more would see it this way.
I have no clear answer on your question and I hope you can enlighten me of your interpretation.
To go on a side road: Constitution could be changed, a good alternative for this, so the common sense comes more forward, would be in my eyes:
"Distribution of weapons is not allowed by anyone or anything, except ammunations."
Note that I said distribution here, not trading. Trading would be in exchange of something (as it is now), distribution any change of owner, also those changes involving a gift.
Or maybe I should look at the question in a totally different way.. Surprise me. ;)
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Firstly, /ad is overpriced.
Secondly, Aragorn said in-game to someone how is a legal product illegal to sell - guns - so kind of said that they are not il-legal to sell, this is what I understood.
SA:MP Law, government and general setup is just primitive and unorganized.
Actual server rules are also unorganized.
It says somewhere if a rule is not written down then it's not a rule (not in reference to this specific topic) .
IVMP is adopting a much more better choice in such affairs, it's not limiting peoples role-play but providing much more of it - and unlike in samp it does not always rely on scripts (like formerly /engine and current fire missions).
Look how long it took for the constitution to be made... (no offense to the ones who made it but it could also be changed a bit)
Leave for IVMP then and stop moaning.
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It was from my side not meant that way. It was my interpretation of the constitution/law that I think would be used in court. And since I am FBI, I already quite fast think in such ways.
[This is not meant in a provoking way, but] it is not you who interprets the laws, it is the courts who do that. As a member of FBI, you just enforce them.
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it is not you who interprets the laws, it is the courts who do that. As a member of FBI, you just enforce them.
What?
How can he enforce them without first interpreting them? :conf:
That doesn't make any sense.
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What?
How can he enforce them without first interpreting them? :conf:
That doesn't make any sense.
It's kind of hard to explain without first knowing how officers work IRL, but basically the law is laid out to officers based on reasonable suspicion and probable cause. Officers cannot make an arrest for a crime or detain someone without valid reasoning, and proof of the crime committed being linked to the person. Because of this, they cannot interpret the law itself, but just instead prove that it was broken, similar to a lawyer in court who does the same thing, but proves it to the judge and jury in a way they can understand, alongside the evidence collected by police. Going further into this, the branch of government, usually Executive in some countries, although may be different in others, writes the laws. There is the final branch of government, the court system, (also known as the Judicial Branch), which interprets the laws and any crimes committed as valid or invalid because of such. That is why you must prove a case in court of crimes committed in the United States Of America. If we follow the same basic idea, seeing as ARPD is based roughly off of LAPD, and that the United States Of Argonath in some aspects has basings from the United States Of America, then the same general idea would apply here, but since we are a free RP community that does not handle strict RP nor enforce it, my explanation holds little meaning to those who are wishing to understand the reasoning because I cannot explain it in a simple way that would make sense to our community.
In short though, there are many unwritten rules and ideas in Argonath which are just the way they are because of how things are set up here, and although they are based on things from RL at many times, from many countries and cultures, we cannot possibly explain every reasoning for the things we do and how we do them here because in itself it would be entirely confusing, so we rely on our "common sense" of knowledge of these basic ideas and tend to not question them, such as why police were allowed to arrest suspects before the Constitution was created to state such. Sometimes things here are just based on an idea and never really written down.
I know this is long and confusing, and I do apologize for that, but it was the most simple way I can explain how it works. As for asking specifically on how they can enforce them without interpreting them, everything in life always has to be interpreted, so I understand your reason for asking, however, from an "officialized" standpoint, it is not law enforcement's job to interpret what is legal or illegal, but rather enforce what is legal and illegal, and if someone does something illegal, prove it with evidence, including being a witness to the crime if the criminal is caught breaking the law in front of them. Obviously our court system here is different, so proving it only goes as far as an arrest and jailing, rather than a court hearing and conviction, but it is just a simplified form of many real-life situations that hold the same, general idea.
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Seriously Sugar, tl;dr.
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Seriously Sugar, tl;dr.
If you don't want to read my response, don't bother posting a response to it.
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Seriously Sugar, tl;dr.
im with him for that one... can anyone tell us the main points made in that jumble of Chinese lettering?
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It was from my side not meant that way. It was my interpretation of the constitution/law that I think would be used in court. And since I am FBI, I already quite fast think in such ways.
If I have to interpret this question, you are saying that I see a transaction in any shop as legal. In this case I was speaking about a weapon transaction in an ammunation. I definitely do not think that like a heroin transaction in a burger shot is legal, neither a weapon deal in a bistro.
As I don't really know how this question is ment, regarding the above thing I stated, I will answer this as a transaction of weapons inside any ammunation. And yes indeed, now you say, in this combination, it is tricky. This question can be seen and answered in many ways in my opinion. In general you can say about a transaction done in a shop that the final responsible person is the owner. However, direct responsible is the one behind the cash register. I would say that both (staff behind the cash register and owner) are responsible.
Now the question were this was all coming from. If it is legal for any person to do a weapon transaction in an ammunation? You make me doubt... Since I am FBI and sometimes I have to interpret the constitution directly as it is read and as only law way, then I would still say it is legal. However, common sense here would answer the opposite. With common sense it is weird that trading of weapons outside an ammunation is not allowed, but inside it is. So then it would only be the ammunation (so the staff/owner) that can trade weapons. But in a court case I probably can not win with this kind common sense since constitution clearly (for me) says it is allowed and I think more would see it this way.
I have no clear answer on your question and I hope you can enlighten me of your interpretation.
To go on a side road: Constitution could be changed, a good alternative for this, so the common sense comes more forward, would be in my eyes:
"Distribution of weapons is not allowed by anyone or anything, except ammunations."
Note that I said distribution here, not trading. Trading would be in exchange of something (as it is now), distribution any change of owner, also those changes involving a gift.
Or maybe I should look at the question in a totally different way.. Surprise me. ;)
As said this is a trick question.
If you would tell the owner of the shop is responsible for trading that happens in his shop, then if you find an illegal deal the owner of the shop could be held responsible for not having staff or security to stop illegal trading in his shop.
This would not be alarming for ammunation owners (as with the pricing system buying illegal weapons while paying two entrance fees will make the deal pretty useless) however this would be extremely alarming news for casino owners, considering the ammount of non-staff gambling is done. With the rule that casino owners will lose their casino if staff or owner is found scamming, this interpretation would almost certainly cost them a big headache, after all they could be held responsible for any scam going on in a casino.
As said when considering the amount of profit to be made from dealing if weapons were to be purchased in legal way, taking away an entrace fee from the profit would mean that no deal with non-hacked weapons would be made between players in an ammunation. As such, this is not a matter for the constitution, but for the admin team.
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Actual server rules are also unorganized.
It says somewhere if a rule is not written down then it's not a rule (not in reference to this specific topic) .
IVMP is adopting a much more better choice in such affairs, it's not limiting peoples role-play but providing much more of it - and unlike in samp it does not always rely on scripts (like formerly /engine and current fire missions).
It seems I must check the IVMP rules and delete a lot.
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im with him for that one... can anyone tell us the main points made in that jumble of Chinese lettering?
Welcome to the forum. We post ideas and topics here with which we read and discuss. If you don't like this web software, don't use it. Pure and simple.
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How did you guys go this off-topic? If you want to discuss about guns being legal or illegal to trade make a topic for it, and don't spam this one down.
My question still remains; are we or are we not allowed to disguise an illegal advertisement to look like a legal one?
In case we are not, then why? The rule is about illegal ads, and not about illegal deals. As long as the /ad is legal it does not conflict with the rule at all. If the legal ad leads to an illegal deal then it's not the administrators problem because it does not conflict with a rule.
Let the cops handle the crimes, god dammit. That what they're here for.
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Told you before. Better not watch if ad content is "legal" or not, but what the deal is about. If you're dealing illegal stuff, no matter what is the ad content, you're still dealing illegal stuff (redundant, yes I know).
One thing is advertising a legal business that is a front for illegal actions, another is advertising illegal items with plays on words.
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Told you before. Better not watch if ad content is "legal" or not, but what the deal is about. If you're dealing illegal stuff, no matter what is the ad content, you're still dealing illegal stuff (redundant, yes I know).
One thing is advertising a legal business that is a front for illegal actions, another is advertising illegal items with plays on words.
Exactly.
To answer your question Comrade about going off-topic with the weapon dealing legality, Grzesiek's post pretty much covers why we were discussing it. It's somewhat off-topic, yes, but it held relevancy to a user's question regarding the topic's original post.
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it is not law enforcement's job to interpret what is legal or illegal, but rather enforce what is legal and illegal,
These are the same process. You cannot arrest someone if you have not first interpreted the law and analysed the situation around this interpretation.
It seems I must check the IVMP rules and delete a lot.
Sorry to ask in such a simple manner, but why do you support unwritten rules that only regulars know?
You have said in the past that the intention is people learn these rules by getting punished for breaking them. Surely it would be easier to simply write them down so people can know about them before being punished? It would also mean admins would not have to form personal interpretations of the basic rule list as they have done up until now.
This is especially true for changing rules, as even regulars cannot account for a rule change that is not announced.
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Told you before. Better not watch if ad content is "legal" or not, but what the deal is about. If you're dealing illegal stuff, no matter what is the ad content, you're still dealing illegal stuff (redundant, yes I know).
But the rule covers only the /ad, not the actual deal. By covering the /ad with something legal instead of illegal, one is not theoretically breaking the rule.
I don't see the problem here.
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These are the same process. You cannot arrest someone if you have not first interpreted the law and analysed the situation around this interpretation.
Understanding the laws is a bit different from interpreting them. What I mean by interpreting them is on a level that defines what the law means, rather than how you think it applies in a certain situation. I know the wording itself is confusing. It's a bit difficult to explain.
But the rule covers only the /ad, not the actual deal. By covering the /ad with something legal instead of illegal, one is not theoretically breaking the rule.
I don't see the problem here.
The problem is people have gotten very lazy and made it fairly obvious that they are abusing the ad. Think of it this way: in real life you put an ad on TV to sell something. You wouldn't put up a fake ad selling lawncare products when you are actually trying to sell marijuana. The same basic concept applies here. If you have a legal business as a front for your illegal products, and the legal business actually exists, there's nothing wrong with advertising it since you're actually advertising the legal portion of your work instead of the illegal stuff going on behind it, even if the messages in the ad are coded. Grzesiek stated the difference pretty well too:
One thing is advertising a legal business that is a front for illegal actions, another is advertising illegal items with plays on words.
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Understanding the laws is a bit different from interpreting them. What I mean by interpreting them is on a level that defines what the law means, rather than how you think it applies in a certain situation. I know the wording itself is confusing. It's a bit difficult to explain.
I consider "interpreting" as reading something vague and abstract and applying that to a realistic and possibly complex situation.
For example, one cannot arrest for speeding before first knowing the speeding laws.
Ok, so 80 kmph in cities, 120 kmph elsewhere, apart from freeways which are unlimited. Seems simple enough, but that's the entire law.
It comes down to the officer to interpret that law and decide for himself what constitutes city territory against country territory (for example). The law is too vague to be simply read and understood, some level of further interpretation is required (and thus inconsistencies will no doubt appear).
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I consider "interpreting" as reading something vague and abstract and applying that to a realistic and possibly complex situation.
For example, one cannot arrest for speeding before first knowing the speeding laws.
Ok, so 80 kmph in cities, 120 kmph elsewhere, apart from freeways which are unlimited. Seems simple enough, but that's the entire law.
It comes down to the officer to interpret that law and decide for himself what constitutes city territory against country territory (for example). The law is too vague to be simply read and understood, some level of further interpretation is required (and thus inconsistencies will no doubt appear).
Your usage of interpreting would be correct then.
What I meant by interpreting in my example was the law's actual meaning and usage, and not so much how an officer would apply it to a situation, but more-so what the law itself was created for to begin with.
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LoL, and you call this a RP server, with such crappy rules...
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LoL, and you call this a RP server, with such crappy rules...
Refeer to my last reply :)
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LoL, and you call this a RP server, with such crappy rules...
IF you don't like it, you can leave. We do not want moaners here.
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LoL, and you call this a RP server, with such crappy rules...
Only idiots need to write advertisements to sell his/her drugs. Can't be annoyed finding costumers? Don't deal with it.
Pick real life as a good example of this; would one local/famous drug dealer ever advertise his stack? No, because that's like writing "CATCH ME" on his forehead.
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IF you don't like it, you can leave. We do not want moaners here.
Half of this community are moaners...
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Half of this community are moaners...
Then they can leave too.
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in real life
Don't pull that shit here.
In real life cops don't kill for speeding.
In real life we die when we crash into a wall at 200km/h.
In real life we don't carry around guns 24/7.
In real life we don't respawn.
This isn't f**king real life, deal with it.
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Half of this community are moaners...
And you belong to that half part ;) You doing anything better? Nope ;)...
[chase greggor]attention whore[/chase greggor]
I feel that HQ really needs to re-write a few standards for the rules... As it's much confusing for everybody as it seems...
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Don't pull that shit here.
In real life cops don't kill for speeding.
In real life we die when we crash into a wall at 200km/h.
In real life we don't carry around guns 24/7.
In real life don't respawn.
This isn't f**king real life, deal with it.
This may not be real life, but what do you think we are roleplaying exactly? This isn't the style of roleplay where we are playing WoW or DnD. This is a modified, simplified version of real life ROLE PLAYING. You can roleplay all of that IG if you choose to.
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We are role-playing GTA. Not real life.
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Sorry to ask in such a simple manner, but why do you support unwritten rules that only regulars know?
You have said in the past that the intention is people learn these rules by getting punished for breaking them. Surely it would be easier to simply write them down so people can know about them before being punished? It would also mean admins would not have to form personal interpretations of the basic rule list as they have done up until now.
This is especially true for changing rules, as even regulars cannot account for a rule change that is not announced.
Very simple. There are no unwritten rules. There is only interpretation that may vary due to influences of real life and other (lower level) servers.
If you look around you in real life you will see that there is a tendency which is similar to what is going on with the request for rules. 50 years a go everything was allowed unless explicitly forbidden. Currently everything is forbidden except explicitly allowed.
We follow the old style where you are free to do what you want, as long as you do not get noticed in mass abuse. The /ad is a good example. there was a freedom within roleplay as long as not every second ad was used for advertising illegal busines..
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We are role-playing GTA. Not real life.
Aside from the fact that GTA focuses mainly on a very odd criminal life, GTA is based on real life too. I'm not saying we are "omg strict" real-life RP. I'm saying the basis of our roleplay is from real life stuff.
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Very simple. There are no unwritten rules.
What about the very rule we're discussing in this thread?
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If we compare the Illegal Ad problem and the list of Argonath Rules, the two closest rules for it to breach are the NO SPAMMING (most ads nowadays are drug or gun ads) and NO SCRIPT ABUSE (the way ad is used to stir trouble, such as getting suspected on purpose).
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Neither of those rules directly indicates that illegal ads are not allowed.
Either of the rules you stated would take a massive amount of situational interpretation (and personal opinion) to arrive at this conclusion.
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What about the very rule we're discussing in this thread?
It is an admin directive nort a rule. :D
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Well then why are we being punished for breaking a rule that is not a rule after all?
I'd still say that let the admins deal with illegal adverts, but let the cops deal with the theoretically fully legal but suspicious adverts.
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Well then why are we being punished for breaking a rule that is not a rule after all?
I'd still say that let the admins deal with illegal adverts, but let the cops deal with the theoretically fully legal but suspicious adverts.
No you are punished for making illegal ads, which is trespassing the boundaries of roleplay.
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No you are punished for making illegal ads, which is trespassing the boundaries of roleplay.
So you're saying we are in-fact allowed to disguise our ads to seem legal as it does not trespass the boundaries of roleplay, and rather allows for more interesting ones to take place?
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So you're saying we are in-fact allowed to disguise or ads to seem legal as it does not trespass the boundaries of roleplay, and rather allows for more interesting ones to take place?
From the sounds of it, yes. It seems that the illegal ad itself is not a rulebreak, but the fact that it's "trespassing the boundaries of roleplay" as he said is the issue, so disguising it with legal things that you are prepared to sell as a front shouldn't break this rule, although I can't confirm this myself.
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Sugar's first post in this topic says it all, ye want to sell heroin/weed or any drugs? Grab a Mr Whoopee and sell "Ice Cream" just like in the Vice City Singleplayerer missions. Tough, what about illegal adverts of selling Roleplaying drugs/conflict diamonds or anything like that? For example, back in the days I had a big scale of Conflict Diamonds market, selling RP diamonds. Will I get punished if I advert a roleplaying business?
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This makes it more realistic for criminals and more difficult. When illegal advertisements were made, cops didn't even react at them 90 percent of time. Now criminals will need to communicate among each others more realistically to be able to buy and sell illegal goods.
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I gave up about the term "realism" in Argonath more than a year ago. Now I am on the GTAism side :cop:
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I gave up about the term "realism" in Argonath more than a year ago. Now I am on the GTAism side :cop:
Well it all depends on what you mean by realism too. Some people think it means strict RP based on how things IRL work exactly word for word, others see it as something where the RP is GTA-based, but more of a fun form of real life, similar to games like the Sims with which you pretend to play a life role without all the complicated details. Unfortunately, because people have different views of this same thing, there's heavy conflict over the term when it's used in Argonath because of it's many meanings, so people tend to assume it's either to break the Argo Vision, or it's to make everything how that one person sees it should be. I like your example though. The only reason why I refrain from saying things should be like GTA is because the single-player itself has many aspects which we don't use or allow in Argo itself, such as randomly running around blowing people's heads off for our own amusement lol. I wish there was a better way to describe things in a way we could all understand without conflict.
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Thumb up to SugarD, he got it all right.
Illegal ads that suggest illegal activity are illegal, especialy if too obvious. Use your creativity.
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Thumb up to SugarD, he got it all right.
Illegal ads that suggest illegal activity are illegal, especialy if too obvious. Use your creativity.
Creativity got me kicked numerous times.
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Creativity got me kicked numerous times.
Got to conceal it a little better then. If the cops won't know, the admins won't either ;)
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Got to conceal it a little better then. If the cops won't know, the admins won't either ;)
All of the /ad's made to purchase illegal materials are obvious. But I don't think 'Purchasing Petrol canisters - $80/galon' is a good enough excuse to kick for it?
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Don't go purchasing/selling in /ad ... Already too obvious... ``Selling yellow sugar`` for example is damn obvious ... ``Buying heat system`` ... ``Selling metal`` ... I have seen them....
Instead, use a code to tell you are in business or looking for business ... Find a way to make contact, not to directly sell.
Once you get a dealer or customer, keep their number and call them, offering them a 10% discout on electronic appliance... But seriously do something creative ...
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Now what is this all crap about???
Who and why the fuck started pointing here that Aragorn made an unwritten rule? Reffering to my post they did fucking missed (on purpose for sure) my words:
It is not the case of ban, but if player continues advertisements after admin warning he can be punished more...
What is not clear here? It is not a rule, it is a directive... Admins are acting if player IGNORES admins directive...
Now about Illegal adverticements where from it all came...
From you, my dear moaners...
Once there were illegal ads... Cops were suspecting those with ads immediately... Lets guess what kind of moaning was on Argonath... Oh shi....!!!! Cops are abusers!!!... Explanations that cops have all rights to suspect player even without being near him did not help... You, my dear moaners, already forgot that stuff, yeah? Well, some of you do not remember as it was a long time ago...
As usual cops are guilty on Argonath... Cops saw ads and suspected... That criminals moaned as abuse... And what? To allow criminals to advertise an illegal stuff - cops come with misunderstanding (and I can understand them)... Why the fuck guys are advertising heroin and weed on all country and cops are not allowed to suspect them even...
But that was not the end of the story... Illegal ads were used by those who did not want to kill cop but wanted to be wanted to get the "official" right to kill... And server was flooded of illegal stuff...
Since that time the patience finished and illegal ads on server were stopped as a non roleplay stuff, which brings confuses as well and leads to incorrect actions/reactions...
As a non roleplay stuff it can be warned by admin...
Now all moaners calm down, take a breath and read again what was said here... And do realize that you started a hell of loud arguing about... nothing...
And the last... Those who will try to avoid this directive by any ways will be really punished... For doing it on purpose (cheating)...
As for new players who do not know about illegal ads - as I said - there is no any threat - admin just explains him, warns if repeats and thats all...
Topic locked...
I will not for sure write the THIRD explanation... Either go read my posts or use search engine on forums...