Argonath RPG - A World of its own
GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: Cutt3r on January 20, 2012, 01:50:20 pm
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Hi,
Gangwars have always been a matter of great interest, controversy and of course, debate. We used to have controlled gangwars earlier on where an admin would be watching. An early attempt at this idea was great and well accepted but it did generate it's share of complaints/debates.
After a good deal of thinking & discussion, we have a detailed idea on how to possibly pull off a gangwar without too many complaints. A broad outline of the idea is given below(just the basic points). The actual idea/scripts/maps which is on another board of forums will be presented to you much later. When I say much later, it may be as late as May 2012, as I am heading into inactivity from today. Of course, I will visit now and then & post my thoughts on your ideas in this topic, but expect no word about the actual detailed idea/scripts/maps which was presented to HQ before May. What we do require from you is your ideas/suggestions to the gangwar idea so that I can finish this off as soon as I return. Many heads may be better than one, so give me your ideas and I will add them as required if they are already not in the idea that we have formulated.
Broad outline of the idea:
1. Gangwars will have a non refundable joining fee on a per person basis. In case a gang member's game crashes before the start of the war, his fee gets refunded but will not rejoin the gangwar.
2. Minimum of 5, max of 10 members in the gangwar.
3. Gang members will be chosen with script support, teleported to the gang war arena(currently a choice of 3 maps, two of which are new & to be designed).
4. Admins will be involved in the gangwar to oversee it, although, as there is script support, their role may be minimal.
5. Gangwar starts after both teams are ready, when a team is completely wiped out, the other team is apparently the winner, remaining gang members teleport back to LS.
6. None of the members in the gangwar become suspects even though they may have killed someone in the gangwar.
7. Once the gangwar ends, neither team will participate in another gangwar for the period of 2 weeks.
8. Civilians(the guys with white names, not the scripted job employees) will be allowed to watch the gangwar.
9. In order to participate in the gangwar, an application will be made with requisite details.
The actual idea which we have is very vast and detailed. It has 1,556 words in it, if that was any indication of how detailed it is. So, what I am looking for is not the finer details, HQ will cover that part. What I need from you is to know what you want to see, which is not present in the main points above. The ideas you give us, if it is included in the original gangwar idea we have, will receive a reply from me or other HQ as "Included".
Think hard and well about this idea. If successful this will benefit the entire server. We need constructive, well thought off inputs from you. Before you make a post with suggestions, do not include anything:
1. Without due thought
2. Which is unconnected with this topic
3. Which is not possible to be scripted. You need not know scripting to know if something is possible or not, just use common sense.
Cutt3r
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Looks like nice idea even with involving "DM" in RPG server.
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involving "DM" in RPG server.
Taken care of in the original idea ;)
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I don't like this idea at all.
It involves no roleplay and it reminds me more of a DM fight.
What happened to the massive gang-wars that were accepted back in 2008/2009? I remember these big rivalries between Corleone and Stracci, I never had so much fun. The idea to implement a feature such as this just shows how immature the community has become, when we can't even have gangwars without a massive amount of rules around it.
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I don't like this idea at all.
It involves no roleplay and it reminds me more of a DM fight.
What happened to the massive gang-wars that were accepted back in 2008/2009? I remember these big rivalries between Corleone and Stracci, I never had so much fun. The idea to implement a feature such as this just shows how immature the community has become, when we can't even have gangwars without a massive amount of rules around it.
There are some who know when/how to fight, there are some who don't know anything about such matters either. The system with script support and rules merely ensures that you can continue to enjoy the roleplay, whilst sticking to the rules at hand.
Immaturity is a subject matter of perception. With script support, if players are able to have a more fun time, why not include it eh?
Now, constructive ideas/suggestions please
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I kind of like this idea but also concur with Alan. This looks more like a script that consists of no whatsoever roleplay.
Point 1- I do not mind that, but what's the point? Everyone will just pay for it unless it's something like a 100k.
Point 2- Having minimum number seems fine but having a limit is just awkward. Any particular reason of limiting it?
Point 3- The teleporting seems more of a DM zone idea. Getting teleported to kill is just DM.
Point 5- As usual, happens when someone wins. However I don't support the teleportation at all.
Point 6- Again, disagree. They killed someone, they should get suspected unless it is taken as a real life roleplay.
Point 8- lol wtf >.>
Point 9- Not really needed. Informing the administration would be alright.
And about point 4 and 7- Those seem fine.
Edit- What about situations when a rival group just turns in the location of a gang and starts a roleplay which leads to a war?
Another question, what was wrong with the old gang war validation system? We can just use it again and with that adding the name of players who will be taking part in the situation.
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Hi,
Hello.
1. Gangwars will have a non refundable joining fee on a per person basis.
Wait, are you supposed to pay for gang wars?
2. Minimum of 5, max of 10 members in the gangwar.
When 58th Street Conecta was active, we reached fifty+ members. Let's say we had at least fifteen members at most of the times when it was up; making the maximum of ten members will frankly disallow fellow and most likely loyal members to be denied from the gangwar, THEIR gang is in.
3. Gang members will be chosen with script support, teleported to the gang war arena(currently a choice of 3 maps, two of which are new & to be designed).
A war arena sounds a lot like a deathmatch slash ultra freeroam server with no whatsoever role-play feeling of any territory or what you're generally fighting for.
4. Admins will be involved in the gangwar to oversee it, although, as there is script support, their role may be minimal.
An admin watching over a gangwar is always appreciated.
5. Gangwar starts after both teams are ready, when a team is completely wiped out, the other team is apparently the winner, remaining gang members teleport back to LS.
6. None of the members in the gangwar become suspects even though they may have killed someone in the gangwar.
I'll use point five and six in the same column.
You have literally just wiped another gang out, you won; but you should not be suspected for it? Yet again, being a criminal for such happenings is part of the game, part of the gang mentality. There will always be the fight, the last man standing-type of scenario, then the pursuit and escape from Mr. and Mrs. Cop. That's how it should be.
7. Once the gangwar ends, neither team will participate in another gangwar for the period of 2 weeks.
Two weeks is a long time, especially when you are spending a lot of time on the server.
Let me have one conclusion of the idea.
The original feeling of being a gang member will be removed, and instead the two gangs will be placed in war arenas where they will fight each other. They cannot have any sort of rematch during a two week-period. The winners will not be suspected for killing the opposite gang, and both of the gangs will have to pay for their entry to the event. Back in the days (Inferno 9 vs. 58th, Stracci vs. Corleone etcetera), these violent and bloody fights was the bomb, this is what I take with me when I look back on Argonath and it's giving me goosebumps. Unfortunately, memorable happenings like these will no longer occur, and be placed on three various war arenas, which is in my opinion, one step in the wrong direction.
I hope it was constructive enough.
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3. Gang members will be chosen with script support, teleported to the gang war arena(currently a choice of 3 maps, two of which are new & to be designed).
5. Gangwar starts after both teams are ready, when a team is completely wiped out, the other team is apparently the winner, remaining gang members teleport back to LS.
6. None of the members in the gangwar become suspects even though they may have killed someone in the gangwar.
Teleporting to a gang war arena?
(http://i39.tinypic.com/im0b2r.jpg)
just use common sense.
Common sense is not so common here. Thank you for demonstrating.
Cutter, you should be a Paruni manager... Seriously...
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As said in the first post, I am interested in seeing more suggestions to add to the idea. I do not mind the questioning of the idea as such, as it is incomplete, the whole idea will make sense to you. I have given the broad framework. I need additional ideas/suggestions from you.
In response to your post:
I kind of like this idea but also concur with Alan. This looks more like a script that consists of no whatsoever roleplay.
This is one of the fundamental aspects of the server. Why would you think we would not include this while making the idea? :) It is factored.
Point 1- I do not mind that, but what's the point? Everyone will just pay for it unless it's something like a 100k.
Point is that the fee is set at such a level that it would discourage a gang from engaging in battle for frivolous reasons.
Point 2- Having minimum number seems fine but having a limit is just awkward. Any particular reason of limiting it?
One admin on 20 players a side(imagine). Although the admin need not oversee it, if he chooses to(and most likely will oversee it), how would he manage it with 40 players on the gangwar?
Point 3- The teleporting seems more of a DM zone idea. Getting teleported to kill is just DM.
I beg to differ. The idea is to put the gang war members in an enclosed location so that any new player does not get the idea of a DM server. Furthermore, being in an enclosed location makes it easier to manage the whole show.
I wonder why you felt getting teleported to kill is just DM. Too much ParUni? :D
Point 5- As usual, happens when someone wins. However I don't support the teleportation at all.
If we don't teleport you, you will remain stuck in closed walls for ever :D. Your rp will involve the following for eternity:
/me stares at the blood stained walls.
/me continues staring at the blood stained walls and thinking 'if only I could get out of here'
Point 6- Again, disagree. They killed someone, they should get suspected unless it is taken as a real life roleplay.
Gang members have already had their share of action in the gang war. One of the drawbacks of the old system was 4-6 guys cruising around LS hunting cops. This is taken care of with such a point. For this limited purpose alone, consider it as real life roleplay, if you so want, although I would see it as sticking within acceptable levels of RP.
Point 8- lol wtf >.>
Some people may want to roleplay a newspaper reporter and report the gangwar. Some others may want to just watch some action. Why not?
Point 9- Not really needed. Informing the administration would be alright.
It is needed, as it is the basis for ensuring that the reasons for the gangwar are not frivolous.
Edit- What about situations when a rival group just turns in the location of a gang and starts a roleplay which leads to a war?
Once implemented, any such shooting sprees may be treated as team deathmatching. There should not be any war outside of these rules. You have a disagreement with a gang, you apply for the gangwar under controlled conditions.
Another question, what was wrong with the old gang war validation system? We can just use it again and with that adding the name of players who will be taking part in the situation.
I wish you were there to know. Past is past, I will not deliberate on the old system anymore. It is unnecessary and a waste of my time.
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I need additional ideas/suggestions from you.
Here's an idea - let's rename the server to Argonath TDM right away, shall we?
It will save us all a lot of time and help avoid misunderstandings. :rules:
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We don't even have gang-wars anymore. Just a couple of orange-men shooting at each other and eventually at the blue-men.
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I do not really like the idea of teleporting to an arena. Gang wars should all stem from some form of roleplay reason, and taking it to a kind of game arena - that is not a gang war. That is like having a paintball fight to determine the winner of some gang dispute - it's not really a war at all - it's just team deathmatch arena.
This system would encourage gangs to make wars just to have a ranking system (like a TDM clan ladder for instance).
Part of the fun of legitimate "gang wars" is that they take part across the map, involve vehicles etc.
(3) I would propose: Do not use arenas, instead distinguish gang members in gang war with different name colour. They do not become suspects if they kill other gang members in the gang war, but are susceptible to cop interference - so would stay out of public areas. If they are /su and killed by cops then that would count as a death in the gang war.
Obviously if they wished, the gangs could play cops to their advantage and use more tactics (location... vehicles etc) rather than boring DM arena.
Any civilian not involved in the gang war who kills a gang member gets a automatic disarm and ajail for deathmatching. Gang member can return (still classed as gang war). Only kills from cops or other gang members result in a gang war death.
Summary
1. Agreed
2. Agreed
3. Script support agreed - do not support arenas - boring and is just TDM. Involve whole map, make war susceptible to cop interference (but not civilian) and it will force wars to take place in far out locations.
4. Admins can see the death reports. If civilian interferes (kills gang member without being part of war) auto disarm and jail.
5. Agreed. TP them to LS so they cannot rejoin as civilian (no longer gang)
6. Agreed, unless they are /su from other things and caught by cops.
7. Agreed.
8. With my proposed changes civilians would not be able to watch as the fight would be dynamic.
9. Agreed
The largest problem with my idea is that civilians who sympathise with one gang or those who will follow or watch may begin to interfere with the fight, taking sides and start shooting. Killing would land them auto punishment but nothing I can think of to stop them dealing damage. :S
Main disagreement from me here - I would not consider it "RP" the moment a gang is TP to some random arena just so they can shoot at each other. I am not RLRP fan, but I do like to keep RP somewhat feasible.
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Regarding the old system of war validation, it was popular but had so many restrictions that it was unworkable.
The way you should consider Cutter's ideas are as seeds. The overall long term aim is to allow for viable power struggles between organised groups of criminals, to promote criminal roleplay in a way that is not instantly shut down by the administration because it has fallen foul of the rules or immedately attracts the attention of the police who overwhelm it within moments.
Gang wars occur daily in the server, they always lead to mass deathmatching but quite possibly have role play backgrounds. Regardless of their backgrounds the end result is the same, mass deathmatching that disrupts the game play of others and has to be stopped.
What Cutter is trying to do is to introduce a way to prevent having to stop them, so those same players who engage in huge gang related battles now can do so without breaking the rules. Just run with it, think about it and try to imagine how you would like to see it developed. We will listen to your ideas. If you don't like the idea of gang wars at all, don't worry about it, it won't affect you anyway.
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1. Agreed.
2. Agreed about maximum and minimum,but it could be more then 10 gang members.
3. Not agreed - If you'll be teleported to a "gangwar" it will be the exact as typing /dm 6 in ParUni,and it will be boring inside an arena and will be exact as TDM.
4. Agreed,admins is always appreciated to overview the gang war.
5. As stated in A3.
6. Not agreed,this "gangwar" is the same as Killing event,shouldn't be unsuspected if he murdered someone,since its RP server.
7. Agreed.
8. Agreed.
9. Agreed.
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No to everything. This would only further induce people making/joining groups to have a legal reason to deathmatch (as in get guns and shoot people being the main point of the game). As if that's not already happening...
Furthermore, if it's going to get scripted, actual role-played gang wars will lose on validity - just like everything that gets scripted, because of the "if it's scripted, not using the script doesn't count" logic. Same with drugs, same with the whole hitman script.
No group should want to have a gang war out of nothing, because that just shows the group is set towards deathmatching. If anything, a gang war should be an outcome that's a finale to a bigger role-play scenario between gangs that revolves around a valid point (just "being enemies"/"he is from another gang" is not a valid reason and is a plain deathmatching excuse).
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Regarding the old system of war validation, it was popular but had so many restrictions that it was unworkable.
What makes you think that a new system will be "workable"?
The way you should consider Cutter's ideas are as seeds. The overall long term aim is to allow for viable power struggles between organised groups of criminals, to promote criminal roleplay in a way that is not instantly shut down by the administration because it has fallen foul of the rules or immedately attracts the attention of the police who overwhelm it within moments.
Not to be pedantic, but criminal role-play is not about gang wars only.
Gang wars occur daily in the server, they always lead to mass deathmatching but quite possibly have role play backgrounds. Regardless of their backgrounds the end result is the same, mass deathmatching that disrupts the game play of others and has to be stopped.
Legalizing DM inside an arena will not help you in preventing it outside of said arena.
What Cutter is trying to do is to introduce a way to prevent having to stop them, so those same players who engage in huge gang related battles now can do so without breaking the rules. Just run with it, think about it and try to imagine how you would like to see it developed. We will listen to your ideas. If you don't like the idea of gang wars at all, don't worry about it, it won't affect you anyway.
I love how you guys suggest adding complicated scripts, while even /exit is bugged. :D
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Oh come on.
This is bad.
This makes me think of "dm zones" with all the script support and arena's.. Just go to the enemy's hood and pop pop.
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Well the idea itself sounds more like a last attempt to bring back the criminal organisations without tampering with the SAPD.
When someone says "That guy is from a criminal organisation", the first thing you guys think is "The only thing he wants is to shoot cops", and to minimize the cophuning/DM you guys came up with a "DM but only criminals allowed in."
Broad outline of the idea:
1. Gangwars will have a non refundable joining fee on a per person basis. In case a gang member's game crashes before the start of the war, his fee gets refunded but will not rejoin the gangwar.
2. Minimum of 5, max of 10 members in the gangwar.
3. Gang members will be chosen with script support, teleported to the gang war arena(currently a choice of 3 maps, two of which are new & to be designed).
4. Admins will be involved in the gangwar to oversee it, although, as there is script support, their role may be minimal.
5. Gangwar starts after both teams are ready, when a team is completely wiped out, the other team is apparently the winner, remaining gang members teleport back to LS.
6. None of the members in the gangwar become suspects even though they may have killed someone in the gangwar.
7. Once the gangwar ends, neither team will participate in another gangwar for the period of 2 weeks.
8. Civilians(the guys with white names, not the scripted job employees) will be allowed to watch the gangwar.
9. In order to participate in the gangwar, an application will be made with requisite details.
1.Are we supposed to pay for our gangwars? Is this some kind of "State" service you're providing? "Pay for DM"
2.Like many other have said, more than 10 members should be allowed to join, however the members should have something connected to the "family" they are supporting.
Otherwise people can just choose someone from the street.
3.Sounds good, otherwise the cops will stop us.
4.I'd like it if 2 or more admins were available for this, two opinions are better than one.
And since it probably won't be a daily occurence due to the limit, once per two weeks, and we are how many active criminal organisations?
5.Nothing to add here.
6.Sounds fair, I don't want it to become a DM fest seconds after the gangwar has ended.
7.Restrictions' a ***** :(
8.Sounds cool.
9.Fine.
Do you actually think that some gangwar script will bring back criminality?
Maybe some small time groups that will close 1 week later, but not the bigger ones.
Like Mario_Rinna said, criminal role play is not about gang wars only.
And I feel offended that the higher ranked administrators in the server believe it.
Not supported.
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I hope it was constructive enough.
Yes, this sort of post is what I want, not a suggestion for joining the ParUni division :lol:. Of course, with a radical post, such comments are expected, I just wish they were less moronic.
That being said:
1. It would be great to have the gang war members as suspects. But (1)considering the bloodshed/action that gang members are part of; (2) Cop hunting that normally occurs when a group of 4-6 people move around in cars &; (3) The admin time involved in spectating such cases, we have decided against it - unless there is really good reason.
2. Consider the time of 2 weeks as a recuperation time - you end up in hospital or such. We cannot have gangwars without such a break. This is also another method of discouraging frivolous battles. A gang will think hard of whether it should invest time and money in a reason for the war & they will think well about it, when such a clause is inserted.
3. I just called in gangwar arena. If that sounds like a DM matter, which I agree it does, we will change it to gangwar location. Nonetheless, the teleport is an essential part of this process. We cannot have it in open locations because (1) New players may see it and feel that anything goes on server, i.e. it is a DM server (2) Admins may not be able to control the whole aspect of the war when the gangwar is in an open terrain (3) The idea concerning civilians watching it and possibly generating additional roleplay from the matter becomes impossible with an open terrain.
Unfortunately, memorable happenings like these will no longer occur, and be placed on three various war arenas, which is in my opinion, one step in the wrong direction.
Yes, this is unfortunate. But if there is any hope of bringing back an iota of such memorable happenings, such a step is needed. The fact that it will be in 3 locations(note, not war arenas anymore :D), is a small price to pay for the larger good of actually having a gangwar and being able to settle things mano-a-mano, with no moaning of who deathmatched whom and who lost weapons without roleplay.
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Teleporting gangsters to 'gang war arena' ? that just sounds wrong..
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I'm neutral on this but I would like to drop an idea in case it will be implied now or in future.
Instead of teleporting them in a custom made gang war arena it would be better if it can happen in any place, what I mean is that the players should have the ability to decide in which location they want it to happen so once they have agreed on it and use the command to join the 'fight' it will change their Virtual World so they will be alone in that world but in the same location, that will give the ability for more than 1 fights ongoing at the same time but also more realism in the new gangwar system.
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Yes, this sort of post is what I want, not a suggestion for joining the ParUni division :lol:. Of course, with a radical post, such comments are expected, I just wish they were less moronic.
Lol. Nothing is less moronic than the first post of this topic...
If someone else wrote this in SA:MP Ideas, this topic would be locked now and maybe deleted.
That being said:
1. It would be great to have the gang war members as suspects. But (1)considering the bloodshed/action that gang members are part of; (2) Cop hunting that normally occurs when a group of 4-6 people move around in cars &; (3) The admin time involved in spectating such cases, we have decided against it - unless there is really good reason.
I am sure our amazingly effective SWAT can handle a small group of armed people.
2. Consider the time of 2 weeks as a recuperation time - you end up in hospital or such. We cannot have gangwars without such a break. This is also another method of discouraging frivolous battles. A gang will think hard of whether it should invest time and money in a reason for the war & they will think well about it, when such a clause is inserted.
Yes, the only possible way to use hospitals... Why should winners get hospitalized, by the way?
3. I just called in gangwar arena. If that sounds like a DM matter, which I agree it does, we will change it to gangwar location. Nonetheless, the teleport is an essential part of this process. We cannot have it in open locations because (1) New players may see it and feel that anything goes on server, i.e. it is a DM server (2) Admins may not be able to control the whole aspect of the war when the gangwar is in an open terrain (3) The idea concerning civilians watching it and possibly generating additional roleplay from the matter becomes impossible with an open terrain.
And what is the difference between a "gangwar arena" and a "gangwar location"?
1. New players already are convinced this is a TDM server... So what will change?
2. Then something is wrong with the admin team.
3. How do you expect civilians to behave? "Oh, wow, a shoot-out, this is fun! I'll just sit here and watch, instead of running away, taking cover and/or calling 911."
Yes, this is unfortunate. But if there is any hope of bringing back an iota of such memorable happenings, such a step is needed. The fact that it will be in 3 locations(note, not war arenas anymore :D), is a small price to pay for the larger good of actually having a gangwar and being able to settle things mano-a-mano, with no moaning of who deathmatched whom and who lost weapons without roleplay.
Call a DM zone however you like, it will still be a DM zone...
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You're suggesting a paint-ball event but not a gang-war. :poke:
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lol, so if a newbie-civilians notice a huge shootout between two groups having different name tags/surnames, they will think it's a deathmatch server, but if they see gangs teleporting to some location to fight, they will not?
you said civilians in open terrain can't add any roleplay in a gang war while civilians on a gang war arena (or w/e) will do, may I ask how? We gonna film argonath TV series 'GANG WARS' with civilians screaming 'YOOOO CORLEONEEE, WHOOP DEIR ASSES!' ?
basicly the whole topic (yes I did read every post) when shortened/translated is like:
'ADMINS CAN'T HANDLE GANG WARS, SO WE GONNA ADD DM ARENAS, SO THERE WONT BE WHINING ABOUT GANG WARS, YO'
you might as well delete any weapons in 'free world', whenever you want to duel/kill someone, you type /duel ID, then you get a deagle fight on 1 vs 1....duh
Some may think gang-wars are just pointless DM fests, but the truth is they are a part of roleplay, just cause people don't rape /me command each few seconds doesn't mean something lacks roleplay. You are arming up first, getting people you need, getting cars you need, arriving on location, getting tactical positions, then blasting them all...then cops come which makes things funnier...some civilians get caught in crossfire...sorry, bad time bad place, it's not like they lose anything when they die..
adding 'dm arenas' just sounds...i dont know...retarded
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It's not necessary to fixate on one aspect of it you don't like, such as 'arenas' or 'zones'. Instead you could suggest an alternative if you have one.
I agree with you in some part Marcell, often gang wars start out as great RP which is perfectly acceptable. But eventually, in nearly all cases, they lose control and end up as constant, ongoing mass deathmatching. It is at this point that admins intervene because it disrupts the server.
If gang wars were already managed responsibly by those who participate in them, this idea would never have materialised. But even with the best of intentions they always end up the same way and the end result is a series of tempbans issued to take control of the streets that are now unusable for anyone else.
The interest in organised gang wars, whether it is a one off skirmish or a protracted war spanning several days, is to provide the players who enjoy this type of play a way to do it so it is safe for them and doesn't disrupt the server.
At this point no one is saying there will be war zones, or scripts, or anything else in particular. The idea is to put an idea out there that the community can help develop and if positive input is made the end result may look entirely different to the original suggestions based on discovering what you, the community, want.
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But eventually, in nearly all cases, they lose control and end up as constant, ongoing mass deathmatching. It is at this point that admins intervene because it disrupts the server.
what do you mean by this? that people return after dying, or that random civilians get involved as fighters ?
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I am sorry, but I do have to disagree with this idea totally. I agree with all that has been stated against it. I would not want to see players get teleported to arenas or places to have a gangwar and pay a fee? That would remove the aspect, the zones that exist now in San Andreas are unique, differnet places for everything.
When I started here I experienced the true old wars that was between the groups, both parties had fun and one part won. Even the law enforcement had fun by interfering it. But what is this?
All about the so called "gang" wars, I do not know why it's put as a gang war. It's not just gangs we have on the server, triads and mafias exist also. The true unique about the war(s) are the conflict between the whole thing, if it can't be solved with a talk it has to be settled with guns. The geographical area is the thing that I like about the wars. I have been with Gvardia, Inferno 9, NBA and 58th Street Connecta. We had our small or big conflicts with the gangs around us. We fought about locations, drugs, weapons and more things. But we both enjoyed it and never cared really about who won or not. I think even the law enforcement enjoyed it big time to actually stop a riot or prevent a mass shootout.
I am more used to the riots that were between Inferno 9/The ARPD/58th Street/Grove Street etc. By limiting the possibilites for this people will withdrawn and actually not enjoy it more.
I as an administrator do not see any problem to prevent things like this if it goes out of hands, we have done it and done it, and why not do it again? Do not see a problem in that? Of course it will take some more work for us, but we will handle it as any other report that come.
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I am sorry, but I do have to disagree with this idea totally. I agree with all that has been stated against it. I would not want to see players get teleported to arenas or places to have a gangwar and pay a fee? That would remove the aspect, the zones that exist now in San Andreas are unique, differnet places for everything.
When I started here I experienced the true old wars that was between the groups, both parties had fun and one part won. Even the law enforcement had fun by interfering it. But what is this?
All about the so called "gang" wars, I do not know why it's put as a gang war. It's not just gangs we have on the server, triads and mafias exist also. The true unique about the war(s) are the conflict between the whole thing, if it can't be solved with a talk it has to be settled with guns. The geographical area is the thing that I like about the wars. I have been with Gvardia, Inferno 9, NBA and 58th Street Connecta. We had our small or big conflicts with the gangs around us. We fought about locations, drugs, weapons and more things. But we both enjoyed it and never cared really about who won or not. I think even the law enforcement enjoyed it big time to actually stop a riot or prevent a mass shootout.
I am more used to the riots that were between Inferno 9/The ARPD/58th Street/Grove Street etc. By limiting the possibilites for this people will withdrawn and actually not enjoy it more.
I as an administrator do not see any problem to prevent things like this if it goes out of hands, we have done it and done it, and why not do it again? Do not see a problem in that? Of course it will take some more work for us, but we will handle it as any other report that come.
Wow, an admin AND a role-player? :wow:
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what do you mean by this? that people return after dying, or that random civilians get involved as fighters ?
Both. The gang members will often return to the fight, this is understandable because they are not likely to want to stand idly by and watch their gang mates be killed. Random civilians often get involved, they might drive by, a couple of stray bullets hit their car and suddenly they're amongst the fray with a combat shotgun.
By the time the reports start coming in all we see are a mass of people fighting and no way to determine it's origins or legitimacy.
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Wow, an admin AND a role-player? :wow:
I can recall we are players also? Just because we are admins we can roleplay, but it's more limited due to the work. :pop:
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Both. The gang members will often return to the fight, this is understandable because they are not likely to want to stand idly by and watch their gang mates be killed. Random civilians often get involved, they might drive by, a couple of stray bullets hit their car and suddenly they're amongst the fray with a combat shotgun.
By the time the reports start coming in all we see are a mass of people fighting and no way to determine it's origins or legitimacy.
Even if you add 50 DM zones, people will still DM outside of them. :rules:
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But if this idea would even get implemented, how would we deal with the so called shoot-outs outside the zones (DM)? It sounds the roleplay would be limited and not even a regular shoot-out could occur anymore.
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But if this idea would even get implemented, how would we deal with the so called shoot-outs outside the zones (DM)?
By filling in an application form and informing the ARPD 7 days before the shoot-out.
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Mario, unfortunately for me, I do not see the ignore button to your useless comments. Unfortunately for you though, if you cannot be constructive and post silly things like what you did, you will receive warnings/mute on forums. You need not support an idea but you must know how to put your ideas properly.
I am surprised that hardly anyone is reading/thinking about this constructively. Except for Que's & Jcstodds's views, hardly any others were constructive.
Who said that criminal roleplay is only about gangwars? Who said that civilians in open terrain can't add any roleplay in a gang war while civilians in a gang war will do? Kindly refrain from inferring things which are not said anywhere. And what is wrong with filming a gangwar?
basicly the whole topic (yes I did read every post) when shortened/translated is like:
'ADMINS CAN'T HANDLE GANG WARS, SO WE GONNA ADD DM ARENAS, SO THERE WONT BE WHINING ABOUT GANG WARS, YO'
Marcell, use a new translation tool. Apparently, yours works wrong.
When there are 6/8 admins on 130 players, it is downright hard to watch each person. Gangwars are not the only thing happening on server. All admins cannot be watching the 20 or so people at the gangwar, this cannot be expected. You can have gangwars in open terrain, provided you give me 130 names of probable admins with good reasons on why each one can be an admin, provided we accept them. Deal?
We have been having a lot of raging about gangs deathmatching, which, to solve effectively, we need to use such an idea. Why is this point unclear?
adding 'dm arenas' just sounds...i dont know...retarded
DM arenas...hmm...where? If you read every post you would see that I changed the term gang war arena to gang war location. When you say something, say it after properly reading everything, else you will be the one to appear retarded.
Henceforth, people who cannot contribute ideas properly will simply be forum muted for a few days. Just be quiet, if you don't like it, navigate away from this page. I have asked for your constructive ideas/sugestions. I have not asked for your moronic posts. I have limited time, so do other people who can take decisions. If you wanna know what sort of contribution is expected, see Que's or Jcs's posts as examples.
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Constructive: By adding this it would restrict roleplay and give the players wrong impression about the current administration team. They would see it that we either run from our problems or just take an easy way out to prevent this.
To prevent mass deathmatching we can ban players and they have to realise what they have done wrong in the unban section, it's simple.
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Cutter, your idea is good... for Paruni. :)
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For the sake... Teleporting to an area? You can easily drive to the location with your gang mates which not only creates much more roleplay but aswell is much more realistic + its lame to get teleported for an gang war.
I don't agree with this idea, and i think Argonath will lose yet another piece of roleplay in the community.
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Let me rephrase myself, we can already prevent this by the tools we have been given. Players can also help to prevent this by report the rulebreakers. This can be dealt with as any player who breaks the rules.
Or just create a new validation system with less rules and let it be more open? Or don't even have a system for it? I have seen that many groups have managed this, but some players have taken it wrong by using the reason they are in a "war" with another group so they can attack them.
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Mario, unfortunately for me, I do not see the ignore button to your useless comments. Unfortunately for you though, if you cannot be constructive and post silly things like what you did, you will receive warnings/mute on forums. You need not support an idea but you must know how to put your ideas properly.
I am surprised that hardly anyone is reading/thinking about this constructively. Except for Que's & Jcstodds's views, hardly any others were constructive.
Who said that criminal roleplay is only about gangwars? Who said that civilians in open terrain can't add any roleplay in a gang war while civilians in a gang war will do? Kindly refrain from inferring things which are not said anywhere. And what is wrong with filming a gangwar?
Profile -> Modify Profile -> Buddies/Ignore List -> Edit Ignore List
Constructive criticism? Your "idea" doesn't deserve any. Argonath is not meant to be a TDM server. Follow your advice and use common sense.
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Let me rephrase your idea Cutt3r into one simple line.
You want to make DM zones in Argonath which you can only join once every two weeks.
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Constructive: By adding this it would restrict roleplay and give the players wrong impression about the current administration team. They would see it that we either run from our problems or just take an easy way out to prevent this.
To prevent mass deathmatching we can ban players and they have to realise what they have done wrong in the unban section, it's simple.
No one is running from anything, this is not about the admin team. This is about giving criminal groups who see rivalry and conflict as part of the game a way to do it without interference from admin intervention and an overwhelming police response.
There is nothing easy about this at all, the easy thing to do would be to carry on doing what we're doing and just keep banning and tempbanning people over and over and over. If this or something like this would ever be implemented, this would be the hard option. All we want are ideas about how to develop it, if you don't like it then suggest something positive to improve it.
One thing is clear, zones and teleporting are not supported by anyone. Like I said we will listen and if that is not supported, ultimately that particular aspect of it will be shelved. So now the objection to teleporting to zones has been said several times, move past it and see what other things you can think of to make criminal wars work.
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Constructive: By adding this it would restrict roleplay and give the players wrong impression about the current administration team. They would see it that we either run from our problems or just take an easy way out to prevent this.
To prevent mass deathmatching we can ban players and they have to realise what they have done wrong in the unban section, it's simple.
Don't worry about impression of players of the admin team. An impression is formed in one's mind. You do not control it, nor can you expect to. You do your job and that is all you have to worry about.
Why should it restrict rp? Say, one gang has a problem with another. They immediately do not have a shoot out. Instead, they apply for the gangwar, giving reason and assent to it. It gets sanctioned, they have the gangwar. Problem solved, isn't it? Furthermore, we do not want to ban people, contrary to most notions. We want people to play. Using the idea we can reduce cases of random DM, thereby reducing chances of bans.
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A raw idea i have about this is to have a scripted area (i'm gonna take the Abandonded Airfield as a example on this now) where players need to travel themself if they wanna fight. The leader for each group need to use a command to mark that there is a gang fight about to happend. When both leaders have used that command, a message is sent to every player around the area that a group fight is about to happend and another command is available for group members to 'opt in' and join the side they are fighting for. Also that the admin team gets notified about a oncoming gangwar so 1 or 2 admins can take it upon themself to watch the battle quietly if there is enough admins online.
When both gang leaders has comfirmed through another command that every participant on their side has 'opted in', the battle starts.
Now, when they die, they will spawn on their spawn point from entering the server. If the spawnpoint is close to the battle, they spawn at LS CH instead to avoid returning back.
Also what people needs to realise, the whole topic about an idea, it's not set into stone as far as i can see.
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The issue is, why the hell would a gang fight in a neutral turf anyway? Each group has their own area, they fight in each others or their own.
You may implement this script, I guarantee after about a month they'll be shooting on the street instead.
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Ok, why teleporting is needed:
1. Admins cannot watch over a turf when spread over the length and breadth of SA.
2. Admins time is very crucial. They cannot wait for all members to drive at their convenience to the location and enter the location.
I am not saying that we will implement the teleports. It is merely an option I thought of. Just think about how we can solve the problems above and others listed elsewhere. For the record, each time you enter an interior, did you know what you are being teleported? Each time you travel up the elevator to Star tower, did you know you are being teleported?
We know what the problems are, do you know what the solution is?
Post Merge: January 20, 2012, 05:29:21 pm
You want to make DM zones in Argonath which you can only join once every two weeks.
Roleplay is the foundation of Argonath RPG. Why would I make a DM zone?
People will make the application, managers will check the logs to see if there was sufficient roleplay for the gangwar to be allowed. If there is no/minimal RP, not only will the gangwar be disallowed, but the persons involved may be punished after considering previous history and such other factors.
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Alright, so the idea is good but not great..yet
How about not needing to apply on the forum, instead you can come up with a solution in-game with an admin and the "rival" that you can do it at a given time the same day.
I know that "small time" crime organisations like to DM "bigger ones", they can come 10 versus 3 and then claim that they are the best, so I do like this idea.
Changes I'd like to see is the fee taken away, no need for applications, remove the maximum limitations and that you can be in another gang war one week after, two weeks is far too long.
Without these changes, role play will be restricted.
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Without these changes, role play will be restricted.
Suggesting Team Deathmatch is RP.
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Suggesting Team Deathmatch is RP.
I don't
However you can have a role play BEFORE the "gang war", just having this instead of the shootout that would've happened anyways, changes nothing except now the cops won't jump in.
I'd rather have a shootout with the "rivals" without the cops jumping in.
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I'm sorry but I do not like this at all.
The same thing can easily be done at ParUni, typing /dm 1.
This is not how gangwars are supposed to be, this is how Paintball Events are.
I understand that you're just trying to do what you think is best, Cutt3r, and the thought is good, but scripting this just won't work.
Everyone, this is how you properly set up a gangwar;
Step 1: Make sure you're actually IN a war with the opposing Gang/Family. A simple PM asking about it will do.
Step 2: Call your Bro's.
Step 3: Contact your enemies by phone, sms, whatever, saying "We're coming for you" etcetera etcetera. Just make sure they get the point, and know why they'll be attacked in the near future. Do so BEFORE getting armed, as this will prevent you from wasting time if they refuse by sending a PM. This also gives them time to prepare, which in turn will make a fair fight and no moaning.
Step 4: Get armed, get some wheels, prepare for the battle.
Step 5a: Move towards your enemies.
Step 5b(OPTIONAL): Try to get admin supervision just in case, as some people may break rules like returning after death and healing in combat.
Step 6: Once there, taunt them or whatever, obviously roleplay-wise and no flaming involved. If they taunt back or shoot first, it'll be a (second) confirmation that they are in for a fight.
Step 7: Have fun blasting people.
If done correctly, everybody wins and has fun, may they have lost or won.
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Not supported.
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Not supported in the least.
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It's sad to see this happen.
Like Aragorn once said, we can roleplay without scripts. We only need our imagination.
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Why should it restrict rp?
It is restricting a possible role-played gangwar to the fullest. All the "random" driveby's will be considered deathmatching, due to this idea, as we are requested to fill in an application form every time two gangs has an argumentation.
However you can have a role play BEFORE the "gang war"
"Yo, ey you fucked with ma sista yoyo yoyoyo."
"Fuke yo, get yo boys we teleport to gangwar arena we'll fuck y'all up yo yo."
Like, why?
Like Aragorn once said, we can roleplay without scripts. We only need our imagination.
Once real life role-play server were called (or is nowadays as well) a strict rule book server. This is the second time in a short term I've seen two pretty radical "changes", whose goal is to add multiple rules to prevent rulebreaking, which is simply the way real life role-play servers are implementing things.
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Why not just leave the whole thing for the people who want to do gang wars? As we say here, if one doesn't want, two don't play... So if gangwar is disruptive for someone let them /report like a regular deathmath case. There are many things which could become productive with script support but gangwars I believe it's quite the opposite, e.g. amount of members and location. Every gang leader must take the consequences of gang warfare in mind before waging conflicts with others.
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Its an interesting idea, but I do not see the benefit of adding gangwars to Argonath. I feel it is like shoving a knife in Paruni's back. We are sister communities after all, and if they want a gangwar, then they can go to Paruni.
Paruni already have a gangwar system, which must involve at least 5 people on each side (or something like that). If the gangs can muster up 5 people each, they might as well take it to Paruni, where the whole place is purposely scripted around Team DM.
Of course, gang-wars are still within RP to some extent, but I don't feel comfortable implementing something here that Paruni already has to offer us. I believe there is not a good feeling over the Argonath Stunt server implementing DM zones either. Are we to completely get rid of Paruni by making DM zones in a stunt server and finishing it off with Team DM in an RPG?
I believe this is constructive, becaue the Argonath HQ can start building up a picture of who does not agree with the idea, and why. Can't get more constructive than that.
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I nearly fell off my chair! Totally against this. The whole excitement of a Gang war is the spur of the moment - it cannot be planned, and this idea will definitely fail.
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Its an interesting idea, but I do not see the benefit of adding gangwars to Argonath. I feel it is like shoving a knife in Paruni's back. We are sister communities after all, and if they want a gangwar, then they can go to Paruni.
Paruni already have a gangwar system, which must involve at least 5 people on each side (or something like that). If the gangs can muster up 5 people each, they might as well take it to Paruni, where the whole place is purposely scripted around Team DM.
This is a good alternative. I did think about this but whenever I have tried to tell groups to take their wars to ParUni, I don't get a positive response. For some reason it is preferred to fight in the rp server. Whilst it is absolutely fine to fight in an RP server, it is difficult to establish if matters before a fight were roleplayed or not.
This would be a great alternative though and we can think about this one.
That being said, many felt that there was no rp with this idea. As said in my first post, my entire idea has not been listed here. When it does get listed and when you read the full thing maybe you will see that there is atleast some rp in it.
Now why such an idea was made - We have an RP server at SA:MP, we want to give the players a fun time within the rules. Unfortunately , more often than not, accusations of DM are thrown around between the gangs. It is literally impossible for us to watch every person all the time - that is, unless we have 130 admins. Such a system, it was thought, would give us a reprieve from similar situations in future, because we could use the applications to check logs, understand if the cause for the gangwar was roleplayed or not, grant it, let scripts take care of the war itself and leave it at that.
I am not saying that this idea will be implemented. I am telling you why the concept was thought about. After all, if there is a problem, should you live with the problem or try to find a solution?
It's sad to see this happen.
Like Aragorn once said, we can roleplay without scripts. We only need our imagination.
You can well roleplay without scripts. I will be the first to say it, I have done it too. But then, there were 26 players on servers with 3 or so admins. Player to admin ratio at 8:1. No one cared about money etc etc etc. Is this the situation now? Nope. So we had to do something and this was the best situation we could think off, put up for discussion. It is sad to see such a situation but we cannot have eyes on every player all the time. This is why we sometimes need scripts and other rules to aid us.
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This is something that demotes the joy, not only for the conflict between 2 groups, but the cops also. In ever gang war, the police will be involved, and it is no realism in that you teleport us to a arena. If we want a arena, we just go to the paintball arena at Blueberry or announce a event there.. This is nonsense. Argonath RPG is a light roleplay server which focuses on the humanity and player rights and free will to promote roleplay.
These limits will be constantly demoted when the arena script shows up. I can agree with that people who crash should not be able to rejoin the roleplay, it stricts against the rules "Do NOT return to the same roleplay when you are dead/disconnected", and I support the one that admins can spectate the gangwars, but the rest some sort of freaks me out.
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Idea is weak, either disallow them completely or keep it the way it is.
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No to everything. This would only further induce people making/joining groups to have a legal reason to deathmatch (as in get guns and shoot people being the main point of the game). As if that's not already happening...
Furthermore, if it's going to get scripted, actual role-played gang wars will lose on validity - just like everything that gets scripted, because of the "if it's scripted, not using the script doesn't count" logic. Same with drugs, same with the whole hitman script.
No group should want to have a gang war out of nothing, because that just shows the group is set towards deathmatching. If anything, a gang war should be an outcome that's a finale to a bigger role-play scenario between gangs that revolves around a valid point (just "being enemies"/"he is from another gang" is not a valid reason and is a plain deathmatching excuse).
yes this
seriously this idea is pointless, involves no RP and won't achieve anything
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I just want to add that a war between two criminal organizations (Mafia) is not on the streets with combat shotgun and bunny hopping. Mafia war requires a lot of creativity and imagination. With your idea you want to put them in a cage and see who jumps better...
The wars between gangs are also very interesting. There they make brawls with bats in places far from the police, they are robbing other gangs, they do drive - by, many, many things that will be destroyed with this idea. Trying to explain that to have a war, whether between two gangs or mafia, you must be creative. Not just '' ur tag Stracci, my tag is Corleone, lets go in /gangwar and see who's better????? ''.
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I don't support this idea.
First of all it destroys all the RP activities. - Becoming a DM place. ( They should have these gang-wars into the streets, or whatever they have them) - Again, not supported.
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I would not be willing to spend admin time watching over a fight in arena.
"Gang wars" are simple things. Everyone involved must know who is involved. That's all that is required. Usually it is obvious with tags. Other players can make it obvious by being with them, or just a simple shout.
Otherwise same rules apply: No attacking without RP reason. Gang members start to moan after "DM" ... if they want to survive why not surrender.
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I would not be willing to spend admin time watching over a fight in arena.
A closed environment would simply mean that gangs can have the fight without having to kill some random civilian. Furthermore admins/players can watch the situation for their required purposes. Why is a closed location a reason not to watch a fight?
"Gang wars" are simple things. Everyone involved must know who is involved. That's all that is required. Usually it is obvious with tags. Other players can make it obvious by being with them, or just a simple shout.
Otherwise same rules apply: No attacking without RP reason. Gang members start to moan after "DM" ... if they want to survive why not surrender.
Gangwars are simple - if one gang informs the other and the other agrees to the reason, if admins are watching the situation(provided they know about it), and if the fight is for an ingame roleplay matter. You and I know it is not that simple in practice.
With regard to other posts, barring teleports, is there any other reason for which you all oppose this idea? I do not need the "This is shit idea" sort of posts or any such random answers, it will just be overlooked. If you have serious points on why you oppose the idea state it or else, hold your peace. I will visit forums sometime tomorrow or day after, after which we will close this discussion and a final decision will be taken in May.
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What happens if Stracci steal some of Corleone's drug dealers and then Corleone kill them with snipers or something like that ( like Mafia)?
Corleone will be punished because they have not gone to fight in the DM zone?
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Why is a closed location a reason not to watch a fight?
I only support RP events that do not require admin intervention. Hence all my own events can be copied and enforced without admin help to try encourage others to do the same.
Same reason you will not see me monitoring or supporting rooftop DD that requires admin TP. I have made my own rooftop DD's... how? I bought a packer and made participants jump on to the roof...
Even my more DM events will have RP background and will not need TP etc such as the Money Trailer event. Admin presence helps enforce rules with this event and it is on a much larger scale than gang war. Point being - would rather watch a dynamic gang war that has some RP basis than watch an arena which is not really RP at all. I think the players who are involved appreciate it more as well.
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I think the players who are involved appreciate it more as well.
Word.
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Why cater to those who wants to see who can create the biggest gangwar & kill the most people?
We need to keep in mind that this isn't supposed to be about who has the biggest ego, it's supposed to be the quality of the roleplay & using imagination. If these guys complain about a tiny damn thing that they think warrants a big gangwar.. then there's something seriously wrong with them.
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I only support RP events that do not require admin intervention. Hence all my own events can be copied and enforced without admin help to try encourage others to do the same.
Same reason you will not see me monitoring or supporting rooftop DD that requires admin TP. I have made my own rooftop DD's... how? I bought a packer and made participants jump on to the roof...
Even my more DM events will have RP background and will not need TP etc such as the Money Trailer event. Admin presence helps enforce rules with this event and it is on a much larger scale than gang war. Point being - would rather watch a dynamic gang war that has some RP basis than watch an arena which is not really RP at all. I think the players who are involved appreciate it more as well.
Whilst I whole heartedly appreciate your view on other events, I can explain why teleporting was thought of:
1. Admin time is crucial. An admin gives the right to select IDs for the gangwar to the player ingame, & the player makes his choice within a short time if everything goes well. What if he does not make the choice in good time? Then what would you do? I did not want admin time to be wasted, this is why I thought about a teleport within a short time after the time allocated to choose IDs. Of course, there is an overwhelming response against it. I do have another option for this in mind, but will look into it in detail in May.
2. The use of closed interiors was to prevent unnecessary civilian casualities, interference by cops in the gangwar so that we don't have a mass team DM server instead of an rp server. In real gangwars cops would not be anywhere near the scene of the fight. Although we do not have a real life server, we support roleplay which stick within the decent realms of roleplay.
3. If this idea is implemented any engagement of groups outside of this system may be treated as deathmatching. Thus, this would result in increased beneficial usage of admin time, reduced cases of deathmatch and other allied benefits.
With the use of this system, once the gangwar starts, admins may go about other work if they want to. Thus admin intervention may not be ordinarily required. I do not get the point about how a closed environment is a cause for non-rp, considering the other reasons I have quoted in support of the same.
We will close this matter for now. Come May 2012, I will look into this once more and a final decision will be taken by HQ.