Argonath RPG - A World of its own

Argonath RPG Community => Speakerbox => World and local news => Topic started by: KhornateMonkey on August 03, 2012, 04:21:38 pm

Title: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: KhornateMonkey on August 03, 2012, 04:21:38 pm
The United Nations says North Korea has requested immediate food aid after devastating floods last month. [READ MORE (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-19107049)]
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Teddy on August 03, 2012, 04:36:32 pm
Interesting. They lock themselves out from the world refusing aid to help feed their citizens, yet floods cause some extensive damage and NOW they want help?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Kizzu on August 03, 2012, 04:54:05 pm
Yeahhhh, good luck with that...
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on August 03, 2012, 05:23:45 pm
sucks to be north korea i guess.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 03, 2012, 11:35:22 pm
They lock themselves out from the world

They shield themselves from Uncle Sam's influence, but Uncle Sam can not stand it. Same thing was with Qing China in the 19th century - they were minding their own business, but John Bull would not stand a country ignoring him.

and NOW they want help?

What's your point? Any minor country would request international aid for such a situation. Not everyone can go through floods like it was just a small scratch.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on August 03, 2012, 11:38:49 pm
they had aid and they blew it.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 03, 2012, 11:40:57 pm
they had aid and they blew it.

They ''blew'' it because the ''generous'' aid givers wanted North Korea to strip itself of its defense (so that later the order in there could be completely disrupted).
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Jack Rosso on August 04, 2012, 12:08:32 am
I think they should get help, afterall we can't blame their citizens for what their government is doing.. and THOSE citizens are currently in need of help, i think that King jong un doesnt seek for immediate food aid...
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Daniel_Bradford on August 04, 2012, 01:36:23 am
this crazy Kim Jong ass should think to resell his nuclear bombs then think about buying food ...
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Pandalink on August 04, 2012, 01:52:28 am
They shield themselves from Uncle Sam's influence, but Uncle Sam can not stand it.
They're completely locking themselves out from the world with their strongly isolationist policy. What has it brought them? Look at how much better South Korea is than the absolute disaster than North Korea is.

But then, I'm arguing politics with someone who has an avatar depicting a man worse and more evil than Hitler, so maybe we're never going to be on the same page here.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 04, 2012, 02:05:10 am
They shield themselves from Uncle Sam's influence, but Uncle Sam can not stand it. Same thing was with Qing China in the 19th century - they were minding their own business, but John Bull would not stand a country ignoring him.

What's your point? Any minor country would request international aid for such a situation. Not everyone can go through floods like it was just a small scratch.

Right, because dictating every move their citizens do is shielding themselves from the americans..

Truth be told Jay, you're just as paranoid about Capitalism trying to fuck everyone, as americans we're about communists everywhere, and because of that, Brazil went into a military government, causing the death of hundreds of people.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 02:11:38 am
a man worse and more evil than Hitler

Hello there... neo nazi?

Look at how much better South Korea is than the absolute disaster than North Korea is.

What means to be ''good'' for you? Be a vassal of USA? Because if that's the criteria then yes South Korea meets it far far more than North Korea.
And why do you define as more ''worse and evil than Hitler'' the man who commanded the only non-island in Europe which was not overrun by Nazis?

Truth be told Jay, you're just as paranoid about Capitalism trying to f**k everyone, as americans we're about communists everywhere, and because of that, Brazil went into a military government, causing the death of hundreds of people.

Not to sanctify non-capitalist systems, but capitalism does f**k a lot of people over. Concept of capitalism is profit, and profit can only exist if you are making it at someone else's expense. :)
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 04, 2012, 02:21:08 am
Hello there... neo nazi?

What means to be ''good'' for you? Be a vassal of USA? Because if that's the criteria then yes South Korea meets it far far more than North Korea.
And why do you define as more ''worse and evil than Hitler'' the man who commanded the only non-island in Europe which was not overrun by Nazis?

Not to sanctify non-capitalist systems, but capitalism does f**k a lot of people over. Concept of capitalism is profit, and profit can only exist if you are making it at someone else's expense.

Oh yes, capitalism does suck, but Communism is certainly not the way to go.


and stop with the bullshit of being a vassal of the USA, noone sucks it up to them anymore, their just another country, you on the other hand, should really think about your ideals, if you believe letting your people have a shitty working life, with no access to free speech, internet, tv or anything, just to "Show the finger" to the US, then you're an idiot.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 02:31:01 am
Make France and Britain beef with each other. Make them threat each other. Then make USA meet the both of them and tell them to shut the fuck up. Then reconsider it.

Shitty working life? Yes working is really shitty indeed, it would be much better if you could sit on your frontyard whole day and eat pudding.
No access to free speech? Yes, let's instead make the media free and later accuse it of manipulating everything to their interest.
No access to internet, TV? Yes, let's make it widespread and then watch whole day people telling you that sitting on the computers is not healthy.
Just show the finger to US? More than that - but I guess the milestones of non-capitalist countries (healthcare and education) are too complex to be understood and considered.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: SugarD on August 04, 2012, 02:36:52 am
Interesting. They lock themselves out from the world refusing aid to help feed their citizens, yet floods cause some extensive damage and NOW they want help?
Different leader, differing views, I guess.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Boromir on August 04, 2012, 02:43:04 am
This is one of the reasons why we, South Koreans, laugh at North Korea.
Refuses help - request for help - refuses help - requests for help.. This pattern has continued for years now.

Different leader, differing views, I guess.

No.
He's the previous leader's son, and he's even worse.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Teddy on August 04, 2012, 04:37:52 am
They ''blew'' it because the ''generous'' aid givers wanted North Korea to strip itself of its defense (so that later the order in there could be completely disrupted).

F*ck politics here, these are fking citizens of a country in god damn need and no free rights for themselves to do anything about it. The aid that was given was from MORE than the US so get your facts straight before you go all anti-american support on this. The United Nations, and MANY other countries have tried to support North Korea in both leaderships. Non-profits around the world that are not government managed have attempted to donate funds to give them food. They refused. So seriously don't defend this out of bogus military politics.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Pandalink on August 04, 2012, 04:54:08 am
Hello there... neo nazi?
Hello there neo soviet?
Frankly I don't see how calling an evil mass murdering dictator just that makes me a "neo nazi".

And why do you define as more ''worse and evil than Hitler'' the man who commanded the only non-island in Europe which was not overrun by Nazis?
Just the same as Britain used the channel, the USSR used its size to its advantage. The actual arming of the forces was shocking, with people being sent out without even a gun and being shot if they retreated. If it hadn't been an insanely large area to cover (the farmland of which was destroyed in retreat) then it would've been exactly the same as anywhere else.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 04, 2012, 05:10:23 am
Make France and Britain beef with each other. Make them threat each other. Then make USA meet the both of them and tell them to shut the f**k up. Then reconsider it.

Shitty working life? Yes working is really shitty indeed, it would be much better if you could sit on your frontyard whole day and eat pudding.
No access to free speech? Yes, let's instead make the media free and later accuse it of manipulating everything to their interest.
No access to internet, TV? Yes, let's make it widespread and then watch whole day people telling you that sitting on the computers is not healthy.
Just show the finger to US? More than that - but I guess the milestones of non-capitalist countries (healthcare and education) are too complex to be understood and considered.

Oh, don't take me wrong here buddy, what I meant with a shitty working life is working your ass off to later, get your house fucked by floods, and no aid since your government is too stupid and too involved into preparing it's defenses to actually give a crap about their citizens, Cuba surely has one if not the best healthcare in the world, but it's using old soviet era cars, and technology. and if you hate internet and tv and free speech so much, you can go and hide in a little shack in the middle of Amazonia.


in the end Jay, you're a fucking hipocrit, you hate on the so called "capitalism creations" yet you use em in your daily life, and I doubt you could live without em.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Mr. Goobii on August 04, 2012, 05:11:07 am
Not first time they seek those aids...
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Andy Murray on August 04, 2012, 05:14:59 am
The people of North Korea should not suffer for their leader's misdeeds, denying aid at this time will be a bad move since every humanitarian society will be on the country's ass.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: SugarD on August 04, 2012, 06:10:19 am
Attacking each other is not necessary to discuss like human beings. If you wish to keep this topic open, I suggest you guys stop pointing fingers and throwing stupid names around.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: ElMartu on August 04, 2012, 07:35:52 am
you got told jay

just saying

on topic: they ask for aid because there's probably nothing else for them to do...
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: SugarD on August 04, 2012, 08:48:23 am
you got told jay

just saying
And your provoking comment makes you any better how?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 04, 2012, 09:58:40 am
Attacking each other is not necessary to discuss like human beings. If you wish to keep this topic open, I suggest you guys stop pointing fingers and throwing stupid names around.

You always have to be the protector of peace and weak, right ?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 06:07:07 pm
but it's using old soviet era cars, and technology.

Ever heard of the embargo?

and if you hate internet and tv and free speech so much, you can go and hide in a little shack in the middle of Amazonia.
in the end Jay, you're a f**king hipocrit, you hate on the so called "capitalism creations" yet you use em in your daily life, and I doubt you could live without em.

You missed the point, and you should cool yourself down. I'm not saying technology, TV, internet is evil. The fact is that people criticise North Korea like it is devil's creation - I have yet to see a more romanticised view on any other country in history.

People attack North Korea because their citizens do not go to McDonalds four times a week and stuff their mouth with chemical-filled food, but they don't admit when they watch their TV and see all medical advice on eating healthy food.
People attack North Korea because their citizens do not have widespread access to Internet and computers, yet when they turn their TVs on or go to doctor they are told that using PCs too much is unhealthy, and they deny this habit.
People attack North Korea because their citizens work more, don't have cars, don't have bikes, don't have this and that. And they deny when they are told that they should be using cars less and be less sedentary.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Boromir on August 04, 2012, 06:42:35 pm
People attack North Korea because their citizens do not go to McDonalds four times a week and stuff their mouth with chemical-filled food, but they don't admit when they watch their TV and see all medical advice on eating healthy food.
People attack North Korea because their citizens do not have widespread access to Internet and computers, yet when they turn their TVs on or go to doctor they are told that using PCs too much is unhealthy, and they deny this habit.
People attack North Korea because their citizens work more, don't have cars, don't have bikes, don't have this and that. And they deny when they are told that they should be using cars less and be less sedentary.

I have to say, that's one of the stupidest arguments I've ever seen.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 06:57:01 pm
I have to say, that's one of the stupidest arguments I've ever seen.

Yeah truth is stupid isn't it? Seeing as how all the stories out there are much more popular.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Boromir on August 04, 2012, 06:58:21 pm
Yeah truth is stupid isn't it? After all the stories out there are much more popular.

Your arguments clearly indicate you do not understand why North Korea is criticized at all, or maybe, you are one of those communists who have to justify everything you do.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 07:05:46 pm
Your arguments clearly indicate you do not understand why North Korea is criticized at all

What are they criticised for then?

They're not criticised because they do not want to imitate the American model of ''democracy'', because instead they see another system as a better choice, but apparently that makes a lot of people mad?
They're not criticised because they do not want to strip themselves of their defenses to meet ''generous'' offers of ''humanitarian'' aid so they effectively put themselves in a vulnerable position to total disorder?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Boromir on August 04, 2012, 07:16:13 pm
1. North Korea does not know how to be thankful. We sent 5000 tons of rice per year to aid, but they did not even say a single word to appreciate it. They even said "5000 tons of rice is nothing but a small bit of bread for rats".

2. It keeps provoking South Korea for no reasons. As I alluded before, they keep positioning their missile launchers right at the border even though our truce agreements do not allow it.

3. Yes, removing their "defense". That's pretty much the same for every nation that lost wars. Japan is a good example. NK did not lose a war, but once truce is broken, it has no chance whatsoever. You should learn about effects and compensations of wars.

4. It is not allowed by the UN to test missiles across the sea, but that's what NK did. So, you cannot say they were just trying to defend themselves.

5. They do not want families in NK and SK to meet each other anymore simply because they hate SK.

Need more? Then simply read more news yourself.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 07:24:40 pm
Yes, North Korea is no victim. But what is wanted from North Korea is more than having them say thank you to South Korea, stop provoking or allow families to meet...

And as for point 3, we can not consider this a ''war'' situation as the armistice is still up despite the threats. They want North Korea to disarm itself even if no wars break out. North Korea is a laughing sack, their technology is old, they are endlessly weaker than South Korea, yet their threats make an incredible amount of noise...
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Boromir on August 04, 2012, 07:26:16 pm
Yes, North Korea is no victim. But what is wanted from North Korea is more than having them say thank you to South Korea, stop provoking or allow families to meet...

And as for point 3, we can not consider this a ''war'' situation as the armistice is still up despite the threats. They want North Korea to disarm itself even if no wars break out. North Korea is a laughing sack, their technology is old, they are endlessly weaker than South Korea, yet their threats make an incredible amount of noise...

Their threats make an incredible amount of noise because they themselves keep threatening to attack with them. Did South Korea ever threaten other nations with their army forces? No.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 07:28:28 pm
Yes but if their threats are causing so much worry, then they must have something really intimidating. So how can they be a laughing sack with backward techology at the same time?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Boromir on August 04, 2012, 07:34:27 pm
Yes but if their threats are causing so much worry, then they must have something really intimidating. So how can they be a laughing sack with backward techology at the same time?

You got the main point wrong here again.
We criticize NK bc its leader can fix its economic crisis if they stop developing the nuclear bombs.
We even suggested to increase the amount of rice to 10000 tons if they agree to stop doing so.

Any kinds of missiles are intimidating, regardless of how advanced they are, as they still can cause lots of fatalities.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 07:45:52 pm
The leader of North Korea is unlikely to cease developing nuclear bombs because he knows that if he does it there will be either a Libya-like (or even worse) military intervention or insurgencies supplied by foreigners that will spark a civil war, and North Korea will most likely become another ''post-Arab spring'' country - leader deposed, country in complete disorder, and the illuded population watches different groups of people fight for the succession to power...
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Zaila on August 04, 2012, 07:49:42 pm
and North Korea will most likely become another ''post-Arab spring'' country

And you blame that on the outside world instead of the NK leaders?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 07:54:32 pm
And you blame that on the outside world instead of the NK leaders?

How can Kim Jong-un take the blame for it if he is trying to not have a civil war start in North Korea?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Zaila on August 04, 2012, 07:56:25 pm
How can Kim Jong-un take the blame for it if he is trying to not have a civil war start in North Korea?

If you have failed to see it, it was the citizens that started the riots because they wasn't happy with their leader, not other countries.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 07:59:50 pm
If you have failed to see it, it was the citizens that started the riots because they wasn't happy with their leader, not other countries.

How can you be so sure that the North Korean population are unhappy with their leader? Have you been there, or have you watched the BBC? There are people who are unhappy with the leaders of North Korea yes, but if it was a ''striking majority'' then there would be no need for NATO, nuclear weapons or anything for Kim Jong un to be deposed. When the majority of the people revolt, then there are no factors which will stop it from happening. It hasn't happened yet so...
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Boromir on August 04, 2012, 08:01:44 pm
How can you be so sure that the North Korean population are unhappy with their leader? Have you been there, or have you watched the BBC? There are people who are unhappy with the leaders of North Korea yes, but if it was a ''striking majority'' then there would be no need for NATO, nuclear weapons or anything for Kim Jong un to be deposed. When the majority of the people revolt, then there are no factors which will stop it from happening. It hasn't happened yet so...

And how can you be so sure that the North Korean population are NOT unhappy with their leader? Have you been there, or have you watched the BBC?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Teddy on August 04, 2012, 08:07:04 pm
What are they criticised for then?

They're not criticised because they do not want to imitate the American model of ''democracy'', because instead they see another system as a better choice, but apparently that makes a lot of people mad?
They're not criticised because they do not want to strip themselves of their defenses to meet ''generous'' offers of ''humanitarian'' aid so they effectively put themselves in a vulnerable position to total disorder?

Why do you blame everything on America? Do you ever open you eyes to the reality around you? They aren't criticized only by America. Learn the facts or don't say anything based on your biased single sided ideas since they're missing blatant facts. Yet, I'll admit America in the scheme of North Korea has another agenda on top of the concerns. But that isn't to force North Korea to entirely conform to the ideals of Western Modernization.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 08:11:07 pm
Why do you blame everything on America?

I am not aware of any other group of people besides the USA/NATO one which keeps criticising the North Korean situation the way they do... And besides, I'm sure you know that USA is the geopolitical, military and cultural leader of western world...
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Zaila on August 04, 2012, 08:21:50 pm
How can you be so sure that the North Korean population are unhappy with their leader? Have you been there, or have you watched the BBC? There are people who are unhappy with the leaders of North Korea yes, but if it was a ''striking majority'' then there would be no need for NATO, nuclear weapons or anything for Kim Jong un to be deposed. When the majority of the people revolt, then there are no factors which will stop it from happening. It hasn't happened yet so...

As MIB said, how can you be sure that they are not unhappy with their leader?

I thought your communism period would be over soon, but it looks like you are becoming more and more fanatical and starting to blame US and the west for everything..
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 08:24:25 pm
As MIB said, how can you be sure that they are not unhappy with their leader?

As I said before, when the majority of the people decide to revolt, there's no stopping them. No matter how strong a state's military apparatus is, the people will always have the upper hand IF they are the majority. This has not happened in North Korea.

I thought your communism period would be over soon, but it looks like you are becoming more and more fanatical and starting to blame US and the west for everything..

North Korea is everything now?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Freedom on August 04, 2012, 08:24:55 pm
People in North Korea don't live in the cities. THey all live in camps/small towns and work all day while being watched by the army. They don't get fed, I don't remember the exact numbers, but one year millions of people starved to death. They have to poke around with sticks to find something. They have no idea what's going on around the rest of the world and they are brainwashed believing that their leader is some sort of a semi-god/angel, which is most likely why they don't riot. Their city/cities is only a tourist attraction, for the very few that get to go there at least.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 08:26:11 pm
People in North Korea don't live in the cities.

You completely destroyed any argument you were planning to bring up with that sentence.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Freedom on August 04, 2012, 08:27:16 pm
You completely destroyed any argument you were planning to bring up with that sentence.
Yeah, maybe some do, yes, but the majority doesn't. It's just there for decoration.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Zaila on August 04, 2012, 08:30:45 pm
North Korea is everything now?
I'm done with this, i can't belive how narrow minded you actually have become.

That you are even trying to defend North Korea..
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 08:34:14 pm
I'm done with this, i can't belive how narrow minded you actually have become.

That you are even trying to defend North Korea..

I'm done with this, I can't believe how dramatic you have actually become. :cry:

Yeah, maybe some do, yes, but the majority doesn't. It's just there for decoration.

They would not afford having entire cities just for decorative purposes. Have you been smoking anything lately?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Freedom on August 04, 2012, 08:38:02 pm
They would not afford having entire cities just for decorative purposes. Have you been smoking anything lately?
They could and that's how it is.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 08:39:00 pm
They could and that's how it is.

Really? I'm starting to think Estonia has no cities as well, to make you such a specialist.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Freedom on August 04, 2012, 08:41:40 pm
Really? I'm starting to think Estonia has no cities as well, to make you such a specialist.
That's out of context  ;)
And to bite the letter, our "cities" can't really be considered as cities indeed, but the population in them is far bigger than in N-Korea's cities I imagine.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 08:42:34 pm
And to bite the letter, our "cities" can't really be considered as cities indeed, but the population in them is far bigger than in N-Korea's cities I imagine.

:rofl:
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Freedom on August 04, 2012, 08:45:52 pm
:rofl:
There's nothing wrong with them, but if you call New York a city, then the cities we have can't really be called cities. But that's an other matter, if hardly a matter, for another time.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Teddy on August 04, 2012, 08:59:06 pm
I'm sure you know that USA is the geopolitical, military and cultural leader of western world...

It can't be more obvious the US's stance on their constant need to assert its hash methods of politics to other countries. The US doesn't want North Korea to conform to our political views, its just as much of the world, we view North Korea as a potential threat to themselves and others. This isn't even really the point either. The point is these citizens of North Korea suffer every day due to the leadership they are imposed and force to endure. Don't get me wrong, it isn't really torture and is not yet considered a "war crime" or "inhumane", but they are getting close and reaching those boundaries. North Korea is a serious threat to themselves, more than other countries in many peoples eyes.

There's nothing wrong with them, but if you call New York a city, then the cities we have can't really be called cities. But that's an other matter, if hardly a matter, for another time.

New York is both, a city and a state. There is a city in New York, called New York City; But in your point its true.

I'm done with this, I can't believe how dramatic you have actually become. :cry:

He isn't wrong, your practicality smashing every country that has tried to aid North Korea and then supporting the fact that the communist government in North Korea is a perfectly stable and lovely country to live. You can't even begin to sugar coat the situation in North Korea. I don't see how you can and are. It honestly blows my mind, and yes even other communist countries are growing concerned over the status in North Korea.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 04, 2012, 09:06:17 pm
He isn't wrong, your practicality smashing every country that has tried to aid North Korea and then supporting the fact that the communist government in North Korea is a perfectly stable and lovely country to live.

Can you read? I have said that North Korea is not in the victim position either.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Teddy on August 04, 2012, 09:40:27 pm
Can you read? I have said that North Korea is not in the victim position either.

I can read just fine, the way you are conveying your messages that it what it seems you are actually trying to do.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Pandalink on August 04, 2012, 09:57:03 pm
North Korea is an absolute joke. Communism is a wildly idealistic system that cannot work in the real world if you are to have an environment that nurtures those who put effort into their lives. Humans are selfish by nature and so it capitalism. Why the hell do you think it works so well?

Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Boromir on August 04, 2012, 10:00:00 pm
People in North Korea don't live in the cities. THey all live in camps/small towns and work all day while being watched by the army. They don't get fed, I don't remember the exact numbers, but one year millions of people starved to death. They have to poke around with sticks to find something. They have no idea what's going on around the rest of the world and they are brainwashed believing that their leader is some sort of a semi-god/angel, which is most likely why they don't riot. Their city/cities is only a tourist attraction, for the very few that get to go there at least.

Wrong..
Do not make things up here.
They do live in cities. And they even have hotels for foreign visitors.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Reece on August 04, 2012, 10:23:55 pm
KIMJONGILIA: North Korea Prison Camps Documentary (COMPLETE) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9zgjyd7hgY#ws)

People should watch this.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Freedom on August 04, 2012, 10:27:36 pm
Wrong..
Do not make things up here.
They do live in cities. And they even have hotels for foreign visitors.
Sure they do, but not as populated as they should be..
I'm aware of the hotels aswell, but they rarely get any visitors.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Jubin on August 04, 2012, 11:58:53 pm
Really? I'm starting to think Estonia has no cities as well, to make you such a specialist.
There's nothing wrong with them, but if you call New York a city, then the cities we have can't really be called cities. But that's an other matter, if hardly a matter, for another time.
What Freedom is trying to say is that the largest settlement Estonia has, is by definition a town.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JDC on August 05, 2012, 06:01:55 am
We can clearly see that North Korea is imposing a double standard, by asking for aid from the other countries in its times of need, while locking itself away from the world the rest of the time. JayL has said that South Korea is closer to the criteria of "countries who are vassals of the US"... but let us look at status quo, regardless of whether that assumption is true or not.

South Koreans live in a more advanced country (which surpasses even that of mine, despite the fact that the PH Government is one of the, if not THE, most 'US lapdog' governments in the region), which can literally be discerned at a single glance (from a birds-eye view). There is a reason behind the joke that North Korea is always celebrating Earth Hour.

The government of North Korea in itself is one that operates more on ideals contrary to human nature (i.e. government in absolute control of every aspect of life, such as what you eat, how you dress, and who you talk to) as opposed to being one that caters to and protects the rights of its citizens. It has become more of a massive prison camp than a legitimate country.

Couple that with a fat dictator who prefers developing nuclear missiles over economic development that could uplift the general standard of living, and you have a recipe for disaster. The country itself is functioning as a giant machine that caters to the dictator's personal whims (such as showing off ballistic missiles that are more like boomerangs than missiles) rather than one with the aim of upholding the benefit of its biggest stakeholders; the citizens.

I believe that "evil" is a subjective interpretation. However, even if you examine North Korea from an objective perspective, and compare it to the outside world, you can see how much worse off its citizens are doing. The PH government may not be entirely self-sufficient, but I can say that our citizens are better off as we can live in a country where we can eat what we want, dress how we want, travel where we want, and say what we want (except for stupidly obvious intimidations such as bomb threats) without a sky-high chance of being shot by the nearest government agent.

While I concede that there are certain risks that come along with a capitalist society (as outlined by JayL, such as chemical-coated fastfood and computer radiation), it is also the responsibility of the citizens to exercise some degree of accountability in their own personal lives, rather than the government spoon-feeding everything.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: SugarD on August 05, 2012, 08:26:10 am
You always have to be the protector of peace and weak, right ?
Biting my tongue on my opinion and standing up for those who are unable to in order to stop useless fighting on both sides makes me a protector? Last I checked, to do that, all you had to do was have some humanity in you.

This topic is seriously and ridiculously out of control. For the love of Sauron, someone lock this sickening thing or clean out the ugly posts. This is putting out a great presentation to our players about our community's respect for one another. Jeezuz guys...
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 05, 2012, 11:17:04 am
Biting my tongue on my opinion and standing up for those who are unable to in order to stop useless fighting on both sides makes me a protector? Last I checked, to do that, all you had to do was have some humanity in you.

This topic is seriously and ridiculously out of control. For the love of Sauron, someone lock this sickening thing or clean out the ugly posts. This is putting out a great presentation to our players about our community's respect for one another. Jeezuz guys...


I think jay is capable to stand up for himself, so in my book, that counts as getting into someone else's business.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Gandalf on August 05, 2012, 11:29:15 am
A very clever request from North Korea. Countries are always proclaiming that they give humanitarian aid to everyone who needs it and this is free from any political issues.
North Korea has now asked for such aid, and people are denying this because of politics? Great.
So its ok to starve and drown if you happen to follow a different political system, we are all such great people that we help anyone in need who kisses our ass.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 06, 2012, 05:05:01 am
A very clever request from North Korea. Countries are always proclaiming that they give humanitarian aid to everyone who needs it and this is free from any political issues.
North Korea has now asked for such aid, and people are denying this because of politics? Great.
So its ok to starve and drown if you happen to follow a different political system, we are all such great people that we help anyone in need who kisses our ass.

 :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Couple that with a fat dictator who prefers developing nuclear missiles over economic development that could uplift the general standard of living

Recipe for disaster is also if this fat dictator lets go of what he has to defend his country...

Besides you say it like North Korea's sytem is the only around which influences the citizens' lifestyle. Aren't there any massive advertisement bombing raids about how wonderful this type of clothes are, how you will be only a successful person if you wear this and eat that in the rest of the world?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 06, 2012, 05:11:11 am
:bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow: :bow:

Recipe for disaster is also if this fat dictator lets go of what he has to defend his country...

Besides you say it like North Korea's sytem is the only around which influences the citizens' lifestyle. Aren't there any massive advertisement bombing raids about how wonderful this type of clothes are, how you will be only a successful person if you wear this and eat that in the rest of the world?

Oh yes sure, but it's not like someone is putting a gun to your head and telling you to wear this shirt.


Sorry, but in what way it is right to live in a great palace with good food, invest in nuclear bombs and missiles as a hobby, and leave you people to starve and get fucked by floods ?

Jay, I don't give a fuck if your a fan of communism, but what North Korea have is nothing like it. it is a clear Dictartoship, and just because it gives the finger to capitalism does not make it right.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 06, 2012, 05:17:59 am
Oh yes sure, but it's not like someone is putting a gun to your head and telling you to wear this shirt.
Sorry, but in what way it is right to live in a great palace with good food, invest in nuclear bombs and missiles as a hobby, and leave you people to starve and get f**ked by floods ?

Thank you for providing me with the most accurate example of romanticised (to not say something else) view I have been talking about in this topic.

People do not get shot for wearing a certain type of shirt in North Korea. That's obvious distortion - doesn't even need a whole discussion, unless if you speak of someone wearing a shirt reading ''down with Kim Jong un'' and then in that case what do you expect? Said citizen to be hailed?

They know that their people are having hardship, but they know that if they stop investing on defense to fix the problem there will be a bunch of either NATO soldiers or foreign-supplied minorities bringing down anything that there is of order and stability in the country. But I guess it's all good with submitting the North Korean nation to total chaos if it's to remove the evil communists.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 06, 2012, 05:28:21 am
Thank you for providing me with the most accurate example of romanticised (to not say something else) view I have been talking about in this topic.

People do not get shot for wearing a certain type of shirt in North Korea. That's obvious distortion - doesn't even need a whole discussion, unless if you speak of someone wearing a shirt reading ''down with Kim Jong un'' and then in that case what do you expect? Said citizen to be hailed?

They know that their people are having hardship, but they know that if they stop investing on defense to fix the problem there will be a bunch of either NATO soldiers or foreign-supplied minorities bringing down anything that there is of order and stability in the country. But I guess it's all good with submitting the North Korean nation to total chaos if it's to remove the evil communists.

You act like if NATO started this, let me remind you North Korea is the one threatening South Korea, not the other way around.

One thing is to defend your country, another is to repeatedly threaten a near country, by shooting rockets and placing armies near their border.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 06, 2012, 05:38:06 am
What started it was the division of Korea.

North Korea overreacted with the shelling of that South Korean island yes, but there is nothing wrong with placing armies near the border. The demilitarized zone exists for a reason. And if only all of the harassment between the two parties was just because of threats...
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 06, 2012, 05:41:28 am
What started it was the division of Korea.

North Korea overreacted with the shelling of that South Korean island yes, but there is nothing wrong with placing armies near the border. The demilitarized zone exists for a reason. And if only all of the harassment between the two parties was just because of threats...


Nothing wrong, except that they are in a truce, and placing armies and firing rockets over the border are a clear break of such truce, do you really think they need to do that in order to keep the peace ?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 06, 2012, 05:45:27 am
A truce is a halt to agression, and how can there be aggression if the units are on border inside own territory?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Teddy on August 06, 2012, 05:46:58 am
Wow. I don't even know how to address the obvious disregard of logic. So, I'm not going to. Just wow.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 06, 2012, 05:48:17 am
Wow. I don't even know how to address the obvious disregard of logic. So, I'm not going to. Just wow.

You can do even better by not posting at all if you don't want to discuss anything.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Teddy on August 06, 2012, 05:59:17 am
You can do even better by not posting at all if you don't want to discuss anything.

Or I can make it address the point that this isn't even logical and has gone from civilians needing aid to a political and military argument.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 06, 2012, 06:09:31 am
A truce is a halt to agression, and how can there be aggression if the units are on border inside own territory?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10129703

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/5391720/North-Korea-abandons-truce-and-threatens-to-attack-the-South.html


But you'll probably pull the "Media is always lying" Always the same thing Jay, you support things that are just plain wrong, no I do not agree with the US involving itself in every fucking war, but I also do not agree with dictartors living in palaces and having fun while their people are dying in the streets. And I do wonder if you could live in such place, our government steals a shit ton of money from the people so they can buy their Ipad's and travels, and you disagree with that, yet you agree on a fucking dictator taking the money of his people with the excuse of him being the supreme leader, and use it at his will to have fun investing in a failure of a rocket that couldn't even get off the earth, or buying huge ass mansions and having his little army to play.

Or do you think he lives in a small shack and he does that to defend the "Freedom" of his people.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JDC on August 06, 2012, 12:00:30 pm
Kim Jong Un is no longer defending his people. We have all seen the pictures of him and his generals around lavish and first-class food, fit for royalty to eat, while his people starve on the streets. If the legitimacy of a government is based on how well it can uphold is responsibility of protecting its people and maximizing their good, then the government of the North has long lost whatever legitimacy it had left. Saying that Kim Jong Un needs these nuclear missiles to defend these people is like saying Argonath should create safeguards to protect us from people outside this community for the reason that everyone who enters here is a DMer, hacker, traitor, shitter, and flamer; it's completely exaggerated and illogical.

We have all seen that the dictator would rather invest in nuclear bombs to use for defense against non-existent threats of war (as the South would rather continue developing itself than waste time on an unnecessary effort such as destroying the North), than defend his people from the problems that are destroying them from the inside. As Teddy said, this is pure and complete disregard of logic. You do not need nuclear missiles to defend the North, especially when it already has the more well-defended side of the Demilitarized Zone.

If you truly want to defend its people, then you will focus on eliminating the food and disaster crises, rather than spending millions of dollars (dollars which could have been used to uplift the already poor standard of living) on a failure of a missile that could not even stay aloft for more than a few minutes, in addition to turning the country into an international laughingstock.

Right now, the situation of North Korea is more like that of a sick dog that chooses to stay away from everyone, and threatens hell to those who enter its territory. The passerby can disregard the dog's threats, as they do not carry any real weight, even though the noise the dog makes irritates a lot of people. However, when it rains, the normally hostile dog whimpers and scratches on the doors nearby, begging to be let in as it cannot stand the rain. You can see the double standard there.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 06, 2012, 05:47:06 pm
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10129703

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/northkorea/5391720/North-Korea-abandons-truce-and-threatens-to-attack-the-South.html


But you'll probably pull the "Media is always lying" Always the same thing Jay, you support things that are just plain wrong, no I do not agree with the US involving itself in every f**king war, but I also do not agree with dictartors living in palaces and having fun while their people are dying in the streets. And I do wonder if you could live in such place, our government steals a shit ton of money from the people so they can buy their Ipad's and travels, and you disagree with that, yet you agree on a f**king dictator taking the money of his people with the excuse of him being the supreme leader, and use it at his will to have fun investing in a failure of a rocket that couldn't even get off the earth, or buying huge ass mansions and having his little army to play.

You should go make a romantic painting of North Korea, seeing as how you love idealised descriptions. And lol, taking money of his people. How can he have hobby of taking money from his people if they are all poor starving peasants as it is being put here in this topic?

@JDC:

well done comparing argonath and north korea, makes your post extremely legitimate
and you do not need to write a huge wall of text to make your wish that NK suffers an attack and its order completely disrupted look beautiful
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Huntsman on August 06, 2012, 05:53:01 pm
How dumb can people become? You would believe american media brainwashing you that North Korea is the evil one, while South Korea is the state of angels.. Bull fucking shit. North Korea refused to lick US ass, thats why they make an evil out of them.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Teddy on August 07, 2012, 01:06:54 am
Still, the topic continues far off path and those responsible for keeping it on take it further off. Amazing.

My statement before remains true, this isn't a political debate. It isn't even part of the topic.

How dumb can people become? You would believe american media brainwashing you that North Korea is the evil one, while South Korea is the state of angels.. Bull f**king shit. North Korea refused to lick US ass, thats why they make an evil out of them.

You my young friend, are very very misled or delusional. I don't watch american news corporations when it comes to strongly political issues such as this.

Quote
this isn't a political debate. It isn't even part of the topic.
Not clear enough..
Quote
this isn't a political debate. It isn't even part of the topic.
Quote
this isn't a political debate. It isn't even part of the topic.
Quote
this isn't a political debate. It isn't even part of the topic.
Quote
this isn't a political debate. It isn't even part of the topic.
Quote
this isn't a political debate. It isn't even part of the topic.
Quote
this isn't a political debate. It isn't even part of the topic.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 07, 2012, 01:09:16 am
Still, the topic continues far off path and those responsible for keeping it on take it further off. Amazing.

What do you propose to be discussed here? If rubber ducks should be included in the international aid to North Korea?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 07, 2012, 01:12:37 am
You should go make a romantic painting of North Korea, seeing as how you love idealised descriptions. And lol, taking money of his people. How can he have hobby of taking money from his people if they are all poor starving peasants as it is being put here in this topic?

@JDC:

well done comparing argonath and north korea, makes your post extremely legitimate
and you do not need to write a huge wall of text to make your wish that NK suffers an attack and its order completely disrupted look beautiful

Well, usually when a dictator leader takes the money off taxes and basicly everything, and dumbs it into nuclear bombs and a failure of a rocket, it actually makes such country economy go to hell, therefore, making the people fucking poor.

And I do advise that you learn the meaning of  a metaphor.

And Tedd, what do you want us to discuss over this topic ? the topic is North Korea seeks aid after floods, considering it's political position, and isolation from the outside world, there's no way to avoid this conversation.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Teddy on August 07, 2012, 01:13:49 am
What do you propose to be discussed here? If rubber ducks should be included in the international aid to North Korea?

 :eek: Unbelievable.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 07, 2012, 01:19:41 am
:eek: Unbelievable.

What are you so stunned about ? It is obvious we have to discuss North Korea political system in such topic, or else it's what Jay said, if we we're discussing food aids after floods in Brazil, we'd probably be discussing how our government is shit and doesn't invest in protection matters for such things.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Aksel on August 07, 2012, 01:20:05 am
Oh yes, capitalism does suck, but Communism is certainly not the way to go.

It absolutely is. The only reason you express that kind of opinion, is because communism has never been done successfully in the world. You may think Cuba is communistic? No. Many nations call themselves communistic now a days, but there is usually a one-party dictatorship leading the country, except the base of communism, which is power to the people. That's the usual mistake most revolutions happen to do. They manage to throw the dictator off the throne, and wants to make a socialistic state, but forgets to give the power back to the inhabitans, and keeps it themselves.

Communism looks extraordinary on the paper, but sadly, it has not been tried to be done successfully in practice.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 07, 2012, 01:26:29 am
It absolutely is. The only reason you express that kind of opinion, is because communism has never been done successfully in the world. You may think Cuba is communistic? No. Many nations call themselves communistic now a days, but there is usually a one-party dictatorship leading the country, except the base of communism, which is power to the people. That's the usual mistake most revolutions happen to do. They manage to throw the dictator off the throne, and wants to make a socialistic state, but forgets to give the power back to the inhabitans, and keeps it themselves.

Communism looks extraordinary on the paper, but sadly, it has not been tried to be done successfully in practice.

Kinda of what I meant, i mean, I agree, communism is a great idea, but the in every attempt to make it, the human being greedy nature fucked it up and ended in a weird type of dictatorship.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Alsatian on August 07, 2012, 01:29:35 am
The problem with Communism and the reason it won't work is because it removes the incentive for people to work hard for the good of the country. You all share the work load, and at the end of the day get the same pay as everyone else, so why would you break your back anymore than you need to at work.

It's a shame, really, because the idea of Communism is brilliant, but it is dependent on a society full of good, cooperative and hard-working individuals - we all know this not to be the case.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 07, 2012, 01:30:00 am
:eek: Unbelievable.

An exemplar way of conducting a debate. So once again, what do you propose we discuss here?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Aksel on August 07, 2012, 01:32:12 am
Kinda of what I meant, i mean, I agree, communism is a great idea, but the in every attempt to make it, the human being greedy nature f**ked it up and ended in a weird type of dictatorship.

Exactly. That's why a "revolution to communism" won't work. I had a conversation with a representative from FMLN in El Salvador, and they were revolutionary. I don't believe that will work, and the only reason a transformation into a true, justified communistic society will work, is trough elections. Sadly, the majority are yet to understand the basic concept of socialism. If they understood, they would certaintly vote red.

Post Merge: August 07, 2012, 01:35:02 am
The problem with Communism and the reason it won't work is because it removes the incentive for people to work hard for the good of the country. You all share the work load, and at the end of the day get the same pay as everyone else.

Absolutely not. The basic, basic, basic, basic structure of communism is that every person should work as less as possible, in order to have as much spare time as possible. Imagine, if everyone (except people with handicaps and mental/psychical problems) worked three hours a day, it would be enough to keep the industri up, all citizen employed and have a good infrastructure with good welfare posibilities with free school, health system etcetra.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 07, 2012, 01:48:37 am
Yes Aksel, I agree, such form of communism would be great, since capitalism is based on fucking others as Jay said, but what Jay defends is the form of communism these dictators use to control their people and make the rest of the world the "bad boys".
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 07, 2012, 01:51:36 am
and make the rest of the world the "bad boys".

And what lead you to come to such a conclusion?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Alsatian on August 07, 2012, 01:53:51 am
Absolutely not. The basic, basic, basic, basic structure of communism is that every person should work as less as possible, in order to have as much spare time as possible. Imagine, if everyone (except people with handicaps and mental/psychical problems) worked three hours a day, it would be enough to keep the industri up, all citizen employed and have a good infrastructure with good welfare posibilities with free school, health system etcetra.

It's well and good having the expectation for a nation's people to put in their fair share for the general prospertiy of everyone, but just look at those who abuse government benefits - they get a considerable sum of money on which they can live on, and so they feel no need to work. If everybody works for the same pay and generally got the same living regardless of their work, then do you honestly expect them to work hard? Why would they? There will be no consequence for them doing a poor job and as a result the economy will ultimately suffer.

Also, there's the more obvious problem: human greed. People always want a little more than they have and there's a dead certainty that there would be disagreements over salaries.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Aksel on August 07, 2012, 01:57:32 am
It's well and good having the expectation for a nation's people to put in their fair share for the general prospertiy of everyone, but just look at those who abuse government benefits - they get a considerable sum of money on which they can live on, and so they feel no need to work. If everybody works for the same pay and generally got the same living regardless of their work, then do you honestly expect them to work hard? Why would they? There will be no consequence for them doing a poor job and as a result the economy will ultimately suffer.

Also, there's the more obvious problem: human greed. People always want a little more than they have and there's a dead certainty that there would be disagreements over salaries.

People who misuse the benefits of being a part of a communistic society will receive punishment, which is one of the reasons why we have a functional prison-system.

There will of course be people who misuse the system, but the main ideal is that everyone receives the same opportunities, no matter of ethnicity, parents, name etcetra.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 07, 2012, 02:01:49 am
And what lead you to come to such a conclusion?

North Korea's extreme isolationist government, along with threats agaisnt other countries. It's not like their leader is telling his people his a son of a bitch that is controlling them and making their lives miserable by investing into military power and that he should be removed from power ^^


I'm just trying to figure out what you're trying to defend Jay, dictators, be them capitalists, communists, socialists, nazi's, whatever, they should never be supported, it is something just plain wrong, submitting others to your will by the use of guns and military power, if you love to hate the US, sure, but what you're trying to achieve here is wrong, Dictators have the excuse for the crimes they comitted that they're just crazy for power, and that made them do such things, but people that actually support them, must be even crazier.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 07, 2012, 02:33:43 am
I'm just trying to figure out what you're trying to defend Jay, dictators, be them capitalists, communists, socialists, nazi's, whatever, they should never be supported, it is something just plain wrong, submitting others to your will by the use of guns and military power, if you love to hate the US, sure, but what you're trying to achieve here is wrong, Dictators have the excuse for the crimes they comitted that they're just crazy for power, and that made them do such things, but people that actually support them, must be even crazier.

If you ask someone on the street about Getulio Vargas, probably what they will tell you is that he was a dictator (if you are lucky enough to find someone who actually knows that he existed). Now compare him with the retards of Old Republic, of the military dictatorship or current presidents.

It was a ''dictator'' who put Brazil the closest possible to being a great power, to cite an example...
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 07, 2012, 02:53:00 am
If you ask someone on the street about Getulio Vargas, probably what they will tell you is that he was a dictator (if you are lucky enough to find someone who actually knows that he existed). Now compare him with the retards of Old Republic, of the military dictatorship or current presidents.

It was a ''dictator'' who put Brazil the closest possible to being a great power, to cite an example...

I'm not doubing a dictators leadership skill, yes, Getulio Vargas did take a shitty country and made it a bigger power, but at what cost ? The torture of innocent people, and the death of free speech in Brazil.


As far as I can tell, you support Communism, a political idea that should give power to the people, yet at the same time, you agree the people should be tortured and opressed in order to achieve greater economical power..
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 07, 2012, 03:02:17 am
Let go of access to good healthcare, education and a decent life without having to pay rivers of money for it, to be able to shit on a person and not recognise their good doings. Yeah, irresistible bargain I know.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 07, 2012, 03:10:03 am
Let go of access to good healthcare, education and a decent life without having to pay rivers of money for it, to be able to shit on a person and not recognise their good doings. Yeah, irresistible bargain I know.

You don't need a dictator for good healthcare, education and a decent life, look at Norway and other northern european countries for example.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Teddy on August 07, 2012, 03:16:39 am
An exemplar way of conducting a debate. So once again, what do you propose we discuss here?

Quote
Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods

The topic could be a great start. This isn't about which country is politically self motivated. Since, well that leaves every country under the sun. The fact remains that there was a disaster in this country that has left them in a serious need of aid from others. Perhaps, keeping things on task would be a great start.

I myself have live up north, in a location near a river which in high rain would cause some overflow but not really flooding. However, I do remember a few years back a during a serious storm it got really serious, I do recall at that particular time that the entire basement was flooded and many roads to the other cities where nearly non-passable for a few days. Knowing this, I'd like to know how they plan to transport and deliver this emergency supply to citizens when, from my experience at least main methods of transportation was cut off and not a possible option.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 07, 2012, 03:20:41 am
The topic could be a great start. This isn't about which country is politically self motivated. Since, well that leaves every country under the sun. The fact remains that there was a disaster in this country that has left them in a serious need of aid from others. Perhaps, keeping things on task would be a great start.

I myself have live up north, in a location near a river which in high rain would cause some overflow but not really flooding. However, I do remember a few years back a during a serious storm it got really serious, I do recall at that particular time that the entire basement was flooded and many roads to the other cities where nearly non-passable for a few days. Knowing this, I'd like to know how they plan to transport and deliver this emergency supply to citizens when, from my experience at least main methods of transportation was cut off and not a possible option.

Great, we'll all discuss basement floods from now on.


My city was affected by the biggest flood to ever hit Brazil last year, over 800 people died and 2 neighbourhoods are filled with mud till this date, my government sucks and did nothing, the mayor stole most of the support money, was removed, the next one took over for 30 minutes and died of a heart attack, we've been ruled by a shitty guy from the chamber of whatever, do not remember his name, and now we're having elections.


Seriously, what do you expect us to discuss ? they ask for food aid, considering their a country that's isolated from the rest of the world, the question this topic makes is, will the other nations help ?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: supermanmk on August 07, 2012, 03:23:42 am
Communism is the true way its goal is to abolish state and money not create a police state like the USA says. North Korea deserves help.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: SugarD on August 07, 2012, 03:57:46 am
An exemplar way of conducting a debate. So once again, what do you propose we discuss here?
The news article, not the politics behind it. Don't forget, political discussions still aren't allowed here. If you guys can't think of anything to discuss, then it seems this topic no longer serves any purpose.



And to end this stupid fight about Communism versus Capitalism, there is no system that truly works. They all have their flaws, so comparing them is pointless...especially in a place where discussions about such aren't allowed.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Teddy on August 07, 2012, 04:00:35 am
the question this topic makes is, will the other nations help ?

I don't see why they wouldn't. Well, actually I do and is exactly back to the question I asked how are they going to use it, and how are they going to get it. They need a plan to distribute it before they convince anyone that they are going to put the service to good use. Showing preparedness is an option they need to strategically develop and execute to ensure their country and their citizens get the food once it arrives.

Communism is the true way its goal is to abolish state and money not create a police state like the USA says. North Korea deserves help.
Don't forget, political discussions still aren't allowed here.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Pandalink on August 07, 2012, 04:32:51 am
People who misuse the benefits of being a part of a communistic society will receive punishment, which is one of the reasons why we have a functional prison-system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystopia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dystopia)


Personally I think it's a bit rich to ask for help when you're North Korea. Just saying.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: saberman on August 07, 2012, 07:32:08 am
I'm worried about the people there.. We cannot let them to rot even if they are the people of NK. Unless I'm misinformed about the people's status.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Dolfagr on August 07, 2012, 07:59:07 am
I'm worried about the people there.. We cannot let them to rot even if they are the people of NK. Unless I'm misinformed about the people's status.

Every North Korean is forced to have a portrait of the current leader and his fathers at his home / business. They're not allowed to express any political ideologies or they will be executed, without a trial most of the times. They're not allowed to visit South Korea and their families as the Pyongyang forbids it.

Males and sometimes females are fit for service in the NKorean Army are 17+ (not 18 as other countries), and almost all males are in the army, or reserves (Age 17-49) which makes it the Second biggest army in reserves ( 8 million reserves plus 1 million active personnel, which are about 25 percent of the whole population.

Allies? They used to have close ties with China, Soviet Union, Cuba, Belarus, Syria, Iran and former Soviet block countries.

Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JDC on August 07, 2012, 09:25:38 am
You should go make a romantic painting of North Korea, seeing as how you love idealised descriptions. And lol, taking money of his people. How can he have hobby of taking money from his people if they are all poor starving peasants as it is being put here in this topic?

@JDC:

well done comparing argonath and north korea, makes your post extremely legitimate
and you do not need to write a huge wall of text to make your wish that NK suffers an attack and its order completely disrupted look beautiful

@JayL:

This is where your entire argument falls apart, by arguing on the premise that there is an "order" in North Korea that is not to be disrupted if the country is to continue in a state of "prosperity". That premise is in itself flawed.

The only order that is present in North Korea is disorder. A country where you are forced to virtually worship a dictator, to stay locked inside the borders, to be separated from any friends or family you might have in the South, to conform to only a single political ideology, to die for simply having an opinion, to starve while watching fat dictators and fat generals eating first-class food, to dress exactly how the government tells you to dress, is definitely not a country with an order that deserves not to be disrupted.

Yes, the citizens of the North are also humans like you and I, and they still deserve our help regardless of how retarded their government may get. I am not here to attack political ideologies nor to wish war (or death) on North Korea or some other country. However, what you are supporting is completely and fundamentally wrong.

As pointed out by Wolfe (with the example of Norway and other northern european countries), you do not need a dictator of questionable mental state for a country to have good food, health care, et cetera.



Here's more.

Healthcare in North Korea:

Quote
North Korea's healthcare system has been in a steep decline since the 1990s due to natural disasters, economic problems, and food and energy shortages. Many hospitals and clinics in North Korea now lack essential medicines, equipment, running water and electricity.[246] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1666806.stm)

Almost 100% of the population has access to water and sanitation, but it is not completely potable. Infectious diseases, such as tuberculosis, malaria, and hepatitis B, are considered to be endemic to the country. Life expectancy in North Korea is 63.8 years, occupying the 170th place in the world, according to 2009 estimates.

Among other health problems, many North Korean citizens suffer from the after effects of malnutrition, caused by famines related to the failure of its food distribution program and "military first" policy. A 1998 United Nations (UN) World Food Program report revealed that 60% of children suffered from malnutrition, and 16% were acutely malnourished. As a result, those who suffered during the disaster have ongoing health problems.

Freedom of Religion in North Korea:

Quote
According to Human Rights Watch, free religious activities no longer exist in North Korea, as the government sponsors religious groups only to create an illusion of religious freedom.[228] (http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/07/08/nkorea9040.htm)

...

Pyongyang was the center of Christian activity in Korea until 1945. From the late forties 166 priests and other religious figures were killed or disappeared in concentration camps, including Francis Hong Yong-ho, bishop of Pyongyang[230] (http://www.30giorni.it/us/articolo.asp?id=10278) and all monks of Tokwon abbey.[231] (http://www.missionsbenediktiner.de/seligsprechung/cms/kategorie/index.php?kategorieid=59&parentid=59&languageid=1) No Catholic priest survived the persecution, all churches were destroyed and the government never allowed any foreign priest to set up in North Korea.[232] (http://www.uscirf.gov/images/stories/pdf/nkwitnesses.pdf)
You are forbidden from choosing your own religious beliefs.

Freedom of Movement in North Korea:

Quote
North Korean citizens usually cannot freely travel around the country,[2] (http://www.state.gov/documents/organization/186491.pdf) much less travel abroad.[5] (http://www.northkoreanrefugees.com/2008-exodus.htm)[6] (http://www.unhcr.org/refworld/country,,,,PRK,4562d8cf2,487ca236c0,0.html) Emigration is forbidden. Only the political elite may own or lease vehicles, and the government limits access to fuel and other forms of transportation due to frequent shortages of gasoline, diesel fuel, crude oil, coal and other fossil fuels (satellite photos of North Korea show an almost complete absence of vehicles on all of its roads throughout the country, even in its cities). Forced resettlement of citizens and whole families, especially as punishment for political reasons, is said to be routine.[41] (http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2004/41646.htm)
You are forbidden from exploring your own country freely.

Freedom of the Media in North Korea:

Quote
North Korean media are under some of the strictest government control in the world. The North Korean constitution provides for freedom of speech and the press; but the government prohibits the exercise of these rights in practice. In its 2010 report, Reporters without Borders ranked freedom of the press in North Korea as 177th out of 178, above only that of Eritrea.[193] (http://en.rsf.org/spip.php?page=classement&id_rubrique=1034) Only news that favors the regime is permitted, while news that covers the economic and political problems in the country, and foreign criticism of the government, are not allowed.[194] (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/6037715.stm) The media upheld the personality cult of Kim Jong-un, regularly reporting on his daily activities. The main news provider to media in the DPRK is the Korean Central News Agency.
You are forbidden from hearing anything the state does not want you to hear.

Economic Development in North Korea:

(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/a3/Korean_peninsula_at_night.jpg)
Not very much explanation is needed here.

Sounds like a very good place to live in, does it not? Now, tell me more about how this order is one that deserves to not be disrupted by virtue of its maximizing the public good of its citizens.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: saberman on August 07, 2012, 10:47:54 am
Every North Korean is forced to have a portrait of the current leader and his fathers at his home / business. They're not allowed to express any political ideologies or they will be executed, without a trial most of the times. They're not allowed to visit South Korea and their families as the Pyongyang forbids it.

Males and sometimes females are fit for service in the NKorean Army are 17+ (not 18 as other countries), and almost all males are in the army, or reserves (Age 17-49) which makes it the Second biggest army in reserves ( 8 million reserves plus 1 million active personnel, which are about 25 percent of the whole population.

Allies? They used to have close ties with China, Soviet Union, Cuba, Belarus, Syria, Iran and former Soviet block countries.
Yes, and that's why I think we must intervene.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Gandalf on August 07, 2012, 10:56:38 am
Information on Wikipedia is as trustable as the leaders of North Korea telling all people worship their leader.

We do not have the right to intevene in another country. If the people in North Korea wish to change their system, they are very capable of doing so. If they do not, we should not force them.
We may not agree with the system, but that does not give us the right to shut a country out of trading resources under the name of 'sanctions' and then denying help if they starve.
Most of the shortages and problems are because international trade in many items is blocked as "we" feel the government there should be changed. So "we" cause problems, then deny help.

I am by no means a fan of the regime in North Korea, but I am against denial of help for those we are responsible for starving.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Dolfagr on August 07, 2012, 11:31:23 am
Information on Wikipedia is as trustable as the leaders of North Korea telling all people worship their leader.

Yet it's one of the only sources, as there is barely any valid reports coming out of N. Korea.

We do not have the right to intevene in another country. If the people in North Korea wish to change their system, they are very capable of doing so. If they do not, we should not force them.
We may not agree with the system, but that does not give us the right to shut a country out of trading resources under the name of 'sanctions' and then denying help if they starve.
Most of the shortages and problems are because international trade in many items is blocked as "we" feel the government there should be changed. So "we" cause problems, then deny help.

I am by no means a fan of the regime in North Korea, but I am against denial of help for those we are responsible for starving.

There are no means of elections in N. Korea, the regime is a property of one family like in Syria. The only way to overthrow the regime would be via a military conflict as a transition never works out. A civil war such as Syria or Libya (Ofcourse Libya intervention was clear profit) would only make things worse for the civilians, plus the weapon stockpiles that N.Korea has and their unstable past.. a civil war would automatically begin an intervention in N.Korea, used as "Excuse" by Western powers to avoid a risk of them being used, just like Iraq with Sarin gas used on Kurds and Kuwait so the Americans intervened..


Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JDC on August 07, 2012, 11:47:34 am
f the people in North Korea wish to change their system, they are very capable of doing so. If they do not, we should not force them.

What if the dictator is powerful enough to supress and prevent any uprisings on the part of the people?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Gandalf on August 07, 2012, 12:07:44 pm
Yet it's one of the only sources, as there is barely any valid reports coming out of N. Korea.
Whis is exactly why it should be taken as propaganda and not actual situation.
Those who provide information do that based on their experience after fleeing, just as in West heard many terror stories about the USSR while most citizens could live a normal life.

There are no means of elections in N. Korea, the regime is a property of one family like in Syria. The only way to overthrow the regime would be via a military conflict as a transition never works out. A civil war such as Syria or Libya (Ofcourse Libya intervention was clear profit) would only make things worse for the civilians, plus the weapon stockpiles that N.Korea has and their unstable past.. a civil war would automatically begin an intervention in N.Korea, used as "Excuse" by Western powers to avoid a risk of them being used, just like Iraq with Sarin gas used on Kurds and Kuwait so the Americans intervened..
The military itself could choose to overthrow the regime, and if enough people with power would be convinced it is time to change it could be peaceful. Reforms in China were done mostly in peace, the USSR collapsed without civil war, so your presumptions it can change only by civil war are completely false.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Gandalf on August 07, 2012, 12:08:53 pm
What if the dictator is powerful enough to supress and prevent any uprisings on the part of the people?
No dictator is powerful enough if a majority of the people support the uprising.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: saberman on August 07, 2012, 12:10:34 pm
We do not have the right to intevene in another country. If the people in North Korea wish to change their system, they are very capable of doing so. If they do not, we should not force them.
The suffering is not recent, according to the video Reece posted.
Based on the information I have received on this topic, people cannot gather up together and make a rebellion.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 07, 2012, 12:41:15 pm
The thing is, you'd need to have the entire north korean army thinking at the same time "Hey, let's shoot that dictator", you'd need an actuall command of such rebellion, and for that you need more than 1 person meetings, with the ammount of supression there's no chance to form such thing.


I do agree help must be given, but i do not agree with Jay's view on it's political system, but that's unrelated to helping them or not.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Aksel on August 07, 2012, 01:05:07 pm
Communism is the true way its goal is to abolish state and money not create a police state like the USA says. North Korea deserves help.

North Korea is not communistic lol
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Gandalf on August 07, 2012, 01:14:47 pm
The thing is, you'd need to have the entire north korean army thinking at the same time "Hey, let's shoot that dictator", you'd need an actuall command of such rebellion, and for that you need more than 1 person meetings, with the ammount of supression there's no chance to form such thing.
If the citizens of a country wish to overthrow the government, that should not be a small elite group who will then repeat the former government under a different flag.
Changing a dictatorship that the world hates for one the world likes does not help the people of the country.
Just look at Egypt and Lybia and notice that for many citizens things got worse in their life.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Wolfe on August 07, 2012, 01:43:56 pm
If the citizens of a country wish to overthrow the government, that should not be a small elite group who will then repeat the former government under a different flag.
Changing a dictatorship that the world hates for one the world likes does not help the people of the country.
Just look at Egypt and Lybia and notice that for many citizens things got worse in their life.

yes, and do you think such ammount of organization can be done with the control NK government has over it's people.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Gandalf on August 07, 2012, 02:42:19 pm
yes, and do you think such ammount of organization can be done with the control NK government has over it's people.
If it can not be done, not enough people want change and the government should be left alone.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Alsatian on August 07, 2012, 05:04:28 pm
There will of course be people who misuse the system

And this is why it will not work, as it is dependent on the whole nation working seamlessly together. If one person begins to abuse the system in any way, or decides they're not going to work very hard today, then other people will follow.

Unless you can change the intrinsic values of human nature, Communism will not work.

Communism is the true way its goal is to abolish state and money not create a police state like the USA says. North Korea deserves help.

By doing so, you can pretty much say goodbye to any advancements in technology and every other area of industry for that matter.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JDC on August 07, 2012, 05:10:49 pm
No dictator is powerful enough if a majority of the people support the uprising.

What about situations such as North Korea, where the citizenry would be incapable of defeating the combined might of the administration and its armed forces? (as the soldiers are more in a position to benefit from the Kim administration)
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Dolfagr on August 07, 2012, 08:30:24 pm
If it can not be done, not enough people want change and the government should be left alone.

The security in NK is really strict and tough. One cannot organize anything without being exposed. And if there are even suspicious of someone, he is immediately exiled from their soil, or worse.

In one part it's our fault for isolating them into their own media and way of life, not saying that ours is better..thus it's expectable when the Western countries don't give a fuck about NK, the same will come as response.

A military coup would be hard to achieve, without assistance by Western Countries, lethal assistance or not, backed by profits of companies or not. At that point exactly is where countries like China, Cuba, Belarus, Venezuela, Iran start accusing the Western Countries of a plot to take over the government and we're again one step to worldwide shitstorm and start talking bullshit on conference rooms while the civilians are being killed every day.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: JayL on August 07, 2012, 08:45:52 pm
The security in NK is really strict and tough. One cannot organize anything without being exposed. And if there are even suspicious of someone, he is immediately exiled from their soil, or worse.

In one part it's our fault for isolating them into their own media and way of life, not saying that ours is better..thus it's expectable when the Western countries don't give a f**k about NK, the same will come as response.

A military coup would be hard to achieve, without assistance by Western Countries, lethal assistance or not, backed by profits of companies or not. At that point exactly is where countries like China, Cuba, Belarus, Venezuela, Iran start accusing the Western Countries of a plot to take over the government and we're again one step to worldwide shitstorm and start talking bullshit on conference rooms while the civilians are being killed every day.

One of few things we can be sure of (as it is general rule for countries) is that Kim Jong-il's army generals (those of whom where his proteges) are tutoring his son now. If they were to bring a practical novice down, wouldn't be so hard. Also, when there is a major sentiment of revolt, even those who watch others will refuse to put anyone down... None of this disorder has happened in North Korea so far, so yes the dissent is pretty much made up of minorities.

Post Merge: August 07, 2012, 08:53:51 pm
@JayL:

This is where your entire argument falls apart, by arguing on the premise that there is an "order" in North Korea that is not to be disrupted if the country is to continue in a state of "prosperity". That premise is in itself flawed.

The only order that is present in North Korea is disorder. A country where you are forced to virtually worship a dictator, to stay locked inside the borders, to be separated from any friends or family you might have in the South, to conform to only a single political ideology, to die for simply having an opinion, to starve while watching fat dictators and fat generals eating first-class food, to dress exactly how the government tells you to dress, is definitely not a country with an order that deserves not to be disrupted.

Do you even have idea what order and disorder mean?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Gandalf on August 07, 2012, 09:49:49 pm
By doing so, you can pretty much say goodbye to any advancements in technology and every other area of industry for that matter.
You believe advancement is made just for money or by a State ?
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Gandalf on August 07, 2012, 09:54:57 pm
What about situations such as North Korea, where the citizenry would be incapable of defeating the combined might of the administration and its armed forces? (as the soldiers are more in a position to benefit from the Kim administration)
The French revolution started by peasants without weapons.
India fought with spears against the British army with guns.
In Georgia and Ukraine people gathered to protest the election results withotu any bloodshed.

Many would fall, but if the citizenry would unite against those in power, they would prevail.
Title: Re: North Korea seeks immediate food aid after floods
Post by: Aksel on August 07, 2012, 10:18:02 pm
The French revolution started by peasants without weapons.
India fought with spears against the British army with guns.
In Georgia and Ukraine people gathered to protest the election results withotu any bloodshed.

Many would fall, but if the citizenry would unite against those in power, they would prevail.


Exactly. When the citizen fight against the authorities, there is no way for the government to retail.
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