Argonath RPG - A World of its own
GTA:VC => Vice City - City Hall => VC:MP - Vice City Multiplayer => VC:MP Courts => Topic started by: ~Legend~ on September 24, 2012, 06:48:56 pm
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Hey all,
Our court system's been around for a few years and it has operated in widely varying ways. We've had points in recent history when it's been hardly touched at all, as well as times where people have found it very beneficial.
I personally think it's a good way of holding up in-depth roleplays, providing alternative scenarios to game situations, and giving a whole new level of roleplay. It can affect government officials, the city's business tycoons, the "underworld" and the general public. Though it isn't used so much for this purpose, the court can even help citizens overturn law to a degree, and it's one way of changing the roleplay side of the server significantly.
The Court of Vice City isn't a clan or group, a company, an event or anything with an owner - it's something that is neutral to everything and there's a lot you can do with it. I've talked about law a little, but we all know that "legal proceedings" are carried out lightly here, as we still want to remember that people are here mainly for the fun aspect, than wanting to be a lawyer or read long, complex legislations etc. etc. - I suppose that the name of this board is a little misleading, and though we set things up professionally, I think people get turned off by the fact that it looks all too complex. If you're visiting this part of the community for the first time: this is definitely not "very serious" - you don't have to know anything about courts or law in real life. Everything in here's roleplay, we don't do it by quoting things from real courts word for word or anything like that - simply, everyone is encouraged to take part appropriately. You don't have to use it, but please don't feel you are not allowed to use it.
So, the court's got plenty of potential, but it has got a bit dusty.
It's really encouraging to see that more people are using it nowadays than even a few months back.
As one of the current members of the court, thought I'd make this topic to find out general opinions. What do you think the court should add/change/improve on? The heads of VC:MP in 2009 started off on a basic model. In some aspects, we've fallen behind a bit of the other communities, who have quite efficient court systems now, but we can catch up. :D
I have pulled together a list of things that I think we could do in the near future (might as well start early, eh?):
- New information section: Something (detailed) to tell people what they can do here, the services, court uses...
- Come up with some kind of logo: Looks like everyone else has got one - we're not going to be left behind and plus, it looks official
- Make a few links with existing groups/organisations/companies
- Look into recruitment: We need a group of people who can run this in the long term
- Maybe set up an area where people can immediately check status of court cases
- Area for businesses to check their rights given by courts + check asset protection
- Area for individual court sentences that may be permanent(?)
- Clearing up old information: This ties in with some of the other bullet points above, but I think it'd be worthwhile to clear up things like bail, the court's degree of "power" - what can be issued - how it affects people, a constitution to back up on?
- Klaus - Add a simple pickup at the court house to give more information to people in the server: Maybe one could also be placed somewhere in the VCPD HQ, giving information on things like 'miranda rights' and the courts. Other (or the same pickup) could also give info on ARPD etc.
- Kessu - Give further info/links to the areas like the court and businesses in VC:MP General: Maybe update stickied topics or create a new sticky with useful links
- Legend - When you buy a business a message could say something like "Congratulations! You now own the <name of business> or a business. You can advertise it on the Argonath forums, and remember to look at the Court of Vice City for more info"
Thoughts, suggestions?
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I don't think the message gets to many people ingame. Maybe a simple pickup at the Court house that gives info about the possibilities?
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Sticky topic in VCMP General with links and some general info about court & other stuff the forums has to offer ? Like City Hall's businesses, courts and stuff.
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I don't think the message gets to many people ingame. Maybe a simple pickup at the Court house that gives info about the possibilities?
I think that's a pretty neat idea.
It's a good point that many of the people playing would hardly have any idea about the existence of a court system.
Maybe a new icon could be placed now or in the future that gives information. The court house is on a busy road in Downtown, so many would see it.
Also to build on that, maybe it'd be good to have a similar icon in VCPD HQ maybe (in one of the waiting areas)? It could also give information on things like 'miranda rights'. Some servers already have a script which can recite it to a criminal, but a pick up may be more suitable.
Sticky topic in VCMP General with links and some general info about court & other stuff the forums has to offer ? Like City Hall's businesses, courts and stuff.
You'd think that a whole board next to VC:MP General is advertisement enough, but I guess not. : D
Maybe in one of the updates for that VC:MP Information topic, a list of useful links could be added at the top/bottom of the first post.
Or even, when those stickies get updated a new one should be added containing a list of all these [if required].
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VCPD HQ could have a pickup that tells you about ARPD (the one you apply to) and stuff like that.
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VCPD HQ could have a pickup that tells you about ARPD (the one you apply to) and stuff like that.
IMO I think this will work.
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It will help alot of new players who havent played yet for some time.
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Just to let you know, we will be reviewing the current and pending cases shortly.
Chief Justice Leonardo will be replying to more of the long running/high profile ones.
It'd help us a lot of if you could check that the person you're suing (for instance :P) is active and still remember/are aware about the case going on.
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Bump.
We are not abandoning the courts by any means. :)
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Update: Recent cases are under review.
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We will slowly bring any overhanging cases (after discussion) where RP has ended to a close. The new server's a whole different world.
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New court structure to be published. :)
The Court of Vice City will predominantly be organised as a civil and criminal court.
At present the uses drafted include:
- Civil: Personal injury, civilian problems, defamation, landlord/tenant disputes, property ownership rights.
- Criminal: All criminal cases may be brought to the court. This could be before or after incapacitation either to prevent it (on bail) or to claim damages. I am trying to organise something more interesting when it comes to sentencing. In the past we have had Vice City citizens taken to Mordor (a 'high security' prison in the SA:MP server), and it would be great to promote these cooperative efforts as more players will get exposure to our server and vice versa.
- Specialist: Business protections, funding, loan contracts and more organised selling of businesses (so that people will be encouraged to buy at a good price directly from players, rather than having to pay players an excessive amount on top of the script payment).
- Court of Appeal: All cases will be made appealable on the basis of a) new evidence arising or b) incorrect interpretation of the law (i.e. wrong judgement).
A small jury or panel of judges would likely be introduced if possible to encourage more people to get involved on these RPs.
As ever, despite it being more organised and centred around citizen needs/requests, judges are very unlikely to demand payment. Rewards could be sought from elsewhere. As some people are aware, after discussion court officials are likely to be limited to purely judges and government lawyers, led by a chief justice or equivalent.
One problem we've had in the past is to do with the neutrality of judges. Due to the recruitment pool being fairly small and limited to those already in legal RP, I am hoping to bring in judges from other servers, whilst at the same time giving our own players the chance to influence decisions elsewhere. This will also produce a more reliable appeals system, which we have lacked in the past. After all, what’s the use of appealing to the same judge if they are unwilling to shift their stance? Players from further afield should be able to complement and better the judgements already cast.
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Criminal court should be more than enough in broadening an external relationship between VCPD and the Court. Well done, Legend!
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One problem we've had in the past is to do with the neutrality of judges.
Possible solution would be to have judges from multiple groups (DC, EAF, VCPD, neutrals) and judge who does not have posivite nor negative relationship with either party in a court case would handle the case.
Judges should not be denied because "they're part of a criminal group". That's just dividing the rather small playerbase to unnecessary amounts.
Example:
Klaus could judge if there's a DC v random dude court case, but couldn't if there was Kessu v VCPD.
Another possible solution is to have multiple judges determining the result, one judge from each party and a neutral to top it off (not too hard to come by, unless there's a lack of interest towards judge position by a group, but then you'd just slam in 2 neutral judges)
I'm guessing the point of this kind of system is to also promote possible law firm roleplay thingy?
If a case is under appeal the same judge cannot handle the case. Atleast it should be like it incase of incorrent judgement or if the judge is found guilty of a bribe :rolleyes:
There should be a topic for jury members, every player should be allowed in the jury (unless there's a specific reason behind of him just not being able to be in a jury).
As for why the topic if all players should be allowed? Some may not be interested in being in a jury.
Also number of jury members from single group should be limited (in one case of course) to avoid them working together to overrun the votes, if it comes down to it.
Before making anything too official, it would be preferred if stormeus gave his opinion on the matter as to what script support can be given to the court ;)
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All the ideas I've seen here have some valid points. I fully support them.
Will be waiting for the reforms to be commence.
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Appreciate the responses. : )
Possible solution would be to have judges from multiple groups (DC, EAF, VCPD, neutrals) and judge who does not have posivite nor negative relationship with either party in a court case would handle the case.
Another possible solution is to have multiple judges determining the result, one judge from each party and a neutral to top it off (not too hard to come by, unless there's a lack of interest towards judge position by a group, but then you'd just slam in 2 neutral judges)
Absolutely, the success of our court will be determined by how much trust players put into it. And to get that trust, it's really important that we have reliable and open minded individuals.
I think that the merits of any applicant should be viewed from a personal point of view. i.e. We should judge their personal qualities, their behaviour, their 'reputation' amongst the community as a whole and their capacity to make well reasoned, fair decisions. Their RP experience would form a part of this, but a particular group affiliation should not ultimately make them any better or worse.
I think the proposed jury system/panel of judges will promote neutrality. A jury could vote on a decision as a whole (particularly in criminal cases) and leave it to the judge to pass sentence/give damages, or the jury and judge(s) could cooperate to come to an agreed decision.
You would not have to commit to anything by being part of the jury. Jurors will likely be selected and organised by judges and members of the public during a particular case and advertised on the topic or in the topic title.
There should be a topic for jury members, every player should be allowed in the jury (unless there's a specific reason behind of him just not being able to be in a jury).
As for why the topic if all players should be allowed? Some may not be interested in being in a jury.
Also number of jury members from single group should be limited (in one case of course) to avoid them working together to overrun the votes, if it comes down to it.
A small jury or panel of judges would likely be introduced if possible to encourage more people to get involved on these RPs.
If a case is under appeal the same judge cannot handle the case. Atleast it should be like it incase of incorrent judgement or if the judge is found guilty of a bribe :rolleyes:
If new evidence comes to light or if it's thought that a judge has made an incorrect ruling a new appeal case can be started. A panel of judges (2-3 different people if possible that were not involved in original case) or jury could make the decision.
[<-- Discussing bringing in experienced judges from other parts of the community & widening recruitment]
This will also produce a more reliable appeals system, which we have lacked in the past. After all, what’s the use of appealing to the same judge if they are unwilling to shift their stance? Players from further afield should be able to complement and better the judgements already cast.
I'm guessing the point of this kind of system is to also promote possible law firm roleplay thingy?
If a well organised court will lead to more people starting law related RP, then that would be awesome!
We've had a few lawyers in the past, but sadly they have just done one off roleplays.
It would be great to also encourage all round business activities, like mergers & acquisitions, business deals, even shareholder system (Teddy and a few others were beta testing an Argonath Stock Exchange). While this would be a long term aim, we can start with the general features and build up.