Argonath RPG - A World of its own
GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: TheLegitHabibi on April 08, 2013, 08:17:54 pm
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Now before you begin. I am not 'shitting' the management, nor I am telling admins how to do their job.
If you think my post is wrong in any way, please discuss it with me..
I would like to shed some light on some concerns that I have seen between admins.
1) The judgment isn't the same.
One admin says something is fine, the other says otherwise. This can be confusing and troublesome for many players who end up getting punished unintentionally.
Example, some admins like when you reply 'lol' to a funny kick or ban. Some would kick or warn you for commenting.
2) Many people including admins punch each other, run around and car kill friends.
However, sometimes players get in trouble for that. I did once, and I got warned for death matching for punching a friend because its attacking a player for no reason. Also, I was told that it misleads new players. Which I think is absolutely true. I don't think its right for admins to run around with red names punching each other either. That misleads players more, and just isn't right.
3) Killing events.
I used to host many Kill The Chicken events and one day I was told by pancher that it causes a huge mess. New players are mislead and the roleplay is destroyed as cops get involved etc. Completely agreed. But I still see admins hosting exactly the same killing events. This should be enforced too.
4) Admins mixing roleplay with admin duty.
Now this happens a lot. Admins do sometimes mix roleplay with admin work. If some players are breaking the law, or company, SAPD, or such rules, they shouldn't be punished for it. Admins should only enforce server rules.
5)Admins banning or kicking with funny comments.
Initially it was all right. Hackers got banned for "wrong kind of RPG" etc. However now, I often see that people are kicked or banned with funny comments that could be seen as provokative and are just not right. I remember seeing a guy getting banned and the admin sort of made fun of his bad English. It isn't nice behaviour specially as admins. If someone publicly says that on main chat he would be punished. So I suggest we end this funny comments in kicks and bans.
6) Cops admins and criminal admins.
Now this is kind of link to the first problem. Things aren't judged exactly the same.
As a judge, we are told that every case is to be judged the same. If we don't it causes problems. Now the cop admins have different views and the criminal admins have different views. And this causes problems.
I'm sure admins do not take this topic in a bad way. I'm trying to help by opening and discussing the concerns I have. By talking and figuring out solutions, we can all reach a better level of understanding.
Post Merge: April 08, 2013, 08:21:57 pm
Sorry for the mistakes. Its hard to type with the phone and it auto corrects some words. Its a bigger pain to modify and correct it. -_-
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I agree with 100% here.
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Hope they won't delete this, totally true
Especially first, commenting on punishment is NOT "hah" if admin says something funny on reason of punsihment everyone gonna lol, but if he punish someone with serious reason he will warn/kick/ban for commenting. Actually commenting is "He does not deserve ban!"
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As long as this is seen as constructive criticism and not moaning, I have no issues with it myself. You bring up some good points that I think we all need to look at and question ourselves on, and I'd say this could probably apply to the Administration and Management throughout Argo as a whole, rather than just in SA:MP.
Although as admins we tend to have fun sometimes, we need to also realize that we are still just players like others, and should never use our abilities to take advantage of such permissions we were given. We also need to remember that as an admin, our duties should be separate from our roleplays and opinions. Punishments should never be biased, and the joking messages may seem fun for those in the server against a repeat attacker, but to the outside world and new players, it doesn't show great professionalism.
I think over time this has become a bit of a problem that everyone likely needs to tackle. Back in 2008-2009, admins used to joke around off-duty in police cars and call it an admin patrol. Although it was silly and fun, it didn't always put a good image off to others. As time has passed, the jokes have increased, and have gotten a bit out of control on some occasions, but thankfully most haven't minded. If this continues at this rate without us stepping back on it, it may get to a point where users are hurt or upset by it, and I'm sure none of us want that.
I'd say for the future, a mental note of our professionalism, as well as keeping our personal feelings out of judgement, is something to keep in the back of our heads as we continue our jobs, and remember that we aren't above anyone else, either. The more we remind ourselves of that, the more we will practice it and keep ourselves, and each other, out of trouble. :)
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Guys please don't be rude or mean in whatever you say.
Were here to discuss and solve problems. Not fight and blame admins.
:) Just posting this because I don't want this topic to be locked because some guy posts something rude. -_-
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Ehm SugarD, I was banned for "being comedian" once
Post Merge: April 08, 2013, 08:30:10 pm
tempbanned*
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...tempbanned for "being comedian" once
This is not a discussion about punishments, so please direct those to the appropriate email addresses. (I edited my quote of your message to resolve this too.)
However, I do agree that such a punishment reason is not a good one.
For others who wish to give examples, please do so in a friendly way that does not include any information about the admin or those punished, or the details regarding such. It's one thing if you put the punishment message as it coincides with the discussion as an example, but this also does not need to turn into something that ****s on the community or it's admins, so try to be careful when expressing yourselves.
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I agree with 100% here.
Me 2
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The ones that are agreeing with the above points have rather colourful punishment history in-game. :gun:
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The ones that are agreeing with the above points have rather colourful punishment history in-game. :gun:
Hahaha :D
Well Sugar and I are good loyal people :3 we agree too!
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I heard an admin saying awhile back that flaming is allowed if all people involved agrees to it, and lets say i rp with friends and we flame each other in a realistic way, i don't think that should be a problem. The reason why i asked this is because in the middle of the rp yesterday i got a banana and i just stood there like a fool for a minute. When i asked the admin that punished me he told me flaming is never allowed even in rps. I mean what is flaming please define it. Is it? using the the word f**k or as***le?
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I agree with what you said, james. I have also thought about posting such topic if these problems are not solved in RS5. Now, the rule says "you can NOT return after death" but when going on cop duty you take another RP character and can proceed to hunt down the guy who killed you. What if the cop dies, doesn't he takes the SAME RP character and return ? So, if I get killed, can I change my skin and RP again ? This rules should have limits, to three sides. (criminial , cop , civilian) I don't know if other players have noticed it, but cops don't usually get punished, right ? Only new players which choose to be cops, and that I find bad, they have to learn ? freeze them and explain, not using a simple copban to ruin the guys fun.. Yeah sometimes the guy's fun can ruin other's fun, TEACH him.
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The ones that are agreeing with the above points have rather colourful punishment history in-game. :gun:
Yeah cause soon as we/players do something we get punished, and when "you" do it, you don't.
Just saying, won't argue.
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I heard an admin saying awhile back that flaming is allowed if all people involved agrees to it, and lets say i rp with friends and we flame each other in a realistic way, i don't think that should be a problem. The reason why i asked this is because in the middle of the rp yesterday i got a banana and i just stood there like a fool for a minute. When i asked the admin that punished me he told me flaming is never allowed even in rps. I mean what is flaming please define it. Is it? using the the word f**k or as***le?
flaming is kind of insulting others with words...
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Instead of just posting "I agree", elaborate.
Admins are not robots either clones. We all have our own personality and experiences. Even if the main rules remain the same, we have different views on what is acceptable or not (ie: where is the border between rulebreak or not).
- Saying "lol" to a punishment isn't commenting and shouldn't be punished, however this is up to admin's discretion.
- Many of you think they can rulebreak because they do it to a friend... This is false. Rules apply for everyone. Saying "fuck you", carkilling, beating your friends doesn't make it legit because it's "your friends" and he didn't report you.
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Now before you begin. I am not 'shitting' the management, nor I am telling admins how to do their job.
If you think my post is wrong in any way, please discuss it with me..
I would like to shed some light on some concerns that I have seen between admins.
1) The judgment isn't the same.
One admin says something is fine, the other says otherwise. This can be confusing and troublesome for many players who end up getting punished unintentionally.
Example, some admins like when you reply 'lol' to a funny kick or ban. Some would kick or warn you for commenting.
2) Many people including admins punch each other, run around and car kill friends.
However, sometimes players get in trouble for that. I did once, and I got warned for death matching for punching a friend because its attacking a player for no reason. Also, I was told that it misleads new players. Which I think is absolutely true. I don't think its right for admins to run around with red names punching each other either. That misleads players more, and just isn't right.
3) Killing events.
I used to host many Kill The Chicken events and one day I was told by pancher that it causes a huge mess. New players are mislead and the roleplay is destroyed as cops get involved etc. Completely agreed. But I still see admins hosting exactly the same killing events. This should be enforced too.
4) Admins mixing roleplay with admin duty.
Now this happens a lot. Admins do sometimes mix roleplay with admin work. If some players are breaking the law, or company, SAPD, or such rules, they shouldn't be punished for it. Admins should only enforce server rules.
5)Admins banning or kicking with funny comments.
Initially it was all right. Hackers got banned for "wrong kind of RPG" etc. However now, I often see that people are kicked or banned with funny comments that could be seen as provokative and are just not right. I remember seeing a guy getting banned and the admin sort of made fun of his bad English. It isn't nice behaviour specially as admins. If someone publicly says that on main chat he would be punished. So I suggest we end this funny comments in kicks and bans.
6) Cops admins and criminal admins.
Now this is kind of link to the first problem. Things aren't judged exactly the same.
As a judge, we are told that every case is to be judged the same. If we don't it causes problems. Now the cop admins have different views and the criminal admins have different views. And this causes problems.
I'm sure admins do not take this topic in a bad way. I'm trying to help by opening and discussing the concerns I have. By talking and figuring out solutions, we can all reach a better level of understanding.
Post Merge: April 08, 2013, 08:21:57 pm[/color][/size]
Sorry for the mistakes. Its hard to type with the phone and it auto corrects some words. Its a bigger pain to modify and correct it. -_-
1) Everyone will have their own opinions after all we are all different, however if some judgements do no follow our guidelines(Admin guidelines) we will pick up on it and sort it out.
2) I hope no one in the team is doing this after all you are role models.
3) Yes kill so and so for 100k or something stupid do causes all sorts of mess. I've always said go to Paruni if you fancy killing people for money. This is my opinion and I will openly say it.
4) This is true but if it's seen more as a breach of rules then players will be punished.
5) There's no harm in joking(Given it does not cause offence in any way) around although personally I'm not keen on these types of 'ban reasons' all I care about is that the meaning is put across.
6) Probably refer back to point 1).
I've answer vaguely I know but hopefully the gist has been received.
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Instead of just posting "I agree", elaborate.
Admins are not robots either clones. We all have our own personality and experiences. Even if the main rules remain the same, we have different views on what is acceptable or not (ie: where is the border between rulebreak or not).
- Saying "lol" to a punishment isn't commenting and shouldn't be punished, however this is up to admin's discretion.
- Many of you think they can rulebreak because they do it to a friend... This is false. Rules apply for everyone. Saying "f**k you", carkilling, beating your friends doesn't make it legit because it's "your friends" and he didn't report you.
I agree
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Everything written is absolutely right.This ain't right man.Shit happens...
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Guys, also try to remember that this topic is not for asking about scenarios and getting clarification. We have plenty of other stickied topics on the forum for that.
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1) Everyone will have their own opinions after all we are all different, however if some judgements do no follow our guidelines(Admin guidelines) we will pick up on it and sort it out.
2) I hope no one in the team is doing this after all you are role models.
3) Yes kill so and so for 100k or something stupid do causes all sorts of mess. I've always said go to Paruni if you fancy killing people for money. This is my opinion and I will openly say it.
4) This is true but if it's seen more as a breach of rules then players will be punished.
5) There's no harm in joking(Given it does not cause offence in any way) around although personally I'm not keen on these types of 'ban reasons' all I care about is that the meaning is put across.
6) Probably refer back to point 1).
I've answer vaguely I know but hopefully the gist has been received.
1) You do have different views. But shouldn't opinions not interfere the judgement? If guidelines are felt to be lacking content we should try to increase them by adding various scenarios to make judgement more, similar throughout. Currently it varries a lot. Various situations admins have different views and that leaves us unsure of what we can and cannot do.
2) That happens every single day at city hall. Admins are jumping around, hitting each other. Punching, sometimes shooting gun aimed at the sky, and I've even seen them car kill other admins. Not to mention, I once encountered one admin who was stunting at city hall using a bike which is often punished or results in a suspection for a normal player.
3) Exactly. Yet I see admins hosting such events.
4) Exactly. For example, a friend got punished for breaking sapd rules. Which is a complete mixing of roleplay and admin duty by the admin.
5) Problem is, such jokes are sometimes provokative. Which then doesn't seem right. :/
6) yep..
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- Many of you think they can rulebreak because they do it to a friend... This is false. Rules apply for everyone. Saying "f**k you", carkilling, beating your friends doesn't make it legit because it's "your friends" and he didn't report you.
And how come the admin spectated it ?
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And how come the admin spectated it ?
Because he is doing a good job?
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Because he is doing a good job?
Well if it isn't right to punch and car kill friends, then this should be enforced within the admin team more strictly.
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I personally think that the current admin team is flawed in many ways, and unsuitable for the tasks of today. I am beginning to find certain admins take the first sip of the chalice, grasping power and simply warning, kicking, or even banning people without thought. This isn't the way to combat the actual problems. /freeze the player. Confront him, tell him what he has done wrong. Tell the player how to improve his own flaws. Help him for god's sake; Do not /warn instantly. It is clear certain admins can grasp the concept of 'Verbal Warning', where-as some do not. Whether this is due to lack of teaching, knowledge, or simple power-hungry(ness), It is wrong, and should be dealt with. The problem will never be vanquished. I have seen perfect example(s) of this, throughout my time in argonath. However, I can't help but notice the recent careless nature of some admins. Again, I will not state examples. I totally understand a /warn for things such as DM, ect. But for expressing someones opinion, alongside an answer over the help chat, resulted in a warning, yesterday. I will not state who the punishing admin was, but I can state he acted carelessly, seizing the opportunity to add another punishment to his punish book, as it seemed. I plead that something is to be done about this. This is not my only gripe with the admin team in it's current state, however. It is visible certain staff have quite a trolling nature, and it can come accross that they are not fullfilling their tasks at a professional standard. As funny as an admin can be, I suggest an admin should /aduty if they prefer to be a clown, instead of ignoring Multiple reports. As said, this only goes for certain staff. I happened to come accross a few incidents, aswell, in the server lately. Exclusive vehicles being handed out, without any proper explination, or cause? How can certain players be 'special' enough to have exclusive access to otherwise inaccessible vehicles. I have seen this numerous times, with no event info, bar, or anything. Another issue I have with the current admin team is their soft-spot toward certain regulars, who are given what seem like bias decisions, allowing them to dodge punishments, and for example, be unbanned at a faster speed, whereas another player would have been shown in a different light. This is just a few of many problems I see in Argonath's adminship. I do not believe all admins factor into this, but some do, And I'm sure they know who they are.
Tl;dr?: An admin is there for the sole purpose of combatting rulebreakers, and keeping the server a fun and safe environment. As an admin, your role does not fall under striking people with 'thy mighty ban-hammer', seeking power of the ancients. Being an admin is not a place for a clown either. When you have that red tag on, you are here to do your job. Nothing else.
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Well if it isn't right to punch and car kill friends, then this should be enforced within the admin team more strictly.
If you have evidences, send them to Managers.
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If you have evidences, send them to Managers.
He is just saying, that admins, and managers also do this. and that if we are not allowed to do it. It should be also enforced for them, he is not moaning about it. He just said HE thinks it should be enforced...
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Honestly cyril, I've seen managers do that too. :/
Which is why I mentioned in the concerns. Its not right to do it. Players get punished. So the admins shouldn't do it.
So it is not allowed right? If the admins are messing around they're technically breaking rules?
So we have one concern solved now.
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I personally think that the current admin team is flawed in many ways, and unsuitable for the tasks of today. I am beginning to find certain admins take the first sip of the chalice, grasping power and simply warning, kicking, or even banning people without thought. This isn't the way to combat the actual problems. /freeze the player. Confront him, tell him what he has done wrong. Tell the player how to improve his own flaws. Help him for god's sake; Do not /warn instantly. It is clear certain admins can grasp the concept of 'Verbal Warning', where-as some do not. Whether this is due to lack of teaching, knowledge, or simple power-hungry(ness), It is wrong, and should be dealt with. The problem will never be vanquished. I have seen perfect example(s) of this, throughout my time in argonath. However, I can't help but notice the recent careless nature of some admins. Again, I will not state examples. I totally understand a /warn for things such as DM, ect. But for expressing someones opinion, alongside an answer over the help chat, resulted in a warning, yesterday. I will not state who the punishing admin was, but I can state he acted carelessly, seizing the opportunity to add another punishment to his punish book, as it seemed. I plead that something is to be done about this. This is not my only gripe with the admin team in it's current state, however. It is visible certain staff have quite a trolling nature, and it can come accross that they are not fullfilling their tasks at a professional standard. As funny as an admin can be, I suggest an admin should /aduty if they prefer to be a clown, instead of ignoring Multiple reports. As said, this only goes for certain staff. I happened to come accross a few incidents, aswell, in the server lately. Exclusive vehicles being handed out, without any proper explination, or cause? How can certain players be 'special' enough to have exclusive access to otherwise inaccessible vehicles. I have seen this numerous times, with no event info, bar, or anything. Another issue I have with the current admin team is their soft-spot toward certain regulars, who are given what seem like bias decisions, allowing them to dodge punishments, and for example, be unbanned at a faster speed, whereas another player would have been shown in a different light. This is just a few of many problems I see in Argonath's adminship. I do not believe all admins factor into this, but some do, And I'm sure they know who they are.
Tl;dr?: An admin is there for the sole purpose of combatting rulebreakers, and keeping the server a fun and safe environment. As an admin, your role does not fall under striking people with 'thy mighty ban-hammer', seeking power of the ancients. Being an admin is not a place for a clown either. When you have that red tag on, you are here to do your job. Nothing else.
With such a message coming from someone new to this community, who expressed their concerns in a non-flaming, respectful way, I applaud you sir. That was a VERY well written explanation of your opinion from which contained constructive criticism without the aim to moan at, or attack anyone. Thank you for your concerns. I truly respect you for that. You have also brought up some very good points that I feel we all need to address.
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Wall of text
You want admins to spend times on rulebreakers explaining them what they did wrong etc, and you complain admins don't answer your report.
If I look right now on the server, there is one admin for 104 players. How do you expect him to spend 10 min on every rulebreakers? Of course he'll prioritise more important reports over minor ones such as ramming for example.
I also see very often in my PM "Why you didn't punish him", I answered them that I talked to him, and it's enough. Yet they moan because no punishment were given. People should make their mind clear.
I don't say admins are perfect, yet I would like to see you alone with 100 players and see how you react. They think it's an easy job to do. I'm not saying it's very hard, but it actually consume a lot of energy and it needs you to be reactive and concentrated. In my opinions players should make an effort too and trying to reduce the minor report as more as possible. Someone rammed you once? Don't report it... Go to PNS (it's free) and get over it.
Final thing that I see more and more: Roleplay should come from BOTH side. It means, you can't shoot for whatever reason at people because you roleplayed it without waiting to see what the other players was going to say or do. Saying "I roleplayed, I told him to leave and he didn't so I killed him, but it's roleplay so it's not DM" it's FALSE.
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Wow Stanley.
Regarding the biased decisions. Yes. That's common in admins too.
People although said to be 'equal' are often treated in a biased way.
To some extent it is understandable why a new player is taught rules instead of punishing him.
However it is absolutely true that peoples past punishments, and their friendly nature seems to make admins take harsh or very lenient decisions.
Now iris right to kick someone who is previously wanted for the same thing. But what happens is, if a guy gets unbanned admins seem to think he always will be wrong which then might lead to more punishments. And a person who has played since 2010, member of FBI, does not necessarily be correct all the time. Yes, the person may be more trustworthy but if he's not punished, then the recently banned player shouldn't either.
I would agree that punishments sometimes are necessary, but they can be avoided. I remember that once I stopped a guy from hacking by talking to him pm when no admin was online. Back in 2009 admins were told to be polite and talk in pm to people before taking action. However situation now, is quite different.
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I can agree that it should not be permitted to do DM-events. What so ever, it only makes people think it's allowed to DM, what do you think about a new player who just join the server and sees a big event info which is about killing some dudes who driving around the city, it's not cool...
After all, I think administration does pretty good.
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4) Admins mixing roleplay with admin duty.
Now this happens a lot. Admins do sometimes mix roleplay with admin work. If some players are breaking the law, or company, SAPD, or such rules, they shouldn't be punished for it. Admins should only enforce server rules.
Was recently stuck with some police officer, who wasn't actually a police officer but a goddamn freecop, but then admin, was shouting that if we don't want to listen to his orders he'll copban.
I think people like the particular person are the scum of earth and should be ridden of their privileges at once. This is crossing over the line.
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About killing events, according to what Gandalf told me once, its not allowed. I had a 2 minute event where the first one to kill Diddeh won 1 million, which was 99 percent of my cash. Gandalf then "joined" the event and slayed Diddeh and took my cash. I were set in prison for some time while I talked to him over PM, I got out and he told me it was a lesson. I asked him for my money back and he kind off made a private event, if I killed Diddeh within 30 sec, I would get it back. Exactly 28 seconds later Diddeh were dead and I got my money back :pop:
So to all of you making killing events, don't do it, lol.
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- Many of you think they can rulebreak because they do it to a friend... This is false. Rules apply for everyone. Saying "f**k you", carkilling, beating your friends doesn't make it legit because it's "your friends" and he didn't report you.
No, sorry, I've never understood this retarded logic.
If you flame your friend IRL, even if he didn't ask police to fuck you over but police standing nearby observed the scene, would you get prosecuted?
Nope, exactly.
Admins are the police of the server and they are to remain it friendly for others. There are actually some subcultural groups which favour insulting eachother, and kids nowadays insult eachother with swearing words for the fun of it. The conservatistic logic behind this is falling apart when you want stability.
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No, sorry, I've never understood this retarded logic.
If you flame your friend IRL, even if he didn't ask police to f**k you over but police standing nearby observed the scene, would you get prosecuted?
Nope, exactly.
Admins are the police of the server and they are to remain it friendly for others. There are actually some subcultural groups which favour insulting eachother, and kids nowadays insult eachother with swearing words for the fun of it. The conservatistic logic behind this is falling apart when you want stability.
This is a community, to make sure everything goes smooth, you need to respect the rules to avoid chaos. If we allow friends to insult each other, it'll be a mess. And don't forget that people here come from different countries, with different education. Some may not find it OK to see insults all the day.
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Was recently stuck with some police officer, who wasn't actually a police officer but a goddamn freecop, but then admin, was shouting that if we don't want to listen to his orders he'll copban.
Which admin was this? Admins are only to copban those who are breaking the rules or abusing others. Any other case is not allowed.
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Which admin was this? Admins are only to copban those who are breaking the rules or abusing others. Any other case is not allowed.
If I say the name 1) I will have to present the evidence which is currently absent 2) Will only cause a shitstorm 3) Won't matter.
I assure you, he's a well known player with administrator rights. But he did say that somewhere along the lines, where I found proper to just quit the game because the amount of bullshit from that was astonishing.
Anyway, back on-topic.
Post Merge: April 08, 2013, 10:46:00 pm
This is a community, to make sure everything goes smooth, you need to respect the rules to avoid chaos. If we allow friends to insult each other, it'll be a mess. And don't forget that people here come from different countries, with different education. Some may not find it OK to see insults all the day.
But what if I am not insulting someone? Insulting someone is when you do so when you produce or have an attempt of producing negative reaction. If neither exists, it isn't an insult. Therefore I see no reason to pay attention to that kind of stuff for admins.
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I wish to address you point about judgement being different, this really cannot be helped as admins are humans and while i am only a teamspeak admin i hope to give you a brief insight as to why i think this cannot be helped.
As humans we all have a little pet hate, something that really annoys us or something we simply do not like and this is often different with each person. Personally i dislike people who troll and disrespect me as i try to carry out the work i volunteer to do and because of this i tend to take a very little tolerance toward it. Whereas other admins may not be bothered by trolls but they intern have something that irritates them more than anything else.
I hope you can understand where i am coming from with this point.
- Mega
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If I look right now on the server, there is one admin for 104 players.
That is something Management must address on the server(s) affected by a low level of admins. If they have enough active admins assigned and said admins are not doing their jobs, then it falls on those admins who are not doing what they should be.
Fault for such should never be placed upon the players. They do not control who handles their reports, nor do they control who is hired into the admin team.
This is a community, to make sure everything goes smooth, you need to respect the rules to avoid chaos. If we allow friends to insult each other, it'll be a mess. And don't forget that people here come from different countries, with different education. Some may not find it OK to see insults all day.
I couldn't agree more.
I wish to address you point about judgement being different, this really cannot be helped as admins are humans and while i am only a teamspeak admin i hope to give you a brief insight as to why i think this cannot be helped.
As humans we all have a little pet hate, something that really annoys us or something we simply do not like and this is often different with each person. Personally i dislike people who troll and disrespect me as i try to carry out the work i volunteer to do and because of this i tend to take a very little tolerance toward it. Whereas other admins may not be bothered by trolls but they intern have something that irritates them more than anything else.
I hope you can understand where i am coming from with this point.
- Mega
You bring up a good point as well. I think players probably need to consider this more, whereas admins need to focus more on ensuring their own personal biases do not affect their judgements. A mutual understanding there would likely make things much easier for everyone.
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That is something Management must address on the server(s) affected by a low level of admins. If they have enough active admins assigned and said admins are not doing their jobs, then it falls on those admins who are not doing what they should be.
Fault for such should never be placed upon the players. They do not control who handles their reports, nor do they control who is hired into the admin team.
I couldn't agree more.
Admins are doing their job. Most of them meet the 7h/week requirement. You can't force every admin to be on the server 24/7.
Admins have a life outside the game, we are not paid for administrating, we doing it on our free-time. People shouldn't forget that too.
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Admins are doing their job. Most of them meet the 7h/week requirement. You can't force every admin to be on the server 24/7.
I'm not saying they need to be, but there is clearly an issue if only one admin is available for hours at a time. Diversity in time zones should also be considered during a hiring process so such issues can be avoided. If they have been considered, then it is still the fault of those who are not actively showing up to do their work.
It is unfair both to available admins, and the players affected, if the team is not strong and working together. Dumping the work of a group on a select few is by no means a nice thing to do.
Remember, admins are players also, but they did take on the extra work on their own, voluntary basis. If they cannot handle it, they should be resigning instead of avoiding it. It was their own decision to focus on helping the community in their free time instead of roleplaying as often.
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From my point of view, adjustments on both players and admins are needed to create an equal balance.
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From my point of view, adjustments on both players and admins are needed to create an equal balance.
I agree with that, as well.
For those wondering, I'm not leaning towards admins being at fault here. I simply focused on them for this discussion as it was the topic at hand. I also feel that many players have their own part in this problem.
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Moderator = Online literally 24/7
Admin = 7 hours at most online
Manager = Lucky if one is ever online at all.
This is how it works :)
Timezones are a factor we always look at as are many other areas but we cannot be held accountable for an administrators personal life, after all we all know things can change at a click of a finger.
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2) Many people including admins punch each other, run around and car kill friends.
I don't think its right for admins to run around with red names punching each other either.
It's a game and sometimes you just login to Argonath to have fun. If you are both punching each other and are happy with it, what's the problem.
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It's a game and sometimes you just login to Argonath to have fun. If you are both punching each other and are happy with it, what's the problem.
The problem is, if you are a player and you do it, you either get a straight /warn for random DM or a tempban or verbally warned etc. And if you are an admin, nothing.
Sure I agree it can be fun to have a random fight with your mates, but sometimes the admins don't agree that you do it, and that is where the problem comes in.
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Admins get bollocked for it too.
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Now before you begin. I am not 'shitting' the management, nor I am telling admins how to do their job.
If you think my post is wrong in any way, please discuss it with me..
I would like to shed some light on some concerns that I have seen between admins.
1) The judgment isn't the same.
One admin says something is fine, the other says otherwise. This can be confusing and troublesome for many players who end up getting punished unintentionally.
Example, some admins like when you reply 'lol' to a funny kick or ban. Some would kick or warn you for commenting.
2) Many people including admins punch each other, run around and car kill friends.
However, sometimes players get in trouble for that. I did once, and I got warned for death matching for punching a friend because its attacking a player for no reason. Also, I was told that it misleads new players. Which I think is absolutely true. I don't think its right for admins to run around with red names punching each other either. That misleads players more, and just isn't right.
3) Killing events.
I used to host many Kill The Chicken events and one day I was told by pancher that it causes a huge mess. New players are mislead and the roleplay is destroyed as cops get involved etc. Completely agreed. But I still see admins hosting exactly the same killing events. This should be enforced too.
4) Admins mixing roleplay with admin duty.
Now this happens a lot. Admins do sometimes mix roleplay with admin work. If some players are breaking the law, or company, SAPD, or such rules, they shouldn't be punished for it. Admins should only enforce server rules.
5)Admins banning or kicking with funny comments.
Initially it was all right. Hackers got banned for "wrong kind of RPG" etc. However now, I often see that people are kicked or banned with funny comments that could be seen as provokative and are just not right. I remember seeing a guy getting banned and the admin sort of made fun of his bad English. It isn't nice behaviour specially as admins. If someone publicly says that on main chat he would be punished. So I suggest we end this funny comments in kicks and bans.
6) Cops admins and criminal admins.
Now this is kind of link to the first problem. Things aren't judged exactly the same.
As a judge, we are told that every case is to be judged the same. If we don't it causes problems. Now the cop admins have different views and the criminal admins have different views. And this causes problems.
I'm sure admins do not take this topic in a bad way. I'm trying to help by opening and discussing the concerns I have. By talking and figuring out solutions, we can all reach a better level of understanding.
Post Merge: April 08, 2013, 08:21:57 pm
Sorry for the mistakes. Its hard to type with the phone and it auto corrects some words. Its a bigger pain to modify and correct it. -_-
1) Different admins might handle situations a bit differently. But all should enforce the same rules. As for "commenting on admin punishment"... there is NO SUCH RULE unless it violates another rule like provoking, flaming etc.
2) If you do it, do it out of public view. When you do things like this it sends a negative message to new players.
3) I agree, admins should not.
4) An admin should not issue punishments based on law, SAPD/FBI regulations etc. For example an admin can not copban a player because of breaching SAPD regulations or ARPD (unless part of Server rule).
5) Admins should be using proper kick, ban, and warning messages. A little light humor is fine, after all.. it is a game.
6) Views shouldn't mean anything... You think I agree with every SA:MP RPG rule we have? I don't agree with some sure, and I think we need more but I will still enforce the rules I am told to, and will not enforce rules that aren't existent.
Hope this gives you some insight.
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I agree with what you said, james. I have also thought about posting such topic if these problems are not solved in RS5. Now, the rule says "you can NOT return after death" but when going on cop duty you take another RP character and can proceed to hunt down the guy who killed you. What if the cop dies, doesn't he takes the SAME RP character and return ? So, if I get killed, can I change my skin and RP again ? This rules should have limits, to three sides. (criminial , cop , civilian) I don't know if other players have noticed it, but cops don't usually get punished, right ? Only new players which choose to be cops, and that I find bad, they have to learn ? freeze them and explain, not using a simple copban to ruin the guys fun.. Yeah sometimes the guy's fun can ruin other's fun, TEACH him.
I agree with what you said, james. I have also thought about posting such topic if these problems are not solved in RS5. Now, the rule says "you can NOT return after death" but when going on cop duty you take another RP character and can proceed to hunt down the guy who killed you. What if the cop dies, doesn't he takes the SAME RP character and return ? So, if I get killed, can I change my skin and RP again ? This rules should have limits, to three sides. (criminial , cop , civilian) I don't know if other players have noticed it, but cops don't usually get punished, right ? Only new players which choose to be cops, and that I find bad, they have to learn ? freeze them and explain, not using a simple copban to ruin the guys fun.. Yeah sometimes the guy's fun can ruin other's fun, TEACH him.
I fully agree with this, my opinion is that cops have sometimes to much freedom in those kind of rules,.
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1) The judgment isn't the same.
One admin says something is fine, the other says otherwise. This can be confusing and troublesome for many players who end up getting punished unintentionally.
Example, some admins like when you reply 'lol' to a funny kick or ban. Some would kick or warn you for commenting.
I agree into that point but have you concidered the term "punishable". It does not say admins have to use their tools in anyway to enforce rules if they want. It is still a judgement of the individual admin if he punishes for a rulebreak or not. Still your example is a rulebreak and it is punishable, therefore admins can punish if they feel it is necessary.
2) Many people including admins punch each other, run around and car kill friends.
However, sometimes players get in trouble for that. I did once, and I got warned for death matching for punching a friend because its attacking a player for no reason. Also, I was told that it misleads new players. Which I think is absolutely true. I don't think its right for admins to run around with red names punching each other either. That misleads players more, and just isn't right.
Also true, even I admit I like to mess with admins and did it as admin. True is also that this does mislead (especially newbies), what you mean by misleading new players is that admins tells you to not do it, while they do. That's truly a issue, but like always hard to regulate by other admins. This is a matter where the admin himself must decide if he does it or not. Otherwise I am pretty sure admins that are being catch will receive the advice to drop it by Managers. In worst case if the admin attacks you with no reason against your intention, I advice you to write a email to [email protected] or the specific server email.
3) Killing events.
I used to host many Kill The Chicken events and one day I was told by pancher that it causes a huge mess. New players are mislead and the roleplay is destroyed as cops get involved etc. Completely agreed. But I still see admins hosting exactly the same killing events. This should be enforced too.
I really don't know what to say to this topic...
4) Admins mixing roleplay with admin duty.
Now this happens a lot. Admins do sometimes mix roleplay with admin work. If some players are breaking the law, or company, SAPD, or such rules, they shouldn't be punished for it. Admins should only enforce server rules.
I barely seen it. You sure you ain't mixing up that some rules that apply to SAPD are allowed to be enforced by Admins? The server rules does not list all things Admins can punish since SAPD also has rules that apply once you are going on duty, doesn't matter if you are Freecop or a active member of SAPD. Such like "do not shoot still standing suspects" and so on... Some enforced rules are not as clear as it seems, though I am sure you know that the most enforced rules are as they are. The Staff has a reason for being able to cop-ban (which is actually a cop-tool)
Little Edit: If you see warnings like "Driving on false side" or such, remember that a rule could still be meant! Admins are very busy and acting fast, that can cause little misunderstandings in their "Punishment Reason", mostly is still a actual rule break meant.
5)Admins banning or kicking with funny comments.
Initially it was all right. Hackers got banned for "wrong kind of RPG" etc. However now, I often see that people are kicked or banned with funny comments that could be seen as provokative and are just not right. I remember seeing a guy getting banned and the admin sort of made fun of his bad English. It isn't nice behaviour specially as admins. If someone publicly says that on main chat he would be punished. So I suggest we end this funny comments in kicks and bans.
However in worst case [email protected] (Be still sure, if a Manager is online as well the Admin doesn't have a chance to laugh because of his super cool joke! :D)
6) Cops admins and criminal admins.
Now this is kind of link to the first problem. Things aren't judged exactly the same.
As a judge, we are told that every case is to be judged the same. If we don't it causes problems. Now the cop admins have different views and the criminal admins have different views. And this causes problems.
In the end they still follow the same guidelines that you can read on SA:MP General Board. But I also noticed that they act different but I think this is more a matter of strictness. Some Criminal-Admins see low deathmatch less strict than Cop-Admins, but it's actually just because they are playing on exactly those 2 sites. If you would be the guy at the Bar you would also care less about it if you do less in liquid in the glass, than your guest would care. :)
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Regarding admins mixing roleplay and admin duty. Here are two real incidents.
Once I wanted to test my sound mod, but did not wanted to get suspected. So when the cops were not around I shot in the air. I was at city hall and admins are usually ther. So one admin got off admin duty and suspected me. Now that's how they mix it. After he's done, he probably went on admin duty again.
Another mixup was when a friend was severely punished. Banned to be precise for breaking SAPD regulation. Its a mixup by an admin.
Regarding punching admins, Jacob. Thing is sometimes we are punished for it. But admins do it. So either allow us too, or stop it yourself.
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I was just about to go to bed but this was a pretty well written topic so here are some of my thoughts both as someone who was an involved member of the community for several years, and as an ex-admin up to level 4.
1) The judgment isn't the same.
One admin says something is fine, the other says otherwise. This can be confusing and troublesome for many players who end up getting punished unintentionally.
Example, some admins like when you reply 'lol' to a funny kick or ban. Some would kick or warn you for commenting.
Admins do not have a perfectly clear set of rules to follow, the same as players on the server. The server rules are worded in such a way that they can be interpreted any number of ways, and as such some admins will (in a very basic sense) follow (and punish for breaking) entirely different rules. This is the source of the disparity that you describe.
I got warned for death matching for punching a friend because its attacking a player for no reason.
Again, the rules can be read in any number of ways concerning that scenario.
3) Killing events.
I used to host many Kill The Chicken events and one day I was told by pancher that it causes a huge mess. New players are mislead and the roleplay is destroyed as cops get involved etc. Completely agreed. But I still see admins hosting exactly the same killing events. This should be enforced too.
Unfortunately I once again have to use the same point as above that it's entirely up to the personal opinion and discretion of the admin.
However, one point that's worth mentioning is that admins have the tools to far more easily control an event of that nature, so that's the main reason there.
4) Admins mixing roleplay with admin duty.
Now this happens a lot. Admins do sometimes mix roleplay with admin work. If some players are breaking the law, or company, SAPD, or such rules, they shouldn't be punished for it. Admins should only enforce server rules.
This probably stems from simple confusion between server rules and SAPD regulations. In the case of the SAPD regs, well.. there are a f**king lot of them.
5)Admins banning or kicking with funny comments.
I agree with you, punishment reasons should be clear, concise and professional, particularly bans and especially since the automatic ban log was added, which was f**king years ago.
6) Cops admins and criminal admins.
Now this is kind of link to the first problem. Things aren't judged exactly the same.
As a judge, we are told that every case is to be judged the same. If we don't it causes problems. Now the cop admins have different views and the criminal admins have different views. And this causes problems.
Oh boy, here we go.
In general, a vast majority of admins over the course of the server's history have been primarily cops. You can argue this however much you want but as far as I'm concerned it's just a fact. This more clearly shows the effect that you are describing on a large scale and over a longer period of time, which anyone who has the ability to objectively assess the situation should have been able to see over the years.
Anyway, you are indeed correct that cop admins and criminal admins have different views. For a time, it was balanced as any admin actions that were biased against one side were argued in admin chat by the admins of that side. I'm not sure if that happens any more, but I know for damn sure that when all the criminal admins were kicked (along with loads of cop admins too, I know) the balance was broken as nobody argued against biased decisions against suspects and criminal groups for a time. Since then I know new criminal admins have joined the team so it's probably better now, but as far as I'm concerned as long as there is roughly a balance then it usually works out alright. The only other option is to only let non-criminal civilian players be admins but, for one, aren't enough active people that do that and secondly that's clearly just a dumb idea.
For an example outside of admins, this balance effect can also be observed on the forums in the ideas section. If there were no criminal players posting on cop idea topics saying they didn't like it then all of the ridiculous cop ideas would get unanimous support and they'd be put in. As with admin opinions, it's about finding a balance that means a nice middle ground is achieved. Of course, in the forum example, this balance was never found, meaning that criminals were forced to appear completely opposed to cop ideas that actually had some merit, merely in an attempt to balance the odds. You can use this point as an example of why you might sometimes hear of obscenely biased decisions from admins. The principle is the same.
I'm sure admins do not take this topic in a bad way. I'm trying to help by opening and discussing the concerns I have. By talking and figuring out solutions, we can all reach a better level of understanding.
Please take my post with this sentiment as well, I'm not trying to antagonise anyone, merely post my observations as a player since '07 and an ex-admin too.
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1) The judgment isn't the same.
One admin says something is fine, the other says otherwise. This can be confusing and troublesome for many players who end up getting punished unintentionally.
Example, some admins like when you reply 'lol' to a funny kick or ban. Some would kick or warn you for commenting.
The admins don't really have any guidelines to follow except on obvious cases, they've been chosen because the HQ believe the admin is helpful, mature and know the rules.
After you've been chosen, there is no end-test, so the admin is merely reflecting his own understanding of the rules, not anyone else's.
To answer your example, comments made by players about a punishment is allowed, however if the comment is provocative against the guy getting punished then it's not allowed.
For example, Player 1 was warned by Admin 1 for death-matching
Player 2: lol *not punishable*
Player 3: He fucking deserved it!*punishable*
2) Many people including admins punch each other, run around and car kill friends.
However, sometimes players get in trouble for that. I did once, and I got warned for death matching for punching a friend because its attacking a player for no reason. Also, I was told that it misleads new players. Which I think is absolutely true. I don't think its right for admins to run around with red names punching each other either. That misleads players more, and just isn't right.
Correct, report it to [email protected] since you are not allowed to report an administrator in-game.
3) Killing events.
I used to host many Kill The Chicken events and one day I was told by pancher that it causes a huge mess. New players are mislead and the roleplay is destroyed as cops get involved etc. Completely agreed. But I still see admins hosting exactly the same killing events. This should be enforced too.
"Kill events" are allowed, however the "VIP" in question should not drive around BC-TR, he should visit important landmarks, i.e Hunter's Quarry.
4) Admins mixing roleplay with admin duty.
Now this happens a lot. Admins do sometimes mix roleplay with admin work. If some players are breaking the law, or company, SAPD, or such rules, they shouldn't be punished for it. Admins should only enforce server rules.
I don't understand what you wanted said here.
Do you mean players get warned for reckless driving?
5)Admins banning or kicking with funny comments.
Initially it was all right. Hackers got banned for "wrong kind of RPG" etc. However now, I often see that people are kicked or banned with funny comments that could be seen as provokative and are just not right. I remember seeing a guy getting banned and the admin sort of made fun of his bad English. It isn't nice behaviour specially as admins. If someone publicly says that on main chat he would be punished. So I suggest we end this funny comments in kicks and bans.
Admins are not allowed to punish players with funny comments.
If I remember correctly, the reason must first-hand be very clear and specific, so not to confuse players in-game.
An example, admins must write "Death-matching is not allowed", as a reason and not "DM", "Airbreak hacks" and not "Hack".
6) Cops admins and criminal admins.
Now this is kind of link to the first problem. Things aren't judged exactly the same.
As a judge, we are told that every case is to be judged the same. If we don't it causes problems. Now the cop admins have different views and the criminal admins have different views. And this causes problems.
Obviously all cases should be judged the same and without an admin being biased.
The "views" are their own reflection of the rules, read my answer on your first statement.
As an ex-"criminal" admin, I don't see this as true.
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Please go down again please.
Hope to see Woka again
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Please go down again please.
Hope to see Woka again
So we are down for 2 weeks and you hate us so much you still feel compelled to watch every day just to come here and shit on us ?
Yep... we are good! :devroll:
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I agree with you 100% Bond ... Once i scammed someone 50k in casino before like 4 months , i talked to the admin about that and he forgave me , 20 minutes later another admin logged in and banned me for '' Scamming in casino is not allowed '' . Some admins have no relations with each other they punish the person not because of what he did but because of who's that person and if they were in a good mood or not .
I dont mean to disrespect the Admin team but there are some things need to be changed .
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So we are down for 2 weeks and you hate us so much you still feel compelled to watch every day just to come here and shit on us ?
Yep... we are good! :devroll:
Ohh, so the 2 weeks was just enough to get some extra money to pay the bills of yours and now pay for the server because of the donations ? Money hungry bastards
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I agree with you 100% Bond ... Once i scammed someone 50k in casino before like 4 months , i talked to the admin about that and he forgave me , 20 minutes later another admin logged in and banned me for '' Scamming in casino is not allowed '' . Some admins have no relations with each other they punish the person not because of what he did but because of who's that person and if they were in a good mood or not .
I dont mean to disrespect the Admin team but there are some things need to be changed .
Yep, the admin that forgave you should be kicked from the team.
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I agree with you 100% Bond ... Once i scammed someone 50k in casino before like 4 months , i talked to the admin about that and he forgave me , 20 minutes later another admin logged in and banned me for '' Scamming in casino is not allowed '' . Some admins have no relations with each other they punish the person not because of what he did but because of who's that person and if they were in a good mood or not .
I dont mean to disrespect the Admin team but there are some things need to be changed .
You literally calling admins racist... Way to go :razz:
We don't ban players because we are in a bad mood... We don't ban players because our girlfriend left us... We don't ban players because we failed at the latest math test... We don't ban players because we are bored... We don't ban players because we can... We don't ban players because we fight with our relatives... We ban players who break the rules. Simple as that.
Mistakes happens. If we wouldn't commit wrongdoings, we shouldn't be humans. If we make a mistake, laugh and be polite. No need to be rude and aggressive.
We don't rage at you each time you hit a lamppost, right? ;)
I completely misread your post.. Disregard :redface:
Ohh, so the 2 weeks was just enough to get some extra money to pay the bills of yours and now pay for the server because of the donations ? Money hungry bastards
:rofl:
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Ohh, so the 2 weeks was just enough to get some extra money to pay the bills of yours and now pay for the server because of the donations ? Money hungry bastards
Sure... in 7 years we have paid over Eur 10.000 to keep Argonath up. Yeah we are money hungry.
Now go back to your server where people pay money for VIP status and buy 'special' cars and houses with real life money, and sit there calling us money hungry because we do not have such things and you do not have thee skills to make enough without using real life money....
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I would like to remind ya'll, that this ain't a playground for a Admin VS Players match. Nor it is a discussion about how the owners spend money. *cough*
Actually, it is a Admin VS players topic. So back on topic, regarding the admin behavior on duty.
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Sure... in 7 years we have paid over Eur 10.000 to keep Argonath up. Yeah we are money hungry.
Now go back to your server where people pay money for VIP status and buy 'special' cars and houses with real life money, and sit there calling us money hungry because we do not have such things and you do not have thee skills to make enough without using real life money....
I played on a cops and robbers server where you could pay 5$ to have a hat on you untill you die.. so yeah.. thanks gandalf for not making dumb stuff like that..
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I believe that both have concerns that need to be issued upon. I have had past issues with admins, and to be honest, i believe that an admin channel would be able to solve it. if there already is a channel, then admins need to figure their stuff out. but if not, then its understandable as to where the confusion happens. and yes, no one is perfect, but there is always ways to strive for perfection and if admins are willing to say, well no one is perfect, well then they shouldnt be admins. admins should be able to admit wen a mistake is made, not make excuses as to why it happened. it just seems like there are some admins that need to be looked into, but there are admins that always get the right way to handle any situation down. so yes, i feel both sides are right, but i also feel that there are ways to solve both sides of their problems.
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Yep, the admin that forgave you should be kicked from the team.
Well , Thats make no sense . When a player scams me its ok admins forgave him But when i scam someone i should be banned . That confuses me .. Shall i try my luck and play on 1 mil bet ? if i won i wil ltake the money and if i lose nothing will happend thats what happend to me as there was someone scammed me before i scammed the 50k . admins didnt ban him they were in a good mood but when i scammed the 50k admins were in a bad mood so they banned me .Btw that admin you are talking about is not kicked yet ..
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And Managers are coming online at forums but not looking in our unban requests why ?? ?
First of all we waited 2 weeks and now i am banned for a non-sense reason for advertising another server lol and i got banned on Argonath temp server and they are including temp server ban in real server help me ... And let me clear one thing here i didn't gave any kind of advertise in-game it was on Facebook it means out of game ....
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Sure... in 7 years we have paid over Eur 10.000 to keep Argonath up. Yeah we are money hungry.
Now go back to your server where people pay money for VIP status and buy 'special' cars and houses with real life money, and sit there calling us money hungry because we do not have such things and you do not have thee skills to make enough without using real life money....
I know what server your talking about and if you knew how much they paid each year You would have big eyes. Yes krisk could go ahead use all the 8.000USD every year, buying a new nice phone and shit.
Hes paying all the money earned from donations and yes i said 8.000 if you knew how much the server host is costing them you would have big eyes sir
So if you wanna talk. who is the money hungry person here.
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Can't agree more,plus that admins take actions on players before they hear the whole story,i mean if he sees someone attacking someone then he punishes him/her for deathmatching,but in fact they were rping a street fight.
Argonath needs more topics like this because most of new players think that admins are always right,but we all know that it's not true.
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Well , Thats make no sense . When a player scams me its ok admins forgave him But when i scam someone i should be banned . That confuses me .. Shall i try my luck and play on 1 mil bet ? if i won i wil ltake the money and if i lose nothing will happend thats what happend to me as there was someone scammed me before i scammed the 50k . admins didnt ban him they were in a good mood but when i scammed the 50k admins were in a bad mood so they banned me .
how about you focus on urself. just because one person gets away with it, does not mean its ok to do it. i see ppl getting away with DM-ing, but you dont see me doing that do you? no, why? because im one of those few players who understand that rules r rules. if you try to get away with something, you might get caught. if you dont want to be banned, follow the rules
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I know what server your talking about and if you knew how much they paid each year You would have big eyes. Yes krisk could go ahead use all the 8.000USD every year, buying a new nice phone and shit.
Hes paying all the money earned from donations and yes i said 8.000 if you knew how much the server host is costing them you would have big eyes sir
What's your goal? To take down Argonath? Well dude I think you aren't the first one and still Argonath is unharmed. So, please don't come here to give negative comments.
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how about you focus on urself. just because one person gets away with it, does not mean its ok to do it. i see ppl getting away with DM-ing, but you dont see me doing that do you? no, why? because im one of those few players who understand that rules r rules. if you try to get away with something, you might get caught. if you dont want to be banned, follow the rules
''But you dont see me doing that do you ? '' I dont even know you .
Well who said one time ? i gave one example .. i had been scamed for more than 500k by many people which they were'nt punished by the admin team .
When i see that the admin team is not helping me to get back my money so i have to do what others do .
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I think I left a post in this topic that I spent an hour on or so, and it's gone. Odd.
EDIT:
Nevermind, I left that post in another topic by the same author, which had some points that were the exact same :razz: :
http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=94874.msg1514706#msg1514706 (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=94874.msg1514706#msg1514706)
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I know what server your talking about and if you knew how much they paid each year You would have big eyes. Yes krisk could go ahead use all the 8.000USD every year, buying a new nice phone and shit.
Hes paying all the money earned from donations and yes i said 8.000 if you knew how much the server host is costing them you would have big eyes sir
So if you wanna talk. who is the money hungry person here.
He is.
I know how much servers cost, and I know how we would improve things if we received USD 8000 in donations per year.
If you want to know: for $750 per month we can run 3 Xeon servers with 32Gb RAM and 4TB space in Raid1, and add a hardware Cisco firewall it dynamic IP routing to stop any DDOS attacks. or use 5 to 6 smaller servers.
This way we could add about 10 extra games, expand the site and forums and still have capacity extra.
So whatever he TELLS you he is paying, I would like to see him put up an honest financial report like we do.
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I would like to remind ya'll, that this ain't a playground for a Admin VS Players match. Nor it is a discussion about how the owners spend money. *cough*
Actually, it is a Admin VS players topic. So back on topic, regarding the admin behavior on duty.
There is no use to discuss admin behaviour on forum. Every player who is punished might feel thay had a good reason to do what they did and try to make the admin look bad.
The diversity in the admin team is needed. If all admins would act as similar robots, it would make things far worse.
Now I do agree that admins should admit their mistakes. I try to give the example by admitting, as I am not perfect nor is anyone else. However it should not be limited to admins. Players should admit their mistakes and not try to lie and weasel their way out of it.
Similar is the question of unequal punishment. If I drive through a red light and get a warning, then you drive through the same light and get a ticket, it is not correct that you complain. You broke the law, you get a ticket and that someone else got a warning can depend on many circumstances.
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And Managers are coming online at forums but not looking in our unban requests why ?? ?
First of all we waited 2 weeks and now i am banned for a non-sense reason for advertising another server lol and i got banned on Argonath temp server and they are including temp server ban in real server help me ... And let me clear one thing here i didn't gave any kind of advertise in-game it was on Facebook it means out of game ....
Please can i have answere of this Quote ...... ???
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Please can i have answere of this Quote ...... ???
Answer : Patience
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He is.
I know how much servers cost, and I know how we would improve things if we received USD 8000 in donations per year.
If you want to know: for $750 per month we can run 3 Xeon servers with 32Gb RAM and 4TB space in Raid1, and add a hardware Cisco firewall it dynamic IP routing to stop any DDOS attacks. or use 5 to 6 smaller servers.
This way we could add about 10 extra games, expand the site and forums and still have capacity extra.
So whatever he TELLS you he is paying, I would like to see him put up an honest financial report like we do.
Go ahead ask him yourself.
And atleast he has a anticheat program on the server
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Go ahead ask him yourself.
And atleast he has a anticheat program on the server
Well here admins are capable to recognize hacks and players whom do so, they don't need some programs to tell them, they're not that stupid as admins on that "server". Also if you don't like it here, why don't you leave?
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Well here admins are capable to recognize hacks and players whom do so, they don't need some programs to tell them, they're not that stupid as admins on that "server". Also if you don't like it here, why don't you leave?
Let him be, that particular statement just confirmed his stupidity..
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Go ahead ask him yourself.
And atleast he has a anticheat program on the server
We are one of the first to write anticheats, and we have one of the most advanced systems on it. However there is one difference with others: we are aware that any anticheat can create false positives, and refuse to let people be banned without reason just because of some idiots who can not play fair.
Oh and when I was talking about Eur 10.000 that is the money we paid from our pockets, the total cost is a lot higher. What we receive in donations and ads does not count in that amount.
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Please can i have answere of this Quote ...... ???
Getting unbanned is not a right but a priviledge.
That you might have to wait for your unban request to be handled is something you may try to think of before breaking the rules and getting banned.
Any ban on the temp server will be transferred to the main server. If you think that just because it is a temp server it is ok to get banned you are wRONg.
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make me a community leader - problem solved
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make me a community leader - problem solved
Yep, losing all players solves the problem too. :rofl:
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And Managers are coming online at forums but not looking in our unban requests why ?? ?
First of all we waited 2 weeks and now i am banned for a non-sense reason for advertising another server lol and i got banned on Argonath temp server and they are including temp server ban in real server help me ... And let me clear one thing here i didn't gave any kind of advertise in-game it was on Facebook it means out of game ....
Manager is not a robot, I'm convinced they're checking unban request everyday. This is not a place to gripe, admin is not dumb to ban people for no apparent reasons. Just because it was temp server doesn't mean you can do everything arbitrarily. Now, just get back on the topic. It's not unban appeal.
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The temporary server bears the communities name which means it is a part of the community, just because it was a "temporary" server does not mean you may misbehave.
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Can't agree more,plus that admins take actions on players before they hear the whole story,i mean if he sees someone attacking someone then he punishes him/her for deathmatching,but in fact they were rping a street fight.
Argonath needs more topics like this because most of new players think that admins are always right,but we all know that it's not true.
I can give you an answer as former admin.
There are around 23 178 players registered on this forum, I think you can imagine how many players there are daily on ten different gaming servers. Lets plus all those visitors, who don't register on forums nor actually join the community.
About administration team, Argonath got around 70-80 members, which contains at least one-third inactive, 50 members remain. If you look the ratio of players and administrators, you may notice its almost comical.
If one percent of those daily players breaks a rule, its over 231. (1%, not 40% which is the real amount)
231 f**king stories heard, logchecks, background and investigations done, time spent 20-30 minutes per case. 5775 minutes daily.
At this point you may notice, moaning is the last thing you may do.
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The ones that are agreeing with the above points have rather colourful punishment history in-game. :gun:
No, Mine is clean.
But I agree with it. :p
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Instead of just posting "I agree", elaborate.
Players are treated differently by admins than others, for example, admins run round punching eachother for fun, but when players do it they get punished.
Certain players are punished differently depending on what groups they are in, for example someone in Rstar who drives round ramming people doesn't get punished where as someone who isnt in Rstar does, of course I just used Rstar as an example as it is a group for 'popular' players.
Theres many different scenario's for what I said above, and I've experienced it many times myself, and seen others experiencing it, however everytime I mention it, I get banned or muted, like I currently am, as some forum moderators seem to enjoy using the punishment system on very very minor things.
As a moderator has said this topic is for constructive criticism, I doubt there'd be any problem with what I've said above, as someone keeps removing alot of my posts for no real reason, or not submitting them for the sake of annoying me.
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All those clowns who have nothing to do but post stupid shit against the community and advertise other servers should get lost.
This topic was made with the intention of directing fire at admins. The first post itself is an attempt to highlight negative incidents in the admin team, and the topic itself has attracted other cockroaches who take the opportunity to post against the administration. If anything deserves to be highlighted, it is how the admins have worked to keep the community in order, with some providing helpful updates on Facebook for our players in the absence of the Argonath network of sites.
If you really want to help solve the problems, you would have talked to the proper authorities and submitted a proper complaint instead of waving around admins' mistakes in public. Reporting admins who break rules solves the problem, making a topic complaining about them only creates more negativity.
The disguise of "constructive criticism" may have fooled others, but it isn't fooling me.
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ok
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*long post here*
This. Best post. Some just don't realize what goes on in the background.
The fact that some admins use the commands to their advantage shouldn't be allowed. Case closed. Those who do, report them via the correct form, not via threads. Though you may view some admins simply sitting on their asses not doing anything, most actually do a lot of the work behind the scenes.
Remember, playing on Argonath is not a right, it is a privilege. That privilege can easily be taken away.
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JDC, James is trying to help the community improve, if he was here to only shit on the community, he would not do all this effort and write down that damn essay.
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Bring in a new feature : Guest admins.
Where randomly chosen players get to admin/moderate the server for a week (ofcourse, you must be qualified enough, like a veteran on the server, no long punishment history, and if you are caught abusing your rights, community ban ). Everyone gets to know what actually happens behind the scene.
Zero moaning from both player and admin sides.
Problem solved.
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Getting unbanned is not a right but a priviledge.
That you might have to wait for your unban request to be handled is something you may try to think of before breaking the rules and getting banned.
Any ban on the temp server will be transferred to the main server. If you think that just because it is a temp server it is ok to get banned you are wRONg.
Yeah i know very well all who got banned on temp server will be transfer to permanent server but i didn't advertise anything in the server then why i got banned ???
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Everyone gets to know what actually happens behind the scene.
Ever thought it might have been made this way for a reason? :poke:
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Bring in a new feature : Guest admins.
Where randomly chosen players get to admin/moderate the server for a week (ofcourse, you must be qualified enough, like a veteran on the server, no long punishment history, and if you are caught abusing your rights, community ban ). Everyone gets to know what actually happens behind the scene.
Zero moaning from both player and admin sides.
Problem solved.
Managers won't play with administrative rights. They won't give rights to people for 1 week or so. If you want to get admin rights, work for it.
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Bring in a new feature : Guest admins.
Where randomly chosen players get to admin/moderate the server for a week (ofcourse, you must be qualified enough, like a veteran on the server, no long punishment history, and if you are caught abusing your rights, community ban ). Everyone gets to know what actually happens behind the scene.
Zero moaning from both player and admin sides.
Problem solved.
No.
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Bring in a new feature : Guest admins.
Where randomly chosen players get to admin/moderate the server for a week (ofcourse, you must be qualified enough, like a veteran on the server, no long punishment history, and if you are caught abusing your rights, community ban ). Everyone gets to know what actually happens behind the scene.
Zero moaning from both player and admin sides.
Problem solved.
All or none, we are not giving out "temp rights".
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Yeah i know very well all who got banned on temp server will be transfer to permanent server but i didn't advertise anything in the server then why i got banned ???
This is not your unban request. Do not expect answers on your situation here.
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This is not your unban request. Do not expect answers on your situation here.
I Just only want to ask 1 question
Another person advertise the server at Facebook and Zaila banned me Because he seen my name in the advertise it is in-justice or not ??? And what is the relationship of facebook advertise with Argonath RPG ??
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Players are treated differently by admins than others, for example, admins run round punching eachother for fun, but when players do it they get punished.
Certain players are punished differently depending on what groups they are in, for example someone in Rstar who drives round ramming people doesn't get punished where as someone who isnt in Rstar does, of course I just used Rstar as an example as it is a group for 'popular' players.
Theres many different scenario's for what I said above, and I've experienced it many times myself, and seen others experiencing it, however everytime I mention it, I get banned or muted, like I currently am, as some forum moderators seem to enjoy using the punishment system on very very minor things.
As a moderator has said this topic is for constructive criticism, I doubt there'd be any problem with what I've said above, as someone keeps removing alot of my posts for no real reason, or not submitting them for the sake of annoying me.
For admins, managers and scripters the same rules apply as to players.
In fact we require them to be even more strict on the rules, as they have an example function for players.
As for certain groups being punished more or less than others, the rules apply to all. However due to their reputation and the way they manage their members, some groups will be given the opportunity to explain their actions more than others. A group known for being on the edge of the rules will be handled more strict.
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Bring in a new feature : Guest admins.
Where randomly chosen players get to admin/moderate the server for a week (ofcourse, you must be qualified enough, like a veteran on the server, no long punishment history, and if you are caught abusing your rights, community ban ). Everyone gets to know what actually happens behind the scene.
Zero moaning from both player and admin sides.
Problem solved.
In general it takes more than one week to properly train a moderator. There for it is not possible.
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I Just only want to ask 1 question
Another person advertise the server at Facebook and Zaila banned me Because he seen my name in the advertise it is in-justice or not ??? And what is the relationship of facebook advertise with Argonath RPG ??
This is not the place to discuss your unban. Any further questions in this topic will increase your ban time by 1 week per post.
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This is not the place to discuss your unban. Any further questions in this topic will increase your ban time by 1 week per post.
Okay i stoped here i won't discuss anything ....Sorry if i said anything wrong
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Okay i stoped here i won't discuss anything ....Sorry if i said anything wrong
Took you long enough to realize. A wise man requires only one instruction.
JDC, James is trying to help the community improve, if he was here to only shit on the community, he would not do all this effort and write down that damn essay.
I could just as easily start a campaign of character assassination against the administration under the start of "constructive criticism". You seem to be under the presumption that shitting on the community and/or administration is exclusive to a certain variety of forms.
If you truly want to help this community, you will devote your effort to help solving the problems. The way to do that is to report those admins who are in the wrong to their superiors, so that we in the Management can see to it that they continue to abide by the same rules that they enforce. Waving around and calling attention to their mistakes in public is NOT the solution, and is still a form of public complaining.
It's not that hard to understand, you can also WORK to make this community better, instead of sitting on ass and making topics about whoever.
Everyone gets to know what actually happens behind the scene.
Zero moaning from both player and admin sides.
Your ideas are terrible and full of presumptions. I recommend you research on how the admin team actually works (or at least, the non-secure information abuot it) before proposing reforms.
Admin posts are classified for security reasons. Revealing them all will make it impossible for us to launch any proper investigation.
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Ever thought it might have been made this way for a reason? :poke:
Just don't give them forum rights and stuff? :poke:
This can actually be a good way to know who is suitable for working as an administrator too, instead of the applications system.
One or two + year old veterans might actually be smart enough to set into the moderator roles quite quick, no?
I'm not talking of giving everyone a chance to become an admin, but only elite people.
I'm not going to name anyone out of the player base but admins and ex admins, just for example.
Lets say, Jcstodds, Shejken and Frank Hawk have been playing since 3 years, they always help players on the server, and never broke a rule. What might be wrong in giving them guest admin rights for a week or so?
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Just don't give them forum rights and stuff? :poke:
This can actually be a good way to know who is suitable for working as an administrator too, instead of the applications system.
One or two + year old veterans might actually be smart enough to set into the moderator roles quite quick, no?
I'm not talking of giving everyone a chance to become an admin, but only elite people.
I'm not going to name anyone out of the player base but admins and ex admins, just for example.
Lets say, Jcstodds, Shejken and Frank Hawk have been playing since 3 years, they always help players on the server, and never broke a rule. What might be wrong in giving them guest admin rights for a week or so?
If they have interest, they should already have applied and would probably be selected. If they did not apply, why should we invite them ?
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Ah mattie... :lol:
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Just don't give them forum rights and stuff? :poke:
Presumption #1: Giving forum rights to "guest" admins who have not earned trust on the level of the regular admins is a good idea.
False. There is a reason why forum rights are restricted to carefully selected board moderators and the Management. Horrible idea.
This can actually be a good way to know who is suitable for working as an administrator too, instead of the applications system.
Presumption #2: Stated above.
False. Those who are actually suitable for administrators need to possess an interest in working with the team. Anyone who does so will make an application.
One or two + year old veterans might actually be smart enough to set into the moderator roles quite quick, no?
Presumption #3: Tenure in the community is a base for veterancy or suitability.
This is false. Many players who have been here far longer than one or two years are totally unsuitable for positions in the Argonath administration. Some of them have become worse fuck-ups than relatively younger rulebreakers.
I'm not talking of giving everyone a chance to become an admin, but only elite people.
I'm not going to name anyone out of the player base but admins and ex admins, just for example.
Presumption #4: Elitism.
That argument does not even make any sense. Not to mention that many ex-admins have more notable reasons for their being ex-admins.
Frank Hawk... never broke a rule... What might be wrong in giving them guest admin rights for a week or so?
Presumption #5.
An example of your flawed knowledge. Research on the history of the Idlewood ballas and their records with the administration, but that is a story for another time.
Your arguments are full of presumptions far detached from reality. Before trying to propose reform, do research on how things actually work. Not only will you look more sensible, but you'll also avoid presenting content that becomes a laughingstock.
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I remember why I don't like or even go to church.
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Many topics like this have been posted before, and it have always get the same response from administration and management. Why do you even bother to keep posting topics there you point out how administration do their work?
An email exist. I advise you use it for this kind of situations.
Speak about creating a shitstorm, which could easily be avoided... You can send the same topic to [email protected]. Other players' opinions are irrelevant in your case. You are unhappy, you do something about it. That something is to send an email to [email protected].
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All those clowns who have nothing to do but post stupid shit against the community and advertise other servers should get lost.
This topic was made with the intention of directing fire at admins. The first post itself is an attempt to highlight negative incidents in the admin team, and the topic itself has attracted other cockroaches who take the opportunity to post against the administration. If anything deserves to be highlighted, it is how the admins have worked to keep the community in order, with some providing helpful updates on Facebook for our players in the absence of the Argonath network of sites.
If you really want to help solve the problems, you would have talked to the proper authorities and submitted a proper complaint instead of waving around admins' mistakes in public. Reporting admins who break rules solves the problem, making a topic complaining about them only creates more negativity.
The disguise of "constructive criticism" may have fooled others, but it isn't fooling me.
Get off your high horse, it's really irritating when faint attempts for at the very least SOME dialogue gets redirected as any attempt to put shit on oneanother.
To begin with, your post itself contains shitting on your so-called "cockroaches" who are actually players of the server. Yes, I am telling you straight in the eyes you're disrespecting, basically, everyone who isn't associated with any "leading parties" of the servers as shitters.
Secondly, unlike you, there have been some admins who have the balls to try and answer for the public. Special thanks to Gandalf, Shejken and Cyril.
Finally, if you are getting offended by these kind of topics, stay out of them. A) Nobody forces you to check them out. B) Nobody forces you to answer; by making posts such as the one I quoted you are just asking for trouble, maybe even provoking. Is that what you actually want? Indeed you don't. If you indeed do feel that people are shitting on others here, redirect your complains to [email protected] or, heck, you could even use the goddamn "Report to moderators" button.
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Gandalf why are you not replying me ?? Is this right someone have to talk urgently and your not replying please i need your help reply me i made a topic for you and someone removed the topic also why they don't want me to talk with you ?? Please reply me ..
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Gandalf why are you not replying me ?? Is this right someone have to talk urgently and your not replying please i need your help reply me i made a topic for you and someone removed the topic also why they don't want me to talk with you ?? Please reply me ..
As I was inactive, I have zero knowledge about your ban. There for I leave it to those people who know what you did and when you did it.
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As I was inactive, I have zero knowledge about your ban. There for I leave it to those people who know what you did and when you did it.
Yeah i know you was in-active but i will tell you all the situation ?? Can i pm you ??
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Yeah i know you was in-active but i will tell you all the situation ?? Can i pm you ??
Did we not agree this is not your unban topic?
As for telling me your side, better post it in your topic so that the managers and banning admin can post why they banned you. Much easier and faster as bothering me.
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Or you check closed unban request section... :roll:
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Did we not agree this is not your unban topic?
As for telling me your side, better post it in your topic so that the managers and banning admin can post why they banned you. Much easier and faster as bothering me.
I know they won't unban me even they won't let me post an unban request i am posting an unban request and denied ... Your Owner so please i am requesting you to give me permission to post an unban request i won't leave argo Because argo is my life ..
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Get off your high horse, it's really irritating when faint attempts for at the very least SOME dialogue gets redirected as any attempt to put shit on oneanother.
To begin with, your post itself contains shitting on your so-called "cockroaches" who are actually players of the server. Yes, I am telling you straight in the eyes you're disrespecting, basically, everyone who isn't associated with any "leading parties" of the servers as shitters.
Secondly, unlike you, there have been some admins who have the balls to try and answer for the public. Special thanks to Gandalf, Shejken and Cyril.
Finally, if you are getting offended by these kind of topics, stay out of them. A) Nobody forces you to check them out. B) Nobody forces you to answer; by making posts such as the one I quoted you are just asking for trouble, maybe even provoking. Is that what you actually want? Indeed you don't. If you indeed do feel that people are shitting on others here, redirect your complains to [email protected] or, heck, you could even use the goddamn "Report to moderators" button.
If anything is irritating, it is people who defend and encourage attempts to shit on or compromise the administration in any form whatsoever.
"Dialogue" is a proper discourse on a certain matter, not making a topic meant to highlight the mistakes of the administration. Notwithstanding your skewed logic, the post itself is also meant to draw fire towards the administration. How the administration does its job is decided by standards given to us by the Owners, and not by the demands of certain players. Admins are not 'Gods of the server', but neither are we nannies who kowtow to everyone's demands and change everyone's diapers.
How is this topic wrong? Many topics such as this have been made before, some more brazen in their show of fire against the admin team than others. And the proper solution has been posted many times: admins who break the rules are to be reported to their respective servers' complaint emails. Yet, people choose not to understand, and to make these topics again and again.
An example of the solution: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=86639.0 (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=86639.0)
...if you really care for the community, you should not shit on our helpers who work for hours to protect the server. If you see problems in their work, you must report them properly to leaders, including myself. We do not ignore reports unless they are merely criticism towards particular admins or unless they lack appropriate evidence.
As for Kirgiz, I'll credit how you sugarcoat your words. The administration is on the same side as all players who take the effort to abide by the rules in order to keep the experience positive for everyone. As some of our Leaders have said, no respect for anyone who chooses to shit Argonath community. Those who defend shitters might as well join them.
If you are offended when someone confronts you with the proper and legitimate solution to the problems at hand, then no one is forcing you to read. Not surprised though, as your stance is typical of people with colorful punishment histories.
And if you still do not understand the point so far, it is very simple.
Report rulebreaking admins to the complaint email and do not make topics about them on forums.
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Self-reflection is a virtue, JDC.
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Self-reflection is a virtue, JDC.
Says the person with 12 legitimate forum punishments in 6 months, all for flaming and trolling. Apply yourself.
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Says the person with 12 legitimate forum punishments in 6 months, all for flaming and trolling. Apply yourself.
.. and what exactly does any amount of punishment has to do with a person's opinion?
Get back on topic instead of provoking one another, people.
Presumption #4: Elitism.
That argument does not even make any sense. Not to mention that many ex-admins have more notable reasons for their being ex-admins.
Presumption #5.
An example of your flawed knowledge. Research on the history of the Idlewood ballas and their records with the administration, but that is a story for another time.
Your arguments are full of presumptions far detached from reality. Before trying to propose reform, do research on how things actually work. Not only will you look more sensible, but you'll also avoid presenting content that becomes a laughingstock.
Regarding that, you failed to see the point I was trying to make, which Gandalf and everybody else properly did.
I did not support any elitism or idlewood ballas, I just refrained from naming anyone from the current player base to prevent any confusion related to my words, I did not wish to differentiate anyone on basis of how many years they have given to the community, or how many rules they have broken.
Would you rather have me explain like this?
Example :
Lets imply, Kassis is a veteran player, and never broke a rule, so he should be given a chance.
Whereas, JDC is a veteran, but he often rulebreaks, so pretty obvious he can't be in the guest admin scenario.
Now if Kassis and you were reading this post, wouldn't that put Kassis on the high clouds but offended you at the same time? That's why I said what I said before. Their names were used just as examples and not to be taken seriously.
Anyhow, end this point as I already had the answer by Gandalf. You just continue to quote and provoke other to promote a verbal war so you can gain some extra posts..
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.. and what exactly does any amount of punishment has to do with a person's opinion?
Just the same as what the result would be if Woka came here now and posted that DDoS'ing a server is bad and that no one should do it.
Regarding that, you failed to see the point I was trying to make, which Gandalf and everybody else properly did.
I did not support any elitism or idlewood ballas, I just refrained from naming anyone from the current player base to prevent any confusion related to my words, I did not wish to differentiate anyone on basis of how many years they have given to the community, or how many rules they have broken.
Would you rather have me explain like this?
Example :
Lets imply, Kassis is a veteran player, and never broke a rule, so he should be given a chance.
Whereas, JDC is a veteran, but he often rulebreaks, so pretty obvious he can't be in the guest admin scenario.
Now if Kassis and you were reading this post, wouldn't that put Kassis on the high clouds but offended you at the same time? That's why I said what I said before. Their names were used just as examples and not to be taken seriously.
Anyhow, end this point as I already had the answer by Gandalf. You just continue to quote and provoke other to promote a verbal war so you can gain some extra posts..
Not wish to differentiate? But that's exactly what you did.
(ofcourse, you must be qualified enough, like a veteran on the server
One or two + year old veterans might actually be smart enough to set into the moderator roles quite quick, no?
I'm not talking of giving everyone a chance to become an admin, but only elite people.
Your ideas were also shot down by "Gandalf and everyone else". It's up to you to continue valuing form over substance, and to fool yourself that someone is out for a verbal war simply because they have no intentions of coddling you or changing anyone's diapers.
And for the record, I've had my full share of extra posts long ago.
Anyway, the proper solution was already given plenty of times in this topic, as it was in many earlier topics of this genre. There is no more use for it, and the topic creator himself has admitted to it being a Players vs. Admins topic.
To reiterate: Report admins to their respective complaint emails and / or superiors. Posting topics and trying to negotiate the operations of the admin team will not help, and will only contribute to the problem instead of the solution.
Locked.