We need to talk

[Liam Jake]

I feel like this needs to be addressed and solved as it'll impact Argonath's future. First of all, PLEASE do not misinterpret the things am about to say. I'm not pointing fingers at anyone. Share your opinions respectfully and keep it civil.

I'm pretty sure am not the only one who feels this way but here we go. An administrator bans a player for breaking a rule and that particular incident didn't warrant a ban or the admin was at fault. Now here comes the ultimate self-defense that admins use all the time! Start digging in the player's past so they can justify the ban! this is wrong..and there is no way the admin will be held accountable at this point because all they have to do is just to start digging in your past for all the things you have done in the server, use it against the player, and ignore the fact that the player was banned for a completely different reason.

This has happened many times and many players just roll with it just so they can play on the server, I mean it's your server you can handle things how you guys like but the current unban system is pretty much a fraud. There is no way a player can disagree with their ban at this point(even if they're innocent) and I hope the management starts handling things differently and not be biased against the players. Let the admin and the player give their view on the case and the management should come with a verdict that's only fair for both sides instead of keeping it all one-sided. We can't even report admins because they never break any rules, of course!

Do admins get punished or face any consequences?

[Gregersen]

Do admins get punished or face any consequences?

Speaking for myself, and my previous history with being an administrator at ArgonathRPG - yes, administrators do get punished.
I was removed many many years ago from SA:MP staff for being too harsh (abusive you might call it).

Are you refering to your own ban, or any particular ban?
It's not THAT simple to judge any ban, from the outside view (meaning if you are not the banned player and/or judging staff)

Let me start of with that.

[Kessu]

First off, if an admin in your opinion has wronged you, you do not cause a fuss. You report him to the server's HQ. If you think it's the HQ who wronged you, you report to the CLs.

Now that we've got this out of the way - the ban reason is ultimately irrelevant - it's usually just for logging purposes. The player who is banned will be ultimately told in the unban request what it is they've done wrong exactly and why they are banned should they question it.

The player then can contest these claims or admit that they have done wrong. Should they contest the rulebreaks and be found guilty of them, your scenario will be worse off. Should they blame the administration, HQ or leaders for their ban, they will be even worse off. Should they break more rules in order to get unbanned, it's very unlikely to get unbanned any time soon.


As for your question regarding "do admins get punished?" Absolutely. If an admin breaks rules and I see it they're in deep shit. In VC:MP Klaus and myself permaban the admin pending full investigation and then decide whether the rulebreak is worth a demotion, a ban or a very stern talking to etc. Other servers are not forced to the same level of strictness, but I will personally not tolerate any server letting admins off the hook for breaking the rules.

Admins are generally held to a much higher standard than a player is when considering the rules and obeying by them and I'm sure Haldir and Brian both agree with me on this.


More often than not, when a player ends up in an unban request section and the ban was not done to them accidentaly (wrong ID etc), they belong there. Sometimes an admin over-reacts and HQ solves these kinds of issues fast.

When a player however is denied their unban request over certain reasons, it is highly adviced not to double down on said reasons. At that point you are in the wrong. Always.

[Nathan]

I was taught that a ban should be the last step in the line of escalation when handling rule breaking. For example, if a player is being abusive - they might get a warning, they might even get a kick, but if they don't wise up, they will be forcibly removed through a ban.

Once the player has been banned, often the context of the ban will be brought up and that's where past actions speak for themselves. If a player has a consistent history of being abusive and do not change behavior, I feel the administration has full rights to bring up the past behavior. If you're referring issues from several years ago though, that might be a different issue.

Do admins get punished or face any consequences?

Yes. I personally have as many others have in the past.

[Kessu]

I was taught that a ban should be the last step in the line of escalation when handling rule breaking.

That is true, admins do not and should not want to ban players. But if a player is problematic enough, they should be dealt with.

[Legolas]

 Liam Jake you are NOT a part of admin stuff...and you will not tell admins who to ban, how, what punishment is proper. We give to many chances, and we spend too much time on conversations like this about toxic people that brings NOTHING positive to the server. Veterans that still break basic rules will receive harder punishment...they should know the rules, follow them and support the server. This is NOT a prison you are free to go if you don't like our work and judgment. But as i said before....admin related stuff will be discussed ONLY in admin team, not with Argo members. We don't have to speak with YOU about server administration

[jNewtonik]

Spoiler for Hiden:

Liam Jake you are NOT a part of admin stuff...and you will not tell admins who to ban, how, what punishment is proper. We give to many chances, and we spend too much time on conversations like this about toxic people that brings NOTHING positive to the server. Veterans that still break basic rules will receive harder punishment...they should know the rules, follow them and support the server. This is NOT a prison you are free to go if you don't like our work and judgment. But as i said before....admin related stuff will be discussed ONLY in admin team, not with Argo members. We don't have to speak with YOU about server administration

I see you love using the sentence ''you are free to go'' to often.

[Kowalski.]

Spoiler for Hiden:

Liam Jake you are NOT a part of admin stuff...and you will not tell admins who to ban, how, what punishment is proper. We give to many chances, and we spend too much time on conversations like this about toxic people that brings NOTHING positive to the server. Veterans that still break basic rules will receive harder punishment...they should know the rules, follow them and support the server. This is NOT a prison you are free to go if you don't like our work and judgment. But as i said before....admin related stuff will be discussed ONLY in admin team, not with Argo members. We don't have to speak with YOU about server administration

I see you love using the sentence ''you are free to go'' to often.

Not gonna lie - this is very true.

Agent, stop trying to show people the door just for raising a point. The last thing Argonath needs is players leaving, all things considered. This is the wrong attitude to have.

"We don't have to speak with YOU about server administration"

Transparency and communication between players and administration is necessary for a healthy community. There is nothing toxic in this topic, to which even a CL has responded, mentioning the correct procedure, but addressing the question.

He hasn't started showing Liam the door just because the guy asked a question. That's a bad practice and a bad example, and as an admin, you should know better, considering even a fellow staff member (Gregersen) responded to this topic, without telling the guy to piss off.


Now to actually address the main point here...

Liam, a player's past is a reference in the context of a ban. If a player has a history of consistently breaking the rules or disrupting the server atmosphere, it will absolutely be considered in an unban appeal.

Learning from our mistakes is one thing, trying to sweep the past under the rug is another.

I can see where you may be coming from - how you feel an appeal isn't objectively handled because the past is then used by the admin while completely disregarding the actual ban reason and whether it was justified.

That is a fair concern, but while a past may be addressed as part of the appeals procedure, if the ban itself is wrong, then it's wrong, and it'll be lifted.

If your ban reason is valid and your past indicates a history of such behavior on the server, it absolutely will be used against you, as it should. Why should you get another chance if you've been given them and still end up banned? That is where you need to convince the HQ that you're worth unbanning.


To answer your other question, do admins ever get punished or face any consequences? Yes.

Admins absolutely can be held accountable. There's a basic phase structure, simple hierarchy.

Phase 1.) You report to the Server HQ. Preferably a written report via forums with evidence attached, and they'll review your case.

Most cases should be resolved at this point.

Phase 2.) If you are unhappy with the Server HQ's verdict and wish to have it appealed again, you report to the Community Leaders. They will conduct an independent review, obtaining your side and the HQ's.

They'll then motion to accept the appeal or deny it.

At this point, if it's denied, you really should just drop it.

Phase 3.) If for whatever reason you're still unhappy with the Community Leaders' review and still believe you've done nothing wrong, the official answer is to forward a report to the owners.

The realistic answer is to just let it go, the owners are MIA and it's useless even bothering

The unban system isn't a fraud, as you've put it. The system works as it should. A player can contest their ban if they believe it's wrong. The HQ aren't biased, and if you feel they are, then report them to Community Leaders. The cases aren't given a one-sided review, everything is considered.

All in all - you might just need to concede that you were wrong and admit it. There's no shame in it.

[Legolas]

Isnt  same Kowalski that created copy of Argonath ? The guy that was banned in SAMP? Wasn't you that search over Discord PMs players for oposite server last year? Yet you tell me what i should or not? Is that joke? Yes we will show the doors for rulebreakers and toxic people. You have transparency on development, but admin related stuff will remain ONLY within admin team

[Thom]

Liam Jake you are NOT a part of admin stuff...and you will not tell admins who to ban, how, what punishment is proper. We give to many chances, and we spend too much time on conversations like this about toxic people that brings NOTHING positive to the server. Veterans that still break basic rules will receive harder punishment...they should know the rules, follow them and support the server. This is NOT a prison you are free to go if you don't like our work and judgment. But as i said before....admin related stuff will be discussed ONLY in admin team, not with Argo members. We don't have to speak with YOU about server administration

The main point is how admins will go and dig past to justify their wrong ban. When witch-hunted upon, you'll find that many or all players have done something wrong cause no one is perfect and that is natural.

Tryharding to find a reason so that you can justify your wrong judgement is wrong.

I'm sorry that Agent finds nothing positive in trying to heal toxic players through time consuming methods. He who feels threatened by discussion and sees someone that brings up a problem as a commanding the admin staff to who to ban and how to ban is sad and probably this gap is what brought us to this situation. This attidute that is like, just because I don't have you with a leash I don't have to care about problems YOU bring up cause we have problems WE bring up and discuss, so we're good.

Server Administration is dependable to the players and has to deal with the players and if you believe that being in the shoes of an admin 24/7 you can see all problems you're naive. When you're the one end, of a two-end interaction, you can't experience a scenario at the shoes of a player even as a UC.

In short, we don't have you on a leash, thus we don't have to question our work and judgement cause THAT is healthy.

[Kessu]

I have not seen a single case of witch hunt in recent times.

If you think you have, report it to me and stop making a fuss about it on the forums like I said in my first post.

If this topic turns in to "it's happening but I won't say where and when" then I'll lock the topic because that's not a discussion.

[Semirak]

Well in the little time where i have played ivmp, i can tell for sure that the ban system worked perfectly. Banned people deserved it.
I dont know about samp, but banned people in ivmp have received many unbans. Do really someone need more than one time a unban?
Mistakes happens , someone can be banned per error (even though I've never seen it, i have always readed the unban section)and he will receive
one more chance. What about the people that are playing more than 10 years and never get a ban? they are special? NO, they just follow the rules.
Liam, I didnt see an Admin banning without proofs, they do always have some videos or pictures or logs.And if they dont have , they will just go undercover
and catch you. Remember BANS are not done to make people leave, administration is like police, their job is to protect us in order to have a good
experience with roleplay.

I remember one day, i was bored and i started to drive a bus backwards on the streets. Paprika freezed me and told me : " wth are you doing?"
i said that i  was bored. He just told me that if i was bored i should play another game, instead of copbaiting and ruining others roleplay.

[Mac Taylor]

Hello Liam,

Some of the above have already addressed some good points. Speaking of V:MP since this post is within V:MP boards, we do not have wrongly done bans, unjustified bans, nor witch hunted bans. All bans are reasonable, all ban reasons were cleared out to the banned player(s), and I assure you that the ban hammer is the last thing that we wish as administration team to take against a player.

What frustrates me as well as other people in the administration team or management is that players for example like yourself judged from the outside picture, without being involved in a ban case, nor talking to even a single HQ member. Anyway, the correct procedure was mentioned already above, let me re-mention it to you,  and everyone else who's interested in V:MP community and in the new server, as we are not really interested in having  a lot more of such topics without going through the correct procedure.

If you have any problem with a moderator or an administrator, feel free to contact a Manager or a division leader.

If you have a problem with a manager, feel free to contact the division leader.

if you have a problem with the division leader, feel free to contact a community leader.

If you have a problem with a community leader, contact ANOTHER community leader.


This is not the past, now we have four community leaders, three are active on daily basis, and I do assure to you that they communicate with all of us pretty much on daily basis. If you have a problem with a community leader, don't get frustrated, just head to another community leader and your problem will be solved as soon as possible.


And to answer your question; yes administration team do receive punishments if they break an internal rule or the general server rules. We just don't wish to have this on a public, just the same as we do with the players, we don't reveal their history or anything unless that player's actions ended up into the unban section. Same as players own the right to have their history and privacy hidden from other players, administrators do own the same right.

I just hope you guys really support the administration team, because believe me, they are doing their best for the new upcoming server alongside the developers, and they are being watched as well, not by the HQ only, but by the CLs as well.

[Kessu]

Reminder; toxicity will not be tolerated.

If you can not discuss the topic at hand AND do it in a civil manner, don't post. I do not give a shit what you think about others, you can talk it out with them someplace where it belongs, but this topic ain't it.