Why you shouldn't make a topic reporting other's actions.

[JayL]

Ok so I'm writing this in order to try to covince people that sending a complaint to the email is the best way...

You just need to analyze it deeply. Some of you might think "But the players must discuss it too! They have the right to point out things!". Yes, they really do, they are the beating hart of a server, but everyone posting the same thing in a topic creates a lot of discussion and disorder. That's why the email is there, so everyone can privately send their opinion, then main admins can be aware of it with more patience, more order, etcetera. If you still like to discuss it in group without the email - grab people's MSN - get two guys to help you out, organize a meeting, and then ONE PERSON sends the conclusions on the email! It's simple!
MSN is better because the forums are NOT meant to be the place for the topics, because the main admins decided it, they have right to, they are MEANT to take the decisions in the name of the public.

Everyone can post their opinions, but everyone posting yes or no in a topic without any order isn't going to fix anything. The email is the way for complaints that is decided by the admins because they are MEANT to, that's their ROLE, and until it isn't changed, you are meant to send any complaints about it or even sending a suggestion regarding it to the e-mail.

Follow the e-mail procedure, otherwise admins aren't supposed to listen you, thus, they aren't supposed to do anything.

Thank you for reading.

[Mafs]

The thing is.. we can't discuss ANYTHING without the admins immidiatly interfering, I mean HELLO! we're just people, we DISCUSS things..we talk about it.. And YOU are trying to take that right from us?
Sure you say: 'Go on msn..' Don't we got the forums exactly to discuss these things?

This topic is also directly related to the topic that Romeo made to discuss something. He perfectly build up the texture of his first post and people TALKED about it.. expressed their opinions about it. But no, we can't TALK about anything.. it's immidiatly 'DROP IT RIGHT NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!one11'

You will probably say to this: 'But it will cause flame..' No of course, immidiatly interfering with something like that and just tell them to drop it helps to reduce the flaming. This not only happens on the forums, no also in game.. and I must say, it highly pisses off myself and probably a decent group of other players aswell, think about it.

Good night.

EDIT: And for the record.. you just made a topic yourself about someone else his 'actions' which was Romeo's topic, kind of hypocritical, don't you think? Also, he was not 'reporting' someone's actions, he was speaking in general about all the admins.

[Niall]

The community email is kind of like the ARPD complaint system in that it is flawed. It is flawed in my opinion because it doesn't give the person a chance to answer and respond to allegations and vice versa

Oppose censorship. : )

[JayL]

If we have the e-mail to point out such actions from admins, why would the forums be for that too?

Yes, of course we discuss things, but topics who will discuss the acts of admins will be locked, because there's the e-mail for complaints, yet you seem to refuse to do it. You must let main admins deal with it, or atleast take part in the decisions, Argonath-wide...

You really want to discuss, make out big plans? Right, but seriously don't go 'this admin kicked me'... You must talk to who have powers to change the things... The main admins, why doesn't one of you guys go and talk to a leader 'Yo, we want to discuss this and this, we want to point this out, can we get a topic in the forums for that?' or 'Can we talk to you in MSN?', you just go posting 'let's discuss', without even warning the main admins about it. Talk to the leaders, send an e-mail explaining your plans (or other forms of contact), organize, then discuss. Do the things the way they are meant to.

I wonder if anyone has ever thought about that.


@Niall:
Wait, is the logic 'Oppose censorship = oppose the rules'? Because rules act as censorships (e.g. the flaming rule... It doesn't allow you to flame others).

[Mafs]

''Right, but seriously don't go 'this admins kicked me'... ''
First off all.. Romeo's topic was not based on just a 'kick' he was was basing the topic on his own personal experience but yet we get refused to talk about it in public.

''You must let the main admins deal with it, or atleast take part in the decisions, Argonath-wide...''
Again, the topics are accessible to ALL Argonath players, which means ALL people playing Argonath can TAKE PART in the DECISIONS, yes.. Argonath-wide. Main admins also have acces to the forums don't they? Also when you say: 'Go to msn to discuss things' do you think that will reduce the flaming or other concerns? I do not think so, atleast on the forums the moderators are able to control it. Discussions on msn can't be stopped by a moderator which gives both parties unlimited acces to flaming as they can flame throughout the whole conversation. Which later brings these thoughts onto the server and forum.
So no 'Discuss on msn!' doesn't help a bit if you ask me.

However, I do agree on the bit of us asking the main admins first if we can make a discussion topic. But I'm afraid this might cause alot of spam in their inbox.. I would like to hear their opinion about this.

[Oliver]

i totally agree with mafs: forums were made for discussion not forum games etc.

[Niall]

@Niall:
Wait, is the logic 'Oppose censorship = oppose the rules'?

Absolutely not.

Censorship - The use of state or group power to control freedom of expression.

Obviously rules have to be followed. And I think you know it doesn't mean that as it would be absurd to suggest such a thing.

[Gandalf]

Absolutely not.

Censorship - The use of state or group power to control freedom of expression.

Obviously rules have to be followed. And I think you know it doesn't mean that as it would be absurd to suggest such a thing.

JayL is correct if he speaks about making topics regarding actions of admins.
The server owners and main admins set out guidelines and rules for admins to follow. If they do not follow the rules, people have the right to complain at the e-mail and if there are valid complaints admins can be demoted or lose their rights all together.

If players feel that the rules admins follow are not fair, they are free to discuss it. This discussion should be without flaming, and main admins and the server owners can explain why certain rules are in place. If someone has a valid point, rules might be changed.

What we do not allow is people making their own set of rules, expecting other to follow them, flaming those who do not and then shout about censorship.

Freedom of expression is the freedom to tell your opinion. It is not the freedom to force it on others, or to offend others. Censorship is something that is needed at time to prevent people from hurting each others feelings.
If we set a rule of no flaming, it is censorship. But if we did not set that rule, people would offend each other constantly.

[Oliver]

what about IC flaming? For example, cops surround me, i call martu(the guy who is arresting me) a prick, the flame is understandable. Suddenly an admin barges in, breaking rp and kicks me for flaming. What should i call my arrester then, a teddy?
Also, i want to know whether or not i can call my friends 'niggas' in a private cb channel/ICly  since tehnically it isnt racist.
Whoa, kinda got off topic there :/

Well, it has something to do with censorship

[JayL]

Two choices - either you discuss it in MSN, the way you want, and contact the main administrators with conclusion. Or, if you want to do it in forums, discussing with everyone - seek for the possible ways to do it with the main admins... And there won't be any 'inbox flooding' problems if the group selects ONE guy to contact the main admins and represent their plans, etc.

[Pandalink]

i call martu(the guy who is arresting me) a prick, the flame is understandable. Suddenly an admin barges in, breaking rp and kicks me for flaming.

IC flaming doesn't count, since IC doesn't exist on this server (and hopefully never will, imagine the personal insults).

[Niall]

If players feel that the rules admins follow are not fair, they are free to discuss it. This discussion should be without flaming, and main admins and the server owners can explain why certain rules are in place. If someone has a valid point, rules might be changed.

I don't recall any flaming in Romeo's topic, correct me if i'm wrong, i'm not to sure as it was locked and or moved. I totally agree that it should be without flaming. And also, about the email system, i'm not saying it doesn't work, i'm saying it is flawed.

What we do not allow is people making their own set of rules, expecting other to follow them, flaming those who do not and then shout about censorship.

If you're referring to my demotion as an admin where I was demoted for 'trying to enforce metagaming' I still refuse to acknowledge the fact that I did that. I didn't try to enforce anything, I complained vocally that it is bullcrap to suspect someone when they do not see the actual crime, a principle I still stand by. I am however shouting about censorship, because there is a plethora of it in Argonath, you only have to be ingame or browse the forum for a short while to see it. Some censorship is needed, like banana-ing to stop flaming, blocking pornographic and torrent links,  others forms of censorship shouldn't be in place though, it just creates an aura of dictatorship or something.

Freedom of expression is the freedom to tell your opinion. It is not the freedom to force it on others, or to offend others. Censorship is something that is needed at time to prevent people from hurting each others feelings.
If we set a rule of no flaming, it is censorship. But if we did not set that rule, people would offend each other constantly.

If the above three lines are directed at me then it's a waste of time, I already agree with them points. The only thing I have to point out my opinion of is that censorship is not always in place to stop hurting other peoples feelings, it is for other motives as well. e.g. it has been used in history to stop certain factions from gaining a support base.