Censorship

[Frank_Hawk]

Hi - I would like some clarification. Earlier today, I was discussing project methodologies in /p and was asked to cease the discussion as it can be seen as 'insulting' to developers. I want to bring this to the attention of the wider audience especially the leadership as to why we are not allowed to discuss real life facts around project methodologies.

While Argonath uses the term developer to be involved across the project lifecycle - the term developer in real life is very different. We should not in my opinion be restricted / censored from steering the younger audience who may be aspiring technology professionals in the wrong direction. We are failing in our responsiblity to promote truthful education.

Could we please have some clarity on this?

[CBFasi]

The way you was bringing it into discussion in public chat seemed to be inferring that the Argonath Developers were not good standard, that they didn't know what they was doing as they was not using the business model you was discussing ..

[Gandalf]

Your use of the word 'developer' in the real world is rather limited.
While software developers may not be always the people who are decision making about the products they develop, there are many other kind of developers who would take offense at you mentioneing they have no poer in the real world.
For instance a business developer is the person who makes the general decisions about business strategy. This is also how the word developer was introduced in Argonath, as in the people who develop the community. That is not related to the scripts, but to the strategic direction of the community as a whole.

As during the years the structure has changed by adding a number of people, the word 'developers' has been use mostly for the top scripters. That means those who are in command of taking the decisions on how feasible the proposed script ideas are, and layout the requirements for the actual scripters.

This meansthat the word developers in Argonath matches the software term pretty well, except that many of our current developers also have a leadership role attached to them.

Next time you bring something up, please do not try to limit the context to favour your limited knowledge and opinion.

[Frank_Hawk]

The way you was bringing it into discussion in public chat seemed to be inferring that the Argonath Developers were not good standard, that they didn't know what they was doing as they was not using the business model you was discussing ..

Further than the truth - in fact, the discussion related to project methodologies and the developer's role in that. There was no derogatory comments made about Argonath developers. In fact, Argonath developers should be respected beyond doubt. Being engaged at all levels of the project lifecycle is very difficult and can be overwhelming. The mere fact that they are able to execute the role, with RS5 being a prime example is a testament to their hard work. That said, we should not be discouraging / promoting censorship against real world scenarios. A large portion of this community are aspiring technology professionals and they should be made aware of the 'real life' role of a developer as opposed to the role in Argonath. I normally do not voice my opinion much anymore, but this is outrageous and nothing short than censorship.

[Kirgiz]

Your use of the word 'developer' in the real world is rather limited.
While software developers may not be always the people who are decision making about the products they develop, there are many other kind of developers who would take offense at you mentioneing they have no poer in the real world.
For instance a business developer is the person who makes the general decisions about business strategy. This is also how the word developer was introduced in Argonath, as in the people who develop the community. That is not related to the scripts, but to the strategic direction of the community as a whole.

As during the years the structure has changed by adding a number of people, the word 'developers' has been use mostly for the top scripters. That means those who are in command of taking the decisions on how feasible the proposed script ideas are, and layout the requirements for the actual scripters.

This meansthat the word developers in Argonath matches the software term pretty well, except that many of our current developers also have a leadership role attached to them.

Next time you bring something up, please do not try to limit the context to favour your limited knowledge and opinion.

"people are stupid nowadays"

*banned for flaming*

The fact that you generalize it upon yourselves just shows your insecurity on the current topic, I really don't try to provoke, but don't you feel that you are the ones who limit the context to favour your limited knowledge and opinion, and, in addition, your reputation?

[Gandalf]

"people are stupid nowadays"

*banned for flaming*

The fact that you generalize it upon yourselves just shows your insecurity on the current topic, I really don't try to provoke, but don't you feel that you are the ones who limit the context to favour your limited knowledge and opinion, and, in addition, your reputation?

I guess you give examples from the servers that you frequent.
There for this can be ignored.

[Ben.]

I'd actually like to apologise for any role I played in winding up the situation by debating the various Project Life-cycles used in "the real world" - didn't realise that I was adding to comments which may or may not have been aimed at the Argonath Development team.

If it is of any help, I did not believe the comments Frank made about "developers" were meant to be derogatory towards Argonath. On the contrary, I believe he was indirectly complimenting them by comparing them to projects in RL which fail due to a lack of Dev and Test involvement early on in the project life-cycle.
However, it doesn't forgive that I was tactless in continuing the discussion, sparking more heat in an already heated environment.

I'd like to point out I was not challenged IG for my actions - in spite of this, I still feel somewhat guilty.

--Ben

[Kirgiz]

I guess you give examples from the servers that you frequent.
There for this can be ignored.

I took the example straight off your post. If you really feel you cannot answer my question, you are free to add myself to your Ignore list, however do not try to provoke me with your petty insults, it doesn't show you any smarter.

[Gandalf]

Do you try to get banned here?

[Lustigkurre]

What would the reason be for that ban?

[Gandalf]

What would the reason be for that ban?

Being as flaming that can only spread bnegativity.

[Lionel Valdes]

lol...

[Ben.]

Also like to point out that Gandalf is one of the big cheeses in Argonath, and can ban people for pretty much whatever he wants!

[Frank_Hawk]

Your use of the word 'developer' in the real world is rather limited.
While software developers may not be always the people who are decision making about the products they develop, there are many other kind of developers who would take offense at you mentioneing they have no poer in the real world.
For instance a business developer is the person who makes the general decisions about business strategy. This is also how the word developer was introduced in Argonath, as in the people who develop the community. That is not related to the scripts, but to the strategic direction of the community as a whole.

As during the years the structure has changed by adding a number of people, the word 'developers' has been use mostly for the top scripters. That means those who are in command of taking the decisions on how feasible the proposed script ideas are, and layout the requirements for the actual scripters.

This meansthat the word developers in Argonath matches the software term pretty well, except that many of our current developers also have a leadership role attached to them.

Next time you bring something up, please do not try to limit the context to favour your limited knowledge and opinion.

Its clear that my point has been missed or perhaps just ignored it. The 'business developer' you refer to is called a 'business analyst' who can be responsible for defining business strategies alongside senior stakeholders. The term business developer is not a term which I've seen promoted as part of any major project methodology so since we're on the topic of educating eachother -  how about you assist me in validating your point through a established source.

In the wider context of the subject, we might want to consider relabelling the roles of staff in Argonath to more suitably aligned designations since it might assist those younger to follow it up as a career option. By giving them relevant and accurate information, we are doing our bit. Instead right now I feel that we are failing in our obligation uphold this value.

More importantly, I would like to seek clarity on why we are unable to talk about this subject widely in /p. If it offends developers to talk about real life project methodologies, then I might claim to be offended by the subject of dogs. In that case, will you uphold my right to prevent a discussion about dogs in /p?

[Gandalf]

Also like to point out that Gandalf is one of the big cheeses in Argonath, and can ban people for pretty much whatever he wants!

On the other hand, I can not put anyone on my ignore list no matter if I would want to or not.
Back to the topic of censorship.

Even if it was meant well, which I always presume it is, the administration in game has the right to request you to cease a discussion if they deem it detrimental to the ongoing atmosphere on server. To claim censorship because you were requested to drop a topic can be seen as an attack on the authority of the administration team to regulate and monitor the chat in order to keep a positive atmosphere for all people, yourself included.
Such attacks are frowned upon by HQ, and under previous circumstances during my inactivity I am pretty sure the topic would have been locked or removed, and may have lead to a warning of those in support.
As you may know I have a very open stance with regard to critcism, and prefer to counter by arguments instead of actions.
However if it is clear that certain poster are attempting to create negativity, they will be dealt with. Everyone is welcome to add their thoughts and critisize, however they should do this in a civil and if possible positive and constructive attitude.

Ben is an example of a positive attitude, others are less.