Clear rules for everyone

[Stivi]

Yes

So it's safe to assume that you were getting ready for a shootout. @Younes There you have it. Justified. What else do you need? You've ignored my other posts.

I've been playing for less then a year here,but I'm mature enough to not create a topic after every punishment I get , just to create a shitstorm.

Thing about going public is not to shame the admin or cry about it. But this way Younes can see both sides knew what was coming and the punishments were invalid. Apart from that, this just shows the flaws the current administrative has, and could be used to improve things. Don't see any shitstorm here. Keep off-topic outside, thank you.

I haven't rushed anything, I still stick to my decision. You guys failed to roleplay, and you guys got punished for it. You aren't in a Cops n Robbers servers where you can simply shoot someone "because you're suspected". You're supposed to roleplay and that situation clearly was going to be roleplayed but you chose to take a shortcut out.

Oh wow, and to think I thought you realised your mistake. Now you're just contradicting yourself and not replying to arguments.

I'm not saying you guys refused to roelplay

Make up your mind.

[Younes]

So it's safe to assume that you were getting ready for a shootout. @Younes There you have it. Justified. What else do you need? You've ignored my other posts.

You don't find excuses after you DM and say "see, they were doing this and doing that". Cops equiping weapons doesn't mean they're going to kill you instantly. Criminals taking weapons from cases doesn't mean they're going to shoot instantly.

Thing about going public is not to shame the admin or cry about it. But this way Younes can see both sides knew what was coming and the punishments were invalid. Apart from that, this just shows the flaws the current administrative has, and could be used to improve things. Don't see any shitstorm here. Keep off-topic outside, thank you.

I don't consider this as anything besides a conversation topic and I hope it stays like this so let's actually keep it civil and respectful.

Oh wow, and to think I thought you realised your mistake. Now you're just contradicting yourself and not replying to arguments.
Make up your mind.

What mistake are you talking about? You're just trying to find excuses from all around the community and it's ex-leaders so you can justify your actions.

To clarify points here, you went outside and killed at least three cops who were infront the FBI rancher, some started running away and then they shot back. This doesn't mean that both parties participated in the shootout, this doesn't justify your action to shoot on sight every cop outside. I don't see anything that allows you to shoot cops on sight without interacting with them, and if being a /suspect is a reason for you then you shouldn't expect people to be punished for killing suspects on sight at weedfields or any other area. Rules are rules and they apply everywhere, you shouldn't just look at your side and see other situations similar to yours. No one was ever allowed to shoot on sight just because he has been a suspect. Cops were never allowed to shoot criminals at any situation (i.e weedfield) just because they're suspects and at the weedfield, and the same goes for criminals against approaching cops. They need to at least have a valid interaction before withdrawing guns and using them.

Your situation here is unjustified and your reasons aren't supporting it. You said it yourself, cops refused to roleplay so literally no roleplay was done. Why did you choose to kill the cops outside instead of waiting for another roleplay chance at least go outside and interact before shooting?

We've ended up in an endless spiral, only blaming eachother without laying the focus on roleplay, from both sides. The only way we can break through this if the leaders of both law enforcement and criminal groups make agreements and enforce their members approperiately. A new start, so to speak. But that only works if everyone is on board.

Afterall we aren't getting anywhere with this topic. If you want this to be handled, you can take it to HQ (which I'm sure you already did), and I do accept any outcome and I do accept their decision and their opinion, like I'am accepting yours.

[Stivi]

I don't consider this as anything besides a conversation topic and I hope it stays like this so let's actually keep it civil and respectful.

Agreed. Let's keep it at that.

You don't find excuses after you DM and say "see, they were doing this and doing that". Cops equiping weapons doesn't mean they're going to kill you instantly. Criminals taking weapons from cases doesn't mean they're going to shoot instantly.

No it does absolutely not mean that, but there is a reason why they were getting armed, is there? Because I was aiming a gun at a federal agent. It's not really that hard.

What mistake are you talking about? You're just trying to find excuses from all around the community and it's ex-leaders so you can justify your actions.

The quotes are to show you that things were working like these before you and I started playing in the server. You can't tell me what happened was against the rules, you can however tell both sides that we should better RP next time. This is "argo RP" at its finest. But inside that casino, I was RPing with others as well, what makes you think I don't wanna RP with the cops too? Heck, I wasn't even suspected I could've walked.

To clarify points here, you went outside and killed at least three cops who were infront the FBI rancher, some started running away and then they shot back. This doesn't mean that both parties participated in the shootout, this doesn't justify your action to shoot on sight every cop outside. I don't see anything that allows you to shoot cops on sight without interacting with them, and if being a /suspect is a reason for you then you shouldn't expect people to be punished for killing suspects on sight at weedfields or any other area. Rules are rules and they apply everywhere, you shouldn't just look at your side and see other situations similar to yours. No one was ever allowed to shoot on sight just because he has been a suspect. Cops were never allowed to shoot criminals at any situation (i.e weedfield) just because they're suspects and at the weedfield, and the same goes for criminals against approaching cops. They need to at least have a valid interaction before withdrawing guns and using them.

It's funny because the cops outside don't have a problem with it, yet you do. And that's just behind my understanding.

Both parties did participate in the shootout. The criminals started it first, sure, but both parties participated. And if you shoot back, it's no longer DM. Do I have to quote Gandalf on that, or is he an ex-leader as well?

I am however telling you that the cops ENGAGED on us, and that is a reason TO SHOOT AT THEM. That is accepted in this community as far as the rules go, therefore the shootout was justified. Unless you have something to say, like that isn't true or barricading doesn't count as engaging?

Cops can shoot at suspects, what? You're making this things up now. I've been sniped at weed fields multiple times without being a suspect what are you on about?

Your situation here is unjustified and your reasons aren't supporting it. You said it yourself, cops refused to roleplay so literally no roleplay was done. Why did you choose to kill the cops outside instead of waiting for another roleplay chance at least go outside and interact before shooting?

Not sure how many times this has happened to you, but here in Albania police issues are very common. People run from the cops without interacting. Shooting cops isn't that common but this is GTA, ain't it? You don't tell a cop that you killed two cops and that you are going to run. Fuck man, that's not hard to understand?

Tell me what would you have done, and what would be accepted within your rules ( because the server rules are clear ), so that we wouldn't have gotten punished?

[Younes]

Server rules clearly say you aren't allowed to shoot on sight without roleplay, whether you're suspected, a cop, or whatever you are considered as unless a roleplay was done before, and in this case nothing was done.

I'm not saying you don't want to roleplay, I'm not saying no one of Gvardias or whoever participated from both sides doesn't want to roleplay and is here in the server just to DM. I'm saying you guys chose the wrong path out and yes that was DM because you failed to interact before shooting, and you can't shoot on sight because you're just /suspect-ed.

I'm not saying Gandalf is wrong, but I'm saying you quoting that in this situation is totally wrong. You guys killed most of cops outside and few of the last ones shot once they found themselves alone. This doens't mean what you done at start is clear and it doesn't mean you did it correct.

Yes I was going to convince you and just talk to you about this situation without issuing any punishment; But just like everyone else gets warned for situations like this one, I can't make an exception otherwise I wouldn't be fair, would I?

[Acika]

I was there, on the roof, spectating the whole situation and i'll give you a verdict on this.

You are perfectly fine to shoot at cops who are engaging you:
a) directly(by chasing/shooting you)
b) indirectly(staying on the edge of minimap(not letting you escape), barricading and locking down the whole building where the suspect(s) is)

The situation was as follows. Few suspects inside 4D and 5 cops outside. Cops placed scripted barriers and were aiming at door.

What does that mean? -> They are not letting suspects escape.
Which means what? -> Suspects are being engaged.
Means what? -> They are free to shoot.

The only way to escape is to gun your way out of the scenery unless you die in the process.

The fact that you were caught off guard, that at the very moment you stopped aiming at the door (cause you were gathering additional weaponary from the Rancher) suspects ran out and started shooting, is my work. I called out for them and told them it's the perfect timing.

Otherwise, if you just kept aiming at the door like you were doing, you'd probably kill them.

Case closed. Punishments should be removed.

Thank you for reading.

[Stivi]

Server rules clearly say you aren't allowed to shoot on sight without roleplay, whether you're suspected, a cop, or whatever you are considered as unless a roleplay was done before, and in this case nothing was done.

Server rules say that?

Deathmatching is defined as attacking another player without a role-play reason and is strictly prohibited.

Did we have a reason? Yes, we did. Was the reason valid? Pretty sure a suspect can shoot a cop that is engaging him, can he not?

According to an HQ member whom I spoke to yesterday: "You can go out and shoot at the cops if you are wanted, but we prefer for people inside to try and RP instead, same for cops."

Now let's be very clear about PREFERING, and DISALLOWING. There's a difference, and that difference you fail to see.

If you are with another member of your current group/family/gang and they are wanted and you are not you may assist them in holding off the law, as long as you were present at that exact moment and not 300 feet away.  The same can apply if you are in a vehicle with someone who is wanted and you are not, you may open fire as you yourself have been attacked there-fore allowed to shoot back.  This only applies if you were in the vehicle at that time.

I may assist them. There. Because I wasn't a suspect, by script, does not mean I wasn't committing any crimes, or aiding, or anything for that matter.

I'm not saying Gandalf is wrong, but I'm saying you quoting that in this situation is totally wrong. You guys killed most of cops outside and few of the last ones shot once they found themselves alone. This doens't mean what you done at start is clear and it doesn't mean you did it correct.

Well Gandalf said that, he didn't  say if you are in this situation or that, he said if you shoot back it's no longer DM. Did anyone in the scene report us for DM?

Yes I was going to convince you and just talk to you about this situation without issuing any punishment; But just like everyone else gets warned for situations like this one, I can't make an exception otherwise I wouldn't be fair, would I?

No problem with the warning, I knew that was coming as everyone else got warned. I went as far as even get ready to be banned about it.

[Younes]

You were reported yes.

[Stivi]

You were reported yes.

Okay answer the rest of the post now, and also this one:

Tell me what would you have done, and what would be accepted within your rules ( because the server rules are clear ), so that we wouldn't have gotten punished?

P.S: Three out of 5 on that place have said it wasn't DM. If my math checks out, that's more than the majority, but there will always be butthurt people.

[Jeremy.]

You don't find excuses after you DM

We're bunch of DMers, have a look:

Spoiler for Hiden:

+18

In that spoiler we've put effort and spent time which, trust me, you couldn't even think of. Now, you show up out of nowhere and claim my group doing pure deathmatching. There is proof of hard work and dedication which you'll never be able to understand. We had a talk twice, both times you were clearly looking for a reason to punish us. Now, let me tell you how things went. You showed with the group outside, you started spectating us even if no one reported anybody so you could see what's going on inside. If you saw the FBI agent avoiding roleplay, YOU could avoid all of this happening by YOU teleporting him back inside the casino and ROLEPLAY as required.

Now, to enlight you. You expect us to roleplay after we murdered police officers, mkay. But you don't expect the FBI agent to comply while he is surrounded by heavily armed mobsters inside the casino? He had a gun pointed upon him, he has been told to STOP several times. If you claim he ignored roleplaying because Djole did knife animation then you just proved how biased are you. Why? Because pressing H whilst doing knife animation sounds as script abusing to avoid being killed, let's not forget the TOTALLY IGNORING ROLEPLAY. YOU could interfere, NOBODY issued a report, you just did your acts by your "seeing" but you never wanted to listen to our side of story even if it was explained, BOTH times. (See first post last spoiler). Your point was totally obvious, to find a reason to punish just because cop side lost.

[Younes]

Just to clarify something for you, Jeremy.
I never said your group are bunch of DMers, I never said you guys have no intention to roleplay and all you are doing is DM, I never said you don't know how to roleplay neither said you don't want to roleplay. I've reacted to a situation I've seen wrong, after complaints I've received, and the outcome of the investigation was this.

Now just because you were punished it doesn't mean you're bunch of DMers. We all do mistakes and we all learn from them. As for you saying this is a mistake, I still am not convinced by your argument (and Stivi's), because I'm pretty sure  you could have used other ways out instead of killing everyone outside.

And yes, I do mistakes as well and I admit when I do them and learn from them, no one is perfect. Now this doesn't mean I'm saying my punishment is a mistake, but just to make you understand I'm not trying to run away from anything I've done.

Okay answer the rest of the post now, and also this one:

P.S: Three out of 5 on that place have said it wasn't DM. If my math checks out, that's more than the majority, but there will always be butthurt people.

You're here for longer than me, you're experienced more than me and seen more situations than I did. You should know how to make your way out.

[Hevar.]

shit Younes joined 2014, now i understand why he doesn't know what im talking about when i told him about SAPD in 2010

[Ben.]

Think we're drifting off-topic a little here, chaps.

[Shultz]

Instead of going out like retards and killing all of them, you guys could simply have called one of them and explain them the consequence of their actions. But you all decided to go out and show your quality Gvardia roleplay.
As for the punishment, consider yourselves lucky as one of the most calm and mature admin was handling your case. If it was KHm or astaroth for example, you guys would simply have ended up in unban section crying for unban.

[Hevar.]

Instead of going out like retards and killing all of them, you guys could simply have called one of them and explain them the consequence of their actions. But you all decided to go out and show your quality Gvardia roleplay.
As for the punishment, consider yourselves lucky as one of the most calm and mature admin was handling your case. If it was KHm or astaroth for example, you guys would simply have ended up in unban section crying for unban.

No provoke please, keep this topic clean!

[Younes]

Let's not turn this into a fighting post please. If you want to give your opinion, give it in a civil way and keep the provocation out of it. No one wants to hear what hate you got against a group. If you got something against them then man up and talk to them like a normal person does.