Clearing up the RS4 situation

[Andeey]

G'day,

Due to all the recent talks on RS4 and the polling that has been done it seems that a few people want RS4 to come back and for us to have RS6 on the side or to not have it at all.

I can see that alot of people just want players back or just some nostalgic feelings of when the server was in it's prime, Active leaders, Active development, 150+ players a night, Major groups active, roleplay everywhere you looked, overlooked TDM and freeroam.

But why is it so hard to enjoy RS5 and now RS6 that has been worked on since 2013, From the failed launch of RS5 to the major success of RS5.2 and now the current process of building what is to be RS6?

I feel like the main reason people voted for RS4 to come back is to regain that feeling of having players everywhere and active, but for that to happen RS6 would need to be ditched and left for dead, RS4 without proper support would be left to rot and the would eventually be destroyed after having no administration, no development and overall no support, Why not just give it support you say?
Well.. For us to support a server that is stuck in 2012 we would need to downgrade our rules, we would need to retrain our staff team, We would need to split our divisions when there is no room to split.

We can't simply split the two divisions or merge the two divisions because they're completely different, How do you think RS4 players would react to RS5 admins being incharge of RS4? not well.. ofcourse.

I guess what i want to ask of the players here is.. Why do you really want RS4 back and why do you so desperately want us to ditch RS6?

If we revert back to RS4 sure we will have an obvious increase in playerbase due to the nostalgia around the gamemode but what will you lose?
Group scripts
Ability to own more than 1 business/house
Ability to own more than 3 vehicles
unique drug scripts
Trucking
street cleaning
Oil working job
A PD system that is more than just "/gu or get killed"
and countless other systems that help people to roleplay or get around the server and have fun.

I guess what i want to ask of the players here is.. Why do you really want RS4 back and why do you so desperately want us to ditch RS6?(I'd rather this than listen to a poll by mostly inactive players who don't bother to post or visit ingame)

[Badandy]

I personally just wanted to see RS4 again just for fun, I wouldn't replace RS6 with RS4. It just seemed like a neat thing to just to remember what was. RS4 is in the past and it should stay there, but playing a little on it wouldn't be bad for at least for a little bit.

[Andeey]

I personally just wanted to see RS4 again just for fun, I wouldn't replace RS6 with RS4. It just seemed like a neat thing to just to remember what was. RS4 is in the past and it should stay there, but playing a little on it wouldn't be bad for at least for a little bit.

We could always run an RS4 server whenever we have a server downtime for Maintenance or updates.

[Badandy]

I personally just wanted to see RS4 again just for fun, I wouldn't replace RS6 with RS4. It just seemed like a neat thing to just to remember what was. RS4 is in the past and it should stay there, but playing a little on it wouldn't be bad for at least for a little bit.

We could always run an RS4 server whenever we have a server downtime for Maintenance or updates.

Is that long enough though? Personally, I don't have a strong opinion on this. I don't see a big issue to allow both servers to run but have a certain restriction on RS4 so it doesn't spiral out of control. When we look back at RS4 though, it's through rose tinted glasses and things seemed better back then. Things were better in a sense because there were people but I don't know how a RS4 server would feel without that kind of playerbase.

[Andeey]

I personally just wanted to see RS4 again just for fun, I wouldn't replace RS6 with RS4. It just seemed like a neat thing to just to remember what was. RS4 is in the past and it should stay there, but playing a little on it wouldn't be bad for at least for a little bit.

We could always run an RS4 server whenever we have a server downtime for Maintenance or updates.

Is that long enough though? Personally, I don't have a strong opinion on this. I don't see a big issue to allow both servers to run but have a certain restriction on RS4 so it doesn't spiral out of control. When we look back at RS4 though, it's through rose tinted glasses and things seemed better back then. Things were better in a sense because there were people but I don't know how a RS4 server would feel without that kind of playerbase.

The reason RS4 won't work now is because its something thats been well and truly in the past for a long time, We've moved on to bigger and better things, RS4 only got the players it had because it was one the best options for freeroam/rp back when SA:MP was in it's prime, It's no secret that SA:MP is slowly but surely dying off as an older game most have moved onto GTA V or other games.

What's the real point to running a Legacy RS4 server?  with no support it's just going to become out of control, Also script wise im sure a developer can back this up but there is almost no room to work with.

[Cutt3r]

Argonath's usp was its simplicity.  I find it complex now, so much so that I haven't tried criminal or cop or mining because what I have is already way too complex. A new player will be lost in the myriad of rules and scripts - he is learning how to use scripts instead of how to rp.

People may have left due to various reasons but if another chilled out, friendly place becomes medium to heavy rp, the purpose of the server is not served. We all have real life for heavy rp 

As another old member of our community said,  we have more instances of players telling us what not to do than what we can - how will old members come back? This is why I feel that going back one step will be a 100 steps forward in the long run.

Nostalgia will not keep a server running for more than a week. But the purpose will.  Slowly (since people need to get used to a simpler life)  but surely.

[Shorty.]

RS5's script are dope with no doubt, RS4's main entertainment is related to how simple RS4 was, RS5's scripts are dope, and tbh i'd like to see RS4 back just for the playerbase we had, and the unique groups.

[TheLegitHabibi]

Sometimes simplicity just works. People who like hardcore RP and complex scripts go to the already better established LSRP and RCRP.
People liked Argonath for the chilled out environment.

Tell me, what really are you going to lose if we try out RS4 for a couple of months? You're going to lose the efforts on RS5 and 6? How are those efforts working out for you with 0 players right now?
Just try it out man. If it works we'll get a server back, whats the big deal with anti-RS4 vibe you guys got?

[Andeey]

The simplicity of RS4 is what drove the Leadership at the time of RS5 to change things up, it ended up dead like we currently are, Simple rules and minor scripting wasn't enough after how many years.. 8?

Things were changed and it sparked interest as intended and people started playing again and with that newer playerbase everything done since then has been to try keep everyone happy and able to enjoy the gamemode, Now that it's down and not working again We're trying to get to the root causes of the issues but how can we do that if not everyone is voicing their opinion?

Hell we even started a SA:MP Feedback thread, I can disclose that the main issues people seemed to have were staff related or rule related with not being clear and/or strict enough with roleplay. Which has resulted in a staff review taking place(still ongoing) and multiple rules being looked at.

Reverting back to simpler times will just be a waste of time we've all been there and done that..

[Younes]

We don't want to revert back, we don't want to ditch RS5 and RS6 to have RS4 back. Why does the leadership fail to understand that players are simply asking for a chance to play on the same gamemode they used to have great times on?
It is clear that the playerbase is daily on 0, and players are not enjoying the main server and that's not our topic anyway because this one is rather about having a chance to revive memories for those who played on RS4 and maybe have fun. This could be a chance, who knows?
I just wonder why does the HQ hesitate and say that it's going to harm when it's already too late, everything is messed up, the server is already dead whether you admit it or not, and it was everyone's fault including the HQ's and for once, take responsibility for it and listen to players on their "last wishes".

Have this as a side server for some time and keep the main one running with updates and all. If the server does not do good, then simply shut it off because we're used to not doing good anyway.

[Teddy]

Also script wise im sure a developer can back this up but there is almost no room to work with.

This is true, coding wise RS4 is one of the worst code bases I have ever worked with. Not to of course discount the devs work, actually to their credit it is impressive they managed anything with the style. For example, in RS5 here's a chunk of code:

Code: [Select]

new tPlayerName[MAX_PLAYER_NAME];

You might not know coding, but it is very easy to see just by looking at this that it is infact a variable for Player's Name.

In RS4, you have this:

Code: [Select]

new String_128[128];
new String_64[64];
new Int_1;
new Int_2;
new Int_3;

These are all defined at the top of each script, and shared throughout the entire runtime. This means when you look at RS4 to try and fix something you have no fucking idea what the values are cause you have no idea what the variables are suppose to be. You have to sit there and look at every. single. fucking. line. and. function. to figure out something as simple as a value being a player's name.

It is without a doubt a shitshow.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naming_convention_(programming)#Readability
http://wiki.c2.com/?GoodVariableNames
https://blog.usejournal.com/naming-your-variables-f9477ba002e9
https://spin.atomicobject.com/2017/11/01/good-variable-names/
https://www.cs.utah.edu/~germain/PPS/Topics/variables.html
and here's one from 2001 http://www.informit.com/articles/article.aspx?p=131025&seqNum=3

The point is it has literally always been common practice to name your variables indicative of their purpose. This is what makes working with RS4 so difficult. This is why I will not work in RS4's code.

Furthermore, RS4 uses flatfiles for database, this is why things were often really slow back then. It is a very outdated, slow, and error-prone method of saving data. RS5's rewrite introduced MySQL database for fast, modern, and far less error-prone method of saving your data. The data is all gone, the flatfiles were lost. This means RS4 has no data, we would have to reconstruct all of it from scratch. The vehicles, the properties, and moreso your accounts. MIND YOU: Due to the variables and their uselessness above, we would be quite delayed in attempting to understand how these files were constructed and configured.

At the amount I am receiving, it is still quite generous how much time I already put into coding here. I get $100/mo from Argonath, and my usual rate as a developer is $64/hr.. yet on weapon crafting alone I've put well over 10. However, I will not suffer to work on RS4's code while undervaluing myself. Not going to happen.

Where was all the feedback on the simplicity of things on Andeey's survey? Or any of our feedback replies. If you want simplicity, we can deliver. Look at the economy system, /cash and a dynamic dialog with only information that impacts you is available. We can certainly simplify the scripts. We just need to hear from you when we asked, many, many, times.

[Astaroth]

@Andeey yay for moving fwd with my ideas you dirty kangaroo. Where's my promotion?

But yeah guys staff needs to change, rules and scripts need updating, we need to get new things going, and things are finally happening...so yay! See y'all in game soon 

Edit: this was totally meant to go on a topic for admins.

[Nathan]

I figured I’d take a moment to share my thoughts.

I’m no longer betting on RS6.

No matter the improvements, new features, or rule changes, the server is effectively dead. Our clients, our users, don’t want to use the product that we created.

We can create as many new features as we want, but if we have no users, what’s the point?

In business, this is known as product market fit. We failed to reach it with these new versions. We failed to capture new and old users with our scripts.

I’ve spent the last couple of months meeting my admin activity (7+ hours/week) and the sad part is that at most, we had 2-3 people login. This isn’t a time zone issue. I tried different times of the day, same result. Therefore, in my eyes, I believe the server is dead.

Like Cutt3r mentioned, part of the issue is that we’re making the server too complex for users to use. There is a huge learning curve required just to figure out what you can do and how you can do certain things. We tried resolving this with a tutorial. It still made our retention rate of players pretty low.

I personally believe another part of the issue is that we shifted focus. What made Argonath great? I think it was because we were different. We weren’t a strict RP server. We weren’t a free roam server either. We were, what I would call, “light RP”. Then, we had some folks push heavy for stricter RP rules and now we have OOC/IC added. Like what the fuck? Where did that come from? We pushed HEAVILY years before to not have those monikers and now we have them.

We lost our way on what made Argonath special. Our current scripts are too hard for new and old players to understand. We introduced rules that should’ve have been introduced. Because of this, we lost the community. We have lost what made us special. We’re now just another RP server.

Yet, I personally believe we still have a great opportunity to work something out. If you’re not blind, have you not noticed how much activity we had on the forums in the last couple of days? People are once again excited about something. They’re throwing in their ideas. They’re thinking about how they would be on the Legacy server.

HQ should take this opportunity and run with it.

[Lazar.]

I figured I’d take a moment to share my thoughts.

I’m no longer betting on RS6.

No matter the improvements, new features, or rule changes, the server is effectively dead. Our clients, our users, don’t want to use the product that we created.

We can create as many new features as we want, but if we have no users, what’s the point?

In business, this is known as product market fit. We failed to reach it with these new versions. We failed to capture new and old users with our scripts.

I’ve spent the last couple of months meeting my admin activity (7+ hours/week) and the sad part is that at most, we had 2-3 people login. This isn’t a time zone issue. I tried different times of the day, same result. Therefore, in my eyes, I believe the server is dead.

Like Cutt3r mentioned, part of the issue is that we’re making the server too complex for users to use. There is a huge learning curve required just to figure out what you can do and how you can do certain things. We tried resolving this with a tutorial. It still made our retention rate of players pretty low.

I personally believe another part of the issue is that we shifted focus. What made Argonath great? I think it was because we were different. We weren’t a strict RP server. We weren’t a free roam server either. We were, what I would call, “light RP”. Then, we had some folks push heavy for stricter RP rules and now we have OOC/IC added. Like what the fuck? Where did that come from? We pushed HEAVILY years before to not have those monikers and now we have them.

We lost our way on what made Argonath special. Our current scripts are too hard for new and old players to understand. We introduced rules that should’ve have been introduced. Because of this, we lost the community. We have lost what made us special. We’re now just another RP server.

Yet, I personally believe we still have a great opportunity to work something out. If you’re not blind, have you not noticed how much activity we had on the forums in the last couple of days? People are once again excited about something. They’re throwing in their ideas. They’re thinking about how they would be on the Legacy server.

HQ should take this opportunity and run with it.

Nathan your thoughts are very very very brilliant , i support you till the end, but if we make it, i dont think there will be an end with rs4.

[Thomas_A]

If someones shouting anything loud enough and HQ sees a couple of people falling for it, they are gonna bend for it now asap? C'mon...
Desperation must be real.