Learnings from SAMP

[Cutt3r]

Hi,
This is going to be a long post.

Since I have been back, I have tried to spend as much time on the server with two purposes - to find out what went wrong and to try and bring some activity on server.

In order to find our what went wrong, I tried engaging with multiple players who logged in, tried scripts to see how/what was broken and tried setting up a small rp event. The following are my observations. These may not be new for you but it will help to list it down for the overall topic.

Why did Argo SAMP fail?

Based on my discussions with players, Argo SAMP failed due to poor leadership. But I was keen to know what aspect of poor leadership caused it. Someone had a view that it was because of autocratic leadership. Another felt that the regular property resets drove some people away. These are like symptoms of a certain illness but the root cause was not known to me until it became clear that communication was what broke down.

Why were some decisions taken the way they were? What was the need to reset properties for each update? Why are some admin decisions skewed in favor of certain group? There may have been very good reasons for this and maybe it was shared somewhere. But it does not seem to have been shared well enough. This is, for me, the single most important root cause for failure. This has been my experience from RL as well - if communication breaks down, everything fails. After all, players are human beings who are either having fun or escaping RL drudgery to have fun. 

Another reason why we failed was cuz players gave up on the server. If someone is on the server, they may join. More than once, if there is one player, a second joins, then a third and fourth. But no one seems to take initiative to join and be there in-game. Yes, this is not a root cause but it is a major contributing factor. I tried setting up a small rp event (house party) and not one person even mentioned that it was not of any interest or it would need to better thought of.

For the reasons above, I don't feel that changing a server to MTA SA or III MP will help - if underlying illness stays, how will anything succeed? Something needs to change. New servers may help for some time as it's new but in the mid to long term, it will most likely die out.

So what's a potential way forward?

Well, I have an idea to revive the ingame community and get people to stay. Maybe it has been discussed and if so, I'd appreciate if the results of that discussion can be summed up.

Here it is - if autocratic leadership worked well in the past, it doesn't now. And to try and repeat it again in the hope it will work is not a good idea as we will lose players in the process.

So make it like real life. Elect the server leaders. The players elect the Division Chief and Managers. The Division Chief and the Manager select administration etc. If the players are not happy with administration, the results show in the next election which may be held annually. One important thing - No more than one Division Chief or Manager can be from the same clan / group, from the announcement of their candidature to their exit from the post.

For the first time alone, the community leaders will need to select the Division Chief, managers and admins. Thereon, it needs to be player decisions. If a Division Chief or Manager becomes inactive for a predefined time, the Community Leader will select the Division Chief for the interim.

Community leaders will play little to no role in daily matters (bans, script changes, server updates, etc.). They will only step in when they need to, as they decide and as a last resort.

How does this help?
When the players decide, the Division Chiefs will work for the server. Autocracy will need to be set aside. The life of a server is its playerbase and that will be taken care of well. Such elected server leaders will communicate well with players, if they want to stay elected.

Players will also show more interest in server matters when their voice is heard.

Conclusion

Happy to hear your views. If you like it, great. If you do not like it, tell me how it can be different - but in the interest of Argonath, it has to be different from the current system if we want any hope of a revival.

 I'm happy to be wrong and if it is chosen to continue the current system; because if I'm wrong, we win 

TL;DR: in my brief time on the samp server, I spoke to players and tried different things on server to understand what went wrong. Communication seems to be most important thing which went wrong. Lack of player initiative was a major contributing factor. We need to change the approach to governing the server, elected leadership is one such approach.

[Kowalski.]

No offence but this is the 9 billionth topic about the same thing. Also, CLs have already confirmed there will not be a player-elected HQ.

The best thing to do now is waiting for MTA:SA. I don't think there's a point in repeatedly trying to fix this broken record anymore.

[Cutt3r]

None taken, I must have missed those 9 billion topics then. it is also a clear case that autocracy doesn't work and player needs must be positively heard for a good playerbase.

If it doesn't work, fine, I don't want to reignite this or have them respond again to this.

Topic may kindly be locked if no other options work (though I fail to understand why).

[Nathan]

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[Badandy]

Community leadership is active along with development of the new MTA SA server. I made a 27 page concept that is currently getting reviewed by people in the staff channel to make sure there isn't anything missed or thought about. This is not busy work, this is necessary so we don't fuck up. Player feedback during development will also be asked for as we get further into it. The SAMP server isn't going to be continued to be developed as the MTA SA server is meant to replace it with a new experience led by players and their creativity in San Andreas. We will look for player organizers or role models to help organize groups and get their input on what players enjoy. And what we need to improve on.

About the 16th Birthday event, there will be a final SAMP update released that will cover some bug fixes and some event content. Other than that, the focus is on MTA SA. MTA SA is not going to be anything like SAMP and should be considered a brand new server while keeping certain cultural elements like properties and maps.

Change that means anything won't happen quickly. My announcement topic will be released behind schedule but will feature the overall concept of the MTA SA server, the final update to SAMP and a RS4 server summer release. If anyone would like to chat with me about where we are heading, contact me on Discord.

[Cutt3r]

Well sirs, I hope for the success of the server, hence my ideas.  Irrespective of what i believe is best, if the servers are teeming with people, we will all be most happy.

I back you completely for all your efforts and thank you.

[Badandy]

Well sirs, I hope for the success of the server, hence my ideas.  Irrespective of what i believe is best, if the servers are teeming with people, we will all be most happy.

I back you completely for all your efforts and thank you.

If you ever want to talk about the servers, send me a message on discord.

[Hammer_]

Community leadership is active along with development of the new MTA SA server. I made a 27 page concept that is currently getting reviewed by people in the staff channel to make sure there isn't anything missed or thought about. This is not busy work, this is necessary so we don't fuck up. Player feedback during development will also be asked for as we get further into it. The SAMP server isn't going to be continued to be developed as the MTA SA server is meant to replace it with a new experience led by players and their creativity in San Andreas. We will look for player organizers or role models to help organize groups and get their input on what players enjoy. And what we need to improve on.

About the 16th Birthday event, there will be a final SAMP update released that will cover some bug fixes and some event content. Other than that, the focus is on MTA SA. MTA SA is not going to be anything like SAMP and should be considered a brand new server while keeping certain cultural elements like properties and maps.

Change that means anything won't happen quickly. My announcement topic will be released behind schedule but will feature the overall concept of the MTA SA server, the final update to SAMP and a RS4 server summer release. If anyone would like to chat with me about where we are heading, contact me on Discord.

Thing is, you may focus on MTA SA, but I'm talking about me alone here, I'm not very fond of that idea. Specially over SA:MP, and I know you have reasonable arguments but on a personal level, I'd still prefer SA:MP to MTA:SA. Many making topics about SAMP only want SAMP to return, that's why they're trying for it.

[Cutt3r]

Hi Hammer_
I'm keen to know - why do you want SAMP alone? Why not MTA SA? I mean, as long as you have active players to play with, any version should be good right?

[Khm]

Community leadership is active along with development of the new MTA SA server. I made a 27 page concept that is currently getting reviewed by people in the staff channel to make sure there isn't anything missed or thought about. This is not busy work, this is necessary so we don't fuck up. Player feedback during development will also be asked for as we get further into it. The SAMP server isn't going to be continued to be developed as the MTA SA server is meant to replace it with a new experience led by players and their creativity in San Andreas. We will look for player organizers or role models to help organize groups and get their input on what players enjoy. And what we need to improve on.

About the 16th Birthday event, there will be a final SAMP update released that will cover some bug fixes and some event content. Other than that, the focus is on MTA SA. MTA SA is not going to be anything like SAMP and should be considered a brand new server while keeping certain cultural elements like properties and maps.

Change that means anything won't happen quickly. My announcement topic will be released behind schedule but will feature the overall concept of the MTA SA server, the final update to SAMP and a RS4 server summer release. If anyone would like to chat with me about where we are heading, contact me on Discord.

Thing is, you may focus on MTA SA, but I'm talking about me alone here, I'm not very fond of that idea. Specially over SA:MP, and I know you have reasonable arguments but on a personal level, I'd still prefer SA:MP to MTA:SA. Many making topics about SAMP only want SAMP to return, that's why they're trying for it.

Well if you like samp why aren't you active on it right now and contribute to reviving it? It's the perfect timing to have friends in to create a group and grow up quickly since activity is so low, what stops you from joining now? Genuinly asking.

[Hammer_]

What stops me from joining is pointlessly driving around, with no one who would wanna join. Trust me, I reached out to multiple people, and most of them said “it’s a shitty server, the management sucks and won’t let you do what you wanna with your creative ideas” that’s just a brief summary, but yes I’d prefer SA:MP over MTA:SA, but it’s like you’re shooting yourself in the foot by saying why don’t you join? What difference does it make by me joining, 4/5 of us make these topics, we go in-game, hopelessly drive around and do nothing. I deleted every single game from my laptop some time ago cause of exams, now that they’re over I downloaded SAMP again but still, I’d rather go out with my friends than drive around in a server that’s got 0 players. Even if it’s 5 of us, no one’s gonna join just becsuse they see 5 players. You’re a manager, why don’t you join?

[Hammer_]

Hi Hammer_
I'm keen to know - why do you want SAMP alone? Why not MTA SA? I mean, as long as you have active players to play with, any version should be good right?

Prefer SA:MP client better, and overall have memories attached to SAMP that can’t be replaced by MTA or any other, just too attached to SAMP in a way you can say. The only thing I’d give SAMP up for is V:MP, but that’s that.

[Cutt3r]

Instead of driving around, have you tried the scripted jobs? I have had hours of fun with them, they are well scripted and, more important, well documented in /help.

For me, while I may be alone on server, I find solace in the fact that I'm trying and doing what I can from my end. For those who truly support the SA community,  interest needs to be generated by being ingame. Yes this takes days or months. But if we care about it, we need to do something - this sacrifice / effort needs to start with us.

[Badandy]

What stops me from joining is pointlessly driving around, with no one who would wanna join. Trust me, I reached out to multiple people, and most of them said “it’s a shitty server, the management sucks and won’t let you do what you wanna with your creative ideas” that’s just a brief summary, but yes I’d prefer SA:MP over MTA:SA, but it’s like you’re shooting yourself in the foot by saying why don’t you join? What difference does it make by me joining, 4/5 of us make these topics, we go in-game, hopelessly drive around and do nothing. I deleted every single game from my laptop some time ago cause of exams, now that they’re over I downloaded SAMP again but still, I’d rather go out with my friends than drive around in a server that’s got 0 players. Even if it’s 5 of us, no one’s gonna join just becsuse they see 5 players. You’re a manager, why don’t you join?

I quit development of the SAMP server due to how awful it is to develop for the platform. I got burnt out. I don't find it fair to call the management awful when there isn't anyone left. JDC and I tried to bring some life to the server that worked for a while but JDC had real life issues and I got burnt out. To me, the server isn't interesting and doesn't hold up nowadays. That is why the MTA SA server is being made. It allows for creative ideas to work easier and better. An idea I have been in love with which was suggested for the SAMP server was towable trailer homes and I would like to see those act like properties. Alot is possible in SAMP but I think we have been trying to "save" this server for like 4 years. This is why we are moving forward with MTA SA. MTA SA is a better client that will allow us to develop better and easier along with possibly recruiting new players that are interested in an English rpg server. I'm hoping for something new and interesting. I tried my shot at the Argonath SAMP server, it's time to move on.

[Cutt3r]

What stops me from joining is pointlessly driving around, with no one who would wanna join. Trust me, I reached out to multiple people, and most of them said “it’s a shitty server, the management sucks and won’t let you do what you wanna with your creative ideas” that’s just a brief summary, but yes I’d prefer SA:MP over MTA:SA, but it’s like you’re shooting yourself in the foot by saying why don’t you join? What difference does it make by me joining, 4/5 of us make these topics, we go in-game, hopelessly drive around and do nothing. I deleted every single game from my laptop some time ago cause of exams, now that they’re over I downloaded SAMP again but still, I’d rather go out with my friends than drive around in a server that’s got 0 players. Even if it’s 5 of us, no one’s gonna join just becsuse they see 5 players. You’re a manager, why don’t you join?

I quit development of the SAMP server due to how awful it is to develop for the platform. I got burnt out. I don't find it fair to call the management awful when there isn't anyone left. JDC and I tried to bring some life to the server that worked for a while but JDC had real life issues and I got burnt out. To me, the server isn't interesting and doesn't hold up nowadays. That is why the MTA SA server is being made. It allows for creative ideas to work easier and better. An idea I have been in love with which was suggested for the SAMP server was towable trailer homes and I would like to see those act like properties. Alot is possible in SAMP but I think we have been trying to "save" this server for like 4 years. This is why we are moving forward with MTA SA. MTA SA is a better client that will allow us to develop better and easier along with possibly recruiting new players that are interested in an English rpg server. I'm hoping for something new and interesting. I tried my shot at the Argonath SAMP server, it's time to move on.

Great learnings and good to have discussed some of these things in more detail with you. It does look promising and I'm more joyous at the prospect of having new players being able to find our server on MTASA.