Clarification (Contains harsh wording) (not for the weak minded)

[Omri]

All hail 2007ers!!!!!

[Gandalf]

Sorry if this post doesn't make much sense, I'm up at 3:45am for no particular reason.

The main change from the older times (also the start of RS3) is what I always say:
In the past, the admins helped the players with rules as guidelines.
In the present, the admins enforce the rules at any cost to the players.

The admins are still one of the few who actually help new players, as regulars can usually not be bothered. as for enforcing the rules, you have probably forgotten that the developers are more harsh in their punishment than any admin.

Teleports used to be given for people who were stranded, whereas now admins just shrug it off and tell them to call a taxi, which they've probably already been doing for an hour. Players used to actually play the game with the admins, who had the power to keep the server going well and allow players to enjoy it - but they could use this power how they saw fit and it worked so much better.

Teleports have always been forbidden to give, and the developers give the example by not teleporting unless strictly needed. If players have been calling a taxi or bus for one hour that reflects much more if the unwillingness of regulars to pick up someone stranded as it does on the willingness of admins to break rules.

Increasing reliance on a "by the book" approach has kicked out a lot of the best admins, and replaced a few of them with what can only be described as robots. They won't hear your explanation, or why it was only slight break on the rules with no victims at all. You broke the rules sir, and you're going to be kicked!

The admins kicked were the ones that were either not active or were controversial within the team. The best admins have grown to manager positions.
The restructure has left a lower amount of admins, meaning that there is less time for talk and admins are more busy. That will change over time, by expanding the team with capable players. However the number of players that are both capable and willing when checked seems to be rather low at this time.

If it were real life you wouldn't expect the police to arrest you for an extroadinarily minor offence. I can't actually think of a good example from the law though, since for the most part thats there to help people, so only a few minor victimless ways to break the law exist. I don't feel the rules serve that purpose as much as they used to. They now act as a hindrance more than necessary, to people who mean no harm and with no devious intentions. Like the SAPD law is constantly added to in order to create new ways to suspect random citizens and for no other reason, admins enforce rules for no real reason other than "its the rules". This is not how it once was. Perhaps the main admins look upon that period as a "bad" one, but most others remember it fondly.

The actions of players provoke this. If we see the attitude of players when pulled over, in the real life you talk about they would be arested, being used force upon and could even be shot.

As for totally following the rules to the letter (at any cost to fun and enjoyment).. I'm not saying thats not a direction that one could take with an admin team.
I'm just saying I outright disagree with it.

Check our rules page. If you can not follow that to the letter, get out of here.

[Stanley_Taylor]

One time I was stranded at Disney Land and I figured I could get a teleport then. Cutt3r said call a cab too, then when no cab took the call he arrived in a taxi himself and took me back to LS 

[Oliver]

The first day I joined the server I was greeted with a ban for something I didn't do. When I asked for justification by the banning admin he told me I had broken the rules, something I hadn't done. Luckily I was unbanned by Gimli in a matter of minutes.
I agree with Panda that admins are doing everything by the book now and some of the admins would rather just freeze/ajail you than actually ask what happened to make an unbiased decision.

[BlackBird]

The admins are still one of the few who actually help new players, as regulars can usually not be bothered.

Actually untrue, i see far more regulars helping new players then admins, so far the only admins i've really seen take time out of there schedule to help them are dave and occasionally vince, I'm sorry, but i don't "Hey guys someone help id XX with the server rules" as a admin helping a new player like they used to.

Let me list the typical response from some regulars who i will leave nameless
Newguy: what can i do on this server?
reponse1: Be a cop and DM criminals
response2: im busy ask someone else
reponse3: be a criminal and dm cops

newguy: how can i be a cop?
response1: DM orange names
response2: oh boy another abusing freecop!


it's now rarer then ever that someone actually gives a legitimate answer to a new players question without directly insulting or moaning.
Panda this is the only thing i agree with in your statement.
the rest completely contradicts everything i'm trying to accomplish with this topic, so heres what i saw from you
"COPS DO THIS AND ABUSE TO MUCH!!!!!!!!"
at this point I'm gonna assume your moaning because you like the attention.
If you were truly there in the old days you would understand that hardly any new laws have been added, and that it's not the cops as much as the criminals that changed.

[Daco]

Administrator Comment

Finally success as troll. Enjoy your moderated status.

[Gandalf]

The first day I joined the server I was greeted with a ban for something I didn't do. When I asked for justification by the banning admin he told me I had broken the rules, something I hadn't done. Luckily I was unbanned by Gimli in a matter of minutes.
I agree with Panda that admins are doing everything by the book now and some of the admins would rather just freeze/ajail you than actually ask what happened to make an unbiased decision.

Players are asking for more and more defined rules, yet feel admins should not enforce them strictly. Do you see any contradiction there ?

[BlackBird]

Players are asking for more and more defined rules, yet feel admins should not enforce them strictly. Do you see any contradiction there ?

The ones who feel the rules should be more defined (such as myself) feel if a admin is gonna enforce a rule that isn't either listed or defined, that it should be written.
I do not deny some contradict themselves, but if a admin is gonna enforce a rule, it should be written, instead of loosly spoken about and then randomly enforced.

All some of us are asking for is a clearer definition of the rules for example
No Glitching - This may include but is not limited to Mods that provide a enhanced gaming experience for only the player with the mod, or drive by as driver when not a biker cop.

[Pandalink]

Check our rules page. If you can not follow that to the letter, get out of here.

I realise this is a position developers have to take, in the same way that a judge in real life can't go ahead and say "Yea that law is okay to break sometimes". As a result, I'm not going to post anything else in reply.
Post Merge: May 11, 2010, 05:17:57 pm

so heres what i saw from you
"COPS DO THIS AND ABUSE TO MUCH!!!!!!!!"

Funny that, I barely mentioned ingame cops in my post or abuse at all.
Now who looks stupid.

at this point I'm gonna assume your moaning because you like the attention.

Oh man, the fucking irony.
You're such a hypocrit Dark. All you do it bitch and moan and nobody likes you for it.

If you were truly there in the old days you would understand that hardly any new laws have been added, and that it's not the cops as much as the criminals that changed.

I ask again, in all seriousness, whose post were you reading that you thought was mine?
I was talking almost totally about admins, I never even mentioned criminals, and only touched on cops once.


Seriously, stop trying to be an attention seeker Dark. Nobody likes you for it when all you do is try to insult every single person you meet. Your arrogant and abrasive attitude is going to screw you over in the future, so fix it now.

[Gandalf]

The ones who feel the rules should be more defined (such as myself) feel if a admin is gonna enforce a rule that isn't either listed or defined, that it should be written.
I do not deny some contradict themselves, but if a admin is gonna enforce a rule, it should be written, instead of loosly spoken about and then randomly enforced.

All some of us are asking for is a clearer definition of the rules for example
No Glitching - This may include but is not limited to Mods that provide a enhanced gaming experience for only the player with the mod, or drive by as driver when not a biker cop.

Glitching is using game bugs that are not part of the gameplay to your advantage.
Using a mod is not glitching.
Driveby as driver is, and so is scrolling your weapons to reload them fast.

The issue we have with clarification is that the more is defined, the more people will point at it if something differs an inch from the definition.
For this we created the topic where players can get clear guidance on our interpretation of the rules. Basicly if players either see a situation they think is not allowed, or have a discussion with the admin team about something, they can ask it in this topic. On the 38 pages there is not a lot of spam, and many clarifications are given.  This is more useful than a detailed rulebook.

[Gandalf]

I realise this is a position developers have to take, in the same way that a judge in real life can't go ahead and say "Yea that law is okay to break sometimes". As a result, I'm not going to post anything else in reply.

I guess you got the point. Also when you check the rules page, without the interpretation,  they are very easy to follow. It when judgement of situations comes in to play that things get more hard, and that solid rules are not easy to apply.

[Pandalink]

I guess you got the point. Also when you check the rules page, without the interpretation,  they are very easy to follow. It when judgement of situations comes in to play that things get more hard, and that solid rules are not easy to apply.

I believe this is where the admin interpretations come in.
Perhaps lately admins have just had far tighter interpretations of the rules, for example:
Anyone shooting = DMer.
Extreme example, its not quite that bad yet.

I guess older admins just felt that the players were the priority, rather than the rules themselves - hence their more situation specific interpretations and hence the feelings of older players.

[BlackBird]

Funny that, I barely mentioned ingame cops in my post or abuse at all.
Now who looks stupid.

Actually you look stupid, seeing as you fail to realize that your overall attitude in the community is that of "Cops get everything criminals get jackshit"
The only reason i quoted your post was because i actually agreed with you on the one topic, perhaps your to ignorant to realize this, but im not gonna apologize for my attitude towards you.

Oh man, the f**king irony.
You're such a hypocrit Dark. All you do it bad guy and moan and nobody likes you for it.

i fail to the the irony or hypocrisy of the situation, if you actually took the time to read the entire topic and my posts you might figure out why i act the way i do, then again that would mean you actually thinking about someone other then yourself wouldn't it, so forget i even asked you to do such a minor task that your clearly incapable of.

I ask again, in all seriousness, whose post were you reading that you thought was mine?
I was talking almost totally about admins, I never even mentioned criminals, and only touched on cops once.
Seriously, stop trying to be an attention seeker Dark. Nobody likes you for it when all you do is try to insult every single person you meet. Your arrogant and abrasive attitude is going to screw you over in the future, so fix it now.

My attitude is one of the few who are truly offended and disappointed by this community, you want me to fix my attitude?
Fix your dming group, fix your attitude, fix your moaning, fix everyone elses moaning, and all the other criminal groups that moan, and all the cops that moan, perhaps then we can have a legitimate conversation on who has a right to act the way they do and who is being a selfish infant because "I CANT HAZ IT THE WAY I WANTS AND COPS GET EVERYTHING!!!!"

Glitching is using game bugs that are not part of the gameplay to your advantage.
Using a mod is not glitching.
Driveby as driver is, and so is scrolling your weapons to reload them fast.

The issue we have with clarification is that the more is defined, the more people will point at it if something differs an inch from the definition.
For this we created the topic where players can get clear guidance on our interpretation of the rules. Basicly if players either see a situation they think is not allowed, or have a discussion with the admin team about something, they can ask it in this topic. On the 38 pages there is not a lot of spam, and many clarifications are given.  This is more useful than a detailed rulebook.

using a mod that would therefor effect game play other then visual effects would be seen as cheating though.

but how many players actually use that topic, to my knowledge only a few have

[Violet]

All hail 2007ers!!!!!

It's only those who joined Argonath in 2007 or before that are saving this place from becoming exactly the same as the other RP servers. Some new people's attitudes are very much in line with the Argonath Vision however it's a clear trend that the later a player joins the community, the less they are attached to the history of this community. I agree with some of Dark's points, but I think a lot of it is exaggerating and the post in itself becomes a moan.

[kohvimees]

I'm also an "2007 edition" Argonather(word?), but i have to say what i think was the changing factor in the outer shell of Argonath(the core has stayed the same thanks to the great work of our strict leaders). I believe that the fact money had no real value in RS1 with all the slot machines made the players focus more on the roleplaying for fun and themselves, not to gain a faster car and a bigger house. Another thing, i believe, caused the change of roleplaying in Argonath was going official which brought Argonath more players along with the ever-so-boring and typical roleplay. I remember, for example, Carhartt, who was a good friend of mine, had this free style of roleplay without all the brackets and recognition of power-, and metagaming. A good while later, even he was influenced by the overrun of 1337rpz0r...bah anyway, don't get me wrong, Argonath is still fun, but in a different way, besides, if one can face being a bit different from others, he will always be a true fun player.
I know lot of this made no sense whatsoever but i thought i tried doing the writing thing once in a while here.