To VCMP Argonath players and owners

[muzdaaz]

Hello,

I made this topic to express my feelings/concerns about recent events.

Please refer to following topic:
http://www.argonathrpg.eu/forum/index.php?topic=72633.0

    Due to these changes, one of the most active and loyal players got banned (Perry,Marcell,Kessu). In result, for me, the server changed into.. something else. You may think "oh we just banned few constant rulebreaker, the VCMP server will be a better place for now". Well these players sticked to the server, helped  newbies start their RP life (including me) and actually played the game. Marcell for example started helping/training me a while back even tho I was a cop and constantly hunted him (altho I died mostly ). VCMP community is not that big that we can choose the best of the best and ban all the rest.
   We need to accept people as they are and try to adjust to their style, while providing tips for them to improve, instead of plainly start accusing or waiting, waiting, waiting and suddenly: "BOOM ur banned for constantly flaming and disrespecting others who f**k with you all the time while sexually abusing F8, kthxbai, see you when you change your attitude towards them". I agree they overreacted in certain times, but so does anyone else who actually plays in Argo for like 12/7.
    About demoting Klaus, like it or not... the dude has contributed a lot to VCMP Argo. Even tho I did not like him at first(trust me), he kept the server running smooth and was an active admin (quite rare thing at the moment). The fact that he has been rolling with Argo for years means that he is an important part of the community. Being demoted due "nazi comment" that can be understood in a different way (altho there were probably other disagreements between owners and him) is wrong in my opinion. Racist comments are bullshit but every man reacts to them and understands them differently. Server needs an active manager, and I cant see any other who has been that loyal to VCMP Argonath. He may have f**ked up some times, but he certainly deserves another chance.
    Our little community (which of course is a part of Argonath in case someone starts that BS again)
is a little different. It accepts people as they are and does not force people to be robots, instead creating a unique, realistic atmosphere which is hard to be described via words. There is a cost, one must adjust to others and sometimes get some shit shoveled into his face. It takes some time to understand this but thats how I like to play. After trying other communities, I choose this server exactly due to these reasons.
    Would like to hear from VCMP  people's opinions on that. Please respect all arguments about this case as this topic was made to discuss and consider other opputunities to solve this. Im sure there are people who disagree with me and that is totally fine. Lets see what you guys think about this. Some time has past and maybe you have got some toughts you would like to share now.
   

[ferrari32]

 :hurray:

[Kessu]

I agree with every single word.. Everyone in VCMP (of the requlars) knows each others and that's why we have the gypsy and b00n talks almost all the time..

About Klaus.. He's been here almost from the start... He was already an admin when I joined VCMP (Argonath was my first server) in January 2008.. He's kept the server alive when other abandon it.. I don't see anyone else fitting as good to Manager position than Klaus.. Only because of how active he is and imo he has done the job of Manager very well as far as I'm concerned..

But yeah, to our "little" overreactions, they were way over the top and we deserved our bans as I said in the other topic also.


Props to muzzie of making this topic   :bow:

[ferrari32]

The gypsy and b00n talks are almost never to offend anyone, it's normal to tease friends.

[Marcell]

Lol I won't lie this time or anything...I get provoked quite easily and my day isn't complete until at least one cuss drops from my tongue, but really...I feel like I got banned just cause I was the most active one. Let's not lie, I believe most of players do cuss and flame, and our admin team always took light punishments cause they always knew it's just a spit-fight, thus the biggest punishment was a temp-ban...my problem is, I feel like I got banned cause I was the most active one in the period of time while owners decided to take actions...I do know that my acting wasn't the best, that I insulted players and such, but if you want to punish everyone for that...you should ban 90% of the players as well, as it seems I was banned cause I was most active by the time... Anyone thinks I would flame, if players would get banned for saying a single 'f**k you' or similar insult? I don't think so...

that's all I have to say for now...I understand what I did was wrong, and I do have a flaming attidute indeed; although I don't throw shit at others without a reason...not to mention that I feel sorrow just cause only I was banned, while, trust me, everyone did flame at least once. I'm the bad guy here just cause I was active and reported...by people who I could report before..

so in short, I did deserve a ban. But I was not the only one that did. Instead of banning the active ones, you could warn the admin team to start executing heavier punishments for flaming and such; and warn the peeps like me to better chill tha fuk down..

[Klaus]

The whole thing was a bad move. Don't say I don't respect the owners or their decisions, because the owners know themselves that I do. I just think that the actions that were taken was an overreaction that for a fact has greatly hurt the servers spirit and activity. Sure these guys made mistakes, but those same guys were so important to the server; only true VCMPers who played the game can understand. I stood up for Marcell because he was a great player, not because he was in my clan. Banning him for something that most players always do seemed harsh in my view. That's why I said it was a shame to see him banned.

Those who know me well know I bleed Argo, and loyalty is something important to me. That's why I'm still around while others in my posistion would of probably walked. I've always been very tolerant to 'flaming' for the reasons already explained. It's hard to explain but its the spirit of the server.

[Gandalf]

Lets say it this way. In the past years we have given the VC:MP community too much freedom, which has resulted in them going away from the original Argonath ideas.
We started Argonath because we were not happy with where we played as people there were happy to flame and curse to each other and punish any newcomer who had the nerve to say anything against them. To see one part of Argonath turning in to that behaviour is something we can not accept.
We have always supported Klaus, and would still like to support him. However he and the admin team should realize that they have to run the server to the principles of the owners. And that includes a severe limitation in flaming and offending each other for "friendly jokes", a direct punishment of any racism related issues and removing from the community anyone who feels new people are to be disrespected rather than welcomed.

If Klaus and the current team of admins and players are willing to work under those conditions, we will be happy to continue with them. If they prefer a place where they can shit and insult each other and whoever comes in, they can make it elsewhere.

[Marcell]

It would be too much shit on admin's arms to handle all the flamers we had; especially when some (admins) had activity problems in the past...in the end, if we would be hardcore on punishing flamers, it would be just Klaus active, banning literally everyone. Banning a few people like me for doing something what - let's not lie - most of players did, is wrong in my opinion. Looks like I was the rag doll that's suspossed to be a warning for others. I think the actions were too hardcore, and you could just press the admin team into more serious punishments for flaming, thus this situation that decreased whole server activity wouldn't happen

but im not the one to speak after all the flaming I put people through, right..

[Ratko Gavrilovic]

I remember that back in '08 Klaus and Kessu were very helpful, to both me and other players.
Too bad that others are sometimes ruining the fun and influencing the good ones by flaming and making these funny jokes.

[Kessu]

Sure we can work under those conditions, there's no problem in that, but I hope you don't mind with me asking this:
If we still, on the server we love, call each other "boons" for killing someone with M60 (that has been around for years), is it an warnable/bannable offense or can we actually keep doing what we have done for years?

I understand removing the racial comments such as "n*gg* you killed me" and those from main chat, but that (b00n for example) is how we grew to speak to each others in the community I have been in for over three years

Also for flaming the newcomers to standing up against someone, I agree with punishing them also.

And I really, truly do hope that even you, owners, would start to play even a little bit in VCMP also, so you can see the atmosphere and such.. It cannot be described with words how we grew together in the past few years within VCMP 

[muzdaaz]

Lets say it this way. In the past years we have given the VC:MP community too much freedom, which has resulted in them going away from the original Argonath ideas.

The freedom you gave to VCMP made it unique, going a little different path (not wrong one tho). Also, I believe that it may be hard to understand how things work there if you come from another community, as did I. Anyway, you can not expect that all regulars will run to help newbies as soon as they join the server. Each man has different personality, thus they will help them but the timing might not be the best. Depending of your luck you may have a good, or you may get a shitty starting experience. I got a little bit of both due what I mentioned before. As time goes, people become friends, some sooner, some later, few ones never. But the friendship combined with ability to tolerate other players and take them as they are is a vital part of what VCMP Argonath is about.

[Marcell]

Speaking of the welcoming new players, I think our server was always a great example, most of newbies were taught the rules in less than a few minutes, and cause of lower player number nobody got discriminating and everyone made something out of himself, when you mention a player's nick from our server, most of people know him. He doesn't need to get banned, flame or hack to get recognised, as long as he speaks english.

[Klaus]

You are indeed right. Ronnel, I have no idea in where you got the idea that new players are not welcomed. Every new player has always been welcomed with open hands. As Marcell has already explained, as the community isn't huge new players find it easier to fit in and get to know everyone.

The gypsy and b00n talks are almost never to offend anyone, it's normal to tease friends.

The word 'b00n' has been taken way out of context by a small majority since I created the term about 2 years ago. Most regular VCMPers understand the term and its meaning, which has no personal intentions whatsoever. Also, the word 'gypsy' was first used by EAF towards Spiral who he himself understands the meaning. No it's not racist, this term is used by travelers themselves. The fact is, that a small majority of people have jumped at the possibility to label these as abusive terms to incriminate those who use them.

[Alarba]

Argonath VC:MP server has indeed, as previously stated, a different method of work. We are not baboons ( no pun intended with boon ) that midlessly run our server with savagery and disrespect. However, seen by a sleepy eye, it might seem that flaming and insulting of all sorts are allowed by the administration team and have been implemented as a rule instead of rulebreaking. This is a lie. Argonath VC:MP server is not a playground for us, it's our second house, we give sweat, tears and blood on this server because we know each other well, as a family we developed our own language, it mostly involves swearing but no one of us takes the swearing seriously WITHIN our regular group of players. Obviously alot of people wish VC:MP to become a sacred land, thing is it's so sacred they don't put their feet on the land. We welcome our newbies well ( look for a second, muzdaaz hasn't been with us that long and he was the one creating this topic! ) but then they are faced with insults flying around on the main chat. People here know me, i've been called perhaps 100 different names ( Me being the reason the word b00n exists ) and i never punished them, i know they mean no harm (And i don't get offended ). But when it comes to other players getting insulted, i've always punished whoever did it.

On a Side Note : The admin team and Klaus have already expressed their willingness to solve things (more than 1 time in more than 1 different place).
2nd Side Note: Still regarding "b00n" and "gypsy". b00n came from me using M60 which killed everyone in 3 shots, klaus then gave me that nickname.
*Gypsy explained by klaus*

[JDC]

The VC:MPers have come to know each other well, yes. However the problem in the past years is that they have become isolated in a sense from the rest of the Argonath Community, to the point of being racist (discriminatory) against SA:MPers, whether good or bad. In the end, VC:MP's player lineup was made up of an inside circle of players and a lot of new players who ended up not being taught properly, which ended up producing plenty of flaming and deathmatching.

One of the best criticisms I could level at the admin team that served under Klaus (and even at Klaus himself) was the abundance of insults, racism, and flaming that were flying around in VC:MP... circle of friends or not, Argonath is not supposed to tolerate flaming on any Argonath Server, and VC:MP is no exception. Had the majority of leading players in VC:MP not deviated from the Argonath standard, this would have not happened...

Also, I doubt Klaus was demoted from his Manager position for just one simple Nazi comment. Such a move would be out of character for the Owners.