What to do when RHL expires

[Antonio.]

I have split the non-developers discussion away from the topic.
While I have given an answer (well I will once I finish this) a discussion is useful on this topic, so that we can reach a workable solution for both admins and criminals/cops involved.

What do we need to solve?

1. Evading the cops until the wanted level is dropped is one of the encouraged ways for criminals who do not want to go to jail. It is preferred above fighting until death.

2. In many cases, criminals are evading in a group. As crimes can vary their RHL time (time until wanted level is removed) can vary as well.

3. If one of the criminals loses their wanted level, this is considered an 'end of roleplay' similar to dying. This means the criminal should no longer be considered part of roleplay, and not be involving them selves in it.

4. It is however not fair to ask a criminal to step out of the group if they are in a vehicle in the middle of nowhere, or on a boat. For this we need a workable solution.

5. What is clear is that the ciminals who lose their wanted level should leave the roleplay if possible, and are not allowed to continue to take part in it, similar as they would not be allowed to reappear if they die.

6. This also means that cops who are chasing should watch if a member is no longer suspected. They can then assume safely he is no longer allowed to take part and they are not allowed to (re)suspect.

That goes for all the ignorant ones who have ignored what criminals have been informing you the whole time.

[Salmonella]

I can think of plenty of people and groups banned and punished for such.

For this?:

A wanted level meant the cops suspected you of doing something against the law. Not having a wanted level didn't mean you didn't or weren't commit(ting) any crime. It was just an indication for the law enforcement, nothing more than an indication. It does kind of sadden me to see stuff like this, because this just disencourages a natural way for a roleplay scenario to exist. People will now have to make sure they have enough time on their /rhl to keep playing with their friends, how crazy is that? How are they going to make sure they have enough time on that, so they won't be forced to stop participating in their group's roleplay? That's right, kill as many people as you can, otherwise the fun ends far too soon. Why does it end too soon? Because you're 'encouraged to evade the cops', and therefore the counter goes down.

The roleplay freedom that used to be there cannot exist with nonsense regulations and rules like this. I can't imagine cruising with my biker gang, trying to escape the cops, when the guy sitting on the back of my bike, taking care of any assaulting officers, has to leave as soon as we're progressing and he loses his wanted level. This way, when you're with 4 people, you'll eventually end up alone, trying to escape the cops. All this does is disencourage multiplaying, evading the cops, freedom (in criminal roleplay), fun and realistically oriented roleplay. What it does encourage however, is deathmatch and other ways to keep the /rhl high, people trying to kill or get killed instead of escaping, frustration amongst criminal roleplayers and any other ways to try and evade this crazy system where you are no longer allowed to play with your friends if they are orange and you are not.

I cannot.

Is it not true?

[Gandalf]

It isn't to me, but this system does encourage it. Not just for the obvious reasons of making sure you can keep playing with your friends, but also because you can't even start playing with wanted people if you're not wanted, according to this.

If you mean by playing to join in to kill cops, you are right that you can not.
As for the system encouraging it, you are wRONg. The system does not discourage it, which is a whole different kind of thing.

[Devin]

That goes for all the ignorant ones who have ignored what criminals have been informing you the whole time.

I appreciate your compliment and I love you too.

[Gandalf]

For this?:

I cannot.

Is it not true?

No it is not true. The problem here is that people do not see a wanted indicator as that they did something against the law, but as a license to start killing as many as you can.
That by itself is bannable.

[Gandalf]

That goes for all the ignorant ones who have ignored what criminals have been informing you the whole time.

The issue is to find a workable solution where everyone involved will know how to act and what is allowed or not.

It should break the endless violence from both sides and allow players who follow the rules and guidelines to play respecting each other, regardless what role they choose.

[SugarD]

Is it not true?

No.

A wanted level meant the cops suspected you of doing something against the law. Not having a wanted level didn't mean you didn't or weren't commit(ting) any crime. It was just an indication for the law enforcement, nothing more than an indication.

That would be true.

It does kind of sadden me to see stuff like this, because this just discourages a natural way for a roleplay scenario to exist. People will now have to make sure they have enough time on their /rhl to keep playing with their friends, how crazy is that? How are they going to make sure they have enough time on that, so they won't be forced to stop participating in their group's roleplay? That's right, kill as many people as you can, otherwise the fun ends far too soon. Why does it end too soon? Because you're 'encouraged to evade the cops', and therefore the counter goes down.

You can easily sit in their car or stand around waiting for the scenario to end. Being suspected should only be one part of a roleplay, and you can have multiple going at once as long as they don't return to the one they just were forced to leave, as per the server rules.

The roleplay freedom that used to be there cannot exist with nonsense regulations and rules like this. I can't imagine cruising with my biker gang, trying to escape the cops, when the guy sitting on the back of my bike, taking care of any assaulting officers, has to leave as soon as we're progressing and he loses his wanted level. This way, when you're with 4 people, you'll eventually end up alone, trying to escape the cops.

How? You should be trying to escape the police regardless. You aren't enemy military trying to take out the police force. You are civilians and career-criminals that don't want to get caught or be killed. The point is to get away with your crimes, if you can. If your friends have to stand by while you lose the cops, so what? You just rejoin each other after to start a new roleplay. This also does not stop them from hanging around or roleplaying with each other in your presence separate from your own situation while you all wait.

All this does is discourage multiplaying, evading the cops, freedom (in criminal roleplay), fun and realistically oriented roleplay.

So hanging around together gunning down cops constantly to no end is realistic roleplay? Evading the cops should be the number one priority for everyone suspected. If they get unsuspected or their timer runs out, they are successful. Why would they want to get suspected again and start that whole mess all over?

What it does encourage however, is deathmatch and other ways to keep the /rhl high, people trying to kill or get killed instead of escaping, frustration amongst criminal roleplayers and any other ways to try and evade this crazy system where you are no longer allowed to play with your friends if they are orange and you are not.

Actually, it discourages that. The fact that players don't follow the rules is what encourages them to get into shootouts. If they followed the rules, they would have no choice but to wait and not get involved, which has been how things were set up for years.

What happened to the days when a wanted level was just an indicator, that wasn't anything but an indicator?
It should've been kept simple and free...

When RHL was added, it gave criminals a way to escape instead of running around the map until they were jailed or died. As a result, they were removed from the ability to return after their RP ended so they wouldn't gain a massive advantage over police. Police were allowed to keep responding because they have to fight a timer which will run out if they don't. If they didn't have unlimited chances before the limited time ends, criminals would always shoot nearby cops until every single cop had died, and then they could just stand there until they escaped.

[Salmonella]

If you mean by playing to join in to kill cops, you are right that you can not.
As for the system encouraging it, you are wRONg. The system does not discourage it, which is a whole different kind of thing.

By playing, I mean roleplaying. Roleplaying anything, because being a suspect doesn't mean anything or say anything about what you are doing exactly.
People want to play with their friends, that's the only thing most people will want to do on Argonath. This system restricts them from doing so to an extent, and they will try to find ways around it. Therefore it does encourage them to do things in order for these restrictions to be lifted for them.

Not it is not true.

I meant this part, sorry:

''A wanted level meant the cops suspected you of doing something against the law. Not having a wanted level didn't mean you didn't or weren't commit(ting) any crime. It was just an indication for the law enforcement, nothing more than an indication.''

The problem here is that people do not see a wanted indicator as that they did something against the law, but as a license to start killing as many as you can.
That by itself is bannable.

That by itself is deathmatch. I don't believe that generalization goes for everyone. It doesn't apply to me or any of the people I've roleplayed with. Besides, plain rulebreaking is what you've described, I'm sure the administration will deal with that.

No.
That would be true.

Yeah, once again, sorry, I meant the first sentence only, the thing you replied ''that would be true'' to.

[SugarD]

By playing, I mean roleplaying. Roleplaying anything, because being a suspect doesn't mean anything or say anything about what you are doing exactly.
People want to play with their friends, that's the only thing most people will want to do on Argonath. This system restricts them from doing so to an extent, and they will try to find ways around it. Therefore it does encourage them to do things in order for these restrictions to be lifted for them.

How is it restricting them? If they die, they are dead. If they are jailed, they are in a tiny, barred jail cell. In both situations, they are pretty much powerless from roleplaying with you anyway. If they are unsuspected/their timer runs out, nothing stops them from roleplaying with you.

[Gandalf]

By playing, I mean roleplaying. Roleplaying anything, because being a suspect doesn't mean anything or say anything about what you are doing exactly.
People want to play with their friends, that's the only thing most people will want to do on Argonath. This system restricts them from doing so to an extent, and they will try to find ways around it. Therefore it does encourage them to do things in order for these restrictions to be lifted for them.

Being a suspect clearly means that you know you can be approached by cops any time. It is equal to driving without a license plate in real life, you know that every cop who sees you will take interest.
That restricts you from meeting cops to an extent, however becoming wanted has been your choice. By making the choice to become wanted, you also have to take the consequence of getting attention from the cops.

I meant this part, sorry:

''A wanted level meant the cops suspected you of doing something against the law. Not having a wanted level didn't mean you didn't or weren't commit(ting) any crime. It was just an indication for the law enforcement, nothing more than an indication.''

In effect a wanted level means you failed to hide your crimes from the law enforcement. It also means that you have to choose the options of losing it.

Playing on a multiplayer server like Argonath is not just interacting with your friends. You can do that in a Skype group. It means interacting with everyone who you meet. They can be new friends, old enemies or a mix. Someone can be a total jerk or a refreshing discovery. But unless you give them the chance, you will never know.

[Salmonella]

How? You should be trying to escape the police regardless. You aren't enemy military trying to take out the police force. You are civilians and career-criminals that don't want to get caught or be killed. The point is to get away with your crimes, if you can. If your friends have to stand by while you lose the cops, so what? You just rejoin each other after to start a new roleplay. This also does not stop them from hanging around or roleplaying with each other in your presence separate from your own situation while you all wait.

That's why it's unnatural, because you have to leave each other because of these rules, instead of a roleplay related reason. Where are you getting from that violence has to be involved? In this scenario we would be trying to escape together and merely defend ourselfs when some robocop comes and starts driving by. 'So what?' It's boring, and I don't know about you, but I roleplay with my gang when we're escaping as well, not just when before or after.

You're right about one thing, though. It doesn't stop them from hanging around me if I were to be the suspect. However, when the cops come, the natural thing that would happen is that my friends would help me if things take a turn for the worse, not just let the cops kill me, which this system forces them to do, apparently.

So hanging around together gunning down cops constantly to no end is realistic roleplay? Evading the cops should be the number one priority for everyone suspected. If they get unsuspected or their timer runs out, they are successful. Why would they want to get suspected again and start that whole mess all over?

Once again, why are you assuming that I or we would do something like that? I'm not one of those people that sees beginnings and endings everywhere. Life isn't like that, my roleplaying isn't like that either. So when I escape, I wouldn't be 'successful' per say. If I happen to get suspected again, so be it. I'd rather die helping my gang than letting them get killed and run like a coward myself. Besides, I always liked a good chase, why should it be a mess?

Actually, it discourages that.

What specifically?

When RHL was added, it gave criminals a way to escape instead of running around the map until they were jailed or died. As a result, they were removed from the ability to return after their RP ended so they wouldn't gain a massive advantage over police. Police were allowed to keep responding because they have to fight a timer which will run out if they don't. If they didn't have unlimited chances before the limited time ends, criminals would always shoot nearby cops until every single cop had died, and then they could just stand there until they escaped.

This generalization about criminals just isn't correct. It isn't black or white.

How is it restricting them?

Because they can't join him when he's wanted for something that they're not (anymore). Is that so hard to see?

Being a suspect clearly means that you know you can be approached by cops any time. It is equal to driving without a license plate in real life, you know that every cop who sees you will take interest.
That restricts you from meeting cops to an extent, however becoming wanted has been your choice. By making the choice to become wanted, you also have to take the consequence of getting attention from the cops.

This is all true and I have no problem so far. I just want to be able to get helped or help my partners in crime, especially when they are in trouble.

In effect a wanted level means you failed to hide your crimes from the law enforcement. It also means that you have to choose the options of losing it.

Playing on a multiplayer server like Argonath is not just interacting with your friends. You can do that in a Skype group. It means interacting with everyone who you meet. They can be new friends, old enemies or a mix. Someone can be a total jerk or a refreshing discovery. But unless you give them the chance, you will never know.

Interacting is something you do with everyone, but being a member of a gang, group or family, you'd start most of your roleplay scenarios with them, engaging everyone else in the server with them. This is also why I'm so disappointed by this system, because it restricts it even more than it used to do already. The restrictions I'm used to, such as not running when you're cuffed, are perfectly reasonable and all, but most of this is new to me, and just removed a lot of freedom.

[SugarD]

That's why it's unnatural, because you have to leave each other because of these rules, instead of a roleplay related reason. Where are you getting from that violence has to be involved? In this scenario we would be trying to escape together and merely defend ourselfs when some robocop comes and starts driving by. 'So what?' It's boring, and I don't know about you, but I roleplay with my gang when we're escaping as well, not just when before or after.

You're right about one thing, though. It doesn't stop them from hanging around me if I were to be the suspect. However, when the cops come, the natural thing that would happen is that my friends would help me if things take a turn for the worse, not just let the cops kill me, which this system forces them to do, apparently.

Once again, why are you assuming that I or we would do something like that? I'm not one of those people that sees beginnings and endings everywhere. Life isn't like that, my roleplaying isn't like that either. So when I escape, I wouldn't be 'successful' per say. If I happen to get suspected again, so be it. I'd rather die helping my gang than letting them get killed and run like a coward myself. Besides, I always liked a good chase, why should it be a mess?

What specifically?

This generalization about criminals just isn't correct. It isn't black or white.

Because they can't join him when he's wanted for something that they're not (anymore). Is that so hard to see?

This is all true and I have no problem so far. I just want to be able to get helped or help my partners in crime, especially when they are in trouble.

Interacting is something you do with everyone, but being a member of a gang, group or family, you'd start most of your roleplay scenarios with them, engaging everyone else in the server with them. This is also why I'm so disappointed by this system, because it restricts it even more that it used to do already. The restrictions I'm used to, such as not running when you're cuffed, are perfectly reasonable and all, but most of this is new to me, and just removed a lot of freedom.

1. Why would you have to leave each other? That is not what I said at all. If you are referring to being jailed or killed, what do you expect? That one person in your group being killed or jailed means you all instantly do? I fail to see the "realistic roleplay" in that at all.

2. That is not what the suspection system was designed for. If you want to get into group shootouts, Paruni is a good place to play.

3. See above. I already explained it in detail, several different ways.

4. You are confusing suspects with criminals. Suspects are people caught by police breaking a crime. Criminals are people who commit crimes, but are not necessarily caught. That in itself is pretty black and white, just as it is in real life. If you commit a crime and get caught, police will come after you. If you aren't caught, good job! You pulled off a crime and got away with it! Nothing in that has changed in Argo since it's creation almost 7 years ago.

5. Who says they can't roleplay with him other ways that does not interfere with the police/suspect roleplay?

For example, say you are in a car and everyone but the driver escapes. You are all sitting around, hoping police don't find you. While doing so, one of your friends takes out a joint from his stash and passes it around. Congratulations, you have just started a separate roleplay with the suspected user without interfering with the first one!

6. No comment.

7. If you commit a crime while in said group, then you are already aware of the risks to each and everyone one of you, and as a whole. You can't expect police to magically kill you all or jail you all at the same time, just as you can't expect them to all show up at the same time. It just doesn't make sense.

[Salmonella]

7. If you commit a crime while in said group, then you are already aware of the risks to each and everyone one of you, and as a whole. You can't expect police to magically kill you all or jail you all at the same time, just as you can't expect them to all show up at the same time. It just doesn't make sense.

That also works the other way round. You can't expect the criminal to just magically forget that they were involved in a big crime and are escaping with the other criminals involved as soon as a name turns white instead of orange. It just doesn't make sense to me. That's what's realistic, sticking together and not just magically forgetting what you were doing as soon as a counter ends.

[SugarD]

That also works the other way round. You can't expect the criminal to just magically forget that they were involved in a big crime and are escaping with the other criminals involved as soon as a name turns white instead of orange. It just doesn't make sense to me. That's what's realistic, sticking together and not just magically forgetting what you were doing as soon as a counter ends.

If you want to talk realistic, then please explain to me how dying and returning to the roleplay makes sense.

[Salmonella]

If you want to talk realistic, then please explain to me how dying and returning to the roleplay makes sense.

It doesn't and why are you randomly asking this?