Argonath RPG - A World of its own

GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: Vince on March 10, 2014, 01:56:41 am

Title: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Vince on March 10, 2014, 01:56:41 am
This topic was made in combination with mainly Que and I, with input from many other veterans of the community who want to help get Argo back on its feet as one of the best SA:MP severs out there, which I believe can absolutely happen with help from our members...

Each section was written by either Que or me and you can see in parenthesis ( ) who wrote what... but while we wrote different paragraphs the message is the same from ALL of us.

Lastly, this is a very long post... for a very big problem.. if you do not want to take the time to read it do not bother replying please.....



If your post will be nonconstructive, irrelevant or be aimed at any direction that will or can lead to a wrong turn of this topic's existence, that/them post(s) will be reported and ignored.

Below - you will find some of the veterans approach of getting Argonath back to its high standard, mixed with an already loving community. A couple of hours of discussions has been spent on each point. This is the result and the changes we think will benefit the roleplay and this community.

First of all - we all need to realize that this is where we are right now. Argonath's activity and its quality standard has dropped dramatically. It has been caused by various of factors, and all can be worked on. Nothing is a dead heat. Therefore this topic.

#1 - Skip the ignorance (Que)
This is the most important point. Skip the ignorance. Quit disrespecting the scripters. Quit being a stubborn child because you lost your assets in game. Show some respect and keep your head up high. Argonath's positiveness is drowning, and YOU are letting it happen with the piss of yours. We all choosed to play on Argonath to have fun, not for people to harass or disrespect one another.

Also comments like:
"Why aren't you contributing instead of moaning?"
"If you don't like it here, then leave."

"If you got a complain, use [email protected]"

People should not leave. Every player here should be here. There will always be a bunch of nutshells, but we're speaking in general. Do not use such arguments. Them, if any, are not contributing. Keep up the positive tone. Work for a better community. People will always have different opinions, hence it is even more important to listen to them. Not all, not always, but still - keep it positive and be open minded. And lastly: If people hated Argonath that much, they wouldn't still be here 5 years later trying to fix what's wrong. Keep that in mind Argonathians.

#2 - Reward the roleplay (Vince)
When I joined Argonath in late 2007 we were a roleplay server. People knew how to have fun, but they also knew how to pretend to be the character they were playing. And when you did this, you were rewarded.

Whether it was roleplaying security at Argonath's Disneyland off the coast of Angel Pine and getting paid 10k by Aragorn, or roleplaying a mechanic at GS9 during the days of Rage Incorporated with my old pal [RI]Frank_Hawk (some of you may have heard of him?), people encouraged roleplaying, and when you played on the server you could find someone who would appreciate it, usually in forms of being paid for services, also known as RPing.

An issue that we have now (or had on previous RS4) was that people sort of gave up on roleplaying, and cared more about "material" objects. Instead of having a nice shootout with police and saying "nice gun fight" after or "that was close, maybe next time :P", it was provocative, offensive or even just simply dumb.

Another example is ownership, which thankfully has been addressed in RS5. In the end days of RS4, it mattered more how much money, businesses, and houses and cars you owned than just roleplaying with players. Who had so many millions, when the next $1m lotto was coming to buy guns and armor to go pew pew police or buy armor to patrol with 4 cops in a car and kill any suspect who did not /gu in 3 seconds.

To add onto that, this is not complaining. Because now we present solutions! RS5 introduced the reset, which removed everyone's stats. Everyone started over, which would have worked well if the script was finished when it was released. Oh well, we can work with that.

With the amount of people who left due to RS5, we can start over. But in order to get good players again, we need to reward those who do the RIGHT thing. Official groups such as SAPD, Corleone, Gvardia, etc should be the priority to scripters. They should be able to submit ideas to get scripted in to help REWARD their official status. If they do not DESERVE official status, do not hand it out, very simple....

Groups that are not official or recognized much who roleplay should also be rewarded in other forms. While script support is hard, especially since scripters are working to fix bugs on RS5..... we can reward groups who do the right thing by giving them "Gang Territory" where they hang out. Make people realize this by adding simple objects, an announcement of "Official Gang Territories" decided by HQ team, etc. Houses, a bar, even money for good roleplay attempts, it doesn't matter. As long as it gives them credit for their work. Let those who roleplay and encourage roleplay NOT ONLY with themselves but with new players, rival factions such as criminals RPing with cops and not just killing, and so on and so on.

#3 - More strict rules against deathmatchers, the opposite against roleplayers (Que)
The more we played and the years passed by - the more rulebreakers and deathmatchers came to be noticed. The amount of roleplay decreased and more of the scenarios ending up with a couple of kills turned out to be the main event of all scenes. The same individuals came online to do the same repeated things, and endless many times destroyed the roleplay with their trigger hungry attribute.

Instead of warning people for using swearing in roleplay, which is for us all the most smudgy rule of them all, focus on the ones who's actually harming the community. Who gives two shits about someone who is actually acting like an afro-American in Willowfield, using a couple of offensive words in a couple of sentences? It doesn't harm anyone. Neither does it offend anyone either. For those who can roleplay properly can understand the difference between roleplaying a role and being so much out of it as it goes. It is a huge difference.

Punish the repeated deathmatchers a lot harder, give the roleplayers more space to do what they adore the most. Continue to strive towards a better play in game by removing the dirt, not the opposite. It has been about Combat Shotguns and fast cars and luxury houses owned by individuals playing they have dyslexia for the last couple of years.



The list under is what we discussed during the chats, what we found important and is something that should be looked at, changed or even fixed to make Argonath a better place.

uno: Contribute positively.
dos: Official Groups should be rewarded by their RP, not only activity.
tres: Removal of the swearing in RP-rule.
cuatro: More character based roleplay. You is you, and a role is a role. Monster or gangster.
cinco: Punish the rulebreakers a lot harder. Deathmatchers the most.
seis: Give out Gang Territories. More focus on Gangs/Groups in total.
siete: Wake up the forum. Refresh it. Boost it up. Make it active.
ocho: Skip the ignorance, be open for discussions/changes/feedback. Negative or positive.
nueve: Have fun whilst roleplay. Enjoy your play.
diez: Do not give up on this community. Help out.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Que on March 10, 2014, 02:00:59 am
The chats we had really put up some good work and opinions. I love the fact that a lot of people contributed and this was the result of it. All above is something I support and find important. Good work, everyone.

I remember a case with 58th Street Conecta, where we asked Conroy for a boxing ring in East Los Santos. It was frequently used during the two days it was there and was absolutely something that boosted up positiveness in our group. Just such a simple act can give people who work hard a better day. It's lovely. And that's how it should be done to groups who remain active and continue to roleplay throughout the weeks.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: [SE]Dr_Pepper27 on March 10, 2014, 02:05:32 am
Honestly couldn't agree more. It's great to see veterans coming together to help restore Argonath. Great ideas by great people.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Cane on March 10, 2014, 02:08:36 am
Like it is stated here, the members of this community, especially the veterans, are speaking out in regards to these issues because we sincerely care about this community. Let's stop dismissing the problems and begin focusing on the solutions. Let's rebuild what used to be known as Argonath RPG.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Dolfagr on March 10, 2014, 02:13:09 am
Honest topic, speaks out for many of the Argonath veterans.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Allison on March 10, 2014, 02:18:36 am
I remember back in 2009 when most of everyone contributed their own part. Our love for this fine community can certainly be spread out to everyone here.

Beautiful statements in the topic. We need to make Argonath great again.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Petarda on March 10, 2014, 02:37:04 am
Couldn't agree more with #1, I see more insults from ateam than from players, the way they say "leave if you don't like, leave" is equal to GTFO.

Also if I may add:

You don't need to kidnap people everyday! -TheMoreYouKnow.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Solis on March 10, 2014, 03:39:37 am
Completely agree with everything, specially points #2 and #3. During my time playing on the server, specifically in 2009 and 2013, I've seen a decrease in role-play quantity and quality, which has been both because the role-players started leaving, and because there has been increasing acceptance to lower standards of role-play.

I'm not advocating for the style seen in RL:RP servers, but during my months of staying in MTA:SA I came across a great community of roleplayers, which showed that Argonath's scripts and vision can be perfectly mixed up with detailed and serious role-play. In my days on VC:MP I also came across a great community willing to roleplay anything at any opportunity, those were fun times. Furthermore, unlike what some people may think, this kind of role-play can be fun and creative.

The problem is that, during the course of time, such players have been shunned and ostracized into leaving the community, while the rulebreakers and non-roleplayers have been tolerated into staying. With an ever-increasing number of rule-breaks, along with an ever-decreasing quality and quantity of the role-play, any role-players that tried to come back and bring roleplay back would only find themselves disappointed and leaving once again since the problem was so great it couldn't be fixed by themselves.

Add to that how the focus for a lot of people went from having fun through interaction with people and RP, to having fun by getting luxurious sports cars, combat shotguns and automatic rifles, and go on a shooting spree with other criminals or the police at every opportunity.

Which is why the people being punished shouldn't be the ones trying to bring in more role-play, but the ones who are actually breaking the server's rule.

It's a vicious cicle. Great criminal/civilian role-players see how their RP isn't rewarded by the police officers who only spam "/m3", /s /gu" and proceed to shoot them within seconds, and give up. Great police role-players see how their RP isn't rewarded by the criminals whose only line of thought is "what you looking at, pig?" and/or "get out of here" before being blasted by combat shotguns, and give up. Great RP groups, whether police or criminals, see their efforts are only left in shambles without any reward besides normal players complimenting their role-play, and give up.

It's either to go on with the flow of the server, or leave.

Which is why, at this point, it is necessary to change how things have been going on for years. As I said, it isn't about turning Argonath RPG into a generic RL:RP server, MTA:SA and VC:MP proves we can increase the quantity and quality of role-play while still being Argonath RPG.

If people hated Argonath that much, they wouldn't still be here 5 years later trying to fix what's wrong.

This is my quote. Obviously if we hated or wanted to perjudicate this community, we wouldn't be here, even after being banned/community-banned in the past, trying to make a change for the good. We aren't just complaining, we are trying to take action on our own.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Aca on March 10, 2014, 09:09:11 am


#1 - Skip the ignorance (Que)
This is the most important point. Skip the ignorance. Quit disrespecting the scripters. Quit being a stubborn child because you lost your assets in game. Show some respect and keep your head up high. Argonath's positiveness is drowning, and YOU are letting it happen with the piss of yours. We all choosed to play on Argonath to have fun, not for people to harass or disrespect one another.

Also comments like:
"Why aren't you contributing instead of moaning?"
"If you don't like it here, then leave."

"If you got a complain, use [email protected]"

People should not leave. Every player here should be here. There will always be a bunch of nutshells, but we're speaking in general. Do not use such arguments. Them, if any, are not contributing. Keep up the positive tone. Work for a better community. People will always have different opinions, hence it is even more important to listen to them. Not all, not always, but still - keep it positive and be open minded. And lastly: If people hated Argonath that much, they wouldn't still be here 5 years later trying to fix what's wrong. Keep that in mind Argonathians.

Cheers.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Smith on March 10, 2014, 11:25:24 am
Nice nice!
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Thomas R on March 10, 2014, 11:29:43 am
Great ideas by great people.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Marcel on March 10, 2014, 11:30:47 am
You have given this a great amount of thought. I cannot agree more. Fully support this way of getting us back on our feet!
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Mr. Goobii on March 10, 2014, 11:37:38 am
The list is tight, long and detailed. I'll support we have to be stricter in the matter of punishing rulebreaker, maybe not minor offense, but those who repeatedly are destroying for others in terms of DM and trolling.

However, I think we have become more strict by the years. We have to remember to give players a second chance though. After all, we was all sometime SkinID 101(Newbie) once!  :rolleyes:
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Monty yate on March 10, 2014, 11:41:31 am
Agree,  will always be helping/serving/contributing the community in all possible manners..
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: AK47 on March 10, 2014, 11:45:46 am
Good reading.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: eymas on March 10, 2014, 12:00:14 pm
Well done.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Stivi on March 10, 2014, 01:22:09 pm
 :app:

Well done.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Whiteman on March 10, 2014, 04:04:35 pm
Good reading.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Vince on March 10, 2014, 04:19:22 pm
I see a lot of responses, which is good... but please instead of just saying "good job" try and contribute to the discussion.

Tell us what YOU think can be done to help get the community back to what it once was... what the issues are, and what you think we can do together to solve them issues...
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Kaze on March 10, 2014, 04:40:55 pm
Interesting topic, I am happy to see that some players are trying to make the best out of a shitty situation.

I stopped playing here not only because of the RS4 > RS5 transition but how ignorant the admin team/devs/hq or whatever you want to call it have become. However, I wont turn this into a negative topic.

Heres to a dramatic turnaround for Argonath RPG.  :bananav:
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Slavik on March 10, 2014, 05:32:01 pm
ignorant the admin team/devs/hq or whatever you want to call it have become.
Why you say that?
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Stivi on March 10, 2014, 06:38:20 pm
I agree with #3, but not only to deathmatchers. The a-team should be more strict in general.

Example:

Refusing to RP is not allowed, yet admins don't enforce people to RP if they don't want to.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Astaroth on March 10, 2014, 08:45:04 pm
Honest topic, speaks out for many of the Argonath veterans.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Vince on March 10, 2014, 10:13:03 pm
Why you say that?

I think he may be referring to everyone kind of trying to ignore that there are many issues on server... the whole "if you don't like it, GTFO!!!" attitude instead of trying to help fix things...

It is okay to realize there is a problem. Once you realize there are issues, you can start to work towards solutions!
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: .James on March 10, 2014, 10:18:04 pm
I hope you guys really improve Argonath, guys, and make it stand again.

Sadly, I got nothing to do rightnow, I'm inactive.  :rolleyes:



 :weed:

Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: JDC on March 10, 2014, 11:20:10 pm
I agree for the most part (and am in fact willing to help out with some aspects, as Vince has personally seen), with some exceptions such as this:

Quote
Also comments like:
"Why aren't you contributing instead of moaning?"
"If you don't like it here, then leave."
"If you got a complain, use [email protected]"

To say that these are "ignorant" or "completely unaccepting of criticism" is an over-simplistic way of analyzing things that distances us from what the real context of some cases may be.

"Why aren't you contributing instead of moaning?"
- I stand by this comment, actually. Look around you, the community is in need of rebuilding from all sides: players, admins, and developers/HQ. The statement is directed at moaners in order to make them think (or at least, give them a chance to think) on their actions; that rolling up your sleeves and getting to work in order to make things better will actually benefit Argonath, instead of moaning uselessly or parroting statements such as "RS5 is dead, SA:MP is dying, and you will fail!".

Why? It is de-moralizing and de-motivating for players who actually want to help rebuild when people keep going around and repeating negative thoughts that only discourage them from helping the community get back up. Put yourself in the shoes of the average player who wants to help rebuild (though you probably already are there) and see how it becomes harder to rebuild when you have these whining kids trying to impress on you the idea that you have already failed even before you started. The difference between "the community has fallen" and "how can we help it get back up?" is that while both are true, the second is aimed at reaching a SOLUTION.

"If you got a complain, use [email protected]"
- This is also a legitimate statement. Why? Complaint emails were created so that reports against admins can be settled without creating a lot of moaning. Most of you here know how this board has seen a shitload of moan topics in the past, and that we have/had players who report admins with the intention of causing a dramathon rather than making sure that the admin will not repeat his/her mistakes and perform better in helping our community's players.

Admins are not perfect and some will need a little push (read: reprimand/lessons) in order to be able to perform better, but some players cannot accept that fact (or simply want to whine because they got punished) and want to cause a spectacle where the goal is to destroy the admin('s character) and/or moan, rather than giving constructive criticism and helping correct the admin's mistakes. You've seen from the countless anti-admin moan topics and Let's Get Real topics how people love to create a circus, and the complaint emails help avoid just that.

"If you don't like it here, then leave."
- This one, on the other hand, is overused, especially if it is applied to any form of criticism directed at this community. Accepting constructive criticism (emphasis on "CONSTRUCTIVE") is key to having a healthy administration (in fact, this holds true for ALL sides to an extent) that can correct its mistakes and improve each performance; even a diamond has to be cut plenty of times before it can reflect light in its perfect and beautiful manner.

However, it should be kept in place for the immature who wish to do nothing but disrespect our players/admins/HQ and grief everyone else, those who keep sticking around to attack the server so as to rob us of our much-wanted playing/relaxing time, those who harass us by spreading our RL information, and other such assholes. (sorry, not sorry) In case of those who are just discontent with the actions of an admin/s, they should try and reach a constructive solution instead of pointing fingers and yelling "ignorant". After all, when an admin fixes his/her mistakes and performs even better, everyone benefits. (except the banned people who have no intention of letting us play peacefully)

I hope you include clarifications such as the ones above in order to avoid an over-simplistic (and resultantly, flawed) portrayal of the three statements.



Before anyone asks what I am doing to help improve Argonath, look at the topic in my signature.

I am not bragging, but rather showing that I am trying to help by contributing in my own way. I encourage you to do the same, to find out what you are best at and use it to help this community. The more people working together to help, the faster we can rebuild.

The action will not stop at talking and agreeing; you have to get to work too. Now let's do that, shall we?
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Archie on March 10, 2014, 11:26:02 pm
I agree for the most part (and am in fact willing to help out with some aspects, as Vince has personally seen), with some exceptions such as this:

To say that these are "ignorant" or "completely unaccepting of criticism" is an over-simplistic way of analyzing things that distances us from what the real context of some cases may be.

"Why aren't you contributing instead of moaning?"
- I stand by this comment, actually. Look around you, the community is in need of rebuilding from all sides: players, admins, and developers/HQ. The statement is directed at moaners in order to make them think (or at least, give them a chance to think) on their actions; that rolling up your sleeves and getting to work in order to make things better will actually benefit Argonath, instead of moaning uselessly or parroting statements such as "RS5 is dead, SA:MP is dying, and you will fail!".

Why? It is de-moralizing and de-motivating for players who actually want to help rebuild when people keep going around and repeating negative thoughts that only discourage them from helping the community get back up. Put yourself in the shoes of the average player who wants to help rebuild (though you probably already are there) and see how it becomes harder to rebuild when you have these whining kids trying to impress on you the idea that you have already failed even before you started. The difference between "the community has fallen" and "how can we help it get back up?" is that while both are true, the second is aimed at reaching a SOLUTION.

"If you got a complain, use [email protected]"
- This is also a legitimate statement. Why? Complaint emails were created so that reports against admins can be settled without creating a lot of moaning. Most of you here know how this board has seen a shitload of moan topics in the past, and that we have/had players who report admins with the intention of causing a dramathon rather than making sure that the admin will not repeat his/her mistakes and perform better in helping our community's players.

Admins are not perfect and some will need a little push (read: reprimand/lessons) in order to be able to perform better, but some players cannot accept that fact (or simply want to whine because they got punished) and want to cause a spectacle where the goal is to destroy the admin('s character) and/or moan, rather than giving constructive criticism and helping correct the admin's mistakes. You've seen from the countless anti-admin moan topics and Let's Get Real topics how people love to create a circus, and the complaint emails help avoid just that.

"If you don't like it here, then leave."
- This one, on the other hand, is overused, especially if it is applied to any form of criticism directed at this community. Accepting constructive criticism (emphasis on "CONSTRUCTIVE") is key to having a healthy administration (in fact, this holds true for ALL sides to an extent) that can correct its mistakes and improve each performance; even a diamond has to be cut plenty of times before it can reflect light in its perfect and beautiful manner.

However, it should be kept in place for the immature who wish to do nothing but disrespect our players/admins/HQ and grief everyone else, those who keep sticking around to attack the server so as to rob us of our much-wanted playing/relaxing time, those who harass us by spreading our RL information, and other such assholes. (sorry, not sorry) In case of those who are just discontent with the actions of an admin/s, they should try and reach a constructive solution instead of pointing fingers and yelling "ignorant". After all, when an admin fixes his/her mistakes and performs even better, everyone benefits. (except the banned people who have no intention of letting us play peacefully)

I hope you include clarifications such as the ones above in order to avoid an over-simplistic (and resultantly, flawed) portrayal of the three statements.



Before anyone asks what I am doing to help improve Argonath, look at the topic in my signature.

I am not bragging, but rather showing that I am trying to help by contributing in my own way. I encourage you to do the same, to find out what you are best at and use it to help this community. The more people working together to help, the faster we can rebuild.

The action will not stop at talking and agreeing; you have to get to work too. Now let's do that, shall we?

Yeah, he's right. Very sensibly.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Kaze on March 11, 2014, 07:13:38 pm
Why you say that?

It is fairly obvious to how the community reacted to the RS4 to RS5 transition. Despite the 'verbal' opinions being thrown around, Frank Hawk's topic which included a poll suggested that the majority of the players want RS4 back. So already you have the reactions and the statistics and yet again the ''team'' believe they are still correct with the transition. There is the ignorance.



If you want to remove RS5 from the equation then I can easily say that admins often set their own rules when it comes to punishing players, too trigger happy. What's funny is that the admins actually use the banana command to indicate that their decision was correct. Why cant you all be like Dellstorm? Shake my head..
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Umut on March 11, 2014, 07:17:30 pm
This topic was made in combination with mainly Que
(http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/mumutti/Stuff/kek.png)
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: JDC on March 11, 2014, 07:25:51 pm
It is fairly obvious to how the community reacted to the RS4 to RS5 transition. Despite the 'verbal' opinions being thrown around, Frank Hawk's topic which included a poll suggested that the majority of the players want RS4 back. So already you have the reactions and the statistics and yet again the ''team'' believe they are still correct with the transition. There is the ignorance.

The majority of players who voted in the poll do not always make the best decisions. Look at the past Oscars, where cheating escalated year by year to the point where the 2012 Oscars were voided.

If you want to remove RS5 from the equation then I can easily say that admins often set their own rules when it comes to punishing players, too trigger happy. What's funny is that the admins actually use the banana command to indicate that their decision was correct. Why cant you all be like Dellstorm? Shake my head..

I won't be surprised if you're someone who gets punished by admins a lot.

Admins who abuse their powers are secretly warned (not made public so as not to try and satisfy anti-admin player's egos, or engage in public shaming) or removed after valid complaints are sent. If you want more admins who conform to the ideal you possess of someone being kind and having patience that players can abuse and exploit, then you're just asking for a weaker community. In fact, admins need to be more strict.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Slavik on March 11, 2014, 08:08:58 pm
So already you have the reactions and the statistics and yet again the ''team'' believe they are still correct with the transition. There is the ignorance.
The changes have to be made sooner or later.
Rs4 was good, but if you spend enough time on Rs5, you'll understand that it's even better than Rs4.

If you want to remove RS5 from the equation then I can easily say that admins often set their own rules when it comes to punishing players, too trigger happy. What's funny is that the admins actually use the banana command to indicate that their decision was correct. Why cant you all be like Dellstorm? Shake my head..
As for this, if you think that admins abuse their power, please do report them. 
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Oliver on March 11, 2014, 09:10:02 pm
I figured I'd try RS5 out for myself since I'd heard a lot about it from people who were around when it first launched, and most of what I heard was criticism. I hadn't heard anything good about it so I was a bit skeptical - after all, people do tend to throw a shit-fit when they lose their e-property and e-money.

I was greeted by something that wasn't neither good or bad - just completely soulless. I did the same thing I did when I first started playing on Argonath - went for the nearest Police Department to start protecting the community and righting wrongs. The "exam" literally felt like something out of a cops'n'robbers server - there was no player interaction whatsoever, you just had to type in answers to pitifully easy questions and do two "tasks" that are completely irrelevant to the server - shoot at an object and drive a police car as fast as you can on empty streets. If emulating PvE combat and a depopulated server is what the brainchildren behind that "exam" were aspiring for, then they did a splendid job indeed.

Anyways, I got done with that, got my badge and gun, discovered that there's an arbitrary /rearm command that is somehow better than the previous system, hit tab and squealed with glee after seeing that literally two thirds of the server had blue names. No criminals were online, of course, but I can't really complain about that since it's only been three months since the scripts released, so naturally no one has any extra dough to go on rampages yet.

Then I tried medic duty and it was pretty nice, I suppose. Made myself 150 dollars. Then I got stuck in a wall at Mordor and quit playing.

I wrote it from the perspective of a complete newbie to this server, trying to remain as objective as possible. If my first impressions are anything to go by, then there really isn't anything to draw new people in - Argonath simply doesn't stand out from the crowd anymore. It's not good or bad, it's simply bland, something for old-time veterans to play and reminisce about times that are never coming back, with all of their achievements (properties, money, /whenmade date) wiped away.

P.S. The new speedometer goes against all laws of aesthetics. The old one looked a lot neater.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Que on March 12, 2014, 12:55:39 am
(http://i1127.photobucket.com/albums/l625/mumutti/Stopped-reading-there.jpg~original)
Hey, Umuthan. Long time since.  :)
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Kaze on March 13, 2014, 09:44:42 am
The majority of players who voted in the poll do not always make the best decisions. Look at the past Oscars, where cheating escalated year by year to the point where the 2012 Oscars were voided.

I won't be surprised if you're someone who gets punished by admins a lot.

Admins who abuse their powers are secretly warned (not made public so as not to try and satisfy anti-admin player's egos, or engage in public shaming) or removed after valid complaints are sent. If you want more admins who conform to the ideal you possess of someone being kind and having patience that players can abuse and exploit, then you're just asking for a weaker community. In fact, admins need to be more strict.

Cheating for the Oscars is pretty much banter whereas fucking around with a game mode which affected the community is not banter.

Surprisingly enough, I only seem to get admin punishments in Argonath RPG. Admins need to be more strict? Fuck off, its already enough they are making rules on the spot. '/p chat talking about football'
''REDNAME: GUYS STOP TALKING ABOUT FOOTBALL''.  Is there a rule that we cant talk on /p?

I actually have a great time with Dellstorm, I do not ''exploit'' him at all. He is the fairest admin within the community. Weaker community? No, its just a matter of recruiting players which have the 'firm but fair' trait.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Cyril on March 13, 2014, 10:57:30 am
Cheating for the Oscars is pretty much banter whereas f**king around with a game mode which affected the community is not banter.

Surprisingly enough, I only seem to get admin punishments in Argonath RPG. Admins need to be more strict? Fuck off, its already enough they are making rules on the spot. '/p chat talking about football'
''REDNAME: GUYS STOP TALKING ABOUT FOOTBALL''.  Is there a rule that we cant talk on /p?

I actually have a great time with Dellstorm, I do not ''exploit'' him at all. He is the fairest admin within the community. Weaker community? No, its just a matter of recruiting players which have the 'firm but fair' trait.

(http://s3.amazonaws.com/stripgenerator/strip/10/57/27/00/00/full.png)
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Chase on March 13, 2014, 12:44:38 pm



Also comments like:
"Why aren't you contributing instead of moaning?"
"If you don't like it here, then leave."

"If you got a complain, use [email protected]"

People should not leave. Every player here should be here. There will always be a bunch of nutshells, but we're speaking in general. Do not use such arguments. Them, if any, are not contributing. Keep up the positive tone. Work for a better community. People will always have different opinions, hence it is even more important to listen to them. Not all, not always, but still - keep it positive and be open minded. And lastly: If people hated Argonath that much, they wouldn't still be here 5 years later trying to fix what's wrong. Keep that in mind Argonathians.


I will admit that I have over used some of those comments out of frustration of repeated shit. I do want to make clear that while many people shouldn't leave, there are those who should because of point number #3.

My ideology on this is that there are certain people you can "train" and "fix" to not rulebreak, to not focus on killing, and to DO engage in roleplay acts that do not either hinder everyone else or make the server look like TDM.

And of course there's people who you cannot, after many attempts.

Many of these people have been banned repeatedly and continue to get unbanned through constant broken promises. And there are many of these people who do not get banned often, but continue their acts from admin action by disguising it as roleplay.

Those are the people IMHO who need to take it upon themselves to leave if management wont take action to force them out... for good.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Devin on March 13, 2014, 03:04:38 pm
Fortunately the systems and way problematic players are handled has been changed since RS4, players will not be given chance after chance to prove they have changed.
If they are not able to follow the rules they will be out for good. There is no patience for those that refuse to learn or understand what they are doing wrong.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: JDC on March 13, 2014, 08:55:00 pm
Cheating for the Oscars is pretty much banter whereas f**king around with a game mode which affected the community is not banter.

Not entirely true. The Oscars are one of the most visible and tangible ways of players recognizing each other's achievements and contributions to the server, and reflect our players' ethics. If someone is willing to use dirty tactics to elevate themselves while undermining more deserving players, I would not expect them to have a trustworthy judgment. Sadly, we have no shortage of those kind of players.

If you have any actual proper experience with research IRL, then you will know that dangling statistics and raw numbers is not always the best way to address a problem, (hint: qualitative vs. quantitative) especially when a substantial amount of players participating in a poll analyze things in very superficial ways.

Surprisingly enough, I only seem to get admin punishments in Argonath RPG. Admins need to be more strict? Fuck off, its already enough they are making rules on the spot. '/p chat talking about football'
''REDNAME: GUYS STOP TALKING ABOUT FOOTBALL''.  Is there a rule that we cant talk on /p?

Again, another very simplistic observation with a very limited context. If you don't have a worldview biased against admins, then you will know that you are pretty much free to talk about any topic as long as you stay within proper bounds and don't escalate the discussion into a dangerous area. The fact that I can talk about almost anything on server (as I know how to restrain myself properly) proves your implication false.

Also, you omit the fact that Argonath is one of the few communities where admins are not chosen because of reliability and maturity, rather than on the basis of VIP, clan membership, closeness to community owners/leaders, or ability to spend RL money to buy features on an online game.

I actually have a great time with Dellstorm, I do not ''exploit'' him at all. He is the fairest admin within the community. Weaker community? No, its just a matter of recruiting players which have the 'firm but fair' trait.

Dellstorm may appear easy and approachable to talk to, but the question is does he actively and effectively suppress players who seek to sow discord in the community? Aragorn himself personally confided to me that he is sick of players who abuse Gandalf's kindness, like repeatedly-banned players who approach "kinder" admins and promise to change, only to go back to their shitty ways after, until they get banned again.

This is not to point fingers or label Dell as a bad admin, and I myself know Dell as a good friend. My point here is that just because someone does not conform to your expectations, that does not mean they are a bad admin; there are many different styles of carrying out admin work, from those who prefer the diplomatic approach first to those who won't take shit from any rulebreakers at all. Proof that our admin team keeps restraints on its staff to a minimum (aside from given responsibilities such as exemplifying rule-abidingness) and allows them to serve the community at their full potential regardless of personality once they pass the standards, rather than being a dogmatic body.

The community is in a vulnerable state now. Because of that, we need a stricter admin team; one that will not allow moaners and shitters to get away with griefing payers who are actually giving effort to help rebuild SA:MP. If you find yourself getting punishments from admins a lot, then you should look within yourself instead of pointing fingers at admins and saying they are the problem.

P.S: Also, everything Chase said.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Eps_Smalls on March 13, 2014, 09:00:35 pm
Can't agree more with you.

With this too lol:

Couldn't agree more with #1, I see more insults from ateam than from players, the way they say "leave if you don't like, leave" is equal to GTFO.

Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Devin on March 13, 2014, 09:19:33 pm
Can't agree more with you.

With this too lol:
Couldn't agree more with #1, I see more insults from ateam than from players, the way they say "leave if you don't like, leave" is equal to GTFO.

I could go along Aragorns route and simply say: Fuck off you ungrateful twat.

However I could not be bothered to respond to negativity with negativity as it won't lead to anything positive;
What I can say is if you don't appreciate the way the administrators speak to you then send an email as I check them at least twice a day and deal with them on the day I receive them.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: JDC on March 13, 2014, 09:21:46 pm
This topic has good intentions despite it needing some smoothening out. Let's not let it get maneuvered by problematic, anti-admin players into another Players vs. Admins topic. (Yes, you know who you are and I am addressing this to you)

Admins are here to help. If you have problems with most of them, then take a good, long look at the mirror.

To quote Boromir: If you don't trust our helpers, leave. Unless an admin is abusing his power, there is no reason for you to portray him in a bad light.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Petarda on March 13, 2014, 09:23:54 pm


I could go along Aragorns route and simply say: Fuck off you ungrateful twat.

does that guy have tourette syndrome, all I heard about him was that he just insulted people and banned them.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: JDC on March 13, 2014, 09:30:45 pm
does that guy have tourette syndrome, all I heard about him was that he just insulted people and banned them.

In behalf of all loyal Argonath veterans, I will state that the first letter of your name should have been an "R". Maybe you should change it that way, it suits you more.

Aragorn was one of the best leaders this community had and took no shit from anyone who wanted to cause trouble here. His rough language was one of his signature traits, but he got things done.

Also, when he attempted to resign permanently, players from all factions banded together and called for his return. Not like anyone would want you to stay.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: aleksandar_gojkovic on March 13, 2014, 09:37:03 pm
I am here for 3 years, and i want to stay for 3 more. This topic really is great, and i support what vince said. Let's get this server back on top!
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Petarda on March 13, 2014, 09:38:58 pm
In behalf of all loyal Argonath veterans, I will state that the first letter of your name should have been an "R". Maybe you should change it that way, it suits you more.
try harder
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Lustigkurre on March 13, 2014, 10:01:15 pm
Just get some money rolling ingame and the server will slowly rise again. As much as it's up to the players to work as fireman to get money, it's also up to admin team to organize events with prizes, paydays etc. to get started.

I've been ingame much lately and I have seen some positive things going on with a couple events and paydays. I think it can get even better though.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Que on March 13, 2014, 10:22:49 pm
Giving out paydays or having events in large amounts will just start the endless circle with people purchasing big houses, luxury cars and here we go again with the same issues as earlier. I suggest to hand out cash to the already active groups, who's into roleplaying and who wants to contribute. Let them earn some cash by doing parties, late night bistros, one vs one fight events or w.e. to get people involved and enjoy amusement.

There's faar more alternatives to give out cash to people who's trying to make Argonath a better roleplay server. Doesn't matter if it's a criminal activity or the opposite - the price should be the same. Credit should be given. Money, objects, items. Doesn't matter. The point with this topic was to start something that could lead to something much better. The next step should be to make something serious about it. Look into stuff and actually go from there. Get a group of high qualified individuals who has prominent ideas, work it out and make it reality for us all.

We are more than willing to continue what we started with this topic. Give us a go and we will fly.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Stivi on March 13, 2014, 10:40:30 pm
I check them at least twice a day and deal with them on the day I receive them.
Not true. Two in the same day, none dealt with.



Just get some money rolling ingame and the server will slowly rise again. As much as it's up to the players to work as fireman to get money, it's also up to admin team to organize events with prizes, paydays etc. to get started.

I've been ingame much lately and I have seen some positive things going on with a couple events and paydays. I think it can get even better though.
Most of the people have loans. As soon as they pay them they will have to work again.



One literally said he had no time to RP so he attempted to knife me and accidentally knifed another one. No one gave a single fuck. RP should be rewarded, and not with the joy of having to be part of a RP, but some e-visual stuff. Yeah, might work.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: AK47 on March 14, 2014, 01:55:05 am
I do agree on the point that people who actually roleplay should get rewarded.

But money isn't everything either. As stated, people who actually does something ingame instead of running around knifing people should be given cred, just those small things can make you happy.

Earlier today I was in a carchase with several officers, and in the end I crashed and started running and the officers did not open fire, instead they ran after me yelling "STOP!!". After a while they managed to slap me and I did /hurt 1 and got arrested. And when I was in jail they told me "Wow, haven't seen this kind of roleplay in a while, keep it up". And that made me really happy. Just those small words.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: JDC on March 14, 2014, 02:09:35 am
Not true. Two in the same day, none dealt with.

If you want info on complaint info process for complaints sent against:

Just because a complaint has been examined and "dealt with", that does not immediately mean the admin will be punished or removed. The complaint may be dismissed for one or more of the following reasons:

- The player did not actually commit a violation.
- The complaint was made purely with the intention of maligning /destroying the player.
- The complaint was, simply put, a mere "moan complaint" rather than a valid one.

If the complaint is valid, then one or two of the following is/are bound to happen:

- The player will be spoken to by the HQ, and a separate arrangement may be settled [diplomatically]. Punishments are not needed in all cases.
- The complaint may not be heavy enough to warrant a separate punishment in itself, but will be kept as reference material for future complaints that do.
- A warning may be issued to the player from the HQ.
- Player will be remotely punished or placed on the list of pending punishments for admins to deal with.

Most importantly, just because a complaint has been dealt with, it does not mean you will be notified. The aim of the complaint email is to help uphold community rules, rather than satisfy the egos of players who just want to see others punished and/or shamed.

As someone previously responsible for direct oversight of admins, let me enlighten you on the process.

Just because a complaint has been examined and "dealt with", that does not immediately mean the admin will be punished or removed. The complaint may be dismissed for one or more of the following reasons:

- The admin did not actually abuse his power.
- The complaint was made purely with the intention of maligning /destroying the admin.
- The complaint was made out of anger after the complainant received a valid punishment from the admin.
- The complaint was, simply put, a mere "moan complaint" rather than a valid one.

If the complaint is valid, then one or two of the following is/are bound to happen:

- The admin will be spoken to by HQ to get his side of things, perhaps except for cases where the evidence explains itself very clearly.
- The admin will be given a warning to correct their mistake/s and improve their performance.
- The admin will be demoted, suspended, or removed.

Most importantly, just because a complaint has been dealt with, it does not mean you will be notified. Sanctions upon admins are between the admin/s and HQ (except in serious cases such as dangerous, rogue admins) as the aim is to improve the performance of admins and correct their mistakes, rather than to satisfy the egos of players who want to see admins punished and/or shamed.



I do agree on the point that people who actually roleplay should get rewarded.

This. Roleplay should be a norm, rather than something done for rewards.

It would be beneficial though, to give rewards to players who consistently contribute and serve as model examples for other players, whether it be through (teaching others to) roleplay and/or other means.

After all, while rewards should not be spammed for things that are a given, it wouldn't hurt to reward those who do their best to help the server.

P.S: I've noticed the focus is more on individuals roleplaying rather than encouraging those who do, and those who have good knowledge of it, to pass what they know on to others. It would be best if we could tackle it from both angles instead.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Devin on March 14, 2014, 10:33:45 am
I do agree on the point that people who actually roleplay should get rewarded.

Fortunately groups that are able to hold their own are awarded in certain ways: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=103851.0
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Que on March 14, 2014, 03:48:32 pm
Fortunately groups that are able to hold their own are awarded in certain ways: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=103851.0
Good topic. Does it include giving out objects, such as boxing rings, a couple of benches and so on as well? Or is it only aimed for buildings and HQs? I don't see how a HQ would benefit a street gang for example.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Devin on March 14, 2014, 04:06:22 pm
Good topic. Does it include giving out objects, such as boxing rings, a couple of benches and so on as well? Or is it only aimed for buildings and HQs? I don't see how a HQ would benefit a street gang for example.

I am sure we could work something out because of course, a gang doesn't really need a massive HQ but could make use of other items like that.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Que on March 14, 2014, 05:04:51 pm
I am sure we could work something out because of course, a gang doesn't really need a massive HQ but could make use of other items like that.
Yeah, it is pretty simple really. I remember we always wanted a BBQ-place (a grill, couple of benches and a boxing ring) in El Corona when we were active at most. It isn't much of a job, but yet getting multiple players to enjoy the game even more. So if we could work something out - that's an enormous step against something better. For sure.
Title: Re: Chapter one - The Veterans Edition
Post by: Manas on March 14, 2014, 05:48:30 pm
Fortunately groups that are able to hold their own are awarded in certain ways: http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=103851.0

The rewarding system is good . Like Recognised in forums and IG and an HQ for free. I ain't disagreeing with it but would it have been better if the gangs were rewarded areas? I still didn't understand the territories and GW system promised in RS5. Could you throw some light on it? The /help IG Doesn't give required info about the system. If it has to be updated, could you provide me a link where i can read about it?

Regarding the topic, i totally agree with it.
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