Argonath RPG - A World of its own
GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: stormeus on November 16, 2014, 12:29:26 am
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Right, so the previous thread (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=108856.msg1725977#msg1725977) got locked, unlocked, and locked again, so here it is. Again.
I bet everyone is absolutely ecstatic about this. :uhm:
Anyway here are the main points recapped for continued discussion that does not moan about specific staff nor point fingers between staff and players.
Double Standards
Points
- Staff members tend to be protective of specific groups, particularly any groups they are members of.
- Consequently the bias in group protection caused by their perspective as group members leads to them punishing enemies of said group more frequently than usual.
- Staff have no clear guidelines for handling situations and are supposed to act with their own judgement.
- Players perceive staff as not being held to a higher standard of operating within the rules.
Proposed Solutions
- Revision of rules to be more clear in wording and to encompass more situations
- Posting of all rules (incl. SAPD/FBI operations) in a public forum for everyone to see what is currently going on.
- Admins require more immediate and harsher punishments for infractions.
- ???
Counterpoints
- Human nature is to be closer to people you are affiliated with; bias is unavoidable.
- Said bias is consequently counteracted by a balance between cop/criminal admins and a number of admins spread across groups.
- What exactly is a double standard and how to fix it is otherwise dubious and has not been explained.
Transparency
Points
- [email protected] is completely opaque and considered to not be taken seriously due to lack of feedback.
- In-game reports sometimes feel like they are ignored due to lack of moderator feedback to the user.
Proposed Solutions
- A way of reporting staff through means other than email. (already under consideration according to Devin)
- Increase moderator feedback with in-game reports.
- Publish transparent guidelines for staff in a public forum
Counterpoints
- Not possible to please everyone in the case of a report: not taking action and informing the reporting player leads to the reporting player moaning about admins. Taking action leads to the reportee moaning about admins.
- Staff are not operating off of a readily made handbook and therefore there are no guidelines to publish.
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I liked how you set everything out, makes it easier for everyone to understand what trouble we are going through in the HQ department. Fingers crossed Devin does something about this.
Another problem is that SOME admins ban players for something that is not a rulebreak. A joke is a joke even if it is misunderstood by SOME admins. It does not say on the rules anywhere that I can get banned for a joke. In addition, admins should also ban with a proper reason. By this I mean instead of banning someone for 'Same goes for you..' you would ban them for 'Joking'
I would also like to add the mentality that some admins have in the unban request section. Even when the victim is right, the HQ basically bullys the victim into a corner, forcing them to apologize in order to get unbanned even if the victim is right. That's unacceptable. Not only is that an issue, the review dates are beginning to be a joke. I trust everyone in this community read my unban requests couple weeks back. 4 months for a joke, are you out of your f**king mind?
Some admins are also stubborn, I guarantee you this time tomorrow this topic will be locked because admins are too stubborn to realise their mistakes. :)
To conclude this topic, making these topics wont change a thing. But the HQ need a dose of reality.
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i'm glad you made this and i support the solution part as a good idea to start solving the problem of double standards, although the double standards are not only preset in the relations between groups where staff is biased, but anyways that is a nice way to begin.
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Maybe giving some parameters that describes which kind of punishment deserves the different types of rules breaking, to give more transparency on the punishment given. Anyway I don't think this is a very good idea, is just one I had; I'm sure there are better ones over there.
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Kaze's post.
Your post is a prime example of why topics get locked that others want to discuss without needing to bash others. Do the bashing somewhere else not in this board or anywhere on the forum to be honest. But I will highlight a few points from your post since you feel like you want a answer.
Joking or not with whatever you did if seen serious enough you can still be punished for it, just like if you were to say "YO ADMINS I GOT AIMBOT XD" I'd ban someone for it even if they thought it was hilarious to say it out in public as a joke. Some people just take joking around to far. (not referring to you specifically)
Unbans on other players don't actually concern other players except the banning staff members, HQ and the banned player. I've never seen bullying of someone to have them admit to their mistakes. If we were in the wrong we'll admit it and apologize on their topic and unban. (I recently did so on a false ban evading case)
Review dates are set by the handling HQ member, I personally give larger review periods to regular who have a somewhat expansive punishment history. In most cases I'd deny them from coming back since leniency was something that was given ALOT in RS4 to player's of regular playing status.
I could say the same for player's needing a dose of reality but I'm not going to derail the topic like the last one.
Double Standards
Points
- Staff members tend to be protective of specific groups, particularly any groups they are members of.
- Consequently the bias in group protection caused by their perspective as group members leads to them punishing enemies of said group more frequently than usual.
- Staff have no clear guidelines for handling situations and are supposed to act with their own judgement.
- Players perceive staff as not being held to a higher standard of operating within the rules.
1. Report Staff who are protecting one group from punishment when they deserve it just as much.
3. We have something to go just not going to publish it, but we can also use our own heads and see how to deal with current situation.
4. Staff who aren't operating within the rules again can be reported they aren't immune from punishment. Believe it or not we do punish staff members and has happened quite a few times these past months.
Transparency
Points
- [email protected] is completely opaque and considered to not be taken seriously due to lack of feedback.
- In-game reports sometimes feel like they are ignored due to lack of moderator feedback to the user.
1. Read everyday by those who can access, matters discussed from sent emails done through our Skype group on what action to take if any. We do get a hefty amount of bullshit emails that are sent in just to have a moan about something unrelated.
2. Any reports accepted in-game by staff, players are sent a message to inform that staff are looking into it. Sure we can try get staff to direct a PM once report is dealt with (some do this already) just because no punishment was made public don't mean that he/she wasn't dealt with. We don't need to punish player's with commands all the time.
Either keep on topic without trying to have a pot shot at others or this topic will go same way as the other.
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Disclaimer - I have not representing SA:MP Admin team in anyway. I am just giving my own opinion on this. And I acknowledge the fact that there are things you can see but we can't just like things that we can see and you can't.
Maybe giving some parameters that describes which kind of punishment deserves the different types of rules breaking, to give more transparency on the punishment given. Anyway I don't think this is a very good idea, is just one I had; I'm sure there are better ones over there.
That's not possible.
Setting those parameters would mean we give the same punishments to
1. new players who know little about the server and have no punishment history.
2. new players who know little about the server but have a long punishment list already.
3. regulars who know about the server but have no punishment history.
4. regulars who know about the server but have long punishment history.
5. veterans who have complete knowledge of the server and its rules but have little to no punishment history
6. veterans who have complete knowledge of the server but just come to f**k around and have a massive giant ass punishment history.
See how long I made this list? That's not it. It will be massive if such a parameter is created. That is why admins are instructed to act on their own when giving punishments, not follow a set of guidelines. We are not robots, we can have a mind of our own, we can think what would be appropriate for whom. Having such a list would make our work much easier, but would annoy the shit out of everyone and you would complain that punishments are inappropriate.
Sure, obviously there are going to be some mistakes. But it's going to be better than acting like robots right?
Humans being an emotion being will obviously be biased. That's why we (or atleast I) can actually ask other admins to take actions when the reported person is connected to us. If I happen to take the only (available) admin online, and I take a report on someone I personally know, I try to gather as much feedback from other admins or HQ (over Skype) to take the best action possible. And from what I have seen, plenty of admins have had to punish their own group members. If they don't do that, instead of publicly bashing them and enraging yourself and them, talking to them in private or about them to HQ or reporting them would be much more productive.
Just clearing it out that staff members are NOT protective of any specific groups, its just that some groups rulebreak more than other groups. Some people say there are some admins who are completely unbiased, that would mean that the members these "protected" (as you call them) groups would be punished as much if they were really rulebreaking as much as members of other groups but the others groups are still punished more. Do the thinking.
If an admin really uses their commands to protect their group members, they should be reported and strictly punished if needed. I really hope that people don't think that HQ doesn't care about legit reports about admins sent to [email protected], cause that thought is absolutely ridiculous.
"•Staff have no clear guidelines for handling situations and are supposed to act with their own judgement."
That IS the guideline. We are not a bunch of robots, there needs to be diversity in the admin team. We take actions on how we think would be appropriate not "he's deathmatching? tempban." "he's driving over people? jail."
If we think it would be appropriate to talk with the person first, we do it. If we think it's necessary to punish the person, we do it. There would be a lot more (5x more?) red text on the screen if we were to follow a set of guidelines for handling situations.
"•Players perceive staff as not being held to a higher standard of operating within the rules."
I am not exactly sure what you mean by this but admins are taken because they follow the server rules very strictly, and those who fail to do that are spoken to and actions are taken against them if needed. I really hope you don't think reports on admins are ignored.
"•In-game reports sometimes feel like they are ignored due to lack of moderator feedback to the user."
We are not obliged to tell everything we do. Just recently I got a report and I dealt with the reported the player. I was immediately approached by the reporter if I punished the reported person. My reply was I took appropriate actions on that player. Reporter's reply? "I don't see any punishments?". Some players are absolutely determined to get the other people punished publicly. We can't tell everyone everything every time, we may be busy with something else.
There are punishments that you can't see at all, and if you are near them you can only guess that they were punished.
That's not it, we are not obliged to punish every guy rulebreaking. Sometimes we think that a simple chat with the guy would be a lot more productive. Trust me, people have managed to fix hackers by simply talking to them.
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We need rules to be made public, to everyone. Even the /help rules to be updated. Currently, people fight over "if u escape you must leave the vehicle" a lot. "pigs" thingy. And a lot more.
Cops don't get punished the same as civilians/criminals. Even if they do things much worse than a criminal.
Cops get cop-banned for DMing. Civilians get temp-banned for DMing.
TBH, I don't have a problem with /reporting a moderator/admin if there is a manager IG. I don't need to go write a long ass e-mail just for that. The e-mail is not even transparent, btw.
Making use of the "Developers answer" topic is much better. Multiple times I have posted my situation there, that actually happened and never got a reply. I'm not supposed to be an admin to know the result. But nor am I, and I'm not the only one, supposed to comply with an admin without knowing wtf I did wrong.
I do comply, then I use that topic. Well, used to, no one looks at it anymore.
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We need rules to be made public, to everyone. Even the /help rules to be updated. Currently, people fight over "if u escape you must leave the vehicle" a lot. "pigs" thingy. And a lot more.
Cops don't get punished the same as civilians/criminals. Even if they do things much worse than a criminal.
Cops get cop-banned for DMing. Civilians get temp-banned for DMing.
TBH, I don't have a problem with /reporting a moderator/admin if there is a manager IG. I don't need to go write a long ass e-mail just for that. The e-mail is not even transparent, btw.
Making use of the "Developers answer" topic is much better. Multiple times I have posted my situation there, that actually happened and never got a reply. I'm not supposed to be an admin to know the result. But nor am I, and I'm not the only one, supposed to comply with an admin without knowing wtf I did wrong.
I do comply, then I use that topic. Well, used to, no one looks at it anymore.
The unwritten rules are just the derivatives of the rules written in /rules. If one is supposed to write all of them including the derivatives, the list is going to be huge. And therefore the new players won't even bother to read them. A few lines is going to be a lot easier than a paragraph.
The cop getting copbanned for dming and civilians getting tbanned for dming has definitely changed. I don't see it happen nowadays. A copban is to remove the right of a player to become a cop if he abuses his rights, and it should be followed by a administrative punishment if needed.
As for reporting an admin, no other way than [email protected]. /report is only supposed to be used for reporting players for doing something wrong. If an admin misbehaves, he should be reported at [email protected]. It won't matter if you have a problem with it or not, but if you want your report to be taken into consideration, send the email.
When an admin tells you something, you comply; even if its wrong. After that, you can contact someone from HQ and ask them if it was right or wrong and the HQ will contact the admin if needed.
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Unbans on other players don't actually concern other players except the banning staff members, HQ and the banned player. I've never seen bullying of someone to have them admit to their mistakes. If we were in the wrong we'll admit it and apologize on their topic and unban. (I recently did so on a false ban evading case)
80 percent of all unban requests results in a forced apology to be unbanned. But like you said..
Either keep on topic without trying to have a pot shot at others or this topic will go same way as the other.
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So we cant have a huge rule list because new players wouldn't read them.
But we are still being said that we have no common sense when we ask about rules and such...
Well I may be a complete idiot afterall, But I've been here for a while, and I know that this community has been running for 8 years... 8 years, that's almost half my life.
And we ask in 2014 for a topic with every rule arround here, and we are told that it is common sense and that new players wouldn't bother to read them?
Well even though I'd say that I have a pretty good "common sense", you guys make me feel like I don't, but let's say that I don't. I've been here since 2011 and I still have no clear view of many rules simply because everyone knows them his own way. So here is my solution.
Make a topic with every single rule in the server(SAPD and FBI aswell, infact they must be all of the ARPD rules, I want to know when I'm being abused by people who get free guns and can force me to do things, I have the right of a legal representative, so I want that representative to know the damn rules). Once you've done that, make a topic with the simple rules, which with addition of "common sense" do actually lead to the other topic.
So everyone can choose what to read? HUH???
Also about punishments, organised or not. First of all, I do not care of having a chat with 10x more red posts on it, /p is a spam already, let's add a little more, who cares? Also I do not mind if the list of "standars" would become huge, just like you said(who ever did) it will actually make your work easier, you are indeed not robots, but you, just like us, should follow a set of rules on how to operate... Also for the ones who would find this too complex, well no one asked you to get such a seat, you applied for it and you are free to leave I guess, or? Am I wrong? I so far have never wanted to become part of your "team", so I am biased, just like every human being. But do not forget, that we wanted to be "players" and you wanted to be "admins". We both wanted it, so why are you higher than us?
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Stormeus post
Very good points.
I specifically liked the Electric Boogaloo part. :cop:
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If you follow few general thumb rules you shouldn't have any problems with the administration.
1) Don't shoot at anything unless you have a roleplay(ed) reason to do so.
2) Try not to insult/offend other players.
3) Don't abuse the scripts to gain advantage.
Those three rules pretty much cover all the rules there are, of course then there's (on some servers) say heli-killing etc, but generally those three thumb rules keeps you on the good side of the administration team.
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Also another good suggestion that i just came up with due to an IG matter ... Never pickup a report that you were present to... Unless you are the last one online for sure...
Also Kessu ... I was just told from an administrator that the situation really matters ... Well I do not see anythign being told about situation in your three rules...
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Also another good suggestion that i just came up with due to an IG matter ... Never pickup a report that you were present to... Unless you are the last one online for sure...
Also Kessu ... I was just told from an administrator that the situation really matters ... Well I do not see anythign being told about situation in your three rules...
not supported, admins are mostly not present to see a rulebreak, yet these rulebreaks should be handled - admin seeing a rulebreak is not the only evidence
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Staff will pick-up any report that comes in no matter if present or not, them being present makes them BETTER OFF to deal with it since they don't have to ask everything single person there what the hell happened. Staff are told not to be bias but it's in human nature to be so, feel that report was handled badly? Speak to HQ member online, type up forum PM explaining what happened or send in a email. Either way we'll deal with it.
Most player's don't read the rules who join, if they did they wouldn't spawn at LSAP and attack the other player's who spawned there or the Staff member who is waiting to help them out. No one likes to read they just want to get in-game and play. Common sense applies when you enter a server that the most basic of rules apply.
If you want to read SAPD "rules" go to the ARPD Forum, they are in public view as it is. Sub-division's like SWAT, ASID and Air Division are hidden and they don't even have "rules" to be frank just mere guidelines on what they should and shouldn't do. Nothing that other player's need to see, if you think different then go ask the SAPD Division leaders to reveal them or [WS]Mike or CBFasi.
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Also Kessu ... I was just told from an administrator that the situation really matters ... Well I do not see anythign being told about situation in your three rules...
It matters in a rule-specific case, but then again if you follow all three thumb rules I just listed you shouldn't be breaking the rules anyway.
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Well let me tell you that something that happened to us today :) Well I gathered my family members for kidnapping alphonse and things were going well but FBI interfere there and rescued him. All cool then OK? but suddenly he started to provoking us on /p like
''you sucks'',''failed people''. I reported him but no one taken action against him I don't know about the /pm function. then few moments after We tried to kidnap alfonze and succeed in it and taken him to our HQ where we RP'ed with him.PS: when we entered SF boundaries I don't from where FBI and PD started to following us whoever tell them don't know,maybe angels tell them but somehow we managed to drags him inside the building.ALL things was going well So decided to finish him after doing so called Roleplay.
and then one of my friend takes out his deagle and shoots in his mouth Ok (IN HIS MOUTH) and after getting shot in his mouth he typed /me runs towards the window and jumps and by pressing ''H'' he gets out I mean what is it? and after this that Alphonse start to provoke us again the same things he done before I reported him but again no one takes action against him (Note: He was the same admin who received a last report against him by me) I mean if some admins wants to play a certain group or players then they can tell us directly instead of doing this by banning our friends and forgiving them all the time I really request to High ranks admins to get involve in this and please thing something about it.
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Hamza you shouldn't have brought this up...
Jovanca, admins who are present to the situation shouldn't pickup the report about the situation(you understood the other way arround completly)
Rusty when I am present to a situation, it is more easy for me to get biased, and I've also seen 100% of the one side, possible not carring about the other side...
Also about what you said about the rules, take the time and read what I posted. People who do not want to read will have the short list, people who do, like me for examble, will read the huge list. Simple as that! Also about the ARPD Divisions, guidelines, rules, they are just different ways to calling a basic thing. No I will not ask from the SAPD Command to know when I am being abused. I have every right to know when I am being abused... THose DOs and DON'Ts have to become active, coz I need to atleast know the DON'Ts. Coz if I am alone with one of their members, and I don't know the DON'Ts then he will simply be abled to do anything to me... As I won't know when he's crossed the line ... DO prove me wrong here please!
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Hamza you shouldn't have brought this up...
Jovanca, admins who are present to the situation shouldn't pickup the report about the situation(you understood the other way arround completly)
Rusty when I am present to a situation, it is more easy for me to get biased, and I've also seen 100% of the one side, possible not carring about the other side...
Also about what you said about the rules, take the time and read what I posted. People who do not want to read will have the short list, people who do, like me for examble, will read the huge list. Simple as that! Also about the ARPD Divisions, guidelines, rules, they are just different ways to calling a basic thing. No I will not ask from the SAPD Command to know when I am being abused. I have every right to know when I am being abused... THose DOs and DON'Ts have to become active, coz I need to atleast know the DON'Ts. Coz if I am alone with one of their members, and I don't know the DON'Ts then he will simply be abled to do anything to me... As I won't know when he's crossed the line ... DO prove me wrong here please!
oh soz then, i kinda jsut woke up at the time i was reading that post xd maybe they shouldnt be the ones who issue the punishment (the admins who were part of the scene) but they should be objective when telling another admin what happened there.
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*text*
It was not like you then came outside and started so called O O C talking towards Alfonze while there were literally 14 cops around. Then all of a sudden "/me takes out his deagle and shoots Alfonze in the head". This makes your claim that Alfonze did not RP good enough quite ironic. What I am trying to say, this came from 2 sides.
*text*
Fine that you all try to kidnap people from the enemies side. But it is happening constantly and it seems that for you all the only satisfying result is that the hostage dies. If you ask me, that can be barely considered RP. I am fully capable of handling a situation where I was involved. And the situation you are referring to, did not even involve me personally as the problem was between the kidnappers and the hostage.
In general what I see in all these situations, people tend to find the edge between rulebreaking and allowed stuff. And then some tend to cross this edge now and then, because it is so easy. Why is it needed to find this edge and always go around testing this edge? It is much more enjoyable to keep a clear distance from this edge and you will find yourself in a much better position. Not only for admin, but also for yourself and other players.
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Also about punishments, organised or not. First of all, I do not care of having a chat with 10x more red posts on it, /p is a spam already, let's add a little more, who cares? Also I do not mind if the list of "standars" would become huge, just like you said(who ever did) it will actually make your work easier, you are indeed not robots, but you, just like us, should follow a set of rules on how to operate...
And seems you're one of those guys who would much rather see a guy punished publicly. Why are people so obsessed with it? Following a set of guidelines on when to punish a player is never going to help. We know when a punishment would be appropriate and when talking would be appropriate to bring the best out of the situation. Doing that will just cause endless moan. It would make our work easier and would be a pain the butt for the players. You sure you would want that?
The last few lines is just pulling words out of thin air. I have no interest in replying to those lines
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It was not like you then came outside and started so called O O C talking towards Alfonze while there were literally 14 cops around. Then all of a sudden "/me takes out his deagle and shoots Alfonze in the head". This makes your claim that Alfonze did not RP good enough quite ironic. What I am trying to say, this came from 2 sides.
That was the result of this continuously fuss and because of this I was really pissed of by that situation ! I mean you are doing RP from ass and then other one get away by just pressing simple H :) and what about that provocation part?
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And seems you're one of those guys who would much rather see a guy punished publicly. Why are people so obsessed with it? Following a set of guidelines on when to punish a player is never going to help. We know when a punishment would be appropriate and when talking would be appropriate to bring the best out of the situation. Doing that will just cause endless moan. It would make our work easier and would be a pain the butt for the players. You sure you would want that?
The last few lines is just pulling words out of thin air. I have no interest in replying to those lines
Ofcourse you wouldn't coz this is a truth that is against you, but I do not want to give much importance to that either. Also no I wouldn't rather see a guy punished publicly but I do like known if my report was properly handled, be it by just letting the reporter know what happent? Yet again my post had nothing to do about that, It was about being fair to the other guy, such standards could make it more fair.
Mikro you do have a point there. BUT "for you all", no one here is being completly general who gave you the right to? No I would personally rather have a different outcome out of a kidnap, and the only times i want the police force to get involved is when I kidnap an officer, asking money for it even though I never get them. THe only time I would just kill the guy that I've kidnapped would be the time that I was "forced" to by the ones against me, if the police storms, my first move would indeed be to kill that guy.
Also pulling a gun when not frisked/cuffed is poor RP? Did you guys take Alfonze to the hospital afterwards? Oh wait you didn't even though just like htey said he was shot in the mouth(which is most times a lethal shot).
Last, I was barelly part of what was going on, I had just logged and had managed to get there to RP with the officers outside... who didn't know any words other than: Leave from the scene!
Mikro it is true that you weren't directly affected by the situation, but you still were partly with the side of the victim as you were an officer, the way I see it, you should've digged more into what happent in there, but you didn't. But this is not what this topic is about, but it is rather another idea.
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Red text means serious business. There's no light-rulebreaking. If there's a /report in-between then someone's gameplay got ruined. The spam is nothing we can't "unsee" ( /settings IG ). How many times have you seen the reported person apologize to the reporter for the thing he did ? Seen it few times with the red text. Only once with the "verbally warned" but for that to happen, it took 1 Division Leader, i Manager, three admins and one or two moderators present on the scene. Wasn't A-team going to be stricter in rs5 ?
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We should concentrate on the higher level stuff here, not go into specific situations.
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Hamza you shouldn't have brought this up...
Jovanca, admins who are present to the situation shouldn't pickup the report about the situation(you understood the other way arround completly)
Rusty when I am present to a situation, it is more easy for me to get biased, and I've also seen 100% of the one side, possible not carring about the other side...
Also about what you said about the rules, take the time and read what I posted. People who do not want to read will have the short list, people who do, like me for examble, will read the huge list. Simple as that! Also about the ARPD Divisions, guidelines, rules, they are just different ways to calling a basic thing. No I will not ask from the SAPD Command to know when I am being abused. I have every right to know when I am being abused... THose DOs and DON'Ts have to become active, coz I need to atleast know the DON'Ts. Coz if I am alone with one of their members, and I don't know the DON'Ts then he will simply be abled to do anything to me... As I won't know when he's crossed the line ... DO prove me wrong here please!
Admins will pick-up any report that comes in. End of.
People who do not want to read won't read the rules at all, it's that simple. Great you want to read massive list of rules go ahead but most people who enter a server with RPG and have a ounce of sense n their head would understand that the most basic of rules apply on the server and will learn the rest as they go. They don't want to sit and read long list of rules that takes up their playing time.
Who said ask SAPD Command? *crickets*
If you don't want to go to the ARPD forum then don't not my concern. You just won't know when you were in the wrong or the cop was in the wrong.
Go speak to SAPD guy's about that stuff don't want to hear about it in this section of the forum.
Don't come here posting about how a kidnapping went or whatever, get original and do something else for once jeez. Venture off the track again and topic's closed indefinitely.
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I like how you go: blabla. End of. Feels like talking to a wall or something.
Also once again, I do not give a flying f..k about people who do not want to read the rules, I cannot prevent the server from rule breakers but I want to be abled to know when me or someone else is wrong, so that I can both try my best to always be "within" the rules but also know when I'm ask to do things that I don't have to.
You just asked me to go to the ARPD and read the rules... I do know these rules by heart, I used to be an SAPD Officer in RS4, and I highly doubt there are any big changes in them other than the ARPD Rules that were added a few months ago. I want to get access to every rule that I dont have access to, simple as that... And I also want a damn topic with atleast the server rules(f**k the police ones) atleast every single server rule, explain. The server has been arround for 8 years, and we still do not have a complete list of rules...
How will a list of rules help? A player will be abled to know the actual rules, and not have to follow what the administrator's mind finds are at each given time, coz there have been numerous times when a rule told by an administrator was later untold by another one.
(Don't come here posting about how a kidnapping went or whatever, get original and do something else for once jeez. Venture off the track again and topic's closed indefinitely.)
I hope that this wasn't going to me....
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There is a list of clearly understandable rules. What makes them complex sometimes are the situations, that's where different administrators make different verdicts and act accordingly.
If you use common sense for once, you'll see how easy it is to be active and take part in several events staying within the rules, without even having the rules and limits in mind.
Administrators are not robots, they make mistakes, they sometimes overreact, etc; Who doesn't? Nobody.
Do not have in mind such an example to decide how you will act, have your own way of behaving while staying within the rules and even if you get in trouble somehow, you'll find the way to avoid it by explaining.
Also, I'm not talking as the person who's perfect and never breaks a rule, I'm talking as a person who a very big troublemaker in the past but learnt some things, which he always keeps in mind.
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Yeah Right...
If we all only have to use common sense, then how come even administrators themselves tend to sometimes find eachother's verdicts wrong? The answer is simple, common sense is not as common as you think, every human sees things in a different way depending on his past, a guy who has been through 20 surgeries in his life will find an external operation a complete joke, a guy who has never had one, will probably be thinking about it the whole week before...
If you think that you see things the same way everyone does, then I am afraid that I can't help with that. And you could just go on and delete the whole topic...
EDIT: And to get something clear, you asked from us to get our shit straight, well do the same. Why is there no topic with each rule out there with specific explanations?
a: Because newbies do not want to read big topic?
b: Because no one would read it.
c: Because it is not needed as common sense is all that it takes?
d: Because you simply want to be abled to come to a verdict each time you get ask to, rather than following a book
e: Because you simply do not want to make one?
Also about common sense... the rules corrently writen are part of common sense, anything after that is fully situational, either put everything or delete the corrent ones... Or do you think that we don't know that DM is not allowed in RPG servers? Or do you think that we would start cheating and abusing glitches thinking that it is allowed?
Many servers have a good list of rules, WHY DON'T WE?
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I never said that, I can guarantee I see things way too more strange than most people around me do. Common sense in this situation would be what is rulebreaking and what isn't. I think that's pretty common for everyone - without considering personal reasons that may lead to a different verdict. Once action can be rulebreaking and within the rules, players'/administrators' opinion at times doesn't change it.
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I never said that, I can guarantee I see things way too more strange than most people around me do. Common sense in this situation would be what is rulebreaking and what isn't. I think that's pretty common for everyone - without considering personal reasons that may lead to a different verdict. Once action can be rulebreaking and within the rules, players'/administrators' opinion at times doesn't change it.
What is rulebreaking and what isn't? If it is so damn straight then why are there so many people asking for a rule topic? Why are we having a topic saying that each administrator judges depending on what comes to his mind at the time being? Well guess what, this gives a lot of space for biased dicesions... Also you didn't even answer half of my post...
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You don't need a rulebook to be able to behave...
I had access to the same rule as everyone, I have never been banned nor my punishment list contains more than 6-8 punishments since I joined..
Everyone should be able to behave with the current set of rules.
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What is rulebreaking and what isn't? If it is so damn straight then why are there so many people asking for a rule topic? Why are we having a topic saying that each administrator judges depending on what comes to his mind at the time being?
If you re-read my post you will have your questions answered.
Well guess what, this gives a lot of space for biased dicesions... Also you didn't even answer half of my post...
The whole point of the post was "common sense", and the other half was edited afterwards. How am I able to answer it without reading?
Now..
EDIT: And to get something clear, you asked from us to get our shit straight, well do the same. Why is there no topic with each rule out there with specific explanations?
a: Because newbies do not want to read big topic?
b: Because no one would read it.
c: Because it is not needed as common sense is all that it takes?
d: Because you simply want to be abled to come to a verdict each time you get ask to, rather than following a book
e: Because you simply do not want to make one?
Also about common sense... the rules corrently writen are part of common sense, anything after that is fully situational, either put everything or delete the corrent ones... Or do you think that we don't know that DM is not allowed in RPG servers? Or do you think that we would start cheating and abusing glitches thinking that it is allowed?
Many servers have a good list of rules, WHY DON'T WE?
I can't answer the first part as I'm not the one who will make that "list" you are asking for, but for the part of your post (In bold) I wonder why you would even need a list if you know those simple rules as you say.
There are servers that have so complex rules.. I've lost interest in those from the first moment I joined because they f**ked my head up. Argonath is not asking for many things.. the current list is way too more than enough to keep the server in a calm and enjoyable environment. People who are not willing to follow/disagree with some rules are the issue, not the list and the explanations.
You don't need a rulebook to be able to behave...
I had access to the same rule as everyone, I have never been banned nor my punishment list contains more than 6-8 punishments since I joined..
Everyone should be able to behave with the current set of rules.
Exactly what I'm trying to explain you.
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Double standards are here over years which proves that bias is not accident or mistake, but an act done purposely.
Regarding punishments i'll repeat myself:
Every admin understands existing rules differently and that's how they apply them. On top of that you have bunch of made up rules which are applied too.
Some admins can't use common sense and that's a big problem.
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You don't need a rulebook to be able to behave...
I had access to the same rule as everyone, I have never been banned nor my punishment list contains more than 6-8 punishments since I joined..
Everyone should be able to behave with the current set of rules.
Yeah surprisingly enough same thing goes for me.
Also just to get something straight... I am not asking for the rules to change, nor am I asking to delete the current rules. I'm asking for a topic which will have all of them ... a secodnary one, do not touch the primary...
So Cyril ... you vote for: We don't need them?
I've come to a point when I feel like I will simply stop carring, you simply throw a @@@@@@ and walk along like nothing happent.
Cyril do you want the biased verdicts to stop or not? Simple as that.
If yes then read your last post and tell me how this helped. Making a proper topic would give less freedom to the ones who every now and then are biased. Do oyu even care about that?
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http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=100219.msg1605344#msg1605344
Has the large majority of them listed, guess some of you overlooked this yet has been sitting around for a while now. We won't add "cop rules" to this go view their own set on the ARPD Forum. Something not there but you think it should? Say so.
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Nop ... I didn't overlook it. And even though I do believe that TOm did his best on that topic, I can give you numerous situational rules that aren't there... by barelly thinking about it...
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That's great. Instead of talking about something else want to actually post what else should be there, you know you could have done this about 2 pages back ...
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Okay let me start then... from a rather simple thing.
When is someone allowed to exit from a building?
When is someone allowed to exit from a building while not close to an exit point?
What is a suspect supposed to do when a Hydra/Hunter is chasing him and he is on land?
When is SWAT allowed to engage on a suspect?
What should I do if someone completly ignored an RP I start?
In which cases will this RP be: Forcing RP?
I can go all day long actually...
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Okay let me start then... from a rather simple thing.
When is someone allowed to exit from a building?
When is someone allowed to exit from a building while not close to an exit point?
What is a suspect supposed to do when a Hydra/Hunter is chasing him and he is on land?
When is SWAT allowed to engage on a suspect?
What should I do if someone completly ignored an RP I start?
In which cases will this RP be: Forcing RP?
I can go all day long actually...
1. Anytime, though do the decent thing and don't exit when being shot it really is a cheap move. Not player's fault that script lets you exit anywhere is it?
2. See above.
3. Uh shoot it? Then you risk it firing on you. Most cases SAPD deploy it for over-watch and will only fire when fired upon. Not related to actual server rules this falls under SAPD Divisions. Report the cop using it via ARPD Forum or FBI Forum.
4. If they interact with you then ignore afterwards then contact a staff member, if they ignore from the get go then they could be AFK entirely. Just move on and find someone else to role-play with stop wasting your time with people who got no clue about it.
5. Forcing roleplay upon someone would be when they have made it clear they don't wish to be involved or are actually busy doing something else (i.e admin work or helping someone)
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1. Anytime, though do the decent thing and don't exit when being shot it really is a cheap move. Not player's fault that script lest you exit anywhere is it?
Anytime? what if I am cuffed? or tied to a chair? See where I'm getting this? There are numerous situations, so even you couldn't give a proper answer.
Also about the SAPD regulations, remind me something. is SAPD or isn't it a group payed and practicly controlled by the state? The state being the server, I think that they have to let us know about their rights.
About the Hydra-Hunter, how am I supposed to escape from it? if I do not have something that can clearly outrun it? If I shoot, it shoots, and we both know how it ends, but when it is right behind my ass, I can't escape, so I will be a suspect till I get caught by an officer who is driving a land vehicle? You don't even need mathematics to understand that hwen you extend this to "infinity" the only outcome would be, me getting caught.
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EDIT: And to get something clear, you asked from us to get our shit straight, well do the same. Why is there no topic with each rule out there with specific explanations?
a: Because newbies do not want to read big topic?
b: Because no one would read it.
c: Because it is not needed as common sense is all that it takes?
d: Because you simply want to be abled to come to a verdict each time you get ask to, rather than following a book
e: Because you simply do not want to make one?
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Commonly if you have heavy air following you it only does that, until you shoot it of course.
Besides, you can still easily escape an eye in the sky. It's up to you to find a way.
It does not break a rule however.