Argonath RPG - A World of its own

GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: Jeremy. on July 20, 2016, 11:22:20 pm

Title: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Jeremy. on July 20, 2016, 11:22:20 pm
Hi, I hope this topic doesn't get closed or myself getting moderated because I posted it, but things are getting weird day by day. I have nothing against someone specific from the admin team nor the entire HQ so I hope you don't take this as an insult or whatsoever and I wish we can discuss in a proper manner without turning it into a fight. After all what's the reason of having a forum? Okay so let's get straight to the point.

What I suggest to whoever is in charge of HQ to make the rules pretty clear and either use it on everyone or don't apply at all. Seriously, I can't say those which you banned for POOR RP are innocent but what I saw at unban request board cleared my thoughts of why the playerbase is so low.

I don't get it at all, I recall an old man saying once you can roleplay whatever you want whenever you want. What I noticed players which are roleplaying as a criminal/mobster/gangster call it however you wish are being considered as biggest rulebreakers and the law enforcement are blameless and never guilty. You want proofs? There you go:

When police officers arrived at the scene, they shout for several times as they were going to arrest Jim. However none of you including Jim, you and Ramo tried to interact with them and you were just standing still there. When I rushed toward the roof I didn't see Jim carrying any kind of weapon so I decided to use taser to stop him but apparently he decided to scroll his weapons after he got frozen by /taser scripts. You guys have noticed the opportunity for a shootout (A.K.A Deathmatching) so you started shooting.

[17:43:29] [WS]Peter(22) shouts: Dont move!!
[17:43:50] TeaM_Arslan(26) says (megaphone): SUSPECT IN GREEN JACKET
[17:43:52] TeaM_Arslan(26) says (megaphone): GET ON THE GROUND
[17:43:54] TeaM_Arslan(26) says (megaphone): NOW
[17:44:08] Steven_Anderson(21) has taken out their taser.
[17:44:09] {FFFFFF}TiMoN{FFFFFF}: (33) can u use /m while standing near a cop car?
[17:44:09] [Radio] FBI Special Agent in Charge [WS]Peter(22) FBI: Behind the journey
[17:44:10] Dan_Svensson(10) fell on the ground due being hit by the taser of Steven_Anderson(21).
[17:44:11] [WS]Peter(22) has taken out their taser.
[17:44:12] TeaM_Arslan(26) has taken out their taser.
[17:44:15] Jim_Conroy(12) fell on the ground due being hit by the taser of [WS]Peter(22).
[17:44:17] Dan_Svensson(10) shouts: what the hell!!
[17:44:23] TiMoN(33) says: he has a fucking gun peter
[17:44:23] Player cuffed.
[17:44:29] [WS]Peter(22) pushes the gun away

This is the perfect example, I didn't say there was no roleplaying involved but it was way too poor. You can't just walk into a gang hood, ask a black to surrender, climb on a GS and open fire without being shot back or beaten up. It's pretty obvious. How do you have expectations of people roleplaying back when you don't do it? I'm sorry but /me pushes the gun away is shit RP, no offence.

Same goes for usage of /gm, apparently cops can use it for RP and criminals not. Can somebody explain me this? You banned people for using /gm.

Once again, I suggest making rules CLEAR for everyone and apply them for whoever is in-game, despite being an admin or a cop.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Ben. on July 20, 2016, 11:27:17 pm
This isn't the forum for issues on administrative punishment.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Jeremy. on July 20, 2016, 11:29:03 pm
This isn't the forum for issues on administrative punishment.

It's not about administrative punishment, it's about making the server rules clear and applying them on everyone.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Carlito.S on July 20, 2016, 11:29:53 pm
 :uhm: :uhm:
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Leon. on July 20, 2016, 11:31:39 pm
This isn't the forum for issues on administrative punishment.
It is when one admin is banning someone for something that another admin would have issued a simple verbal warning/lesson for. This is a problem that affects us all and therefore should be discussed.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: FARQ3X on July 20, 2016, 11:32:57 pm
It's not about administrative punishment, it's about making the server rules clear and applying them on everyone.

I agree on this. Unfortunately, both new players and cops who do anything to arrest are immune to these.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Liviu. on July 20, 2016, 11:35:21 pm
I must say, that what happend there is pretty shitty. No offence. Make the rules more clear.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: eymas on July 20, 2016, 11:37:31 pm
Discuss unruly punishments or staff members with us(Mikro and me) directly. If it happens to be Mikro you wish to report, Me or gandalf can help.

As for rules being clarified, We do try to get this as close to perfect as possible but the chance still exists that we may overlook some things. I can only hope the community can give us a neutral opinion on the matters rather than taking sides immediately or diverging personal matters into this.

In the past few days the player-count on samp has declined drastically as people prefer arguing here. Realize that this is a change you've set in motion and you too have to revert.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: FARQ3X on July 20, 2016, 11:41:03 pm
Discuss unruly punishments or staff members with us(Mikro and me) directly. If it happens to be Mikro you wish to report, Me or gandalf can help.

As for rules being clarified, We do try to get this as close to perfect as possible but the chance still exists that we may overlook some things. I can only hope the community can give us a neutral opinion on the matters rather than taking sides immediately or diverging personal matters into this.

In the past few days the player-count on samp has declined drastically as people prefer arguing here. Realize that this is a change you've set in motion and you too have to revert.

This sparked an idea. How about we stop arguing and actually make suggestions for HQ to fix things.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: TiMoN on July 20, 2016, 11:41:25 pm
In the past few days the player-count on samp has declined drastically as people prefer arguing here. Realize that this is a change you've set in motion and you too have to revert.
It's because of shitty rules being implemented that restricts gameplay as much as possible(also because I got banned sh).
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Jeremy. on July 20, 2016, 11:44:07 pm
In the past few days the player-count on samp has declined drastically as people prefer arguing here. Realize that this is a change you've set in motion and you too have to revert.
I'm afraid to play on a server where the rules are "changing". I don't want to get myself banned.

Oh also let's not forget this:

"Regarding your statement about the usage of taser... As I said, Jim didn't carry any firearm when I tased him however we can use taser if there is no an active shootout."

The Taser can't be used if:

- The suspect is wielding any type weapon.(firearms and sharp objects)
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: CharlieKasper on July 20, 2016, 11:44:54 pm
Quote
In the past few days the player-count on samp has declined drastically as people prefer arguing here.

It is true at times but not true in a situation such as this where things are this unstable.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: eymas on July 20, 2016, 11:45:22 pm
It's because of shitty rules being implemented that restricts gameplay as much as possible(also because I got banned sh).
Do remember that we are always open for constructive input on how to lessen this supposed grip you suggest. We know nothing can be well balanced right off the bat despite that we try to get it as close as possible.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Sarmed on July 20, 2016, 11:45:41 pm
Jeremy your point is valid but some peoples take this as a shitty topic.we need to take as a discussion.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Leon. on July 20, 2016, 11:46:23 pm
Discuss unruly punishments or staff members with us(Mikro and me) directly. If it happens to be Mikro you wish to report, Me or gandalf can help.

As for rules being clarified, We do try to get this as close to perfect as possible but the chance still exists that we may overlook some things. I can only hope the community can give us a neutral opinion on the matters rather than taking sides immediately or diverging personal matters into this.

In the past few days the player-count on samp has declined drastically as people prefer arguing here. Realize that this is a change you've set in motion and you too have to revert.
I do not think unruly punishments are precisely the issue, just the overly broad interpretation of the RS5-invented massively "grey area"-type roleplay rules. I believe more emphasis should be placed on teaching players what they are doing wrong through personal messages and how to do better, rather than being unreasonable/inhuman and simply banning them for breaking the rules. Besides, we cannot afford to have any more players banned. Not to mention, players are less likely to come back if they are banned for an honest mistake.

Even veterans such as myself overlook some details or forget a small rule. I should not be expected to consciously remember every detail of Argonath's new roleplay "rulebook." Back in my day admins did not care if you used /area or /cb to track somebody down. Now you get a fucking ban for it without a word, and somehow you're expected to know. Things have basically changed overnight.

All I'm asking is that the admin team cuts us a little slack when it comes to roleplay matters, or at least while we still figure out where we're going with these new regulations. Act human with us.

Just because a player has been playing for more than a year or two does not mean that they know every little thing about Argonath and it's rules (both written and unwritten, which there's a lot of unwritten rules) and are incapable of mistakes. What might be common sense to you as an admin might not be common sense to us as players.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Sweeper on July 20, 2016, 11:46:39 pm
In the past few days the player-count on samp has declined drastically as people prefer arguing here.

Or the players are sick of HQ's lack of proper communication and prefer not to play anymore.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Hevar. on July 20, 2016, 11:50:35 pm
This isn't the forum for issues on administrative punishment.

Speech of freedom
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: [Rstar]Peter on July 20, 2016, 11:52:25 pm
[17:44:29] [WS]Peter(22) pushes the gun away
\me pushes the gun away is shit RP, no offence.

I died before I actually type this line, didn't have much chance to complete it. :P

Quote
The Taser can't be used if:

- The suspect is wielding any type weapon.(firearms and sharp objects)
Idk where did you see this. But we have different procedure regarding that in FBI.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: TiMoN on July 20, 2016, 11:53:50 pm
Idk where did you see this. But we have different procedure regarding that in FBI.
I posted a topic that got dozens of replies about that, both departments agreed that armed suspects cannot be tased.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Ben. on July 20, 2016, 11:54:08 pm
Speech of freedom
No, it's about the administration team providing a fair, consistent and united view.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: eymas on July 20, 2016, 11:54:35 pm
I'm afraid to play on a server where the rules are "changing". I don't want to get myself banned.
You can bombard us with questions to clarify what you do not know. Rest assured banishments are always a last resort for administrators so you do not have to fear it all the time.

"Regarding your statement about the usage of taser... As I said, Jim didn't carry any firearm when I tased him however we can use taser if there is no an active shootout."
The Taser can't be used if:
- The suspect is wielding any type weapon.(firearms and sharp objects)

That is something for the ARPD to handle as it is one of their rules. Server-side we can look at this as well, but that should only be if widely abused.

I do not think unruly punishments are precisely the issue, just the overly broad interpretation of the RS5-invented massively "grey area"-type roleplay rules. I believe more emphasis should be placed on teaching players what they are doing wrong through personal messages and how to do better, rather than being unreasonable/inhuman and simply banning them for breaking the rules. Besides, we cannot afford to have any more players banned. Not to mention, players are less likely to come back if they are banned for an honest mistake.

Even veterans such as myself overlook some details or forget a small rule. I should not be expected to consciously remember every detail of Argonath's new roleplay "rulebook." Back in my day admins did not care if you used /area to track somebody down. Things have basically changed overnight.

All I'm asking is that the admin team cuts us a little slack when it comes to roleplay matters, or at least while we still figure out where we're going with these new regulations. Act human with us.

Just because a player has been playing for more than a year or two does not mean that they know every little thing about Argonath and it's rules (both written and unwritten, which there's a lot of unwritten rules) and are incapable of mistakes. What might be common sense to you as an admin might not be common sense to us as players.
We also tend to think the roleplay itself is at fault even though that is only half of the whole story. I do like the way you've put the general overview however.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Leon. on July 21, 2016, 12:29:35 am
We also tend to think the roleplay itself is at fault even though that is only half of the whole story.
What do you mean by this exactly?

I am aware that this past year admins have grown quite weary of a play-to-win attitude which sometimes contributes to poor roleplay quality and a general toxic server environment - and as a result, a harsher punishment is issued. Is this what you are talking about?
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: eymas on July 21, 2016, 12:54:24 am
What do you mean by this exactly?

I am aware that this past year admins have grown quite weary of a play-to-win attitude which sometimes contributes to poor roleplay quality and a general toxic server environment - and as a result, a harsher punishment is issued. Is this what you are talking about?
More that I was aiming to hint to the fact we look at the amount of interaction between each other, as well as the type of roleplay that transpired in the situation when looking at punishments, even though that is just one side of the coin; it shows us where the broken rules come out of. That's what we would have to focus on.

And yes; with players and groups aiming to win moreso than having fun with each other, we are taking measures to hopefully remove that behavior. Even though the efforts could be in vain.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Stivi on July 21, 2016, 09:22:30 am
-Actually enforce "you can't ignore /me and /em" rule. No one from a-team has done something about it on at least 7/8 reports I have sent. No one.

-Enforce no metagaming for everyone. "no using non-rp obtained information in rp". Look at Matthew's unban request. /gm is not RP. And then look at Kenji's/Sam's unban requests, again /gm is not rp. These kind of stuff make players not want to play, legit.

-Don't force players to RP what you want, that's win-mentality.

There is nothing wrong trying to win, as long as yoy follow the rules, really.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Dean. on July 21, 2016, 03:08:21 pm
The Taser can't be used if:

- The suspect is wielding any type weapon.(firearms and sharp objects)[/b]

A taser causes muscle spasm which means that if you taze a person with a gun in his/her hand, the trigger will most likely be pulled. However this does not apply to sharp objects at all.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Cofiliano on July 22, 2016, 07:15:42 am
In the past few days the player-count on samp has declined drastically as people prefer arguing here. Realize that this is a change you've set in motion and you too have to revert.

More like people see invalid bans, based on someones wrong judgment of the roleplay level, and they don't wanna play on a server that they don't even know will they get banned for doing something everyone elses has been doing, and is still doing, for the last 8 years.( just on a better roleplay level perhaps then back then, yet they'll still end up banned).

The 'rules' are being 'changed' from one ban to another, the roleplay policy is not clear, the situation is unstable, the current HQ with all do respect, doesn't know what the hell they're doing, nor do they have the required experience or knowledge to handle it. Not to mention the lack of any reasonability, yet subjective feelings which leads to a more hillarious and more retarded situation, which against, influence the lack of players.

The fact you see roleplay enemies among criminals, and people on the law forcement side are pointing these things out, says enough.

You can ignore it, find excuses, blame others for it, or you can face this reality that you guys created.


And another thing, not connected to the subject yet highly mentioned around;

Can you guys, spare us the "play to win" quote, please. Everyones blaming some imgainary "play to win problem". Yeah people tend to push it, and the rivalry goes into hate, which I'll never understand, nor approve, nor allow in my group.
But people been throwing that quote too much, pointing how that's the reason people don't have fun. Horse crap.

This is a game. In every game you tend to win, that's the whole point of its existance. Will you win it by some amazing BBQ roleplay in Red County, or by drive by'ing a rival group, are just styles, and most people do both of it.

Rivalries  are the essence of all interactions made by different groups, and not just among humans, yet among the entire animal kingdom.

Rivalries  are what makes things interesting, what makes people work harder, become more creative, more organised, more developed.

Its the reason sport leauges earn billions, and there's nothing wrong with groups or people being rivals to each other, its a perfectly natural social relations.

Rivalries makes the fun more exciting, thrilling, and interesting.

So the whole "play to win is the main problem", as Vlad would say, all that aimboting and you still didnt hit the source of the problem, yet you created more problems.

Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Stivi on July 22, 2016, 08:39:06 am
Can you guys, spare us the "play to win" quote, please. Everyones blaming some imgainary "play to win problem". Yeah people tend to push it, and the rivalry goes into hate, which I'll never understand, nor approve, nor allow in my group.
But people been throwing that quote too much, pointing how that's the reason people don't have fun. Horse crap.
Score.



The whole p2w thing was mentioned by Teddy when Grandpa or whoever found a loophole in the rules and used it, much like Acika really. And then the charcter system was introduced, great. That's it - stop doing more about it.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Ben. on July 22, 2016, 09:20:39 am
Aimbotting  :lol:

The perception of losing causes friction, and it is a play-to-win mentality which causes that.
Counter Strike, for example, often includes insults between players as there is a clear line between winning and losing. Roleplay doesnt have to be like that, though. If your perception of "winning" is having an awesome roleplay, then you're at an advantage.

I've seen multiple cases of people coming ingame purely for the purposes of storming/defending a weed field - as far as I'm concerned, thats utter shit as we all know how that will end.

I do see the point though @Cofiliano that competitiveness is natural - But without enough roleplay the intense "win/lose" of deathmatching (or of having your weed taken) will cause unfriendly competition.
It is literally down to the players.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: CharlieKasper on July 22, 2016, 11:05:00 am
Cofiliano summed it up
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Richard. on July 22, 2016, 11:20:22 am
(or of having your weed taken) will cause unfriendly competition.
Yeah like how dare players expect their weed to get stolen by the mafia...
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Ramo_Hawk on July 22, 2016, 11:34:17 am
Cofiliano summed it up
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Ben. on July 23, 2016, 09:43:08 pm
Yeah like how dare players expect their weed to get stolen by the mafia...
Well, they don't know its the mafia if it isn't RPed properly!  ;)
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: wweman14 on July 24, 2016, 01:37:30 am
I am not alone when I say that the uncertainty of the rules is through the roof. There are so many shortcuts and unknown rules that exist in only the administrators minds, and is not even found in the rules. I have seen so many examples where, "quality" roleplay has to be used. But, when it turns into another's groups dissatisfaction, the simple retorts of, "we don't have to RP that." or, "that's not in the rules" comes into play.


Once HQ decides to make themselves clear on whether or not they want this server to be a serious RP server or not, the rest is quite simple.


However. Let's keep in mind the light-rp system worked for years, and the server saw loads of activity and creativity. Keep it that way.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: FARQ3X on July 24, 2016, 02:11:14 am
Well, they don't know its the mafia if it isn't RPed properly!  ;)

If you see a shit ton of italian guys roll up in expensive cars I doubt you will think they sell ice cream.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Ben. on July 24, 2016, 02:25:00 am
If you see a shit ton of italian guys roll up in expensive cars I doubt you will think they sell ice cream.
Okay, but how do you know they're italian if they don't roleplay it?
My point is, I for one am more comfortable with a "loss" of something if I've had positive interaction from the situation.
Its the difference between "Get on the floor and give money or I shoot!" and a clear RP situation like:
/em Italian in origin, with clipped accent
/me brandishes a golden Desert Eagle
/l Well, we have a problem here, don't we?
/me leans forward and whispers a hidden threat into <person>s ear
/l I believe you have something which belongs to me. I want it back.
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: FARQ3X on July 24, 2016, 02:27:00 am
Okay, but how do you know they're italian if they don't roleplay it?
My point is, I for one am more comfortable with a "loss" of something if I've had positive interaction from the situation.
Its the difference between "Get on the floor and give money or I shoot!" and a clear RP situation like:
/em Italian in origin, with clipped accent
/me brandishes a golden Desert Eagle
/l Well, we have a problem here, don't we?
/me leans forward and whispers a hidden threat into <person>s ear
/l I believe you have something which belongs to me. I want it back.

I misunderstood you... I hope when i get unbanned i might actually get some decent RO
Title: Re: "Poor RP" concept
Post by: Ben. on July 24, 2016, 02:29:53 am
i might actually get some decent RP
For sure  :D
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