Argonath RPG - A World of its own
GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: CBFasi on March 03, 2010, 02:35:22 pm
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Well title says it all, and a recent RP situation will help me describe the problems.
And yes by co-incidence most the moaning comes from the criminals (but not all).
Thoughts
So just how often do you complain about someone for not RPing when that RP situation did not go the way you wanted it too..
How often do you turn up to a RP situation to find that only way to resolve it means less RP from you..
Consider these....
Example of a one-sided Situation.
Criminals have kidnapped a player and has decided to hold up in an underground carpark in Eastern LS
They have blocked the exit/entrances with many vehicles..
Why is this one sided you may think.
Well cops have only solutions the criminals want, there is no chance of success from cop point of view.
RP Solutions...
1 Cops assault and rescue hostage
2 Cops negotiate to get time, and assault to get hostage
3 Cops negotiate to get time, pay then go after kidnappers after hostage released
4 Cops just pay up and then go after kidnappers
5 Cops just pay up and ignore everything else.
If the hostage dies the cops have lost..,
If the cops pay they have lost..
If the criminals get money they have won.
Problems..
Options 1 and 2 will fail due to unfair use of vehicles to block the entrance/exit, taking 'advantage' of SAMPS annoying problems moving close to and on vehicles
Options 3,4,5 well cops are not supposed to pay.
To make things worse... an attempt to clear some vehicles led to a player stating that an admin was abusing his rights and ruining RP ....
An attempt to negotiate failed, I got SHOT while doing so, and then the second attempt failed as I got KILLED trying to get back in to talk.
I then put a kill order out, knowing there was no way for cops to rescue the hostage (not rp but only game option left)
So just what was wrong in all this
Kidnappers seemed to not have planned a way out, so it was situation designed to get the money and cops pissed off.
Kidnappers kept shooting and killing cops WHILE negotiations tried to happen, hence why I backed off first time (after taking fire from kidnappers).
Cops got frustated about the lack of what they could do and went for worst case solution in the end.
So what do we learn..
RP situations need to be flexible, allow for more than the solution than the intended one.
Do nto build a RP situation with only the solution you want, in above, less vehicles to block would of meant more flexibility for both sides....
WHY, simple... a one sided RP situation is only fun for one side, and normally results in moans when it does not go their way..
We are here to TRY to RP, that means BOTH sides, try to have fun, so what if a RP situations changes completely from what you had planned, go with the flow, adapt, its more fun, its a challenge and most of all its unpredicatable so you never know what to expect.
Too often I see moans about cant RP, well actually think about it... is it just not rp the way you want it??
I shall end with a few words
Be fair in your play to all, not just yourself.
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Criminals have kidnapped a player [....]
RP Solutions...
1 Cops assault and rescue hostage
2 Cops negotiate to get time, and assault to get hostage
3 Cops negotiate to get time, pay then go after kidnappers after hostage released
4 Cops just pay up and then go after kidnappers
5 Cops just pay up and ignore everything else.
[...]
An attempt to negotiate failed, I got SHOT while doing so, and then the second attempt failed as I got KILLED trying to get back in to talk.
Where is number 6?
6 CBFasi comes in his hunter and blows missiles at the building D;
I remember when we kidnapped a guy and took him to SF..
We were inside the house.. You came with a hunter, and went all nuts with hunter, fireing missiles, while I tried to negotiate with cops. That ruined all the RP :)
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Nice one CBFasi.
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Wisely spoken.
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True CBF .. People really must learn they cant only rp one way .. They have to be ready to change the RP as the scenario goes... Like many people almost powergame cause there not open minded about Rp .. only about there own story .. Hope people read this thread and maybe a seed is planted to enhance the gameplay for all sides..
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:roll: What destroys more RPs is the usage of the Hydra and Hunters as Greg posted above, at least let us (criminals) steal the Hunter sometimes, that would be cool :)
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:roll: What destroys more RPs is the usage of the Hydra and Hunters as Greg posted above, at least let us (criminals) steal the Hunter sometimes, that would be cool :)
Unfortunately, that would also make all hell break loose. Only those who can be trusted with one of those are allowed to touch them, virtually all of which are high-ranking law enforcement.
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Not surprisingly you guys are already breaking CBF's topic up with your "COPS RUIN RP" "NO CRIMINALS DO" arguments...
But yeah guys, give roleplay a chance. Both sides.
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So you want Criminals to create a RP-situation, where cops can invade the whole scenario, arresting the suspects?
What's the point of making a kidnap then..the Criminals want to win, that's how it is.
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True in both cases, cops do not listen to the suspects when they say dont shoot but the same goes for the suspects, the cops ask them to not shoot and what do they do, they kill the cop while they are trying to negotiate, theres no reason for the moaning becuase it solves no problems, EVER!
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So you want Criminals to create a RP-situation, where cops can invade the whole scenario, arresting the suspects?
What's the point of making a kidnap then..the Criminals want to win, that's how it is.
/facepalm
Read this CAREFULLY:
An attempt to negotiate failed, I got SHOT while doing so, and then the second attempt failed as I got KILLED trying to get back in to talk.
I then put a kill order out, knowing there was no way for cops to rescue the hostage (not rp but only game option left)
Criminals want to win, they negotiate with the cops, get money, and then release the hostage.
If criminals want money but can't negotiate then there's no RP possible here.
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1. Cops assault and rescue hostage
That's how every RP kidnap looks. I'm trying to negociate with the cops, pointing the gun at the hostage's head. Then, when I'm going to write something, the gun automaticlly lowers. Thats the perfect time for: "/cb RUSH IN GUYS AND KILL EVERYTHING YOU SEE!!1!!1 PEW PEWPEW"
What is the point of even trying make a RP kidnap when it always turn out like this?
And also, I'm not moaning, just telling the truth.
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You may say, they will give the ransome, but out of the more than 20 kidnaps ive been in, maybe 2 of them the cops actually gave some money which was something like 5k, then raided and shot everyone.
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You may say, they will give the ransome, but out of the more than 20 kidnaps ive been in, maybe 2 of them the cops actually gave some money which was something like 5k, then raided and shot everyone.
Then what is the point of making a kidnap if the RP just fails when the cops raid in?
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Then what is the point of making a kidnap if the RP just fails when the cops raid in?
That is exactly my question, since they barely ever will give a ransome, why do it over and over when they end up getting nearly 4x the amount of suspects inside, then raiding all at once and it turns into a DM party.
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This is a very good topic discussion where criminals/civilians will have the ability to voice their view constructively. I hope in the coming week this topic is not locked for serving its purpose as there will be a climatic paradox.
This community in certain aspects are built on realism. For example, the SAPD have overwhelming power over civilians and criminals. This is achieved through uncharged weaponry and SAPD aligned admin rules. This includes the ability for SAPD officers to return to a RP once they have been killed. In contrast, criminals are not permitted to return to a RP once they have been killed. In addition, there is overwhelming support for the SAPD in comparison to the criminal base of Argonath.
The reason for this is because the SAPD are governed through a set of high level rules which involve delegating tasks throughout the divisions. The aspect of this hierarchy is strong, where malpractice is punished through relegation of ability and extended penalties such as demotion. It is a trusted system which is robust and where authority flourishes.
In severe contrast, the criminals have no overall hierarchy governing them under one branch of control. For example, there is no ruling body to control whether [GSF] or Inferno 9 [i9] are breaking the code of conduct for criminals. This is proven through the extension of warnings, kicks and bans within the criminal base which is significantly higher then its SAPD counterpart.
Whilst the above demonstrates clear one side RP on behalf of the SAPD, the criminals have accepted this as the natural lifecycle process in Argonath. The roleplay situation described above was conducted by Inferno 9 [i9] and took a significant while to prepare. Whilst I was not involved in the structural making, I can defend it for being considerate for all sides going forward.
A significant proportion of the criminal base work for intrinsic and extrinsic benefits as the SAPD kill criminals for cash. The proposition of withdrawing reward incentives for killing criminals would cause outrage among the SAPD base. As expected the same theme would be highlighted by the criminal base further distancing relations and leveraging the SAPD base above criminals.
Going forward, to resolve this - one must consider the benefit of implementing a criminal governance body which is responsible for outlining the rules and regulations that criminals are expected to work along. It will form a similar format to the SAPD hierachy. These principles should not limit the ability, imagination or creativity of criminals.
In summary, Argonath is not consistent in terms of fairness in the context of RP. However there is scope to rectify the issue, we can make adjustments and initiate new methods of improving quality within the community.
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well cops are not supposed to pay.
Why not? Criminals pay cops all the time, but the criminals can't make a buck from the cops by kidnapping.
Use the money the players lose every time they die to pay ransoms instead. Use a special account for it, and high-ranked cops or feds can use that account to pay ransoms until the account has been emptied (which is unlikely, because people die all the time).
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Do nto build a RP situation with only the solution you want, in above, less vehicles to block would of meant more flexibility for both sides....
I'll argue about this point.
Why would someone want to build up a situation, which can give an advantage to the other side? That makes no sense at all.
We're all playing on an RP server, so why don't you roleplay like a real kidnapper?
And why dont you RP a real cop? If you have no solution, you, as cop, have to remember: SAFETY f**king FIRST. Not paying kidnappers just show how government has their force not caring at all about safety of their citizens. Ofcourse you'll Argue like "Wtf, but that's still the money!"
But this is a game! So what, they get money, that means your life is ruined? Reputation is f**ked? Then why don't you, after paying money and GETTING HOSTAGE SAFE, make an intervention plan and kill them then take money back? Or, atleast kill them, so the RP will be over, and they'll be considered as dead. And think that your money got burned before they died?
Same for FBI and SWAT, from times to times (i've seen it rapidly happening) when 207 situations result in a failure, it's your own fault you didn't cooperate with suspects! But it always result: "NOOOO, THEY ARE DAMN DMERS AND THEY DONT RP JUST KILL THE HOSTAGE, NONRP!!!!!!" Wow, are you girls or something...?
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207s are over-rated and simply unoriginal.
All I have to say.
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The question is: Why do you [kidnappers] ask the COPS to pay?
AFAIK kidnappers would ask for money from someone wealthy in exchange for someone who's important for the rich guy. NOT ask the cops for a more or less random person.
You mafia guys should try kidnapping an i9 member (or vice versa) and ask for ransom, with the condition of not calling the cops. At least IMO there are more possible endings to such scenario than in the over-used "kidnap anyone and call cops for cash".
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The question is: Why do you [kidnappers] ask the COPS to pay?
Because people are unoriginal.
This is where the "non-avoidable" situation comes. Since cops have to protect and secure citizens, they have no choice but to respond to the 207 call. Everyone will call it basically "Non-RP", but there's no such thing as "No non-RP" rule on our server.
Btw, what happened with "All 911 Kidnapp calls are prank calls" rule for cops?
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Maybe I should add another F to my 3 F'S of RP :D
Fun
Fair
Feasible
Flexible!
(( I have been preaching this around ARPD forum a few times))
Kinda comes under 'fair' but it sounds good.
My view on this, is that first of all at least one side must be willing to sacrifice their chance of 'winning' the RP scenario for a good RP. This tends to happen when the other side has showed imaginative, inventive roleplay. If a criminal has set up an event which is new and well thought out, cops should be more inclined to let the criminals 'win'. In an example of hostage situation, just ignore when they ask cops for money. Who should they ask? Family, friends, government (not cops), businessmen.
But even when that happens, cops will still do the same. They will still try to 'win' the scenario regardless of RP involved.
One of my previous RPs: I set up a robbery of an ambulance for medical supplies. I shot one of my men so he would come. Whilst he came on scene, a cop showed up, being unhelpfully helpful. We were forced to kidnap the medic in order to escape the cops with out lives, not to mention we needed to get our friend healed. Once safe, our demands were simple: Let us go free, hostage will be released. Denied. Let us hide the stolen goods somewhere, hostage will be released. Denied. Track the boss (me) to hide the stolen goods, hostage released. Denied. Delete criminal records, hostage released. Accepted. Hostage was released, completely unharmed (we only needed him to heal our man and as a means to escape). As soon as he is out, we all get suspected and stormed. Then followed some investigations etc...
Problem with that example, shows cops are more concerned on hunting criminals regardless of RP involved. Some situations where criminals outnumber and out gun cops (e.g. i9 taking over LS Docks). I recommend a tactic of just ignoring them, waiting for them to break up or enter transit (driving etc), making them much easier targets once they split up. Of course I am ignored by James Hunter who just tries to organise many assaults, getting lots of cops obliterated in hope of killing a few criminals killed.
So where CBF has a good reasoning to be angry, the same thing can be said for both sides.
To improve I think those sides might think about following:
Criminals: Need to have clear RP aims, clear goals for roleplaying a crime. Frank Hawk especially. Many of your RPs I have witnessed involves bringing a lot of criminals together which is admirable and I know is fun, but lacks any roleplay plan or goal, other than fighting cops. Put in the effort to plan and be creative. Criminals don't do crimes for the sake of doing them.
Cops: When criminals gone through the effort of setting up an RP plan, go along with it for the fun, for the ride. Cops should be looking out for fun and unexpected things to do to make people laugh and to make the experience better. Don't bother with the attention seekers, and have some fun with the criminals who have made a reason for their actions. If you like cop simulator, that's fine, but keep in mind the GTA spirit!
Regarding CBF's situation. I think I was there that day. I was reading the chat scroll whilst driving (not paying attention), and found myself near the hostage situation. I could have stopped by at the FBI cruiser to check what happened, but since I would have been shouted at for finding criminals with /area or some crap, I just left them to it. :lol:
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The question is: Why do you [kidnappers] ask the COPS to pay?
AFAIK kidnappers would ask for money from someone wealthy in exchange for someone who's important for the rich guy. NOT ask the cops for a more or less random person.
You mafia guys should try kidnapping an i9 member (or vice versa) and ask for ransom, with the condition of not calling the cops. At least IMO there are more possible endings to such scenario than in the over-used "kidnap anyone and call cops for cash".
Couldn't agree more. Kidnapping random people and calling COPS for ransom makes you look like a terrorist group, not a mafia or street gang. Why do you think the Somali pirates demand ransom from governments? Why do you think al-Qaeda demands ransoms from governments. Simple. They're terrorists. I know FBI still goes by the "Kidnappers call cops = no response" rule. IDK if SAPD still goes by it.
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@jcstodds' post
Well that's basically what I mean with the green text in my signature. Both sides should play for the fun of the chase/situation, not for showing who's better in combat, driving, wealth, or anything else for that matter.
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Inferno 9 [i9] held several large scale roleplay protests encouraging participation from a wider range of audience being civilians, criminals and SAPD officers. In turn, we subsequently lost all large scale protests through our own consent and logical sense. We displayed on many occasions the willingness to be flexible through our conduct, application and general attitude. For us, it's the factor of having fun, establishing a brotherhood and enjoy the game to it's full capacity.
This topic will serve as a arena for brainstorming some ideas in conjunction with your arguements. If you are a criminal/SAPD officer - please comment.
Jcstodds, thanks for the input - we are all improving on our roleplay ability and will as a result implement this into my own learning capacity.
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If you get shot at while trying to negotiate, then the kidnappers are just POORLY organised without any leadership at all (being a mafia "boss" doesn't count as leadership if you let your guys do whatever the fuck they want). In such cases the cops WILL win.
I remember a while back the SWAT team went off duty and took a whole bar hostage (about 15 hostages, 7 were killed on the spot). We had good leadership, but the cops outnumbered us 6 to 30. We died, but we took ALL the hostages with us (4 of them were actually killed BY the cops) and about 10 cops along with the hostages. Funny thing is, we were actually going to get paid by Jcstodds and we would've just attempted to escape. Sadly, Pancher gave an order for the cops to rush in, resulting in the death of every hostage and kidnapper.
Anyways, we didn't really 'contact' anyone, the cops just came by themselves.
A month ago five people including me (led by Jay Adams) kidnapped Vince when he was off duty and contacted a friend of Vince. We got paid 100k and everyone escaped.
Anyways, I haven't seen a properly roleplayed 207 take place in a long time. Every time it's just some unorgansid guys kidnapping an admin/high cop for money, which usually results in the kidnappers' deaths.
Post Merge: March 03, 2010, 07:45:38 pm
James Hunter who just tries to organise many assaults, getting lots of cops obliterated in hope of killing a few criminals killed.
He just does it to weed the freecops out. It's a really rare case where one of his team actually dies during an assault :roll:
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Guess how ALS stopped their lifetime. At the point when Argonath turned into a Cop'n Robbers server, no one cares to be in a 'limousine' service anymore, you all want the best car, pay 2 million for it, while 2 years back, you paid 500K for a limousine, wich was absolutely ALOT back then.
Events based on non-profit scale were popular, and you had way more citizens, people hiring gardeners and fighting neighboors. Non of those events were based on big profit, but hell.. They were fun.
If i try any of those situations on the current community, i get no response at all.
This is not a complaint, this is just how things are from my point of view.
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Guess how ALS stopped their lifetime. At the point when Argonath turned into a Cop'n Robbers server, no one cares to be in a 'limousine' service anymore, you all want the best car, pay 2 million for it, while 2 years back, you paid 500K for a limousine, wich was absolutely ALOT back then.
Events based on non-profit scale were popular, and you had way more citizens, people hiring gardeners and fighting neighboors. Non of those events were based on big profit, but hell.. They were fun.
If i try any of those situations on the current community, i get no response at all.
This is not a complaint, this is just how things are from my point of view.
agreed, back in ALS, we had to get numerous members to put money together just to buy a single limo, and now people have so much money in their pockets just because its all they care about they are able to buy more than 7 limo's easy at 500k a piece, it used to be all RP and its turned into mainly money based.
It was one of the best decisions to close ALS when we did, it would have started to suffer when all these changes took place like the drop of most RP and the want for more money came for most. It was an unfortunate thing to remove ALS from Argonath but it had to be done for the best of the Companies Great Reputation.
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I may actually remove the small $100 amount that cops get when they kill a non-surrendered criminal.
They actually get FINED for killing surrendered suspects..
So unless a cop JAILS they are making almost NO money (and if I change as I just mentioned most cops will earn nothing)
Yes cops get free weapons, the weaponequip used by SWAT, FBI maybe restricted even more, as for SAPD, they only get it in Pd's from high level officers, and this is not common, most of their of weapons are actually paid for, and worse they are lost every time they use /duty !!
Its not all the good news about cops.
I have already thought of even more restrictions to what they can do, all to try and make cops work better and be less abusive, but of course, criminals unless organised would suffer worse and moan more.
Hydra/Hunter use, today I spent a short time doing criminal vehicle disablement, most where succesful, one player moaned but then I gave him chance to see just how close he had come to actually blowing a Hydra out of the sky, he was a little less critical once he saw how vulnerable they are.
There are times when I have got rather annoyed/stressed and used the Hunter/Hydra to destress and I must reduce that usage for that reason.
If a criminal takes to the air, expect armed air reasponse, we are allowed to open fire without warning..
The Hydra and Hunter is NOT invincible, and I have died many a time at the controls when facing an organised team, even a combat shotgun can take them out ...
I do believe it was Gandalf that asked the cops NOT to pay for kidnappings, and that was because there was so many and we kept on asking for money, its was getting out of control.
Many players try to use real life sitautions and reasoning for doing things in the server, well sorry peps but SAMP is not that capable, there are many things you cannot do that would be possible in real life, and aactually in SAMP there are many things you can do that you cannot do in real life, its about knowing the game and what suits the limitations and gains.
Using those likitations to make a situation one sided could technically be called abuse of the SAMP scripts, not even our scripts, I hoep not to have to use that one on anyone but think how you would feel if on the disadvantaged side.
Situations should be looked at from both sides, would you be pissed off on the other side, if so, think about it....
Yes the server has headed towards a cops & robbers server, its players that have done this, you cant blame one side or the other, as it takes both sides to make it so, cops are bored without criminals and criminals would soon get bored if they were not chased.
To get out of this problem, maybe...
What we need is more players NOT doing illegal matters, not trying to make cops react, and actually trying to interact in a way that encourages others to do the same.
Less law breakers, and cops will get bored and you will get left with the long termers as the other players just doing it because it appears active and busier may actually start to do other things.
Anyone noticed that at the times when there are no criminals around cops start to go off duty ???
If you keep playing criminals then expect law enforcement.... they exist side by side.
We need more civilian and fun rp !
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I expect that from friday, there will be a LOT more firemen, so maybe fun civilian roleplay is coming...
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Well title says it all, and a recent RP situation will help me describe the problems.
And yes by co-incidence most the moaning comes from the criminals (but not all).
You should be wondering why... ill tell you.
Sometimes you expect from cops that they will be able to roleplay with you in any kind of situations, sometimes the criminal prefers to /hail instead of /gu, he gets shot. Now they dont even ask for a pull over, /su X Speed... At the end its all moaning.
Cops now, he attempts to take down a suspect, he fails, the suspect kills him, with a combat shotgun for ex, /p Stop Cop Hunting!!! /p You use combat... Lame /p HP Bug! etc... Isnt this moaning?
Thoughts
So just how often do you complain about someone for not RPing when that RP situation did not go the way you wanted it too..
How often do you turn up to a RP situation to find that only way to resolve it means less RP from you..
Consider these....
Some days ago, an undercover unit, wanted to bust me out for drug dealing, i contacted him, agreed on some conditions, met, me and another criminal frisked the two cops, took away their Radios, phones... checked for cameras or wires, they were clean, drove to Desert, gave em 2 bandanas, they put em on, went inside an unknown place, got the cash, gave it to the other criminal, he ran away with it, it was me and the 2 cops at the end, with not means to contact anyone. Everything was Totally, fully Roleplay from both sides... it was just great! 2 secondes after delivering all ammount of drugs, SWAT Suddenly broke in, /su X Drug dealing, known procedure. Now somebody tell me? How Did they know about location when they actually have no contact with the undercover cops and have no idea of the location or when it is the right time to break in... Though i still wanted to Roleplay... we got out... i had weapons and could have at least shot one of em, still i attempted to run away, but died. just some secondes after, i got a strange PM: Money back?
My answer was " Drugs back? Cause if not, and in your roleplay terms, you took the drugs, my friend got away with the cash, i died " Pretty the same thing. After all, he didnt moan or anything, he agreed and i respect him for that.
The whole point from this, is that not only criminals complain about a Roleplay situation that didnt go the way they wanted to, but certainly cops, too. Who sometimes make it go the way they want it to, while its impossible for criminals (Unfair isnt it?)
No one is to be blamed for moaning, either Criminals, or cops they are, whining cant be stopped.
No matter how flexible is the roleplay, how many are the solutions, Roleplay should be based on balanced level, Only both sides are able to make this work.
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you forgot a real #6, Fbi come in and kill everything even the hostage lol :) . had it happen to me once, it was annoying because it showed terrible RP. Although it was rather funny :roll: . As far as RP goes, this is a role play server. Not a hardcore rp server, but still...you need to role play. Its always good to leave little 'windows' open for the other role player to pick up on and give them a little advantage. Then vice versa. When i do this, its pretty fun. So just role play and have fun. Keep IC and OOC communications open. OOC planned Role play is just as fun actually.
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I can tell you most of the people moaning just largely fail to organise their teams well in large scale situations (both cops and criminals).
I don't understand why you guys always get cops, cops cops. Yeah, like said before, cops are highly unlikely to pay. Yet you're endlessly trying to get their attention. Would be much more enjoyable if a mafia would start kidnapping each other and asking ransoms between themselves, no?
Take i9 for example. Do you see them moaning all the time? No, they don't moan, because they can organize themselves VERY well (even though it doesn't look like that when you think "they're just a bunch of gangstas lined up in an open spot", but trust me, they can). Even if they have the smallest amount of support those guys can make the situation very advantadgeful for them. And fun.
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Will this bring that "Cops VS Criminals" things again?
Each one has their own members and own tactics. Not to moan, but in most of the cases, criminals loses, why?
As JayL stated, most of them are not organized. But I still going against the usage of Hunters/Hydras. Well, of course we can take them down with some accurance :lol: but they can destroy us with one shoot even in case of kidnaps, one of main reasons I deslike cops having such vehicles is because they shoot everyone who is orange, even if the hostage is in the middle of the situation, something that wouldn't happen IRL, that kind of vehicles are used by army... etc.
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In severe contrast, the criminals have no overall hierarchy governing them under one branch of control. For example, there is no ruling body to control whether [GSF] or Inferno 9 [i9] are breaking the code of conduct for criminals. This is proven through the extension of warnings, kicks and bans within the criminal base which is significantly higher then its SAPD counterpart.
There have been several attempts to realise this, hoewever without someone devoting a lot of time and having the correct contacts in both crime and law enforcement it is hard to set up such a structure. However if someone wishes to create something, I could give directions on how.
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May I just remind those that in this role-play instance, the cops opened fire first. I was originally leading this role-play, I had no intention to phone the police AT FIRST, until a few patrol officers decided to investigate what was going on provoking a response. The large scale of cars was to provide enough cover to hold until getaway vehicles where in place, when the cops opened fire it ended up in what you claim to be a "one sided role-play". Most role-play is biased towards the police force, I speak as an Ex ARPD Senior myself. Police have a lot less of a handicap than our criminal counterparts. They being the police, can weapon equip, return and outnumber criminals, I'm not saying this should be removed but - Criminals do these role-plays' (Kidnapings), because we've very few other ways to make cash. The drug system and weapon system is on such a small scale that we earn barely any money, and it isn't that fun to do.
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May I just remind those that in this role-play instance, the cops opened fire first. I was originally leading this role-play, I had no intention to phone the police AT FIRST, until a few patrol officers decided to investigate what was going on provoking a response. The large scale of cars was to provide enough cover to hold until getaway vehicles where in place, when the cops opened fire it ended up in what you claim to be a "one sided role-play". Most role-play is biased towards the police force, I speak as an Ex ARPD Senior myself. We have a lot less of a handicap than our criminal counterparts. They can weapon equip, return and outnumber criminals. Criminals do these role-plays', because we've no other ways to make cash. The drug system and weapon system is on such a small scale that we earn barely any money.
Why do you ALWAYS need to earn money?
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Why do you ALWAYS need to earn money?
I need a goal to play a game, since there is no "leveing up" systam in Argonath, I find money as that goal. Some may play it for fun, some for a challenge some just outa' bordem. I play it for a challenge.
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I need a goal to play a game, since there is no "leveing up" systam in Argonath, I find money as that goal. Some may play it for fun, some for a challenge some just outa' bordem. I play it for a challenge.
What about the 'goal' to achieve a good roleplay experience?
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What about the 'goal' to achieve a good roleplay experience?
I'd like to think my roleplays are fun, they normaly involve me paying for everything. Resulting that I need cash to be able to roleplay how I wish.
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I have read all the posts here and I am very impresed with the fact that there are a lot of good posts without moaning, flaming and other stuff we don't need for an discussion. I want to thank all those who made those great posts because this will also help me (as FBI agent) to improve my rp and create new posibilities and different rp to make it fun for both sides.
Actually it is funny that I talk about two sides. In some views it maybe two sides, but in rp's like kidnappings there are more things than criminals and cops. We got also the hostages and their family. Why isn't the family involved in most kidnappings? Since that must be the source for the payment.
I will stop typing for now since I am on my iPod... Keep this discusion up!!
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This is like your saying RP is only between cops and criminals, theres alot of other RP also where you do not even think how you will exit the RP. Most of moan about RP is cause someone did something like only superman can do or used some infromation he did not know via RP, everyone knows they dont apply in argonath I do not understand why someone moans, when I feel bad after RP and feel like moaning or saying something bad I will /q and go to paruni to DM or to CS (sometimes I start to work on photoshop also).
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Indeed, rp should not only go between the cops and the criminals, even in kidnappings. Involving other groups in the rp will create more difference, creativity and flexibility. That will result in more fun rp on all the sides. No one should ignore the rp of someone who wants to bring his creativity.
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The RP is currently going WAY beyond cops and criminals, i9 is having some great RP with Cems almost every day, if you know where to look you will be in an RP, the role play is happening inside every gang + between other gangs. Civilians RP in places like LSPD and GS9, drugdealers and weapon dealers are active everywhere. Dont know much about mafias havent seen them for a while.
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I'd like to think my roleplays are fun, they normaly involve me paying for everything. Resulting that I need cash to be able to roleplay how I wish.
Good point, but what's going to happen after you reach that goal?
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As i've said many times wile i've played, money is only a tool to RP with it's NOT a need, you can easly RP without the money if you just use your imagination.
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If i try any of those situations on the current community, i get no response at all.
This is not a complaint, this is just how things are from my point of view.
This is 100% correct. I have tried various times to /ad Painters & Car-Cleaners at GS9 with no responce at all. Yet, the suprising thing is, I open a Tattoo Parlor which is a great success. Although purely roleplay, people are still interested in comming, getting a tattoo and leaving. I guess Argonath works in mysterious ways. I agree Argonath needs more civilians but it's much harder than said. How many great business's have failed in the past? Yet, I have no solution to this problem.
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This is 100% correct. I have tried various times to /ad Painters & Car-Cleaners at GS9 with no responce at all.
Now with thoose new ad prices we don't even see theese anymore :lol:
There's nothing you can do by yourself to solve this 'problem'.
Nothing will change until majority of players decide to change attitude ;)
Believe me, even if some admins do: /ad Come to LS Ink or get banned, most won't come...
It's about making something so interesting that make players come, something attractive, something new...
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Good point, but what's going to happen after you reach that goal?
When you attain a good RP and the status of being known as a good RPer, there's only one thing for me to do: aim higher.
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There have been several attempts to realise this, hoewever without someone devoting a lot of time and having the correct contacts in both crime and law enforcement it is hard to set up such a structure. However if someone wishes to create something, I could give directions on how.
The SAPD hierarchy is admired throughout Argonath for being trustworthy, efficient and rule enforcing. This is backed up by substantial scripts which allow a ranking, demotion, promotion and reward system. It's robust and through its track record has been proven to be one of excellence.
The human aspect has been one of solid direction, with good role models such as Pancher, Vince, Jay_Adams, Hank_Rafferty and many more enforcing SAPD align values.
The question is how and if the criminal base of Argonath will benefit. What would the hierarchy look like? What type of assurance will we be given on scripts aligned to criminals? How do we choose people for being responsible?
The way I see us going forward is that we are able to select a committee of players responsible for guiding the criminal base of Argonath. It would be responsible for handling concerns, guiding players and setting our clear rules for which criminals are expected to obey. In turn, if there is exploitation - sanctions such as demotions from being a criminal should be enforced in line with our SAPD counterparts.
I encourage your view on this Gandalf and hope others can build upon this.
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In my opinion everything depends on the leaders, kidnappers' leader and police commander.
If the point of kidnap is cash, you WILL surely fail.
Both sides should keep roleplaying during the negotiation progress, even the kidnapped persons should enjoy it.
ALL the kidnaps that i've organized were a succes for the both sides
Criminals got the money (usually 20k$ to cover armour cost) and some of them managed to get away with it
Cops got the hostage(s) and arrested/killed some of the criminals.
Thats really how all of them ended. Police commanders were different persons each time but they all controlled the operations very carefully and realistic as same as we did. You can ask to people who have been to these kidnaps or check the GSF topic. It was fun for both sides and at the end of action both sides congratulated each other on main chat. Thats what i call fun and RP.
Players should respect others because thats how they can enjoy playing a game, not because rules says so.
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There is one single way that the standard "ghost" Araatus kidnap can be stopped, and nobody has figured it out yet, or if they have they haven't been able to do it successfully yet. It does however fall into this category:
3 Cops negotiate to get time, pay then go after kidnappers after hostage released
That is just a risk you have to take with the tactic we use.
We would always use the same one every time, almost without any changes at all. It wasn't almightily hard to stop, in fact with CBFasi/Pancher on the server the cops have a severely increased success chance, wink wink.
I think we give a fair chance, but yea - we're not going to make it obscenely easy for the cops to kill us and save the hostage.
We also only ever ask 10k, which covers our costs and nothing else.
We do it for the fun, not the cash.
Offtopic, by immature mind picked this out:
Be fair in your play to all, not just yourself.
Yea guys, you should be fair all the time, not just when you play with yourself.
:3
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What type of assurance will we be given on scripts aligned to criminals?
This is one I can answer, and those that remember my criminal leaders meetings will be aware I try to listen, and even have made changes.
I cannot give full assurance, but if there is script changes that are presented and well thought out, particulary in the risk of abuse area then it will be seriously considered. Just do not expect me to rush..
Do not forget it was technically the Chief of Police that introduced cheaper weapons for all, also the same Chief of Police who introduced a way for criminals to escape..
I maybe Chief of Police but when it comes to scritping I work all, not just police, even if some think I just deal with Police. (and police are just starting to notice how things are getting harder for them with script restrictions getting added)
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Its not that we want cops to have less or have it harder, that won't help anyone.
I have always seen the scripts as cop based, which at the moment they are in my opinion. I guess I was just disappointed that not a single one of my ideas from the criminal leaders meeting got a mention in RS4, despite the fact that I suggested many different ones.
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This is one I can answer, and those that remember my criminal leaders meetings will be aware I try to listen, and even have made changes.
The SAPD hierachy at present can in my view be adapted to the criminal world. This is considering the amount of testing in this field in which malpractise has been eradicated.
For example, ranks such as 'Officer' and 'Freecop' can be changed to 'Rookie criminal' and 'Veteran criminal'
I encourage all leaders from SA:MP Groups and other influential figures to voice your view.
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Its not that we want cops to have less or have it harder, that won't help anyone.
I have always seen the scripts as cop based, which at the moment they are in my opinion. I guess I was just disappointed that not a single one of my ideas from the criminal leaders meeting got a mention in RS4, despite the fact that I suggested many different ones.
Your right they where not in RS4, but watch the future, some of yur ideas required many other changes to take place first.
And I will be hoping to arrange a meeting in the not too distant future
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CBF, if you want players not to be on cop/criminal duty theres pretty much things you can do about it.
1) Create civilian jobs and things what would FORCE others to use them cause otherwise 2/10 use them.
Ex: If car gets on black smoke you cant drive with anymore and you need to call an towtruck.
Ex: You will have sugar disease and you need to watch the sweets you eat, if it gets low you can buy an icecream
Ex: You will have an sickness like cough and you need an shop to buy medicense against it or you could create doctor offices so that doctor would give him the license to buy medication and will give an free time from job (he would still be paid just that he is sick and dosent need to work)
Ex: You need to eat in every 5 hours to keep your stomatch filled, otherwise your energy will go down (Would raise income and RP in dining areas)
Ex: If you buy new house you need to invite in an crew of constructors who will take your funiture inside or you can transport it yourself.
Theres alot more I could think of but these are just examples of first things what came to my idea what would make more civilian jobs and would make more civilians instead of criminals who earn money in illegal way and end up in shootout.
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CBF, if you want players not to be on cop/criminal duty theres pretty much things you can do about it.
1) Create civilian jobs and things what would FORCE others to use them cause otherwise 2/10 use them.
Ex: If car gets on black smoke you cant drive with anymore and you need to call an towtruck.
Ex: You will have sugar disease and you need to watch the sweets you eat, if it gets low you can buy an icecream
Ex: You will have an sickness like cough and you need an shop to buy medicense against it or you could create doctor offices so that doctor would give him the license to buy medication and will give an free time from job (he would still be paid just that he is sick and dosent need to work)
Ex: You need to eat in every 5 hours to keep your stomatch filled, otherwise your energy will go down (Would raise income and RP in dining areas)
Ex: If you buy new house you need to invite in an crew of constructors who will take your funiture inside or you can transport it yourself.
Theres alot more I could think of but these are just examples of first things what came to my idea what would make more civilian jobs and would make more civilians instead of criminals who earn money in illegal way and end up in shootout.
You can add this: Cars can be locked by their owners, so Taxi... Transport jobs, become enjoyable to roleplay.
But again, they say this is not a strict roleplay, its RPG, but more like a freeroam where you can stunt, DM (+), roleplay...
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Abit of force could make RP Two Sided and more unlike Cops and robbers.
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1) Create civilian jobs and things what would FORCE others to use them cause otherwise 2/10 use them.
This would contradict the Argonath Vision, we're not about forcing people.
And a central Criminal Hierarchy would be currently impossible, since the many different factions would bicker among themselves, not to mention that many of their members would lack the required discipline needed in order to make the Criminals operate as a single well-organized organization.
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This would contradict the Argonath Vision, we're not about forcing people.
And a central Criminal Hierarchy would be currently impossible, since the many different factions would bicker among themselves, not to mention that many of their members would lack the required discipline needed in order to make the Criminals operate as a single well-organized organization.
making just civilian jobs with some high payday woudlnt help cause everyone would be working not using the services.
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How about making scripted jobs connected in a loop/cycle. Make a few job loops so people can choose their job. Pay the workers after a loop is finished and a final product is sold. Something like that...
Oh, and if criminals want additional scripts - make them able to break the loop and earn money on it. That way cops and security companies will have work to do ;)
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How about making scripted jobs connected in a loop/cycle. Make a few job loops so people can choose their job. Pay the workers after a loop is finished and a final product is sold. Something like that...
Oh, and if criminals want additional scripts - make them able to break the loop and earn money on it. That way cops and security companies will have work to do ;)
Would be good, the ability to smuggle in weapons insteed of buying from ammunation all the time, would also be a good idea. It would increase roleplay, and provide groups such as coastguard to be opened.
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Yes, that's actually the point of RP. Nearly EVERYONE is out for succeeding in his RP actions, but yeah, it's just a person you role-play, not yourself.