Argonath RPG - A World of its own
GTA:VC => VC:MP - Vice City Multiplayer => VC:MP General => Topic started by: Davron on June 24, 2012, 06:01:17 pm
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Today, [WS]Shadow brought to my attention that ARPD have the officers ranked as:
Anyone that becomes a cop is considered as ARPD Officer,
Anyone applied and become a cadet + ARPD Officers are consider as VCPD.
I found this utterly foolish for many reasons..
If a "free cop" is corrupt they have the title of ARPD and if civilians report him to higher ranked personnel, the ARPD name can be affected and they wont be properly punished.
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Today, [WS]Shadow brought to my attention that ARPD have the officers ranked as:
Anyone that becomes a cop is considered as ARPD Officer,
Anyone applied and become a cadet + ARPD Officers are consider as VCPD.
I found this utterly foolish for many reasons..
If a "free cop" is corrupt they have the title of ARPD and if civilians report him to higher ranked personnel, the ARPD name can be affected and they wont be properly punished.
ARPD Officers are part of ARPD for a reason. It has always been like this in ALL of Argo.
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ARPD Officers are part of ARPD for a reason. It has always been like this in ALL of Argo.
What Neal is saying, is that any cop is ranked as ARPD Officer now. When a reqular uses /c rank ArchAngelTyrael (I just had to) he'll see that the cop is ARPD officer and then report it to ARPD, who really can't do anything (unless Legend picks up admin duty at the same time) :razz:
Every cop (the players that just registered) should not be ranked as ARPD officers, but VCPD officers (I think).
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Thought I'd reply to clear this one up -
ARPD across Argonath is the general term for all police units, no matter of position/affiliations.
Within the ARPD comes the official police forces, including the VCPD, SAPD, LCPD etc...
As is the same with the fire department, the ARFD, which also has its respective FDVC and so on.
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Thought I'd reply to clear this one up -
ARPD across Argonath is the general term for all police units, no matter of position/affiliations.
Within the ARPD comes the official police forces, including the VCPD, SAPD, LCPD etc...
As is the same with the fire department, the ARFD, which also has its respective FDVC and so on.
Exactly.
What Neal is saying, is that any cop is ranked as ARPD Officer now.
If there is an issue with /rank, then that is a script issue, and not an ARPD one. Anyone on police duty is considered as part of ARPD. If they are in an official police group also, such as VC:MP VCPD, then they can be a VCPD Cadet or above, but they are still also part of ARPD, as it is the entire grouping of all Law Enforcement in the community, as Legend said. If a VCPD Cadet or above simply shows up as "ARPD Officer" when ranking them in the scripts, then someone caused a script or database issue, or assigned the wrong rank to someone. If he is saying that ARPD Officers should never exist, and that "Freecops" should be VCPD Officers, that wouldn't be correct as they are not officially in VCPD, just ARPD. That is why they have the freedom in this community to go on police duty without having to join an official Law Enforcement group first.
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ARPD Officers are part of ARPD for a reason. It has always been like this in ALL of Argo.
Not quite. Freecops were added to the ARPD less than 2-3 years ago, hence the confusion with old players (people used to "join the ARPD").
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Not quite. Freecops were added to the ARPD less than 2-3 years ago, hence the confusion with old players (people used to "join the ARPD").
They weren't actually added. They had always existed...just not by name. What happened was originally MTA:VC VCPD was the only PD, and thus the community called it ARPD. When SA:MP joined the scene, they had to adjust things to what was mentioned above due to multiple Departments now existing under the umbrella that is ARPD.
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Oh, sorry then, it's my mistake :razz:
I always thought VCPD was the whole shizzle and ARPD was a part of it, exactly for the reason that you need to "join/apply" for ARPD.
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Eh finally you get the point.
If everyone who went cop was a VCPD Officer we'd get so many ****ing reports about Dmers/Abuse of /c sus, etc.
That's why we call them ARPD Officers. This is also why the VCMP Argonath email is probably full of reports of abusive ARPD Officers... (Not saying all are)
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I can create a board to report ARPD Officers under VCPD's section.. Equivalent to SAPD's one.
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I can create a board to report ARPD Officers under VCPD's section.. Equivalent to SAPD's one.
Leggy we have an idea here!
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I can create a board to report ARPD Officers under VCPD's section.. Equivalent to SAPD's one.
Paul, the problem is that only SA:MP SAPD has been granted the rights to deal with such users. The other servers have been left in the dark to basically figure it out for themselves.
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Paul, the problem is that only SA:MP SAPD has been granted the rights to deal with such users. The other servers have been left in the dark to basically figure it out for themselves.
In what areas do you mean by "granted" ?
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In what areas do you mean by "granted" ?
Gandalf, a couple years ago, gave SA:MP SAPD the permission and scripted ability to deal with corrupt ARPD Officers that were not in SA:MP SAPD. Only SA:MP SAPD has this ability. No other official PD in ARPD has the ability to handle corruption caused by ARPD Officers.
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In what areas do you mean by "granted" ?
He means that the VC:MP VCPD is unable to copban and, by itself, has no jurisdiction over ARPD officers whatsoever due to script limitations.
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...due to script limitations.
And rules set by the Server Owners.
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Yea unfortunately we can't deal with ARPD Officers. I think a little help from a report I tried to file a while ago should help here.
Please keep in mind as well that the copban commands are not available to all VCPD Command Staff until RS2.0, meaning we do not have direct methods of sanctioning ARPD Officers for extended periods of time.
We have to directly rely on the VC:MP Adminstration to deal with these problems until RS2.0 As JDC as explained.
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I guess you'll have to discuss it with the ARPD Leaders, try contact Jaaskaa or Gandalf.
Good luck.
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The ARPD and VCPD namings, officiality - easily confused, but hopefully no biggie.
Few years back, ARPD was colloquially the term used for an official member (or department) of a police force.
The term 'freecop' extends further back, I think.
Another thing is, both the site and forums are named under the Argonath RPG Police Department (ARPD), and the basis of the official departments, although unofficial roleplay police forces/departments are also welcome to join in on activities there.
As for reporting ARPD officers ('freecops' 'freelance officers'), while the VCPD doesn't generally manage them, as Gandalf posted a few days back, those within an official police department are "senior" - it's a little hard to fully describe, but hope you get it :P - to general cops, and while they cannot make forceful orders, they can to an extent organise or lead them, situation dependent.
The hope is that the VC:MP Admin Team can handle rulebreakers and so on who are on police duty.
There was also a pitch at allowing senior members of the VCPD to access copban, uncrime (or similar) features.
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if you ask me any VCPD officer should be able to uncrime (except for cadets and ARPD officers), as 1 report of abusing that command would most likely result in consequence, whereas vcpd senior officers should be able to copban and uncrime
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We have admins to uncrime and copban..
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We have admins to uncrime and copban..
This notion also restricts the possibility of arrest investigations and revoking corrupt officers' badges, making it more difficult for ARPD to govern itself.
On another note, copbans need to be used more often -- admins (myself included) tend to instinctively warn, kill, kick, and tempban people running around as an officer shooting everyone when we could simply discourage that by using more copbans.
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restricts the possibility of arrest investigations and revoking corrupt officers' badges, making it more difficult for ARPD to govern itself.
Not really, since ARPD itself consists of admins.
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Not really, since ARPD itself consists of admins.
And if it didn't?
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Not really, since ARPD itself consists of admins.
It should never be based on such since rights aren't automatically granted to VC:MP VCPD Command Staff.
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Admins only should have rights over this because the cop bans would be made limited. If ARPD members get charge of this, a day will come when their would be so less people who can become cops.
Well, as cop ban plays in integral part in scripts, but its also important to increase the cops in the server. Because, people do learn after making mistakes. And their are already less cops (general population ) on server these days.
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Admins only should have rights over this because the cop bans would be made limited. If ARPD members get charge of this, a day will come when their would be so less people who can become cops.
Well, as cop ban plays in integral part in scripts, but its also important to increase the cops in the server. Because, people do learn after making mistakes. And their are already less cops (general population ) on server these days.
Why would there be less cops? If a user is breaking the duty rules repeatedly on purpose after given guidance, then they shouldn't be allowed to use the duty until they learn to use it correctly. It shouldn't matter who issues the copban as the user would get it regardless.
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Not really, since ARPD itself consists of admins.
Err no...
The only admins in there are Axxo, Legend and Marcus
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The only admins in there are Axxo, Legend and Marcus
*cough*
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Err no...
The only admins in there are Axxo, Legend and Marcus
.................................
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Err no...
The only admins in there are Axxo, Legend and Marcus
It seems you did not understand what he wrote.
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The job of the Administrative team is different from that of the VC:MP VCPD Command Staff's. Admins would copban for breaking server rules on the duty skin, whereas VC:MP VCPD Command Staff would copban based on corrupt actions taken while on duty. It's not the Admin's job to handle RP'ed corruption, nor is it VC:MP VCPD Command Staff's job to do administrative server work, hence why both should have the ability to copban users. If a user just happens to be in both groups, that is purely a coincidence.
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The job of the Administrative team is different from that of the VC:MP VCPD Command Staff's. Admins would copban for breaking server rules on the duty skin, whereas VC:MP VCPD Command Staff would copban based on corrupt actions taken while on duty. It's not the Admin's job to handle RP'ed corruption, nor is it VC:MP VCPD Command Staff's job to do administrative server work, hence why both should have the ability to copban users. If a user just happens to be in both groups, that is purely a coincidence.
VCMPs playerbase is so small that it'd give copban rights to 4(?) new players? I see pros and cons of this, but to me it's not really a problem if Senior officers+ can copban.
EDIT: With "new players" I mean ARPD staff with rank higher than senior officer.
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Well I wouldn't personally give it to Senior Officers either, but that's just my personal opinion. I do agree that VC:MP VCPD Command Staff should have the ability though.
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Well I wouldn't personally give it to Senior Officers either, but that's just my personal opinion. I do agree that VC:MP VCPD Command Staff should have the ability though.
That consist of Admins already.
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If players are command staff, they're trusted not to screw up with these commands, and chances are they're already administrators (but maybe not). If they screw up, you punish them. So my question is, what exactly is the problem with formally giving some rights to them? I've already asked what the big deal is and the only response I've gotten is "They're not admins," and personally I don't see that as sufficient unless untreatable abuse can be pointed out.
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If players are command staff, they're trusted not to screw up with these commands, and chances are they're already administrators (but maybe not). If they screw up, you punish them. So my question is, what exactly is the problem with formally giving some rights to them? I've already asked what the big deal is and the only response I've gotten is "They're not admins," and personally I don't see that as sufficient unless untreatable abuse can be pointed out.
There is no problem as I said, but what's the real point of giving ARPD command staff the right to copban when it already is made of lvl 3 (or higher) admins who can copban?
Uncrime I could give to FBI and ARPD command staff. Copban only for admins imo as it should rather be used as a punishment (harder than words or a warn). ARPD can deal with admins about (free)cops who abuse their rights.
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Cop ban for corrupt cops WTF?
Now you want to say, I cant become a corrupt cop... What is the use of bribing? Get that cop cop-ban...
Get to the hands of law, give that cop a penalty and work things out manually.
That's why I said, no authority to ARPD on cop- banning people...
Cop ban to be provoked only if cops DM. (AND this comes very much under every admin's authority.)
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Get to the hands of law, give that cop a penalty and work things out manually.
What penalty, exactly? You can't take away their badge despite the fact that they're corrupt. Look at this court case (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/forum/index.php?topic=83565.0) for example; corrupt cop goes on-duty, conspires with bank robbers, feeds false information back to HQ, and then shoots down the Deputy Chief's helicopter. What are we supposed to do, take away his donuts?
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What penalty, exactly? You can't take away their badge despite the fact that they're corrupt. Look at this court case (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/forum/index.php?topic=83565.0) for example; corrupt cop goes on-duty, conspires with bank robbers, feeds false information back to HQ, and then shoots down the Deputy Chief's helicopter. What are we supposed to do, take away his donuts?
Can you even copban an admin?
Anyways, I'd suggest to "freeze" his bank account and take away ~10% funds to repay the damage that has been dealt. IF the cop gets caught, of course (log check would not approve and it'd need a court case, not straightout admin act).
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Monetary punishment does not fit certain actions such as overuse of violence or helping criminals when on duty by shooting at other cops
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Look, no administrative power will be given to those who are part of a roleplaying group. It's as simple as that. Administrative powers such as banning players are solely for the admin team to enforce the rules; not to enforce roleplay punishment.
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Look, no administrative power will be given to those who are part of a roleplaying group. It's as simple as that. Administrative powers such as banning players are solely for the admin team to enforce the rules; not to enforce roleplay punishment.
You mean like /c enable and /c disable?
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I don't think all the commands we've talked about here are necessarily administrative.
/c uncrime seems fine as a tool for VCPD senior staff as they'd be able to use it if an investigation clears someone's charges, for instance, or if they are released on some sort of bail for roleplay purposes.
A cop ban function that goes beyond A-Team might be more debatable. The ban is not an outright permanent ban from being a police officer, just to mention, by the way.
Maybe it'd be best to encourage VCPD seniors to hold up good communication with Admin staff to solve problems if and when necessary.
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VCPD seniors to hold up good communication with Admin staff
Since the head figures of VCPD are admins themselves I'd be surprised that they don't already have good communication with the admin staff.
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Since the head figures of VCPD are admins themselves I'd be surprised that they don't already have good communication with the admin staff.
I also wanted to involve more senior (non-"Command Staff") players in the VCPD that aren't Admins. :)
Of course, we may not always be around.
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Look, no administrative power will be given to those who are part of a roleplaying group. It's as simple as that. Administrative powers such as banning players are solely for the admin team to enforce the rules; not to enforce roleplay punishment.
Copban doesn't have to be an administrative command. If a cop is roleplaying being corrupt, then technically VC:MP VCPD Command Staff copbanning them would be a RP matter, not an administrative one, since they would be removing their legal right to go on duty.
I don't think all the commands we've talked about here are necessarily administrative.
/c uncrime seems fine as a tool for VCPD senior staff as they'd be able to use it if an investigation clears someone's charges, for instance, or if they are released on some sort of bail for roleplay purposes.
A cop ban function that goes beyond A-Team might be more debatable. The ban is not an outright permanent ban from being a police officer, just to mention, by the way.
Maybe it'd be best to encourage VCPD seniors to hold up good communication with Admin staff to solve problems if and when necessary.
I agree that VCPD, as well as all players, should keep up good communication with the administrative team, but that seems redundant in a RP'ed situation where admins aren't allowed to intervene as it's not an administrative matter.
As long as the command is only available to Command Staff, I don't see an issue with it. If it were Senior Officers+, then I'd be concerned and wouldn't agree with it.
Since the head figures of VCPD are admins themselves I'd be surprised that they don't already have good communication with the admin staff.
Why make them reliant, though? As long as you set out rules on what each is allowed to use the command for, there shouldn't be an issue with using it. If they abuse it, they'd be dealt with just like anyone else abusing commands.
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That consist of Admins already.
Since the head figures of VCPD are admins themselves
*cough*
Look, no administrative power will be given to those who are part of a roleplaying group. It's as simple as that. Administrative powers such as banning players are solely for the admin team to enforce the rules; not to enforce roleplay punishment.
Then this leaves entities such as FBI without any means to carry out the job of incapacitating corrupt police officers.
Once again, this purpose of the VCPD having the command is not an administrative one, but rather one that would allow us to directly stem the corrupt activities from certain officers. More than once, freecops (and the occasional rogue VCPD officer) have been reported to us, only for the reporter to forget that we have no way of controlling the people they are reporting.
There have been complaints that we (VCPD, and particularly FBI) are not doing a very good job in regulating corrupt officers, when we don't even have the necessary tools (i.e: No copban, cannot suspect / jail corrupt cops) to carry out that job. :redface:
If you examined the SA:MP system and how the departments' usage of copban is regulated, then you will see how SAPD and FBI are capable of preventing corrupt individuals from using cop duty for their own purposes.
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Copban is and most likely will stay as administrator command.
Uncrime, tho', from my opinion could be given to FBI (NOT temp ones). SWAT doesn't need uncrime, neither does higher level cops (since they already become to show up as admins).
Also, if you have gotten reports of corrupt cops (assuming you mean they do not break rules) then why not contact admin about it anyways? You have Chief (lvl 3), Deputy Chief (lvl 3), FBI Agent (maybe some nicer rank with lvl 5). You have enough "powers" to solve these problems also, if only you just communicated once in a while and shared the reports and such...
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Copban is and most likely will stay as administrator command.
Uncrime, tho', from my opinion could be given to FBI (NOT temp ones). SWAT doesn't need uncrime, neither does higher level cops (since they already become to show up as admins).
Also, if you have gotten reports of corrupt cops (assuming you mean they do not break rules) then why not contact admin about it anyways? You have Chief (lvl 3), Deputy Chief (lvl 3), FBI Agent (maybe some nicer rank with lvl 5). You have enough "powers" to solve these problems also, if only you just communicated once in a while and shared the reports and such...
I agree on the SWAT and FBI parts, but corrupt cops are not an administrative issue, so why would you contact admins for that? Breaking the rules resulting in copbans become an administrative issue, but corrupt cop roleplays that lead to them do not. It'd make no sense for an admin to get involved in a non-administrative issue in a roleplay.
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Also, if you have gotten reports of corrupt cops (assuming you mean they do not break rules) then why not contact admin about it anyways?
Unless there is a server rule that says "You cannot be a corrupt cop," then it is not an administrative issue. And note that corruption is not limited to false suspecting and killing surrendered suspects. There's also extortion, drug dealing, conspiring with criminals, sabotaging evidence, RPing a prison break, blackmail, fraud, etc., etc., etc...
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So.. if lets says newbie236 accepted a bribe, you'd want to ban him from playing as police for several hours as punishment? IMO thats just harsh, since players are free to roleplay as a corrupt cop if they want. They shouldn't have their rights to play as police taken away because of one roleplay scenario. There are better ways to deal with it.
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I remember I jailed Alarba for 15 seconds as his crime was pissing in public place so I thought the punishment should be light, and got copbanned for the whole day due to corruption lol
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So.. if lets says newbie236 accepted a bribe, you'd want to ban him from playing as police for several hours as punishment? IMO thats just harsh, since players are free to roleplay as a corrupt cop if they want. They shouldn't have their rights to play as police taken away because of one roleplay scenario. There are better ways to deal with it.
Well that's why admins wouldn't be copbanning them. Corrupt roleplay is perfectly fine in Argo, as was said in other places before. If you get caught in a RP way, however, being stripped of your badge would make sense.
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Well that's why admins wouldn't be copbanning them. Corrupt roleplay is perfectly fine in Argo, as was said in other places before. If you get caught in a RP way, however, being stripped of your badge would make sense.
Feels kinda like ARPD wants a ragecopban command when someone uses /c bribe :roll:
Anyways, copban I do not want to see on none else but admins since it's always a command for punishment. If you want someone copbanned so bad, just contact admin. I'm sure admins do have the time to fix up a /c copban command.
-Ignore what I may have said earlier, points brought up may have affected my opinion-
As for uncrime, what does klaus have to say for that? Would that command be ok for FBI? ((I wouldn't give them to anyone else, maybe senior officer+ (means not even senior officers have it, but higher)))
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Feels kinda like ARPD wants a ragecopban command when someone uses /c bribe :roll:
I don't see how since I'm not in ARPD in VC:MP, and I suggested it only for VC:MP VCPD's Command Staff to use... :P
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Without a mechanism to directly control law enforcers who go out of line, FBI is effectively useless when trying to control corrupt cops, for a reason beyond its control.
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Let me ask you this question and I hope you people answer it:
Why should players (mostly new) be punished for doing a roleplay? I know you would insta copban him for playing as corrupt cop when EAF offered him some cash.
And then the next question: How long copbans would you give, say to me, if I were a corrupt cop who "saved" all furies from the "wrath" of ARPD? :devroll:
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/c uncrime, like said before, could be really useful for investigative purposes.
You'd expect A-Team to deal with any misuse in the commands (i.e. false suspecting), but should the case occur when an Admin is unavailable, after an investigation if a suspect is cleared of any criminal acts, a VCPD member with the right permissions could uncrime them.
/c copban becomes way more sketchy, as Kessu, Klaus and others have pointed out.
I don't think all the commands we've talked about here are necessarily administrative.
/c uncrime seems fine as a tool for VCPD senior staff as they'd be able to use it if an investigation clears someone's charges, for instance, or if they are released on some sort of bail for roleplay purposes.
A cop ban function that goes beyond A-Team might be more debatable. The ban is not an outright permanent ban from being a police officer, just to mention, by the way.
Maybe it'd be best to encourage VCPD seniors to hold up good communication with Admin staff to solve problems if and when necessary.
Would be really good if actions/punishments for insubordination - say if you were found out for being corrupt/doing "bad things" on duty - could be just roleplayed. Maybe the violator could get a suspension from work, but this would all be dependent on the good will of those taking part in the situation.
Of course, a restrictive command would govern that, but shouldn't be #1 on the list I feel.
I personally try not to mix up my own roles - especially administrative ones with more roleplay ones.
Hopefully those around me know that I rarely intertwine Administrator with clan lead or police head responsibilities on tasks, as they all deserve certain levels of dedication, so I find it is best not to cross things over.
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imo
cops should be able to unsuspect, suspect lower ranked cops, but not copban
if someone roleplays a corrupt cop and decides to shoot a suspect who surrendered in roleplay matter due to personal reasons, you'd copban him for weeks...instead you're meant to take evidence (make a screenie) then suspect him for breaking the vcpd rules (w/e its called) and take him into custody...