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Argonath RPG Community => Speakerbox => World and local news => Topic started by: NitrOx on September 24, 2012, 03:52:49 pm

Title: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: NitrOx on September 24, 2012, 03:52:49 pm
Hi everybody,

I am doing research on the U.S. second amendement right and would like to hear your opinion on the following motion:

Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns?

I personally think that U.S. Citizens should be allowed to carry firearms because it only takes a moment for a murderer to shoot an individual, and it takes an average of 11 minutes in the U.S. for a 911 call to be responded to. Yet, the use of firearms could be lifesaving.

This subject has come into discussion even more after the Batman killings.

What do you think?

-NitrOx
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Ratko Gavrilovic on September 24, 2012, 04:13:40 pm
You shouldn't have made this topic.
Obviously some individuals here don't use their brains before posting.

If you want my say on it;
Hell no.
America has a shitload of citizens, and if everyone would have a gun it would be an uncontrollable chaos.
Don't give me that self protection bs either. Guns are only used for crime by civilians over there.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: NitrOx on September 24, 2012, 04:26:21 pm
There are strict gun-controls on weapons in the U.S. With citizens I mean the people who do not have a criminal record or are mentally ill.

Also, I would like to ask you, do you not think that if the right to own a gun (2nd amendement) would be banned, this would only lead to a big rise in weapons import and a criminal monopoly on guns and a rise in violence?

For example,

Criminal wants to kill someone. It is banned to use/carry guns. Criminal knows this and knows that his victim is probably unarmed - he would be more intrigued to shoot and kill his victim then if there is a 2nd amendement right which would make it more likely that his victim is armed and prepared to defend himself.

Also, if it were banned, people would be able to get their hands on guns illegally anyways.

Do you know what happened for example in the United Kingdom?

In 1997, a new gun act was applied in the U.K. forbidding the carrying on handguns etc. About 2,400 violent fire-arm edit: offences were noticed in that year. However, in fourteen years time, this number has increased to around -+ 11,000 offences* in the U.K.

This number has not had such a rise in the U.S. where the carrying of arms are allowed.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Reece on September 24, 2012, 04:38:20 pm
In 1997, a new gun act was applied in the U.K. forbidding the carrying on handguns etc. About 2,400 violent fire-arm homicides were noticed in that year. However, in fourteen years time, this number has increased to around -+ 11,000 killings in the U.K.

First of all, provide a source for your numbers.

Second of all, providing you with a source I can tell you there was only 41 people murdered by a firearm in 2009, here in England and Wales, and 5 in Northern Ireland, this is compared with 10300 in the United States in the same year.

http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/Homicide/Homicides_by_firearms.xls (http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/Homicide/Homicides_by_firearms.xls)

And to your question, no, I do not believe citizens should be allowed to carry weapons for the numbers provided above. It is extremely difficult to get hold of a gun both legally and illegal here, and I am glad it is that way.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: NitrOx on September 24, 2012, 04:46:32 pm
First of all, provide a source for your numbers.

Second of all, providing you with a source I can tell you there was only 41 people murdered by a firearm in 2009, here in England and Wales, and 5 in Northern Ireland, this is compared with 10300 in the United States in the same year.

http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/Homicide/Homicides_by_firearms.xls (http://www.unodc.org/documents/data-and-analysis/statistics/Homicide/Homicides_by_firearms.xls)

And to your question, no, I do not believe citizens should be allowed to carry weapons for the numbers provided above. It is extremely difficult to get hold of a gun both legally and illegal here, and I am glad it is that way.

I made a mistake - instead of killings - Firearms offences.

In the year Apr 2010 to Mar 2011 there were 11,227 recorded offences involving firearms, broken down as follows.
By weapon type:
Long-barrelled shotgun = 406
Sawn-off shotgun = 202
Handgun = 3,105
Rifle = 74
Imitation firearm = 1,610
Unidentified firearm = 957
Other firearm = 670
Air weapons = 4,203
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Gandalf on September 24, 2012, 04:48:56 pm
If you would have followed the discussion on firearms in earlier topics, you would notice that there is a factor 10 difference in firearm deaths after correction for population.
This means a country where people are allowed to cary firearms freely causes 10 times more people to die as a country where this is not allowed.

A small price to pay for  false feeling of personal safety ?
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Reece on September 24, 2012, 04:50:47 pm
I made a mistake - instead of killings - Firearms offences.

In the year Apr 2010 to Mar 2011 there were 11,227 recorded offences involving firearms, broken down as follows.
By weapon type:
Long-barrelled shotgun = 406
Sawn-off shotgun = 202
Handgun = 3,105
Rifle = 74
Imitation firearm = 1,610
Unidentified firearm = 957
Other firearm = 670
Air weapons = 4,203

You still haven't provided a source.

Here is some more information for you:

In the US – population 311.5 million (1) – there were an estimated 13,756 murders in 2009 (2), a rate of about 5.0 per 100,000 (3). Of these 9,203 were carried out with a firearm.

In the UK – population 56.1 million (4) – there were an estimated 550 murders in 2011-12 (5), a rate of about 1.4 per 100,000. Of these 39 were carried out with a firearm (6).

References

(1) United States Census Bureau (undated). State and Country Quick Facts. Available from: http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html (http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/00000.html)

(2) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 310. Murder Victims – Circumstances and Weapons Used or Cause of Death: 2000-2009. Available from http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdf (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0310.pdf)

(3) United States Census Bureau (2012) 2012 Statistical Abstract – Table 306. Crimes and Crime Rates by Type of Offence: 1980-2009. Available from:  http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0306.pdf (http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/2012/tables/12s0306.pdf)

(4) Office for National Statistics (2011). 2011 Census Home. Available from: http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/census/2011/index.html (http://www.ons.gov.uk/ons/guide-method/census/2011/index.html)

(5) Home Office (2012). Historical Crime Data. Available from: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/historical-crime-data/ (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/historical-crime-data/)

(6) Home Office (2010). Home Office Statistical Bulletin. Homicides, Firearm Offences and Intimate Violence 2008/09. Available from: http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110.pdf (http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20110218135832/http://rds.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs10/hosb0110.pdf)


EDIT: I found your source, wikipedia... information used incorrectly once more:

(http://i.imm.io/Fuwd.png)

Information on crime in the US, you do the math

http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state (http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jan/10/gun-crime-us-state)
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Megamidget on September 24, 2012, 04:53:23 pm
It is the one thing i do feel strongly about, i dont think people should carry firearms, they are not needed. I would find it very disturbing knowing every single person around me is armed, what if that person is having a really bad day, their not seeing straight when they bump into the person that is the source of their problem, having a gun on them would probably be very tempting and there you have it yet another killing. I know that a situation like that is a long shot but i am sure it has happened before.

Guns cause more problems than they solve, here in the UK where weapons are very rare and difficult to obtain there are as reece pointed out very few gun crimes, this coupled with a unarmed police force means criminals do not feel the need to carry weapons further reducing firearm incidents
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: NitrOx on September 24, 2012, 04:54:54 pm
If you would have followed the discussion on firearms in earlier topics, you would notice that there is a factor 10 difference in firearm deaths after correction for population.
This means a country where people are allowed to cary firearms freely causes 10 times more people to die as a country where this is not allowed.

A small price to pay for  false feeling of personal safety ?

No, I have not read these topics.

Do you think the 2nd amendement right should be banned? - will you not think that this might create a criminal monopoly on weaponary and an increase of violent crime rates and an much higher import of guns/criminal trade?



Post Merge: September 24, 2012, 04:57:13 pm
And yeah, Reece, I used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom) for the above figures regarding the U.K.

A source which I trust but which, you are right, is unreliable.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Reece on September 24, 2012, 05:01:38 pm

And yeah, Reece, I used http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_politics_in_the_United_Kingdom) for the above figures regarding the U.K.

A source which I trust but which, you are right, is unreliable.

The information comes from here: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb0212/hosb0212?view=Binary (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/publications/science-research-statistics/research-statistics/crime-research/hosb0212/hosb0212?view=Binary)

Use this for information from 2000 regarding the US: http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2000.html (http://webappa.cdc.gov/sasweb/ncipc/nfirates2000.html)
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: NitrOx on September 24, 2012, 05:02:26 pm
@Reece:

What I am trying to state above is that after the use of guns was banned in 1997, the use of guns in crime rose in the United Kingdom.

SOURCE:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm)

So - would it be wise to ban guns in the U.S. aswell?
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Reece on September 24, 2012, 05:11:40 pm
@Reece:

What I am trying to state above is that after the use of guns was banned in 1997, the use of guns in crime rose in the United Kingdom.

SOURCE:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm)

So - would it be wise to ban guns in the U.S. aswell?

While use of guns in crime may have risen here, this is due to gang culture which is a major problem here - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1223193/Culture-violence-Gun-crime-goes-89-decade.html) the actual number of murders using a firearm has barely changed

95 - 2009
(http://i.imm.io/FuCz.png)

95-2010
(http://i.imm.io/FuD1.png)
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Gandalf on September 24, 2012, 05:12:44 pm
I am pretty sure the data is unreliable, as in 1999 there were 16946 offences, which would be 8x more in 2 years. That would most certainly have been reported.
Most likely someone reduced the offences by a factor 10 to make it look better.

As for the Second Amendment, its up to the USA to judge over it. I am sure a very large number of States would heavily oppose it, even to the level of threatening to leave the Union.

There is a cultural difference between the USA and Europe, which stems from the wild and violent background of how the USA was formed. People migrating there in early days literally could not survive without a gun, and also frequently had to defend themselves against groups of bandits as well as fights between States. This is the origin of the Second Amendment, and it is going to be hard to convince people that after 300 years it should be changed.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Gandalf on September 24, 2012, 05:17:41 pm
If you want clear data, use this link:http://www.gun-control-network.org/A018.htm (http://www.gun-control-network.org/A018.htm)
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: clancker on September 24, 2012, 05:27:23 pm
Here is my option they should have rights to carry firearms but 1st they have to pass a lesson how to use the pistol and the only pistol that  can be allowed with out license to be Glock
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Kizzu on September 25, 2012, 09:05:23 am
People should be able to carry a gun for self-protection, but it needs to be a civilized society ie. Switzerland.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: EliteTerm on September 25, 2012, 09:48:19 am
You shouldn't have made this topic.
Obviously some individuals here don't use their brains before posting.

If you want my say on it;
Hell no.
America has a shitload of citizens, and if everyone would have a gun it would be an uncontrollable chaos.
Don't give me that self protection bs either. Guns are only used for crime by civilians over there.

Gun Control.... when was the last time criminals followed laws? As Gandalf explained, attempting to control & confiscate firearms will NOT be pretty.

The only way to properly 'control' guns is by the person that legally owns a firearm and is trained for it. Those you hear all the times in the news, about shootings, is done by the criminals and those who is ignorant on safety.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Duel on September 25, 2012, 11:58:47 am
Honestly, no.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Teddy on September 25, 2012, 04:17:36 pm
Ah, those who do not understand American law.

Yes, many agree there should be much stricter regulations on gun laws in our country, I being one of them. However the 2nd amendment is part of the bill of rights meaning that no law or alteration can be made to it that removes or hinders the rights unless deemed necessary for an individual (I.E Terrorist, Convicted Criminals). It is not a matter of can we, we can't. A few years ago Washington DC tried to ban handguns from the D.C area and the United States Supreme Court overruled the law and shot it down as it was "A violation of the bill of rights".

While its true the bill of rights were drafted and written in a period of time where automatic and even semi-automatic weapons were not around, and mass-shooting sprees were not a problem. Over the years many visions and ideas never before presented became affected by the change of the world. The ideals and motives behind the constitution were not suitable anymore, amendments had to be made. But these first 10, the bill of rights, can not be. This is the unfortunate part of the powerful system we have and sure many may criticize it, but it is aimed to protect the american citizen.

My idea, on guns is that simple handguns and hunting rifles are fine to own as long as it is registered and is kept safely away from children and teens. Semi automatic (AK,AR-15, ETC) should not be permitted UNLESS it is a private, indoor and secure gun club and can only be used on training targets and these weapons should remain locked within the property. This is the only legitimate purpose for them, you aren't going to hunt deer with a AR-15. Tactical Weapons/Full Auto weapons should be banned  entirely other than for specialized law enforcement (I.E SWAT/F.B.I SWAT & HRT).
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Dean. on September 25, 2012, 04:20:47 pm
I say no. If the citizens want more protection, then recruit more officers. No weapons. Because this will end up in shootouts again, and again, and again.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Mikal on September 25, 2012, 04:38:12 pm
Why does every American want/need a gun? Theres self defence and theres patheticness, I'de rather go ninja style with a 5inch blade. :lol:
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Reece on September 25, 2012, 07:58:13 pm
Why does every American want/need a gun? Theres self defence and theres patheticness, I'de rather go ninja style with a 5inch blade. :lol:

So you would use a 5 inch knife as self defence? That would be breaking the law if it was in public.  :roll:

http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/law.html (http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/law.html)
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Dean. on September 25, 2012, 08:29:30 pm
So you would use a 5 inch knife as self defence? That would be breaking the law if it was in public.  :roll:

http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/law.html (http://www.bkcg.co.uk/guide/law.html)

We are talking about the US here, not UK  :D
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Dave on September 25, 2012, 08:42:08 pm
My idea, on guns is that simple handguns and hunting rifles are fine to own as long as it is registered and is kept safely away from children and teens.

That's how it is in the UK currently. Although most people with licenses for firearms are farmers or "outdoor industry" owners who use them for pest control/hunting. I know someone who owns a fishery who owns a rifle and a shotgun...he is also licensed to have a "higher" caliber of weapon due to him being an ex anti terror and firearms police officer.

I would expand on your idea and say that anyone wanting to own a firearm would have to be, as Elite suggested, trained and licensed to use the weapon, with a hefty fee to pay to obtain the license to restrict everyone and their grandma(literally) buying gun licensed. 
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Ratko Gavrilovic on September 25, 2012, 10:07:14 pm
Gun Control.... when was the last time criminals followed laws? As Gandalf explained, attempting to control & confiscate firearms will NOT be pretty.

The only way to properly 'control' guns is by the person that legally owns a firearm and is trained for it. Those you hear all the times in the news, about shootings, is done by the criminals and those who is ignorant on safety.
Yes, give guns to the people who can cause even more damage with them.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: EliteTerm on September 25, 2012, 10:16:36 pm
Ah, those who do not understand American law.

Yes, many agree there should be much stricter regulations on gun laws in our country, I being one of them. However the 2nd amendment is part of the bill of rights meaning that no law or alteration can be made to it that removes or hinders the rights unless deemed necessary for an individual (I.E Terrorist, Convicted Criminals). It is not a matter of can we, we can't. A few years ago Washington DC tried to ban handguns from the D.C area and the United States Supreme Court overruled the law and shot it down as it was "A violation of the bill of rights".

While its true the bill of rights were drafted and written in a period of time where automatic and even semi-automatic weapons were not around, and mass-shooting sprees were not a problem. Over the years many visions and ideas never before presented became affected by the change of the world. The ideals and motives behind the constitution were not suitable anymore, amendments had to be made. But these first 10, the bill of rights, can not be. This is the unfortunate part of the powerful system we have and sure many may criticize it, but it is aimed to protect the american citizen.

My idea, on guns is that simple handguns and hunting rifles are fine to own as long as it is registered and is kept safely away from children and teens. Semi automatic (AK,AR-15, ETC) should not be permitted UNLESS it is a private, indoor and secure gun club and can only be used on training targets and these weapons should remain locked within the property. This is the only legitimate purpose for them, you aren't going to hunt deer with a AR-15. Tactical Weapons/Full Auto weapons should be banned  entirely other than for specialized law enforcement (I.E SWAT/F.B.I SWAT & HRT).

Yes, times has changed, but the basic ideals behind this shouldn't have to. The 2nd Amendment isn't just for the right to bear arms, as well as individual protection, but to protect themselves from an invasion or the event that the government becomes destructive toward their freedoms.

The only thing that matters about the regulations of firearms is that citizens should be taught about properly controlling these firearms, and thus teaching to next generation and so on.

_______________
Number of Privately Owned Firearms:
The estimated total number of guns held by civilians in the United States is 270,000,0001

Rate of Civilian Firearm Possession per 100 Population:
The rate of private gun ownership in the United States is 88.82 firearms per 100 people

Number of Privately Owned Firearms - World Ranking:
In a comparison of the number of privately owned guns in 178 countries, the United States ranked at No. 1

Rate of Privately Owned Firearms per 100 Population - World Ranking:
In a comparison of the rate of private gun ownership in 179 countries, the United States ranked at No. 1

Number of Military Firearms:
The defence forces of the United States are reported to have 3,054,5533 firearms

Number of Law Enforcement Firearms:
Police in the United States are reported to have 897,4004 firearms
_______________
http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states (http://www.gunpolicy.org/firearms/region/united-states)

Post Merge: September 25, 2012, 10:41:35 pm
Yes, give guns to the people who can cause even more damage with them.

Yes, give tools to the people who can cause even more damage with them. (vehicles, construction tools, baseball bats, golf clubs, kitchen knives, etc).
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Ratko Gavrilovic on September 25, 2012, 11:16:31 pm
Yes, give tools to the people who can cause even more damage with them. (vehicles, construction tools, baseball bats, golf clubs, kitchen knives, etc).
LOL, are you seriously comparing tools with firearms? :rofl:
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Krueger on September 25, 2012, 11:22:27 pm
Yes, I like guns.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Reece on September 26, 2012, 12:00:51 am
LOL, are you seriously comparing tools with firearms? :rofl:

A firearm is a tool.

tool/toÍžol/
Noun:   
A device or implement, esp. one held in the hand, used to carry out a particular function.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: EliteTerm on September 26, 2012, 12:02:17 am
LOL, are you seriously comparing tools with firearms? :rofl:

Yes, I did. You're not getting the point.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: ~Legend~ on September 26, 2012, 02:53:23 am
It's a really 'sensitive' topic, as you can't ultimately define it being right or wrong to an extent.

More than the firearm, it's obviously down to who has been given the responsibility of wielding it.

A life saver or a life taker?
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Teddy on September 26, 2012, 03:36:34 am
A life saver or a life taker?

It really comes down to the infamous quote, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". This is the real truth, and the fact remains even with more stricter laws this will only prevent responsible people from owning a firearm, the black market is far to large to stop and getting a firearm is far to easy in the United States to gain control of it. I live in a state with one of the most relaxed gun laws in the country, and its even easier to gun a gun via black market than legally. If I had the money I know a place 5 minutes from where I live where I can get various types of weapons; automatic shotguns, AK-47s, a LAW, various non-lethal grenades + a grenade launcher and various others I wont mention since I don't want the ATF knocking on my door in the next few days xD.

My point is the statistics you present don't mention; the fact is only 1% to 5% of crimes committed using a gun are LEGALLY owned guns(range depends on source/year), the rest of them (94%~99%) are illegal firearms. This is a scary fact, considering the ease of getting this weapons illegally rather the process of getting them legally. While yes the most recent large-mass shooting was carried out by a person who obtained the weapons legally, its less common that portrayed by the media, which has secondary agendas. While I do agree this sick fk shouldn't have been able to purchase an AR-15, nor should any person be able to purchase assault rifles in the United States.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: duffman on September 26, 2012, 01:55:40 pm
No guns for everyone would be way better  :cop:

R34L M4NS US3 FIST3S.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: JDC on September 30, 2012, 07:57:27 am
When there is a murderer coming at you, it is better to use the gun in your holster than to call 911 and wait for the police to arrive.

The sad truth is that in some countries, fastfood delivery arrives even faster than the respondents to an emergency call.

If you are killed, it is better to go down with a fight (and you might even survive to kill your would-be killer) than to become some hapless murder victim who died because the cops were 10 minutes late.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: [WS]Jacob on September 30, 2012, 12:24:34 pm
Here there is virtually no gun crime as Reece has already pointed out and this comes from the various laws that we have. I think part of it is also that our police do not carry firearms, so the public also see no reason to have them.

But for Americans it comes from their history of having a firearm that has caused this dispute. I personally think that if gun control was enforced then maybe America could reach a point as the UK is now, but this would take years maybe even decades.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: John_Goldman on September 30, 2012, 04:43:25 pm
Last time I checked, the U.K doesn't have a country that smuggles in guns and drugs very easily. The problems are gangs, mostly formed by illegal immigrants(from Mexico) do the majority of U.S. crime. It is waaaaay to easy to smuggle guns, drugs, and even people over the border. This is why the US has such a high crime rate. So why you people in the UK soak up the sun, with few criminals running amongst the street, the Americans have something to worry about. And we can't even do anything about the borders.
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: Gandalf on September 30, 2012, 05:01:54 pm
Last time I checked, the U.K doesn't have a country that smuggles in guns and drugs very easily. The problems are gangs, mostly formed by illegal immigrants(from Mexico) do the majority of U.S. crime. It is waaaaay to easy to smuggle guns, drugs, and even people over the border. This is why the US has such a high crime rate. So why you people in the UK soak up the sun, with few criminals running amongst the street, the Americans have something to worry about. And we can't even do anything about the borders.
Just the idea that people in the UK are soaking up sun makes the whole rest invalid.... :lol:
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: John_Goldman on September 30, 2012, 07:48:29 pm
Just the idea that people in the UK are soaking up sun makes the whole rest invalid.... :lol:
Just a phrase. :cop:
Title: Re: Should all American Citizens be allowed to carry guns? (US Elections)
Post by: ~Legend~ on September 30, 2012, 08:39:01 pm
Here in the UK, in the past the government they have used foreign migrants a lot in its workforce.
At this stage, the main problem is that for a small island there's a lot of people on it. With a population of 63 million & about 700 living in every sq. mile, in places it can be quite dense.
So, the government are looking more strictly at those coming into the country.

The word "immigrant" or "migrant" is sometimes looked down on in the UK (as a result of a lot of what people see on news etc.), but that's completely wrong, seeing as they are simply geographical terms. Illegal immigrants aren't exactly a lethal threat to the UK, just something that the border agency is trying to completely get control of.

We have the usual crime, some of it is reported more than you would find in other parts of the world by the media. The country thankfully has good security, a good policing system. Can't really blame what happens on people from other parts of the world. ;P

In the UK, unlike in the states, you can't just go out and buy a firearm quite in the same way.
It is not so easy finding an authorised dealer, and isn't something fully accessible to general members of the public.

Going back to the very main topic, I'll have to agree with this - 

It really comes down to the infamous quote, "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". This is the real truth, and the fact remains even with more stricter laws this will only prevent responsible people from owning a firearm, the black market is far to large to stop and getting a firearm is far to easy in the United States to gain control of it. I live in a state with one of the most relaxed gun laws in the country, and its even easier to gun a gun via black market than legally. If I had the money I know a place 5 minutes from where I live where I can get various types of weapons; automatic shotguns, AK-47s, a LAW, various non-lethal grenades + a grenade launcher and various others I wont mention since I don't want the ATF knocking on my door in the next few days xD.

My point is the statistics you present don't mention; the fact is only 1% to 5% of crimes committed using a gun are LEGALLY owned guns(range depends on source/year), the rest of them (94%~99%) are illegal firearms. This is a scary fact, considering the ease of getting this weapons illegally rather the process of getting them legally. While yes the most recent large-mass shooting was carried out by a person who obtained the weapons legally, its less common that portrayed by the media, which has secondary agendas. While I do agree this sick fk shouldn't have been able to purchase an AR-15, nor should any person be able to purchase assault rifles in the United States.

I've heard of a lot of people being prosecuted for attacking their attacker, taking an assaulter's life... some may look at it and say "they deserved it... they broke into that man's house in the first place" or "they put themselves in harm's way by trying to attack someone", but others would regard it as cold blooded murder/manslaughter.

Some of the above incidences may not even involve a firearm.

There's an interesting story in the UK press right now.
A man was shot dead by some police officers for apparently pulling out a gun on them when they tried approaching/stopping him. I am not sure if he was being previously watched by the police, or if they were attempting to arrest him. The story is, on whatever basis, the police saw him having a gun on his person or wielding one and took him down.
However, when the body was examined/searched no gun was found either on him or, if I remember correctly, near him or inside his vehicle.
What to make of it?


Back to the states, with a presidential election just around the corner, it'd be interesting how the electorate might react if any of the candidates held up strong views and advocated this topic.
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