Argonath RPG - A World of its own
GTA:SA => San Andreas - Capital Building => SA:MP - Business & Government => SA Capital Building Archive => Topic started by: Huntsman on September 25, 2012, 04:12:39 pm
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Dear Arghonathians,
I'm Maxwell Rogers. I have been an activist to change the political system in Argonath for quite a long time now. But seems that my efforts are going to get to waste if i will not publicy my ideals and thoughts.
Since the very beggining of the existance ot he United States of Argonath, the system in Argonath has been dictatorship, under two the rule of two people, which is Aragorn and Gandalf.
Even though i do admire their efforts in trying to make the state a better place to live, in my opinion, the people of the nation themselves should be allowed to take part in the bussiness of the country THEY are living in.
My proposal is to establish a whole government based on democratical essentials, or to form a parlament to represent the voice of the people.
My first achievment as a democracy in Argonath activist was the established democratical Mayor elections in the state of Liberty City (LU), my next achievment was to publicily promote the freedom of speech and opinion, which has caused my dismissal from various positions i used to uphold.
With this letter, i'm inviting the people of Argonath to unite into the new political party/prostest - Argonath Democracy Movement.
What would we do?
Make public or closed forums on matters that are topical in Argonath
Represent the public opinion and voice
Various roleplay events and opportunities
Join the peaceful movement by fullfilling this tiny form:
[b]In game name and roleplay name:[/b]
[b]Political and religious views?:[/b]
[b]Your opinion about current Argonath Political system?:[/b]
Feel free to discuss this, as long as you keep it civilized!
Members:
Party minister:
Max_Rogers
Party Members:
[WS]Teddy
Chase
Sweeper
Mr.Goobii
Janek
Marcel_
Jack_Bauer
Mobius
The Minister of Argonath Democracy Movement
Maxwell P. Payne
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I will not support this. Even if it is dicatorship. We have nothing to complaint. Our economy is doing fine and the citizens are safe, thanks to the SAPD, FBI and other police groups.
Sorry Max.
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I will not support this. Even if it is dicatorship. We have nothing to complaint. Our economy is doing fine and the citizens are safe, thanks to the SAPD, FBI and other police groups.
Sorry Max.
Lol no problem man. This is just a roleplay proposal and an attempt to change something in the Argonath so the gameplay would become a little bit more interesting.
No hard feelings bro, take care!
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:conf: uhm what
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:conf: uhm what
Oh dear... :lol:
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Dear Mr Payne,
In respect to various proposals of forming a government, we have always been open to a democratic system. However before initiating the formation of such a system we have also every time requested to give a full scale proposal of the actual functioning, powers and responsibilities of the various bodies to be formed.
As for any democratic system that goes beyond the in-game influence we are open as soon as every active player will contribute real life taxes so that, like every other government, we can draw money instead of inserting.
I await your proposal.
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Dear Mr Payne,
In respect to various proposals of forming a government, we have always been open to a democratic system. However before initiating the formation of such a system we have also every time requested to give a full scale proposal of the actual functioning, powers and responsibilities of the various bodies to be formed.
As for any democratic system that goes beyond the in-game influence we are open as soon as every active player will contribute real life taxes so that, like every other government, we can draw money instead of inserting.
I await your proposal.
Dear Gandalf,
It seems that you tend to criticize the democratic governments of the other republics due to the fact that they're more taking than giving, am i assuming correct?
If yes, in that case let me remind you that this is Argonath and we can always make the system work the way we want it to work, all we need is a will.\
My proposal is to make a parlament of Argonath , that would be led by the political party that would win the elections and would be accompanied by another 4 parties that has got the second highest amount of votes. The parlament would have indirect control of the country. It would discuss the problems of the nation, possible solutions.
If this form of democracy would work, we could focus on an attempt to make the democracy more influent in the control of the government.
Sincerely yours,
The minister of ADM - Maxwell P. Payne
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Your proposal is extremely short and incomplete.
I requested you to propose a full system for democratic bodies with their responsibilities and powers, and your response is nowhere near that.
So if you wish to accomplish something, perhaps you will try to invest some proper time in it.
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Your proposal is extremely short and incomplete.
I requested you to propose a full system for democratic bodies with their responsibilities and powers, and your response is nowhere near that.
So if you wish to accomplish something, perhaps you will try to invest some proper time in it.
Sure, i will, i only gave you a little summary of what it would work like.
Off the record:
I have a LOT of homework to do today and im tired as hell since i had like 8 lessons today. I'll make sure to give you a full description of my suggestions once i'm a little more free than that.
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Max, I believe what Gandalf is trying to tell you is that he wants an actual concept design of the structure of this democratic government. Establishing a government is not easy and takes some time. I am currently taking a government class in school so perhaps I could help you make that if you want.
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I'd be glad to help as well, I've taken various random ass courses in my time in School, few of them being the government & democracy and the foundations of government.
To expand he is asking for a really in-depth step-by-step outline of the proposal, covering every angle from possible abuse methods, and how to solve them to how the simplest elements of it function with care.
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I have already seen this kind of thing (I had a lot of support running as the Mayor of LS at one point with the Self Preservation Society (http://www.argonathrpg.com/index.php?topic=28660.0) - So much so that my competition usually ended up joining the party rather than oppose).... Check the topic out. The only recruiting I did was ingame - everything we done was ingame and that's how many we had join.
And guess what, it takes a lot of ingenuity, ingame activity, thinking through and lots of work.
So from past experience, I predict in 2 weeks from now this topic will be dead and your own contributions ingame will amount to near nothing concerning this movement.
And if there is such an ingame movement, retaliation from the Dictator Political Party will be swift and brutally lead by Father Bastard :evil: Or you better try to get further than I did to have a chance : )
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Also you may find this topic interesting:
http://www.argonathrpg.com/index.php?topic=28654.0 (http://www.argonathrpg.com/index.php?topic=28654.0)
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So, Teddy and Chase, should i count you in as the party members so we can start thinking of a possible concept?
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In real life it takes years and years for some countries to launch a democracy. Even if it's a game, it won't be possible to turn Argonath into a working democracy in two or three weeks.
I'm studying public administration and I'm willing to help.
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In that case im counting all of you in as the members of the party.
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Sounds promising if you do it right. I would like to help if possible.
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Sounds promising if you do it right. I would like to help if possible.
Alright, i'll add you to the members list too.
I'll look into making a meeting at the closest time possible that would be comfortable for everyone. Feel free to give suggestions.
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Idea, every player gets a chance to start his own polical party. after 4 weeks of promoting they'rs there will be voting.
/discuss ;)
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I had studied political science and governmental functions/types for years now. I had thought of a proposal to send in some time ago, but never got to do such.
If it weren't for other plans in mind, I'd be willing to help, would be quite interesting to see carried out. We will see in the future.
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Idea, every player gets a chance to start his own polical party. after 4 weeks of promoting they'rs there will be voting.
/discuss ;)
Everyone already has that chance and nobody does it, because it's a lot of effort and players get bored :)
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What about a meeting today on 18 CET? Everyone's from the party and guests that wish to attend available?
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What about a meeting today on 18 CET? Everyone's from the party and guests that wish to attend available?
Going to require a bit more advanced notice.
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Aight, everyone just give a suggestion for the meeting date.
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Aight, everyone just give a suggestion for the meeting date.
For me are MSN or Skype the only options at the moment.
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Teamspeak, MSN, Skype, all good for me.. let me know when to meet again!
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ALL HAIL PRESIDENT ONOTOLE :hoor:
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Your proposal is extremely short and incomplete.
I requested you to propose a full system for democratic bodies with their responsibilities and powers, and your response is nowhere near that.
So if you wish to accomplish something, perhaps you will try to invest some proper time in it.
Worth a shot. Updated my federal constitution proposal to a more democratic form:
http://www.argonathrpg.com/index.php?topic=88271.msg1409813#msg1409813 (http://www.argonathrpg.com/index.php?topic=88271.msg1409813#msg1409813)
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Well I like where this is going so I will make a post most likely tomorrow in much details about how I think how a democratic system could work in Argonath.
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Let's try some ingame meeting or teamspeak meeting, where everyone can vent their ideas!
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How about a teamspeak meeting on 18:00 CET tommorow?
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Sure.
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Im really with the current government system.. Due to its freedom, Need of more talent than education in any fields of job, Growth in work and personal life and a very good stable economy, Thanks to the almighty blessing's of Sauron it have helped me and a lot of people to achieve new heights..
Looking forward what new things will be presented by the "Democracy Movement" in the next secession..
kun4L
Social worker of Jefferson Church
&
Owner of Bar/Resturant Idlewood
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How about a teamspeak meeting on 18:00 CET tommorow?
Perfect, see you tomorrow!
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I apologize for missing the meeting, but i'm just too busy lately.. We could try making a meeting on 15:00 CET on Friday.
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Count me in.
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Count me in.
Ok.
Post Merge: October 05, 2012, 01:21:13 pm
Im sorry but once again the meeting will have to happen without me, i'm too busy, just come up with a possible system we can send to Gandalf and let me know about it.
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Ok.
Post Merge: October 05, 2012, 01:21:13 pm
Im sorry but once again the meeting will have to happen without me, i'm too busy, just come up with a possible system we can send to Gandalf and let me know about it.
I will be on around 7-8 CET tonight. If anyone wants to join in, drop me a PM on TS!
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This group, although well-intentioned, does not appear to be going anywhere. Either nothing his happened or this party is not being transparent about it, and neither is good for a party aimed at establishing a federal democracy.
I also find several statements made by Minister Maxwell Payne to be false:
My first achievment as a democracy in Argonath activist was the established democratical Mayor elections in the state of Liberty City (LU)
No mayoral elections have begun, nor was the idea implemented directly because of advocacy from Mr. Payne. This statement is misleading.
my next achievment was to publicily promote the freedom of speech and opinion, which has caused my dismissal from various positions i used to uphold.
You were not fired from such positions for upholding freedom of speech and opinion, but for recklessly disrepecting not only superior commanders, but also citizens, and behaving in a crude manner. Freedom of speech and opinion protects you from being discriminated against by the government for your opinion, not for behaving in a manner unsuitable for the line of work you were removed from.
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In the wake of Stormeus' statements, i believe it is time to formally establish this movement. All people that are interested, i will create a channel tomorrow evening at 8PM GMT+1 (Amsterdam time), where we can discuss our thoughts, ideas and beliefs.
I will make sure there is enough coffee, tea and soda for everyone!
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This group, although well-intentioned, does not appear to be going anywhere. Either nothing his happened or this party is not being transparent about it, and neither is good for a party aimed at establishing a federal democracy.
I also find several statements made by Minister Maxwell Payne to be false:
No mayoral elections have begun, nor was the idea implemented directly because of advocacy from Mr. Payne. This statement is misleading.
You were not fired from such positions for upholding freedom of speech and opinion, but for recklessly disrepecting not only superior commanders, but also citizens, and behaving in a crude manner. Freedom of speech and opinion protects you from being discriminated against by the government for your opinion, not for behaving in a manner unsuitable for the line of work you were removed from.
1. That's because currently i have no idea when people are available and when not, therefor it's very hard for me to set up a meeting.
2. The mayoral elections havent begun, but they have been confirmed, and many of the authorities in Liberty City have praised this idea.
3. I was fired for upholding freedom of speech and opinion. I have never used a single direct insult or replica while arguing with someone over a point, unless i was being threated in that manner. The last time i was fired and banned was because of my statement that "SAPD dues not value the new generation of officers, and instead, wants the old ones to remain". Please avoid slandering about me.
In the wake of Stormeus' statements, i believe it is time to formally establish this movement. All people that are interested, i will create a channel tomorrow evening at 8PM GMT+1 (Amsterdam time), where we can discuss our thoughts, ideas and beliefs.
I will make sure there is enough coffee, tea and soda for everyone!
Sounds good to me, since i became active again.
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I shall be there, tonight at 20:00 /time.
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In the wake of Stormeus' statements, i believe it is time to formally establish this movement. All people that are interested, i will create a channel tomorrow evening at 8PM GMT+1 (Amsterdam time), where we can discuss our thoughts, ideas and beliefs.
I will make sure there is enough coffee, tea and soda for everyone!
I shall be there, tonight at 20:00 /time.
:lol:
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Oh you!!!! :mad:
For clarity, is it tonight, or tomorrow night?
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It's tonight, haha, i mostly play right after midnight, my bad :D
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It's tonight, haha, i mostly play right after midnight, my bad :D
I knew it would be - thanks.
:lol:
IN YOUR FACE!!! :hah:
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:lol:
Do you need some ice Gandalf? Your face must hurt.. :hit:
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Am i missing something? A meeting 20:00 CET (/time) ? :)
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Am i missing something? A meeting 20:00 CET (/time) ? :)
Depends on what you will do in 2 hours time.... :drunk:
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Depends on what you will do in 2 hours time.... :drunk:
What do you mean? :D I'm free at that time.
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Made a channel on TS3: "Argonath Democracy Movement"
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Made a channel on TS3: "Argonath Democracy Movement"
I'm there
Post Merge: October 09, 2012, 09:22:24 pm
Todays debate was : The basics of a possible democratical system, the proposal of a parlament and different city councils.
The next public debate is tommorow (2012.10.09) 20:00 CET (Server /time) or 8PM CET in Argonath Teamspeak.
Post Merge: October 10, 2012, 08:25:58 pm
So, this is what we have came up with so far..
P.S , sorry for ugly hand writing, i cant help it. If you cant read what it says, please let me know, i will re-take the photo in a lighter environment during a day
(http://imageshack.us/a/img820/9820/pa100006i.jpg)
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Since I was not able to attend the TeamSpeak meeting today, I'd like to make several points.
Firstly, I still insist that we avoid using a system that allows entire political parties that get the most votes to be able to take control of the legislative branch. Even with a system where three parties are able to share the seats according to votes, let me propose a situation where this would not be entirely helpful. Assume that following an election, the three leading parties, which have combined, complete control over the legislative branch, a law is introduced that is popular with 80% of the electorate. The other 20% of the electorate has concerns regarding the laws. However, with legislators aligned toward their respective party's views, the 20% of voters that disagree with the act may or may not be able to get their point across.
Another scenario where party-based legislative branches would not be effective is a situation in which independents with no party affiliation are running for office. Independent is not a party. This makes elections for parliamentary seats more complicated because seats would be divided among the most popular parties, not individuals.
Secondly, I've only seen discussions on how the legislative branch will work. There is much, much, much much more that has to be discussed. The judiciary still has to be discussed. The executive branch still has to be discussed. The division of powers still has to be discussed. Issues with existing entities such as how official groups under the current authority of the president and prime minister still have to be discussed. A draft for the constitution that legally binds this together still has to be created, and a plan for a smooth transition and creation of this government still has to be discussed.
Thirdly, even if we were to effectively discuss and plan every single government branch and divide all the powers appropriately, write up a constitution, present it, and have a transitional plan, one more issue remains -- are we looking at this from the big picture? A government is not just interconnected parts put together to form a whole much like a machine, but is one body designed to enforce the ideas of the people. The branches are merely a by-product of dividing the powers to prevent a person or individual from having too much power.
In order to effectively create a government as such, we need to keep several questions in mind.
- Why do we need a democracy?
- How should the democracy be set up to fit the needs of the United States of Argonath?
- What is the average citizen like in the USA? How should the democracy be modified accordingly? (For example, are people very outspoken or passive?)
- How do we put a new government into place without interrupting anything?
And with that being said, there also need to be several goals to be kept in mind as well.
- To establish a government with the people, and not seats in a parliament, in mind
- To effectively establish order and enforce laws
- To be able to effectively create laws that represent the ideas of the people, and not a party
- To divide power in a way that suits the needs of our smaller active population, but also prevents an individual from getting too much power
- To make sure the proposed government is interconnected and organized
- To make sure all possible options are looked at thoroughly
As a final note, I wasn't able to attend the TeamSpeak meetings because of my time zone. While I may be one of the few with this issue, perhaps another mode of sharing ideas could be added, such as an open forum in this thread, that would allow people from other time zones who would like to attend but cannot to participate in discussions.
Only once all of these issues have been met can a true democracy movement begin, in my not-very-humble opinion.
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One small thing I would like to add to Stormeus' points about the overall larger picture is what about other servers? If we are going so far as to set up a political system for the entire country of the United States Of Argonath, then much, much more needs to be discussed pertaining to state/city (server) representation. A national government would affect all servers combined, so it would only make sense to get them all involved then.
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One small thing I would like to add to Stormeus' points about the overall larger picture is what about other servers? If we are going so far as to set up a political system for the entire country of the United States Of Argonath, then much, much more needs to be discussed pertaining to state/city (server) representation. A national government would affect all servers combined, so it would only make sense to get them all involved then.
I would have to agree with this. I don't remember who said it, but yesterday, I think I remember someone saying that the government should be focused more on San Andreas because it's more populated. The fact of the matter is that state governments should handle the states and national governments should handle the nation.
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That was me, saying that it would be best applied to the active (and open) servers of Argonath: SA:MP, VC:MP, IV:MP.
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That was me, saying that it would be best applied to the active (and open) servers of Argonath: SA:MP, VC:MP, IV:MP.
MTA:VC and MTA:SA are both active and open as well...
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That was me, saying that it would be best applied to the active (and open) servers of Argonath: SA:MP, VC:MP, IV:MP.
Is it a federal government if provinces are excluded because of being "inactive"? That would effectively prevent laws from being enforced in MTA:SA, MTA:VC, and LU in the future just because of a smaller population.
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What we were discussing was nothing federal, it was about a city council-based style of involving the citizens with RP complaints more than /report for someone parking his car on another guy's property, for example. It hasn't even started to be discussed other than in the context of "what if" or brainstorming sessions.
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What we were discussing was nothing federal, it was about a city council-based style of involving the citizens with RP complaints more than /report for someone parking his car on another guy's property, for example. It hasn't even started to be discussed other than in the context of "what if" or brainstorming sessions.
Then that is a completely separate idea from this one, which clearly references the country and community as a whole in several points in the original post.
This is getting a bit confusing...
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At this stage, the brainstorming meetings haven't got to what you're both talking about.
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What we were discussing was nothing federal, it was about a city council-based style of involving the citizens with RP complaints more than /report for someone parking his car on another guy's property, for example. It hasn't even started to be discussed other than in the context of "what if" or brainstorming sessions.
I'm sorry, but what? Max's outline shows plans for a basic parliamentary structure. I absolutely remember discussions regarding a three-party parliament and discussions about election procedures.
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I'm sorry, but what? Max's outline shows plans for a basic parliamentary structure. I absolutely remember discussions regarding a three-party parliament and discussions about election procedures.
True, however there has been only one real meeting so far, and the entire idea is still nothing more than brainstorming. Democracy cannot be done in one week or month.
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oh
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Guys, keep it calm. Please read the system i have posted, if its readable ofc :D.
In any case, i meant that the MAIN GOVERNMENT would be in SAMP, due to its possibilities and population. Yes, the parlament would in fact have effect for VC and LC as well, but people from LC and VC, which would like to be in a parlament, would have to have access to SA:MP
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I support only ingame things really that generate roleplay. You can spend an amazing amount of time drawing up plans, having meetings etc on forums... but easier and more fun to do this ingame - and will have more impact on the server.
Besides, if you did go through all the effort of making such a system, I would run a political party, win, and revert the system back to a dictatorship with majority of followers :evil:
P.s. On a serious note: The democracy ideals of government representing the poeple is nonsense. There is always some own agenda... and I already see this not working in places like ARUN: who do not bother to speak for their groups. So what chance do you have of representing a population? If someones voice needs to be heard... we already have a forum system... where it can be seen by all - including those in power.
We have already got a good system where any one player can talk directly to the president... any democracy and paperwork is not going to be as efficient. Ofc I will support the ingame RP part but the rest is just a fad which will die, because people do not join Argonath to play on the forums writing policies.
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I support only ingame things really that generate roleplay. You can spend an amazing amount of time drawing up plans, having meetings etc on forums... but easier and more fun to do this ingame - and will have more impact on the server.
Besides, if you did go through all the effort of making such a system, I would run a political party, win, and revert the system back to a dictatorship with majority of followers :evil:
Remind me to blacklist you from the party :D
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Remind me to blacklist you from the party :D
It is a democracy, I would ofc make my own party. The dictator party. And win the democracy.
Also I edited the last :D
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It is a democracy, I would ofc make my own party. The dictator party. And win the democracy.
Also I edited the last :D
I'll secretly form an armed rebellion and kill of your party :P
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When looking at a democratic system you might wish to look further as the US or English system, and go for a system as the Dutch have where the parliament can hold up to 10 parties, with the government almost always having to be a coalition of the largest ones.
This gives more people a chance at election time.
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Count me in, and check your PM.
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When looking at a democratic system you might wish to look further as the US or English system, and go for a system as the Dutch have where the parliament can hold up to 10 parties, with the government almost always having to be a coalition of the largest ones.
This gives more people a chance at election time.
What are your views on the position of the president and prime minister if Argonath were to implement a interpretation of the Dutch system? Since i live in the Netherlands, i believe it is a good idea since in practice it gives fair election results, eg. the parliament represents the voters.
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When looking at a democratic system you might wish to look further as the US or English system, and go for a system as the Dutch have where the parliament can hold up to 10 parties, with the government almost always having to be a coalition of the largest ones.
This gives more people a chance at election time.
For Argo's sake though, I wouldn't recommend we base any democratic systems based on parties only because of the issues that would arise. Aside from that, we could probably get away with using any one of the systems you mentioned and still have things work out fine as a result. The political parties just complicate things and create more opinion-based bias on specific subjects, which doesn't represent worldwide players very well.
Guys, keep it calm. Please read the system i have posted, if its readable ofc :D.
In any case, i meant that the MAIN GOVERNMENT would be in SAMP, due to its possibilities and population. Yes, the parlament would in fact have effect for VC and LC as well, but people from LC and VC, which would like to be in a parlament, would have to have access to SA:MP
I wouldn't be able to support that idea then. Although I understand that SA:MP is one of the most popular servers in Argo, it just doesn't make sense in my opinion to have them control everyone else, and force others to have SA:MP access to do it. Now if you meant something along the lines of having the national capital in SA:MP somewhere, that'd be a different story. The reason why I say this is because we already have the possibility of having these systems in each city/state in every Argo server, and some have even done such already. It wouldn't be all that great, or would it make much sense, to have a single city/state controlling an entire country, or from a community perspective, one server, or a portion thereof, controlling the entire community. In my eyes, it would be better to have one national government, such as what we somewhat already have with the Server Owners being President and Vice President/Prime Minister, and then allow servers to have their respective state and city governments, similar to what we have IRL.
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For Argo's sake though, I wouldn't recommend we base any democratic systems based on parties only because of the issues that would arise. Aside from that, we could probably get away with using any one of the systems you mentioned and still have things work out fine as a result. The political parties just complicate things and create more opinion-based bias on specific subjects, which doesn't represent worldwide players very well.
I wouldn't be able to support that idea then. Although I understand that SA:MP is one of the most popular servers in Argo, it just doesn't make sense in my opinion to have them control everyone else, and force others to have SA:MP access to do it. Now if you meant something along the lines of having the national capital in SA:MP somewhere, that'd be a different story. The reason why I say this is because we already have the possibility of having these systems in each city/state in every Argo server, and some have even done such already. It wouldn't be all that great, or would it make much sense, to have a single city/state controlling an entire country, or from a community perspective, one server, or a portion thereof, controlling the entire community. In my eyes, it would be better to have one national government, such as what we somewhat already have with the Server Owners being President and Vice President/Prime Minister, and then allow servers to have their respective state and city governments, similar to what we have IRL.
that can be discussed
Post Merge: October 11, 2012, 09:19:51 pm
When looking at a democratic system you might wish to look further as the US or English system, and go for a system as the Dutch have where the parliament can hold up to 10 parties, with the government almost always having to be a coalition of the largest ones.
This gives more people a chance at election time.
We discussed the possibility to have a lot of parties or people inside the parlament, but everyone pretty much decided that having too many people in the parlamet will make things messy.
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The democracy ideals of government representing the poeple is nonsense. There is always some own agenda... and I already see this not working in places like ARUN: who do not bother to speak for their groups. So what chance do you have of representing a population? If someones voice needs to be heard... we already have a forum system... where it can be seen by all - including those in power.
That's the spirit!
On a more serious note, how about a partial direct democracy then? Allow the legislative branch to propose laws or bring forward ideas proposed by ideas, hold an initial vote (checking for constitutionality, competence, and whether it suits the needs of the public), then have the public vote on it.
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We have never supported full democracy. We're proposing a partial democracy, where President and the Prime Minister is still the main and irrefutable leader.
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Well for a type of Democracy it depends If you want to go American with a House of Representatives or something similar like the English Parliament or Greek House of Plebs, where people elect officials to represent them based on districts (distracts to be made) Also do we want a Roman style counter balance like a Senate? as if we do we already have a supreme court so you could also do a an American Balance of Power. The however another thing to is with a new government do we keep the old constitution or make a new one based on the new system. Also What powers does said people get, Can people vote for things like taxes? national health care? weapon regulations? I dont see the founding of the government a problem but more enforcing and will such government be able to change things and will certain people in said government need something like Manager or Admin rank or make a new class for such people?
Also is Gandalf just going to willingly submit power or must there be a fight/revolution and another thing If there is a player government doesnt that mean things like ARPD/SAPD/FBI will be forced or order to do things because of said government, like if they have wages etc. or want to fire someone without going through ARPD as said government would have the power.
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will certain people in said government need something like Manager or Admin rank or make a new class for such people?
No. This is purely a roleplay idea.
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I would just say go ingame and do stuff for RP. Make government or whatever, do it ingame.
As the Sheriff, I will be happy to enforce any government issued laws (as I already did when I became mayor of FC :D). And who knows, if you actually make some good RP... might even have a chance of persuading SAPD to try out RPing with government laws (official or not).
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We have never supported full democracy. We're proposing a partial democracy, where President and the Prime Minister is still the main and irrefutable leader.
In that case, this is not the democracy (if you can call it that) movement that I am looking for. I mean no offense to President Ronnel or Prime Minister RON and I respect their leadership skills, but what kind of democracy allows the permanent instatement of the most important political leaders?
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In that case, this is not the democracy (if you can call it that) movement that I am looking for. I mean no offense to President Ronnel or Prime Minister RON and I respect their leadership skills, but what kind of democracy allows the permanent instatement of the most important political leaders?
Constitutional Monarchy's
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Constitutional Monarchy's
Is a monarchy a democracy?
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It is indeed not...and I would prefer to keep a separation of church and state here if we do this. Sauronism is the truth to all, but not everyone wishes to accept him yet!
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Well, what i mean is that we shouldnt go on full democracy instantly, we should first try to see how the partial democracy works.
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Parliamentary Democracy with a constitutional monarchy, would be my favourite form..
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Works nicely in many countries.
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Parliamentary Democracy with a constitutional monarchy, would be my favourite form..
Sounds just like Sweden, lol... Actually, exactly like Sweden, haha...
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Sounds just like Sweden, lol... Actually, exactly like Sweden, haha...
And the United Kingdom and Commonwealth Realms. Although Sweden's Sovereign has no power at all, since it got transferred to the Speaker of the house of Parliament while ago. Some constitutional monarchs still have some form of reserve power.
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We have never supported full democracy. We're proposing a partial democracy, where President and the Prime Minister is still the main and irrefutable leader.
Where is the proposal? Its 6 pages later and weeks as well. Has anyone even began working togeather on a draft or anything?
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We have never supported full democracy. We're proposing a partial democracy, where President and the Prime Minister is still the main and irrefutable leader.
If you say that you are not fit to represent the peoples and their wishes. Your interests are to protect this one way system or us let say two way system. I can't see how their called a President/Prime Minister when they posses absolute power they may as well be dictators.
Wouldn't one rather govern and be a symbolic and ceremonial figure by the affection of his peoples?
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Where is the proposal? Its 6 pages later and weeks as well. Has anyone even began working togeather on a draft or anything?
I haven't heard much from the leader of this movement.. maybe it's time for a coup :rofl:
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Where is the proposal? Its 6 pages later and weeks as well. Has anyone even began working togeather on a draft or anything?
The draft has been made and posted pages ago. It honestly is not my concern if you overseen it.
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Dear citizens,
Since we already came up with the scheme (these who participated in our TS meetings know what it looks like), maybe it's time we start an open presentiation of a democratical government, seek presidents approval and start acting?
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Dear citizens,
Since we already came up with the scheme (these who participated in our TS meetings know what it looks like), maybe it's time we start an open presentiation of a democratical government, seek presidents approval and start acting?
Count me in! I am going to fight for the legalization of weed tho :weed:
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Dear citizens,
Since we already came up with the scheme (these who participated in our TS meetings know what it looks like), maybe it's time we start an open presentiation of a democratical government, seek presidents approval and start acting?
Well I don't see why you need approval to show it to the world and say your views. I gather this is protected under the constitution Section II, Ordinance I.
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Well I don't see why you need approval to show it to the world and say your views. I gather this is protected under the constitution Section II, Ordinance I.
But we need approval to start acting as a government..?
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But we need approval to start acting as a government..?
Did the Heads of State have the drafts for the proposal?
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Did the Heads of State have the drafts for the proposal?
Please ellaborate?
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Please ellaborate?
The proposal, if official government is still the goal needs to be presented to the Honorable President Gandalf, and Honorable Prime Minister Aragorn. Is what I believe what Elizabeth is trying to say.
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The proposal, if official government is still the goal needs to be presented to the Honorable President Gandalf, and Honorable Prime Minister Aragorn. Is what I believe what Elizabeth is trying to say.
Well yes, because we dont want to rush things. It's good to start off with a mild level of democracy first.
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Well yes, because we dont want to rush things. It's good to start off with a mild level of democracy first.
Sounds like a good plan, but you should keep the general public informed of the progress. Keeping the interest will play key and important.
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Well can you publish something regarding what you're doing and how you're doing it? I've had a quick look through the topic and seen you want to create a Parliament as the true voice of the nation but there are many things to consider. How is the division on the 3 principle powers? Executive, Legislative and Judicial? Does the Head of State have any form of reserve powers to intervene within legislative/executive/judicial branches? What's the role of the Head of State?
How is the parliament formed? A single house, or two houses? The powers it holds?
I take it you are keeping a form of republic?
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Well can you publish something regarding what you're doing and how you're doing it? I've had a quick look through the topic and seen you want to create a Parliament as the true voice of the nation but there are many things to consider. How is the division on the 3 principle powers? Executive, Legislative and Judicial? Does the Head of State have any form of reserve powers to intervene within legislative/executive/judicial branches? What's the role of the Head of State?
How is the parliament formed? A single house, or two houses? The powers it holds?
I take it you are keeping a form of republic?
Yes,
It would be like this
The President and the Ministher is the highest leaders of the nation (Due to the fact we dont want to rush and go full democracy before we dont see how it works realised first).
The Parliament has the second lead. Parlament has authority over courts and over other government agencies, however , that authority is supervised by Gandalf and Aragorn to make sure it is not abused.
City councils have the power over a certain city, they're supervised by the Parliament.
We're also suggesting that there might be a commission made out of current ADM members to make sure that our vision is not being broken.
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Will there only be one position for Head of State in your proposal? As I see now both the President and Prime Minister are both Head of State and Head of Government. Wouldn't it be wise for the Head of State to be the President and then have an elected Prime Minister via an election or party election?
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Will there only be one position for Head of State in your proposal? As I see now both the President and Prime Minister are both Head of State and Head of Government. Wouldn't it be wise for the Head of State to be the President and then have an elected Prime Minister via an election or party election?
As i said before, our way of democracy wouldnt be instant . We want to move towards our goal step-by-step. We should try our mild way of democracy first, so we can see how it works out. Once that's done and if it works perfectly, we can move on with more advanced democracy, such as the one you mentioned.
Post Merge: November 14, 2012, 02:14:59 pm
2012.11.14 21:00 (9:00 CET) - Argonath Democracy Movement closed meeting.
Topic of the meeting:
Revised system, functionality of the democratical government in other states besides San Andreas.
I will have a TS Channel made, once you're in there, send me a TS PM or poke me and i will give you the password.
Post Merge: November 14, 2012, 06:13:11 pm
Postponed, 2012.11.16 20:00 CET
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In game name and roleplay name: [NP]Lionel_Valdes; 'Supreme Lord' Sergio Lionel Valdes
Political and religious views?: I believe that every citizen of the United States of Argonath is equal to another, be it rich, poor. What matters is that a human is a human, a citizen is a citizen. A citizen with rights, and there is absolutely no reason for rights' negligence. I also believe that he possess the freedom of speech and I absolutely support the existence of an actual parliament. I believe that all religions are equal and all have one and only purpose: A FINE WORLD. Some say that holy books other than 'Quran' have been modified to the worst. Those persons also say that the holy books content was the same.. They say 'Why not did God create only one book? That's because other books were modified and Quran cannot be modified because it is protected.'
I repeat, I believe that all religions are the same and equal, this should not be a reason for discrimination.
Your opinion about current Argonath Political system?:
Having two owners as the presidents is actually not a bad idea, as they are the ultimate power and deserve that for their efforts.
But!
I was thinking of something new, something fresh, something innovative.
Ministers!
This is my idea:
Ministers
Ministry personnel
Ministry writers
Ministers' Representatives (Those who will be able to do press conferences on behalf of the ministers)
Ministries:
Ministry of Health (Head of hospitals and emergency services)
Ministry of Internal Affairs (Head of law enforcement services aka ARPD Commissioner)
Ministry of Agriculture (-)
Ministry of Education (Possible head of CMB and similar services?)
Ministry of Scientific Research (Pure roleplay)
This is all I have in mind now.
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In game name and roleplay name: Halt
Political and religious views?: I've always supported Democracy and the Liberal Party of Australia. I'm a christian (Anglican)
Your opinion about current Argonath Political system?: I have no problems with Argonath's current political system, but I wouldn't having a say in it's matters and issues.