Argonath RPG - A World of its own
Argonath RPG Community => Speakerbox => World and local news => Topic started by: Reece on January 23, 2013, 08:17:05 pm
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David Cameron has rebuffed criticism at home and abroad of his commitment to hold a referendum on the UK's future in Europe if he wins the next election.
Labour and the Lib Dems have said plans to renegotiate the UK's membership and put it to a public vote was a gamble and against the national interest.
France and Germany warned the UK against pursuing an "a la carte" approach. The US said the UK and the EU were stronger together.
But the PM said he had public backing.
And he said Labour's arguments were "fatally undermined" by confusion over their own position.
Mr Cameron's promise to give the British people "their say" on Europe - in the form of an in/out referendum to be held before 2018 - has been welcomed by most Conservative MPs and eurosceptics in other parties.
MPs will get the opportunity to debate the plan in the House of Commons next Wednesday.
At the next election - expected in 2015 - the Conservative leader said his party would offer people a "simple choice" between staying in the EU under new terms, or leaving the 27-member union altogether.
'Destiny'
He said the issue of the UK's future in Europe would not "go away" and now was the right time to confront it when the EU was set to go through a period of profound change amid calls for further integration.
In a long-awaited speech, Mr Cameron said the referendum would be a decision on the UK's "destiny" and, if he secured a new relationship he was happy with, he would campaign "heart and soul" to stay within the EU.
While he believed the UK could survive outside the EU, he said withdrawal would be a "one-way ticket" and he appealed for "cool heads" in the debate to come.
The prime minister rejected suggestions that a new relationship was "impossible to achieve" and dismissed calls for the referendum to be held sooner, saying such a "momentous decision" must wait until the UK's relationship with the EU "had been put right".
"Our approach is what the British people want. It is right for business, right for the economy and we will fight for it in the years ahead."
However, Mr Cameron did not spell out what powers he would like to see the UK take back as part of a new settlement or what would happen if the negotiations did not go his way.
'Wriggle room'
The Conservative leader has been under pressure from many of his MPs to give a binding commitment to a vote on Europe.
But Foreign Secretary William Hague told the BBC that Mr Cameron's message was not "confined or directed" to his backbenchers or those voters attracted by the UK Independence Party's call for EU withdrawal and should resonate across Europe
"It is not the Conservative Party he is speaking to. It is the British public and the European public."
Conservative MPs who want a looser relationship with the EU welcomed Mr Cameron's promise and said it had united the party.
One MP, Mark Reckless, even suggested Mr Cameron had left his own position in a referendum "up for grabs" and had the "wriggle room" to campaign for an exit if he believed this was the only option left for Britain.
Labour said Mr Cameron was "going to put Britain through years of uncertainty, and take a huge gamble with our economy".
But their leader Ed Miliband came under pressure himself after he appeared to go further than he has done before and told MPs that he opposed the idea of an in/out referendum.
The opposition have previously declined to rule out a referendum in the future while arguing that now is not the right time for one, but party sources insisted their position had not changed.
'Ill-defined'
Lib Dem leader Nick Clegg, who is also deputy prime minister, said there was a "right place and right time" for a referendum.
But he added: "My view is that years and years of uncertainty because of a protracted, ill-defined renegotiation of our place in Europe is not in the national interest because it hits growth and jobs."
The UK Independence Party said the "genie was out of the bottle" about a possible exit from the EU but acknowledged that winning a referendum on a platform for withdrawal would not be easy.
Conservatives have said their reform message is likely to win favour with European allies such as Sweden and the Netherlands.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel said she would listen to British "wishes" but her foreign minister Guido Westerwelle said "cherry picking is not an option" before adding that Europe needed more, not less, integration.
And French foreign minister Laurent Fabius warned: "You can't do Europe a la carte... to take an example which our British friends will understand - imagine Europe is a football club and you join, once you're in it you can't say 'Let's play rugby'".
President Obama's press secretary, Jay Carney said he welcomed Mr Cameron's call for Britain to remain in the European Union, adding: "We believe that the United Kingdom is stronger as a result of its European Union membership and we believe the European Union is stronger as a result of having the United Kingdom in the EU."
No 10 said the British public would have the final say.
Q&A
What has happened?
Prime Minister David Cameron has delivered a speech (full text) setting out his views on the UK's future in the European Union. The speech has been months in the planning.
Why the big deal about the speech?
Mr Cameron had been facing mounting pressure from within the Eurosceptic ranks of his own Conservative Party, and the UK Independence Party, who are unhappy with the current relationship between the UK and the European Union. There have been calls for a referendum to be held, and his own MPs want to see action on the Conservative election pledge to "bring back" powers to Westminster from Brussels. For months now, the promise has been that these questions will all be answered in a big speech.
So what did Cameron say?
Mr Cameron said he plans to renegotiate parts of the UK's relations with Europe and put that changed membership package to the British people in an in-out referendum after the next general election, by the end of 2017. That, obviously, also depends on the Conservatives winning a majority in 2015. To see more of what he said, here are selection of key extracts from the speech.
What sorts of powers does the UK want back?
The prime minister did not spell this out in his speech, but there is a cross-government audit currently under way looking at where the EU has powers over life in the UK. The idea is that each one will then be examined to see whether it is necessary or whether the power could be "brought back" to the UK. Areas it might include are the Working Time Directive, which imposes employment rules such as limiting the working week and giving EU workers a minimum number of holidays each year. The UK is also keen on opt-outs from policing and criminal justice measures. The 2010 Conservative manifesto said: "We will work to bring back key powers over legal rights, criminal justice and social and employment legislation to the UK."
Why does Cameron think he can agree changes with EU leaders?
The recent eurozone crisis has led those countries using the single currency to believe that they need closer integration in future - a move which will further increase the gap between the euro and non-euro EU members. Mr Cameron says there needs to be a new EU treaty to facilitate the eurozone integration, so, as part of negotiations, there is a chance to redefine the membership rules for countries like the UK.
So does this all mean that the UK's going to leave the EU?
David Cameron said that he opposed the idea of the UK leaving the EU (the UK joined when it was the European Economic Community, in 1973). However he did say during a recent BBC radio interview: "Would Britain collapse if we left the European Union? No, of course not. You could choose a different path. The question is, what is in our national interest? I've always been very clear it's in our national interest as a trading nation to be in the single market."
What has been the reaction in the UK?
Eurosceptics seem seem pretty happy with the speech - it has been very warmly welcomed by Conservative MPs. Although the UK Independence Party said it wanted a referendum sooner, party leader Nigel Farage called the PM's promise of an in/out referendum his party's greatest achievement.
Pro-Europeans have been unhappy with the speech - Deputy Prime Minister Nick Clegg warned that proposing a referendum at a future date causes uncertainty and will have a "chilling effect" on jobs and growth. Ex-European Commissioner and Labour cabinet minister Lord Mandelson called it "game, set and match" to the hardliners in Mr Cameron's party.
The BBC has compiled a selection of responses to the speech.
What about the reaction around Europe?
The BBC's Steve Evans in Berlin said opinion was hardening in Germany and France, with many politicians believing that those opposed to further European integration would be better off "leaving gracefully". Guido Westerwelle, German foreign minister, said "cherry picking is not an option". French foreign minister Laurent Fabius said: "We want the British to be able to bring all their positive characteristics to Europe... but you can't do Europe a la carte. I'll take an example which our British friends will understand. Let's imagine Europe is a football club and you join, but once you're in it you can't say, 'Let's play rugby'." Read more EU reaction.
What about the reaction from business?
A succession of business leaders have spoken up in favour of UK membership of the EU and the US and a range of European politicians have also warned of negative results if the UK left the EU. Some business leaders, such as IG Group founder Stuart Wheeler and Next boss Lord Wolfson, have also called for changes in the UK's relationship with the EU. The director general of the employers' group the CBI, John Cridland, said "closer union of the eurozone is not for us" but Mr Cameron "rightly recognises the benefits of retaining membership of what must be a reformed EU".
MORE: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21170265 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-21170265)
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No vote until 2017? Holy shit thats a long time.. I say the UK should leave anyway, the UK is a union in a union, and that won't really work out no matter how many threats and talks both sides throw at eachother.
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With my extremely limited knowledge of the politics, I can think the only real bad reason for leaving EU will be losing out with trade.
And it's not as if we will lose all trade. We just need to trade more with China. Make them our new friends!
I would support it to reduce immigration, reduce tax money going to bale out EU countries. Lets face it - UK is not exactly a manufacturing powerhouse anymore...
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What doesn't make sense to me is their first argument:
Labour and the Lib Dems have said plans to renegotiate the UK's membership and put it to a public vote was a gamble and against the national interest.
If the public is voting on it, how in the hell would it be against the national interest when their votes are the national interest?
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With my extremely limited knowledge of the politics, I can think the only real bad reason for leaving EU will be losing out with trade.
And it's not as if we will lose all trade. We just need to trade more with China. Make them our new friends!
I would support it to reduce immigration, reduce tax money going to bale out EU countries. Lets face it - UK is not exactly a manufacturing powerhouse anymore...
Hell fucking yes! Migration because of the EU is pathetic, migrants are just flooding into the UK like no tomorrow because of the shitty EU open border policy's, and yeh the UK should be trading more with China other than the EU, who has more money? :lol:
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If the public is voting on it, how in the hell would it be against the national interest when their votes are the national interest?
In other words, the Tories are concerned that the "Immigrants are stealing our jobs!" crowd come out and vote in favour of the UK leaving the EU.
I'm a bit torn on the situation, however certain factors such as the overwhelming power the EU holds over our legal system is swaying me in favour of leaving the EU. Not to mention some of the ridiculous outcomes of certain cases as a result of the intervention of the ECHR.
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I find the fact that some chap in Brusseles can over-rule our Supreme Court absurd.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/european-court-blocks-extradition-by-uk-of-alleged-bin-laden-aide (http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/european-court-blocks-extradition-by-uk-of-alleged-bin-laden-aide)
This is one of the many reasons why I no longer support the EU.
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I find the fact that some chap in Brusseles can over-rule our Supreme Court absurd.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/european-court-blocks-extradition-by-uk-of-alleged-bin-laden-aide (http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/european-court-blocks-extradition-by-uk-of-alleged-bin-laden-aide)
This is one of the many reasons why I no longer support the EU.
The EU shouldn't even have a say in the situation unless it affects the EU as a whole. I agree with you Reece, that is ridiculous.
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The EU shouldn't even have a say in the situation unless it affects the EU as a whole. I agree with you Reece, that is ridiculous.
Well yeah, part of being a member state of the EU is that we surrender our parliamentary sovereignty. Any law that we attempt to implement has to be in accordance with the EU.
It's all a load of crap really, and has led to some unbelievable occurences in recent years.
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With the current financial crisis the European Union is suffering, it seems wise to get out.
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With the current financial crisis the European Union is suffering, it seems wise to get out.
Agreed. If the EU collapses and takes everyone down with it, then it's only a matter of time until the backlash hits the US and takes it down too. Once that happens, the world economy will fall apart.
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Lithuania should do the same
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I find the fact that some chap in Brusseles can over-rule our Supreme Court absurd.
http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/european-court-blocks-extradition-by-uk-of-alleged-bin-laden-aide (http://www.thenational.ae/news/world/middle-east/european-court-blocks-extradition-by-uk-of-alleged-bin-laden-aide)
This is one of the many reasons why I no longer support the EU.
The EU shouldn't even have a say in the situation unless it affects the EU as a whole. I agree with you Reece, that is ridiculous.
First off The European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with European Union, but all the European countries including Serbia, Albania and Norway.
Second The European Court of Human Rights deals with the situations where the person thinks that the court of the country he is being persecuted in is not being fair and I think it's only fair if he then seeks the judgment of even higher courts or other countries. For example In Estonia Anna Maria Galojan was sentenced to prison for her crimes, she then fled to UK, where she will have another trial to determine if UK will give her out to Estonia and it's her right. Analogue situation applies to Julian Assange and his case.
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First off The European Court of Human Rights has nothing to do with European Union, but all the European countries including Serbia, Albania and Norway.
Second The European Court of Human Rights deals with the situations where the person thinks that the court of the country he is being persecuted in is not being fair and I think it's only fair if he then seeks the judgment of even higher courts or other countries. For example In Estonia Anna Maria Galojan was sentenced to prison for her crimes, she then fled to UK, where she will have another trial to determine if UK will give her out to Estonia and it's her right. Analogue situation applies to Julian Assange and his case.
Sorry, that was the wrong article. I can't find the name of the person who I was looking for, but he appealed to the European Court of Justice and they over rules us, which is absurd. We should have sole control over our laws, not some guy in Brussels.
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I don't see why the US is so bothered. If we do become EU independant then we will probably end up with a better US/UK trade deal as well as with other countries which being in the EU was restricting us from doing. Yes the EU has good points to our trade but migration is a huge issue for us. Unemployment is high and British people need to take those jobs. Finally we should be able to regain at least some control over our borders and we need to take example from Australian border control authorities who don't take s**t.
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example from Australian border control authorities who don't take s**t.
Too much nothing to declare.
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Too much nothing to declare.
We definitely need to tighten our border control. We are getting overpopulated, but still allowing immigrants in.
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I don't see why the US is so bothered. If we do become EU independant then we will probably end up with a better US/UK trade deal as well as with other countries which being in the EU was restricting us from doing. Yes the EU has good points to our trade but migration is a huge issue for us. Unemployment is high and British people need to take those jobs. Finally we should be able to regain at least some control over our borders and we need to take example from Australian border control authorities who don't take s**t.
You serious?
Here goes the 'Mikal believing in shitty conspiracies' posts, but I truly believe the USA still has it in for the UK, they forced the UK to get rid of it's empire which resulting in massive loss of economy growth due to all the trade that came with it, they funded the nazi's into power knowing it was the way to get rid of the empire completely, it got out of hand and they ruined the whole of Europe and the UK, then the US decided to come along and play hero by 'helping' the UK out of it's problems, which put the UK into alot of debt with them, they want the UK to stay in the EU because the EU is the single thing that is ruining the UK and once again reducing the UK's power, the EU's economy will be smaller than the UK's by the end of this year, which is also why they want the UK to stay in, the UK can't keep it's pounds forever and will eventually have to change to Euro if the UK does stay in the EU, which will just ruin the UK's economy even more, TBH I still believe the US government still enjoys seeing the UK struggle to keep going, and wants to see it struggle for aslong as possible, aslong as they stay the super power and have control over people they don't give two shits, this is why I support China taking the 'super power' title within the next 40 years, it will piss the US government off.
Screw the EU, it's nothing but a power hungry union that lacks the economy to keep itself going.
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Mikal we are still one of the "Top 5" and for a country of our size that is pretty impressive. If you believe in that conspiracy then I know which way you will be voting in 2017 :lol:
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Mikal as you know I'm all for leaving the EU, but if we did we'd basically have to get right in with the US.
Frankly from an economic point of view, the major problem with the EU is that the euro is fucking stupid and doesn't work. The economies of the member states are simply not as compatible as they would need to be for a single currency to work.
From other points of view, there are more issues with EU membership than just the single currency.
But hey, the vote won't even happen if Labour get in, but then if that happens we're pretty much fucked anyway.
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Mikal as you know I'm all for leaving the EU, but if we did we'd basically have to get right in with the US.
Frankly from an economic point of view, the major problem with the EU is that the euro is f**king stupid and doesn't work. The economies of the member states are simply not as compatible as they would need to be for a single currency to work.
From other points of view, there are more issues with EU membership than just the single currency.
But hey, the vote won't even happen if Labour get in, but then if that happens we're pretty much f**ked anyway.
I don't think Labour have much of a shot this time round, not with that pompous arrogant man leading the party.
I reckon UKIP will do extremely will next time around.
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Mikal we are still one of the "Top 5" and for a country of our size that is pretty impressive. If you believe in that conspiracy then I know which way you will be voting in 2017 :lol:
I don't just believe, I say it's true, the US government loves to see the UK suffer and go to them for help. :D
And damn right top 5 is good for a country the size of the UK, TBH it should be 4th because India has man power but no technology. :razz:
Mikal as you know I'm all for leaving the EU, but if we did we'd basically have to get right in with the US.
Frankly from an economic point of view, the major problem with the EU is that the euro is f**king stupid and doesn't work. The economies of the member states are simply not as compatible as they would need to be for a single currency to work.
From other points of view, there are more issues with EU membership than just the single currency.
But hey, the vote won't even happen if Labour get in, but then if that happens we're pretty much f**ked anyway.
And Labour might actually get in, a mass majority of British voters are on benefits which Labour seems to feed to their voters on a giant spoon, they cut the military budget, cut everything logical and max out on benefits, this is why they always have so many votes.
I don't think Labour have much of a shot this time round, not with that pompous arrogant man leading the party.
I reckon UKIP will do extremely will next time around.
I support UKIP, they would create SOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many jobs and get rid of the EU, all the EU does is encourage migrants to come to the UK, we don't need anymore migrants.. We don't have enough work to go round as it is nevermind thousands of more people coming in looking for work.
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I reckon UKIP will do extremely will next time around.
I reckon that it will be between Labour and UKIP for the next general election. The Tories really have done nothing whilst they have been in government, just umed and arhhed over the decisions on top of all of the cuts they have brought to vital services like the police, medical and defence.
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I reckon that it will be between Labour and UKIP for the next general election.
AV didn't go through, so we're still on the old system.
Under that system, it'd surprise me if UKIP got more than 1 or 2 seats. The tories are the only hope we have for the next election.
on top of all of the cuts they have brought to vital services like the police, medical and defence.
Which are because of Labour, to be fair.
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Which are because of Labour, to be fair.
Yes Labour. In other words Gordon Brown (bigot) who shouldn't even have been the Prime Minister.
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Fuck David Cameron.
Fuck EU.
That's all I gotta say on this subject.
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Fuck David Cameron.
Fuck EU.
You pretty much summed up this topic.
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It'll be really funny to see what UK is going to do after leaving EU ;D Such an intelligent move
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It'll be really funny to see what UK is going to do after leaving EU ;D Such an intelligent move
Be the small but powerful union it was before it joined the EU...? :poke:
At the end of the day, David Cameron knows the larger majority of the British public wants to leave the EU and so he's started this little 'campaign' of his so that his party gets re-elected in the next election, everyone would be better off voting UKIP.
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Be the small but powerful union it was before it joined the EU...? :poke:
That part indeed :)
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Be the small but powerful union it was before it joined the EU...? :poke:
True, we cannot move forward when we are under strict control and have to go through other countries to get things done. I also think Cameron realises the 'threat' of UKIP who are gaining popularity and it's most likely a stunt to get people back on the Conservatives side.
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In theory this would be a smart move (leaving the EU), but in the end I think there'll be more downsides to it than upsides. Nonetheless, I'd prefer to see the UK as an independent nation, just like I'd prefer seeing the Netherlands as independent.
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True, we cannot move forward when we are under strict control and have to go through other countries to get things done. I also think Cameron realises the 'threat' of UKIP who are gaining popularity and it's most likely a stunt to get people back on the Conservatives side.
I still can't believe some random in Brussels has say in the British courts system, thats just outrageous.. The UK has dealt with it's own courts all through the British Empire, well did..
In theory this would be a smart move (leaving the EU), but in the end I think there'll be more downsides to it than upsides. Nonetheless, I'd prefer to see the UK as an independent nation, just like I'd prefer seeing the Netherlands as independent.
Well your government doesn't think so, infact they keep 'shouting' at David Cameron over his choice about this referendum.
What down sides can come from leaving? I mean there wasn't any downsides for the UK before in joined, the country was running perfect as it was. :roll:
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The UK does not at all benefit from the EU at the moment, the money spent on bailouts, the immigrants who aren't contributing anything to the country, the VAT we're giving away and not to mention our ridiculously high membership fee. The quicker we get out - the better...
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So the people won't get to vote before 2018?
Well that's... worthless.
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What down sides can come from leaving? I mean there wasn't any downsides for the UK before in joined, the country was running perfect as it was. :roll:
Our economy is in no state to cope independently from the EU.
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It's just a political move to win back support from UKIP voters. That's all it is, he knows it would be quite the economic disaster to leave the EU.
Nonetheless, I'll be voting to leave. yolo
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Our economy is in no state to cope independently from the EU.
Yes it is... if we will most likely still be losing money, but at reduced rate compared to what we're at now.
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So the people won't get to vote before 2018?
Well that's... worthless.
Only if the Conservatives get in again, and it's 2017.
If UKIP get in, they will start the process of leaving almost immediately.
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I listened to Cameron's speech a few days ago... he talked about a lot of good points, but unsure what exactly the solid steps are. I suppose largely it's an opinion thing than the decision being empirical for the greater majority.
As it is the UK cannot move itself geographically. While it can break official ties with the EU, it is still part of Europe and the nation's natural allies are across the sea.
I think there is just a lot to be done internally before pitching such a "heavy" referendum to the public. Who knows, after the next general election the picture may be different again. We expect some other referendums/constitutional in the meanwhile, such as those related to the Scottish Parliament and its status.
With a referendum it's not directly binding and the outcome is not one that has to be followed, but more so something that is good to be passed.
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If Labour gets in there will be no chance of leaving the EU, and I don't know why people keep saying the UK's economy isn't in any state to manage independent from the EU, the EU doesn't really help the economy now as it is, and the UK's economy will be larger than the EU's by the time this year ends, so if anything it's the EU's economy that needs the UK, not the other way round.
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If UK withdraws from the EU, they will be able to stop the so called 'job-stealing' immigrants from immigration to the UK?
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If UK withdraws from the EU, they will be able to stop the so called 'job-stealing' immigrants from immigration to the UK?
Yes as they won't have the 'easy' access to the UK that they currently do. ;)
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Cameron in his speech mentioned that there would be no going back if the UK pulled out.
I am not sure how much that stands up in the long term, but if that is the case it will be a tough decision. Compromising with other European powers may help that part of the world strive economically someway down the line.
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Cameron in his speech mentioned that there would be no going back if the UK pulled out.
I am not sure how much that stands up in the long term, but if that is the case it will be a tough decision. Compromising with other European powers may help that part of the world strive economically someway down the line.
The EU is destined to fail, they cannot manage basic financing, they threw shitloads at Greece without keeping an eye on it and look what happend, the UK is better out of the EU anyways, less migrants.. Even Sweden has the same problem.
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The EU is destined to fail, they cannot manage basic financing, they threw shitloads at Greece without keeping an eye on it and look what happend, the UK is better out of the EU anyways, less migrants.. Even Sweden has the same problem.
Migrants add to the workforce... but... the UK is physically restricted. It's not a large country and it's not one where hundreds of millions can live and work side by side.
The EU, like the United Nations, is a great concept but with each country having their own priorities and different needs, it's tricky to make it effective across the whole continent.
For that matter, perhaps the EU should take on more of a role like the UN and perhaps draw away from the economic, semi-judicial and political side of it in the core.
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Yes, the migrants add to the work force which is completely full and makes people born in the UK struggle to get a job. :poke: