Argonath RPG - A World of its own
GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: CBFasi on May 18, 2013, 12:24:53 pm
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This topic www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=18054.0 (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=18054.0) has a lot of very useful information in, and has also of most importance the owners interpretation of our rules.
This means that just because its not in the main rules does not mean you can do it!!
CHECK the above topic, have a read, it may enlighten you to how we should be playing here on Argonath.
A lot of what is in that topic IS questions from players who have had uncertainty as to a what is right and wrong, most of the answers show that we are trying to be a fair server.
An example is SPAWNKILLIING its not allowed and I had this double checked with Gandalf last night.. but he said almost 3 years ago
Spawnkilling is not allowed, however entering/exiting a house is not spawning.
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It's more of an issue regarding lack of respect for one another, and lack of common sense that causes the issues, than a lack of reading rules.
Another thing, besides just those two, are just smartasses who try to bend the rules to their own favour and ambition.Then cry about how the rules cannot be understanded in order to seed confusion to make their "epic" get away.
I think the rules are clear on what cannot and can be done, sure. Even I think some rules could have a closer look regarding the content. But in general, they are as clear as taking a nail and hammering it down. Straight forward.
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The rules are limited and anyone with common sense can understand what is or what is not allowed.
If someone wants to do spawnkilling, let them explain what roleplay reason they have for it.
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An example is SPAWNKILLIING its not allowed and I had this double checked with Gandalf last night.. but he said almost 3 years ago
If spawnkilling isn't entering or exiting a building, then what is it? Killing people that respawn after they died, but that's just plain deathmatch.
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Common sense is not so common.
It is a reasonable suggestion for someone to summarise scenarios in that topic where players have commonly fallen prey.
For example, being able to defend yourself from DMers as preached by Aragorn has been rumoured to be replaced with /report - summarised clarifications are needed for wider good.
Common Sense - Take it Easy (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gXwY4AaqBHk#)
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For example, being able to defend yourself from DMers as preached by Aragorn has been replaced with /report - summarised clarifications are needed for wider good.
That hasn't changed, you may defend yourself against a death-matcher as long as you're not pursuing him, so if you're shot by a death-matcher you may shoot back. Or you may instead choose to report it to the admins. What we ask is that you do not do both because if you fight back and report it, when spectated it may look like you are the aggressor if observed mid-fight.
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Common sense is not so common.
It is a reasonable suggestion for someone to summarise scenarios in that topic where players have commonly fallen prey.
For example, being able to defend yourself from DMers as preached by Aragorn has been rumoured to be replaced with /report - summarised clarifications are needed for wider good.
The question has be answered once again. And it has been noticed more than once that certain groups consider a single punch to be an attack by a DMer and reason to open fire as a group, even pursuing the player should he attempt to run away. That is not called defense, it is called using any excuse to DM others.
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That hasn't changed, you may defend yourself against a death-matcher as long as you're not pursuing him, so if you're shot by a death-matcher you may shoot back. Or you may instead choose to report it to the admins. What we ask is that you do not do both because if you fight back and report it, when spectated it may look like you are the aggressor if observed mid-fight.
The question has be answered once again. And it has been noticed more than once that certain groups consider a single punch to be an attack by a DMer and reason to open fire as a group, even pursuing the player should he attempt to run away. That is not called defense, it is called using any excuse to DM others.
I agree with you both, although it's becoming clear through players views that the transparency of the rules could be improved. It's my suggestion, to summarise the SA:MP developers questions topic, by common scenarios (like my example) which players can refer to as a handy guide instead of ploughing through pages upon pages which is not fit for purpose.
It’s a process improvement, nothing more.
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Seems like a good idea. I'll take a look into getting that done.
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I think most important rules from the developers section should be summarized and added to the official rules topic.
Yes, it might take a long time but then you at least have something stronger to rely on.
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It's good that stuff like this is discussed openly like we do here.
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I think most important rules from the developers section should be summarized and added to the official rules topic.
Yes, it might take a long time but then you at least have something stronger to rely on.
The misconception is that the developers topic contains rules. It does not.
What is does contain is the developers interpretation of situations based upon the rules. There for while a summary of the 90 pages could be helpful, it should not be added to the official rules, as it does not contain any new rule.
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The misconception is that the developers topic contains rules. It does not.
What is does contain is the developers interpretation of situations based upon the rules. There for while a summary of the 90 pages could be helpful, it should not be added to the official rules, as it does not contain any new rule.
My apologies, I ment that the clarifications of the rules in the developers topic should be added to the rules.
That way the administration team has something stronger to rely on. (For example: Jack Rosso's recent ban)
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Admin team has already something strong to rely on :
- Search function
- Topics on admins boards
- Ask directly a Manager+
- Common sense
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Admin team has already something strong to rely on :
- Search function
- Topics on admins boards
- Ask directly a Manager+
- Common sense
Alright then, if you say my suggestion was unnecessary, nevermind it :)
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Alright then, if you say my suggestion was unnecessary, nevermind it :)
I think your suggestion is vaild Bundy and while Cyril's points are also vaild - people make errors, including admins and managers. It would be useful for both to admins and players to have a reliable source of information which is accessible to both. Afterall, we are all striving for the same which is to stay inside the rules and their categorisations.
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Alright then, if you say my suggestion was unnecessary, nevermind it :)
It would be useful to summarise the various interpretations of the rules as stated in the Developer's Answers thread, it will take a while but I'll get that done. It won't be for every answer given, but for whatever seems to be causing confusion or appears ambiguous.
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I didn't say it was unnescessary, but while general information about situations may be useful, each case and scenario are unique.
Even if you summarize everything that was posted here, I doubt it'll change anything since everyone has his own view and way to play.
To know if what you are doing is against the rules or not, your best friend is common sense.
Rules are just the base. Each time you are going to do something and you are unsure of if it's allowed or not, you may read the basic rules and ask yourself if any of your future actions is going to be against one (or multiple) rules. If you couldn't find any answer, you can search by keywords on the forum or ask an admin+
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My apologies, I ment that the clarifications of the rules in the developers topic should be added to the rules.
That way the administration team has something stronger to rely on. (For example: Jack Rosso's recent ban)
Both the punishment and ban of Jack_Rosso were fully warranted within the current rules. There is no need to extend them for that.
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The Argonath rules are simple, but effective. Therefore, they can apply to an enormous variety of situations without the need to extend them into a rulebook, the situations in question being easily determinable by common sense.
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The rules are limited and anyone with common sense can understand what is or what is not allowed.
The Argonath rules are simple, but effective. Therefore, they can apply to an enormous variety of situations without the need to extend them into a rulebook, the situations in question being easily determinable by common sense.
"Common sense" does NOT abide and is NOT a valid reason not to elucidate the rules. (Btw, I googled that last word, figured "clarify" wouldn't cut it.)
The fact that this topic (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=18054.0) has been "actively" posted in since 2008 is proof enough.
(Above sentances are what common f**king sense actually is.)
I'm going to squeeze this little quote in 'ere and highlight some words so I can really get my point across.
For those arriving from other servers the style of Argonath which is skin-based rahter than character-based is often confusing. The possibility to one moment play a Jimmy Hendrix type, then change skin to a businessman and next play a police officer to conclude the day as granny is odd for those who were forced elsewhere to assume a single character and stay with it.
It would be useful to summarise the various interpretations of the rules as stated in the Developer's Answers thread, it will take a while but I'll get that done. It won't be for every answer given, but for whatever seems to be causing confusion or appears ambiguous.
Thank you, long live common sense.
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The topic was opened for the purpose it still serves. As questions have been asked more than once, they have been answered more than once.
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- Common sense
An example of why common sense is not a valid excuse to interpret rules:
Did you know that gravity greatly depends on the size of the object, therefore larger planets have stronger gravity?
Physicist: Duh, common sense!
It's a case of "your mileage may vary", everyone will never interpret one thing the same way.
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What about all the orange men and blue men that spawnkill eachother CONSTANTLY in 'roleplay' robbery situations in banks and such? Not that they are really roleplay, as the aim of the criminals isn't to rob the bank and get away, but to stand in the bank, call 911 and alert the cops they are robbing it, then wait for them all to turn up in the shitloads and spawn kill them all, people never really get punished for that, but what can you expect people to do? Wait for the cops to be able to move so they can kill you all?
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Does it say in the rules that, as an example, "cops on a cop bike that are shooting a vehicle" are the only exception to the "no driver driveby" rule?
Because.. that's completely nonsensical without some kind of explanation, and is just one of many examples of the rules being able to be interpreted in wildly different ways (by players and admins alike).
Also, you say that the dev answer thread has "no new rules", but developer interpretations of the base rules are what admins are meant to follow on the server and thus are rules. A new player would have to read through that entire dev answer thread or face several weeks/months of trial and error with multiple punishments incurred for breaking rules that they didn't even know existed.
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Does it say in the rules that, as an example, "cops on a cop bike that are shooting a vehicle" are the only exception to the "no driver driveby" rule?
Because.. that's completely nonsensical without some kind of explanation, and is just one of many examples of the rules being able to be interpreted in wildly different ways (by players and admins alike).
Also, you say that the dev answer thread has "no new rules", but developer interpretations of the base rules are what admins are meant to follow on the server and thus are rules. A new player would have to read through that entire dev answer thread or face several weeks/months of trial and error with multiple punishments incurred for breaking rules that they didn't even know existed.
You can't drive by as driver from any other vehicle anyway :lol:
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What about all the orange men and blue men that spawnkill eachother CONSTANTLY in 'roleplay' robbery situations in banks and such? Not that they are really roleplay, as the aim of the criminals isn't to rob the bank and get away, but to stand in the bank, call 911 and alert the cops they are robbing it, then wait for them all to turn up in the shitloads and spawn kill them all, people never really get punished for that, but what can you expect people to do? Wait for the cops to be able to move so they can kill you all?
I think I can speak for most FBI agents when I say we are fed up with the lack of roleplay in these situations even when we attempt to make contact it is obvious it's just an excuse for a DM fest. Sometimes we will go to about three a day and it's getting ridiculous. It may come to a point where we won't respond to these situations as our interaction with them is just encouraging them to carry on. In all my FBI career I have only see around 3 proper roleplay robberies and they were the most fun and also the smallest too.
On the situation of spawnkilling I think that if you enter a building with suspects you know that you will come under fire. It really is the same for both sides - they step out we fire, we step in suspects will fire. It would be as if walking through a door IRL, you are likely to come under fire before you have even entered. But I do think that an effort should be made to allow officers to move before firing. Sometimes people get caught in crossfire so it's not always possible.
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People entering the house after a police barricade has been put can lead to banning those who enter, and also to a group warning. Another possibility is to blow up all present in the house...
Spawnkilling is not allowed, however entering/exiting a house is not spawning.
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You can't drive by as driver from any other vehicle anyway :lol:
Well, before that script was put in then. Anyway my point still stands.
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The topic was opened for the purpose it still serves. As questions have been asked more than once, they have been answered more than once.
And so it shall continue.
My protest was, that if I want to find answers to various questions about how things are and should be and how I should behave, I have to browse through atleast 10+ boards to try and find a topic named "SA:MP - Developers answer: give examples", a title which doesn't even insinuate rules being inside them, rather a Q&A with scripters, then when I question the rules I get a "common sense brah" in response.
Now I personally do not have much problem with understanding the rules, I've been playing here since god only knows when and if I break a rule it'd most likely be knowingly, but when you advocate regulars teaching new players how the rules work you should expect various interpretations for each "generation" and it should be 'common sense' that you'd have a easy way of refering people to in-depth explanations of the rules, a FAQ about the rules even, f**k me, that'd be great.
There's even been times where I've been completely confused about some rules, I'm not going to make a list but I think the time where we had illegal ads being not so "rule-breakish" (before Aragorn came back and corrected it) makes a great example of "server-wide rule-confusion". Read Pandas post for another example.
Nevertheless Kojak said he'd do what's been asked to some extent, I'm very pleased.
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Well, before that script was put in then. Anyway my point still stands.
Answering on topic when you have not played for some time is pretty dangerous....
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Answering on topic when you have not played for some time is pretty dangerous....
Fair enough, but the problem has existed for several years, and certainly existed in a time when I was active. It never affected me as much as some people because I've read every single post in the dev answers thread since the date it was created, but for people joining after this time there can be confusion.
Look, I know that you're going for a simple list of rules, so that it doesn't become the essays that other servers have and actually expect people to remember, but you have to admit that the amount of exceptions to, and different interpretations of the rules can cause confusion.
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Unlike my colleagues here, I don't think that common sense is applicable when it comes to server rules; to me common sense is knowing not to walk in traffic, or stand in fire but not instinctively knowing what you can and cannot do in a SA:MP server especially if you are new to the game.
With that said however, the thing you all need to keep in mind is that Argonath is fairly unique in that is it very much a community game, not a pick up and play type game. Many of you have been part of the Argonath community for years regardless of how active you are in game and as such I expect you to know by now that we have to constantly adapt to the game and to the community.
I am always impressed with the levels of creativity shown by the community when it comes to bending or circumventing the rules, or manipulating a situation to their own advantage; that means the freedom we give you, relative to other RP servers, needs to be balanced by sometimes changing or adapting our interpretations of the rules, sometimes as a direct result of certain in-game incidents.
For that reason, while I am philosophically sympathetic to some of the concerns raised here, I must also completely support the sentiments of CBFASI's opening post. As long term members of the Argonath community you owe it yourselves to keep up to date with developments when it comes to our expectations of reasonable game play and it is also expected that you consider whether your actions are in tune with the community at large. Therefore, while it may not specifically state in the rules that spawn killing is not allowed for example, had you taken an active interest in what people like Gandalf and Aragorn as well as other members of HQ had been saying for years the doubt and confusion that some of you claim to be present would not exist to the same extent.
I do feel that summarising some of the posts in Developer's Answers would be helpful, and I do feel that some rules should be crystal clear, and that is something we will work on. But I also feel that you have an obligation to keep yourself up to date with the official position taken by the owners and developers given the special and unique nature of this game.
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Unlike my colleagues here, I don't think that common sense is applicable when it comes to server rules; to me common sense is knowing not to walk in traffic, or stand in fire but not instinctively knowing what you can and cannot do in a SA:MP server especially if you are new to the game.
Exactly my thoughts.
Post Merge: May 19, 2013, 01:55:27 pm
I am always impressed with the levels of creativity shown by the community when it comes to bending or circumventing the rules, or manipulating a situation to their own advantage;
But then it sounds like you haven't been in the adult world at all.
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Viewing that topic and asking for assistance isn't a reason of you being called a coward, rules are set so everyone could enjoy. Asking for assistance doesn't make you an ignorant or lowers your dignity, in fact, it's a way of learning. The bad thing is, none is remembered by the rules he/she follows, I barely hear people talking about people who had no punishment for an X amount of time. Always talking about what X person did to get banned and what X person did to get punished.
"You are remembered for the rules you break." â€â€ÂDouglas MacArthur