Argonath RPG - A World of its own

GTA:SA => SA:MP - San Andreas Multiplayer => SA:MP General => Topic started by: Huntsman on September 08, 2013, 03:50:51 pm

Title: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Huntsman on September 08, 2013, 03:50:51 pm
I'd like to bring something to the attention of Argonath Community leaders and administrators. We, as regular players, do not have access to administrator boards or certain sources of information, yet I see some administrators warning people for something that has been ordered by Gandalf, yet isnt listed in the rules. My friend recently got warned for using ELM while off cop duty, but it was never fobidden before and now out of nowhere it is, the admin justifies that it's a Gandalfs order, but how in the hell us, ordinary players, are supposed to be aware of such Gandalfs orders when it's not listen in the rules? Shouldn't the admins first make players aware and only then issue disciplinary actions? There were also pretty much the same situation regarding barricade suspect dm fests, nobody ever bothered about random citizens aiming mafia's in building take overs, but recently admins were on a ban spree on such players, saying that it is Gandalfs order. I support such a rule finally coming into affect, but i understand the players that got banned as well - THEY WERE NOT MADE AWARE OF IT.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Cyril on September 08, 2013, 05:19:44 pm
Search function to find all the answer you need.

Barricaded situation and late joining was made clear by Gandalf in 2010.. http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=18054.msg781801#msg781801

Yes, the /rules is not really up-to-date and I guess we are planning to update it for RS5 with all situation/rules that were explained accross the forum. However you can find all the answers by searching Gandalf posts about specific topics. That's what we do.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Stivi on September 08, 2013, 06:01:34 pm
I remember my cursed hotel in Verdant Bluffs when CBFasi banned like 3 or 4 people :o
Been in Argonath for longer than a year, I didn't knew that wasn't allowed.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: PSVITA on September 08, 2013, 06:18:01 pm
I will never understand why people constantly say that one must use the search funtion. Why cannot it just be implemented in /rules or something. Why do players constantly have to spend so much time in the forums to make sure that they do not miss anything? If a new player joins, and reads the rules, he/she will do things that are not stated in /rules and suddenly they get warned about it.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: PulseEffect on September 08, 2013, 06:27:38 pm
Pretty simple if a manager or CL made a rules topic in the SA:MP General Board or better yet, get Argonath Wiki back online.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Kojak on September 08, 2013, 06:38:11 pm
There is a set of rules that includes things like "No Deathmatching", "No Cheating" etc; these are our black and white rules which are always enforced. These are usually fairly obvious and most servers will have a similar set of rules.

Then there is guidance that has been offered to both admins and players over the years, this is the information that is typically found in the Developer's Answers thread (http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=18054.0) and includes things like Argonath's view on civilians entering a building after a police barricade has been established, or police committing crimes while on duty.

The problem with the guidance is it is rarely black and white, I'll give you an example. A police officer grows drugs on duty, is this allowed or not? The very simple answer is yes; but the not so simple answer is yes, but he should not use his position as police officer to give him an advantage in the drug trade such as suspecting the competition or using duty weapons. The even less simple answer is, well actually he can use his advantage as a cop and he can use his duty weapons, but only if he is properly role-playing a corrupt cop. Trying to tie all that up in a neat rule is not possible, so instead we offer guidance to admins about how they should approach a situation like that and the desirable way of dealing with it.

What admins should not do in situations like this is say, "Gandalf said you can't do that so you're banned". Admins are expected to think about a situation and react to it based on it's merits, not what someone wrote in a forum post four years ago. Admins can and should take the guidance and then adapt it to the situation they are witnessing, then make a decision. Admins have very broad discretionary powers and that is deliberate, we want them thinking and using their heads.

The Developer's Answers thread is long, as of the time of writing it is 96 pages long, and of course we do not expect you to trawl through that and then try to remember everything that was written. Instead what should be happening is when there is a situation that is not clear cut, admins should be talking to the players and explaining and passing on the guidance they have been given by the owners and developers, likewise players should accept this guidance and adopt it into their role-play; essentially what I am saying is that admins and players should be working together.

I did say some time back that I would collate all the information from the Developer's Answers thread and publish it, I have written this document now and at the moment it exists in the admin board so staff have a chance to digest it. I will make this document available to the community soon and hopefully that will help shed light on some of the grayer areas.

Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Def Perry on September 12, 2013, 06:35:43 pm
A while ago I started doing the same thing and gathered all these unwritten rules, or sub-rules.

I haven't spent a lot of time on it back then, although it may be useful regarding some daily situations. These rules were confirmed by Trane Kiedis back then.

* Can I make an advertisement regarding illegal stuff?

- Yes you can make an advertisement if it gives the police a probably cause to investigate.
- No you can't make an advertisement regarding doing something illegal if it is too obvious.


* When can we drive-by at the police if we are aiding a suspect in a vehicle?

- When you can drive-by at the police:

1. )  If you are suspected.
2. )  If you are involved in the role-play.  (Either from the beginning, or you get involved in the role-play)

- When you can not drive-by the police:

1. )  If you are not wanted and not involved in the role-play.

* Is it punishable to use the terms: Out of  Character / In Character?

-  It is against the vision of Argonath RPG, however it is not punishable to use it. In Argonath we rely on the fact that the person you role-play with knows when you are role-playing or not.

I hope I helped you out with some rules as I said, it was a while ago and I haven't spent much time on it.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Marcel on September 12, 2013, 06:55:29 pm
Hey Def, would it be a good idea to list these on the Wiki, like a knowledge bank? People who wish to gain more insight in the rules and inner workings of the RPG server can then read that and learn.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Nathan on September 12, 2013, 06:57:10 pm
A knowledge base will be good.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Def Perry on September 12, 2013, 07:53:02 pm
Hey Def, would it be a good idea to list these on the Wiki, like a knowledge bank? People who wish to gain more insight in the rules and inner workings of the RPG server can then read that and learn.
I do not have access to the wikipedia page, still feel free to do so. Kojak mentioned that he is soon publishing a more detailed version of the rules, so I advise to wait for that first.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Leon. on September 12, 2013, 11:36:11 pm
There are lots of "grey rules," and it can (and HAS) get pretty ridiculous sometimes. Spending time on the server accidentally breaking the "grey rules" and learning the hard way what those rules are over time is tedious and frustrating. Some people justify the "grey rules" by saying they are common sense. What they think is their 'common sense' is their experience on the server, not common sense. That's like an American telling an immigrant that the process for registering as a voter should be common sense.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Whiteman on September 12, 2013, 11:41:01 pm
My concern is, why is the modification of our own topics in the SAMP clans and groups restricted..?
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Nathan on September 13, 2013, 01:56:03 am
My concern is, why is the modification of our own topics in the SAMP clans and groups restricted..?

Because of people like me.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: SugarD on September 13, 2013, 01:59:57 am
My friend recently got warned for using ELM while off cop duty, but it was never fobidden before and now out of nowhere it is, the admin justifies that it's a Gandalfs order, but how in the hell us, ordinary players, are supposed to be aware of such Gandalfs orders when it's not listen in the rules?
Any mod that can be noticed by other players or admins is in princople forbidden.
The only exception is ELM, as long as it is used for emegency services only and installed without any additional features.
SA:MP General -> SA:MP Ideas.

I did say some time back that I would collate all the information from the Developer's Answers thread and publish it, I have written this document now and at the moment it exists in the admin board so staff have a chance to digest it. I will make this document available to the community soon and hopefully that will help shed light on some of the grayer areas.
I would love to see such published alongside the rules so players have easy access to them. The ones that affect the entire community overall should also be published alongside the community rules so there are no excuses that it was written only for one server.

As for the document overall, very nice work Kojak. I haven't seen it yet, but I am glad someone has pulled together all the information in a neat, easy-to-read way. People have been taking advantage of the unwritten rule situations on both sides for far too long, so thanks to your information, they will no longer have any excuses. :)

My concern is, why is the modification of our own topics in the SAMP clans and groups restricted..?
http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=93905.msg1497022#msg1497022

It's not just SA:MP ones. The board you are referring to affects the entire community.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Mr. Goobii on September 13, 2013, 02:00:13 am
Gandalf has no orders, sir
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: [NP]Monte Montague on September 20, 2013, 01:00:46 am
All rules needs to be listed.

I suggest the creation of "unwritten rules thread" where users can submit rules they have been told of, which can be listed as "correct rule" "made up".

Also, I remember one time I was kicked for saying "White players cannot help suspects, they need to be suspected first". Then Jcdstodds kicked me saying I made it up, as I could not find the thread where it was in, I was made to look a fool, but nowadays it is more well known, only took 2 years...
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: SugarD on September 20, 2013, 01:13:16 am
All rules needs to be listed.
I agree. I got so sick of these "unwritten rules" that I went through and typed all of them out for LU. I highly suggest servers do the same, even if they are rules that need to be explained based upon scenarios. People can't always guess what the rules are on their own. Some of them are common sense, but others are not. As long as we aren't creating rules that are restricting people's roleplay, it's not really a "jungle of rules", since they are already enforced.

As long as people continue to find new ways to break the rules, we'll have to find new ways to stop it. That doesn't necessarily mean creating new rules, however it does mean that we should be giving them decent examples of what is and isn't allowed under a specific action. Take killing another player, for example. It is fine within roleplay, but not outside of it. One could easily update the server rules to reflect this with an example or explanation right below the written rule. It would give people a better understanding of the rule's exact purpose and meaning, rather than a strict "it ain't happening" kind of thing.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Teddy on September 20, 2013, 06:51:19 am
The thing that gets me are the non-existent rules that everything thinks are rules, but really isn't. For example "no commenting on admin punishment", a majority of people think this rule exists when really id doesn't. The only point this is in violation is when it breaches another rule like provoking or flaming either the admin or punished player.

I would agree all rules should be listed, however you must keep in mind at the end of the day you are to follow the directions of the admins. That is a written rule, if they tell you something you should accept it until clarified otherwise by management or leadership.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Kojak on September 20, 2013, 02:37:55 pm
A full set of rules will be published shortly by Tom_Evans. He wanted the same thing but instead of asking for it he just did it which is the kind of initiative I appreciate. The set of rules needed some more detail so I have been working with him over the last couple of days, I expect it will be published later today or tomorrow.

There will be a new board created which will exclusively contain rules and guidelines for the server; in that the official rules will be placed plus a full summary of the guidance and desirable behaviour given by developers and owners over the years. Additionally any new information, such as updated clarification or changes to a rule, will be posted in that board.

Also, I remember one time I was kicked for saying "White players cannot help suspects, they need to be suspected first". Then Jcdstodds kicked me saying I made it up, as I could not find the thread where it was in, I was made to look a fool, but nowadays it is more well known, only took 2 years...

This is an excellent example of a rule that has been made up by the community and does not actually exist. There is no rule that says that non-suspects cannot assist suspects under any circumstances; there are in fact circumstances that fully allow it and that will be answered specifically when the full summary of guidance has been posted.

Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Stivi on September 20, 2013, 04:13:36 pm
Glad to hear, Kojak. I hope there will be no more misunderstandings now.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Def Perry on September 20, 2013, 10:23:16 pm
Thou shall not argue with a community leader.

[22:20:12] Jenna_Luciano was tempbanned by [Rstar]CBFasi(21) for 60 minutes for arguing with comunity leader.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Pandalink on September 20, 2013, 10:26:46 pm
I agree. I got so sick of these "unwritten rules" that I went through and typed all of them out for LU. I highly suggest servers do the same, even if they are rules that need to be explained based upon scenarios. People can't always guess what the rules are on their own. Some of them are common sense, but others are not. As long as we aren't creating rules that are restricting people's roleplay, it's not really a "jungle of rules", since they are already enforced.
Hey look at that, we finally agree on something.

The "you learn the rules when you get punished for breaking them" thing can be really shit for new players.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Kirgiz on September 21, 2013, 12:06:10 am
A full set of rules will be published shortly by Tom_Evans. He wanted the same thing but instead of asking for it he just did it which is the kind of initiative I appreciate.
That is really sad that regular players must take care of such issues.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: SugarD on September 21, 2013, 12:56:43 am
That is really sad that regular players must take care of such issues.
Kojak had actually volunteered to do it first. Tom_Evans was the one who took the initiative to do it for him instead. If anything, that shows that a regular player cares a lot about the community, and wishes to help out for nothing in return.

Hey look at that, we finally agree on something.

The "you learn the rules when you get punished for breaking them" thing can be really shit for new players.
Now I'm scared! :lol:

But yes, I agree. This can't go on...and this is something we need to address for all servers, as many of these rules are getting enforced community-wide, or have descriptions for them to be enforced as such.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Thom on September 21, 2013, 01:22:35 pm
Conclusing this discussion,for unwritten rules and generally rules with the topic me and Kojak made :)  http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=100219.0
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Lionel Valdes on September 21, 2013, 01:29:20 pm
You cannot force NOT to roleplay is also a rule.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: SugarD on September 21, 2013, 01:33:57 pm
You cannot force NOT to roleplay is also a rule.
Correct, as stated by Gandalf.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: [Rstar]Paul on September 21, 2013, 01:39:20 pm
Information about forcing and not forcing roleplay can be found on this link - http://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=88900.0
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Kojak on September 21, 2013, 02:11:56 pm
What has been posted today are the server rules; these are the fairly black and white rules that should be easy enough to apply to any situation.

What is still to come is the guidance; the guidance will be a list of example situations and the way Argonath developers expect players to handle them. These include things like civilians entering buildings that have been barricaded by police, escaping after surrendering and so on. It will also include things players are actually allowed to do which some might believe they cannot, growing weed while on police duty, defending yourself when attacked etc. Overall they should be considered rules but with conditions attached, i.e. you can do this action providing these circumstances exist etc.

Please do not start listing all the the things that have not been included in the list of rules published today; there is a great deal more to come in the form of the guidance.

Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Leon. on September 23, 2013, 12:52:20 am

This is an excellent example of a rule that has been made up by the community and does not actually exist. There is no rule that says that non-suspects cannot assist suspects under any circumstances; there are in fact circumstances that fully allow it and that will be answered specifically when the full summary of guidance has been posted.


I think what he means is the rule that you can't SHOOT at cops when you're white to help a friend or something, since they cannot return fire without suspecting.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Nexus_Riggs on September 23, 2013, 01:01:32 am
What has been posted today are the server rules; these are the fairly black and white rules that should be easy enough to apply to any situation.

What is still to come is the guidance; the guidance will be a list of example situations and the way Argonath developers expect players to handle them. These include things like civilians entering buildings that have been barricaded by police, escaping after surrendering and so on. It will also include things players are actually allowed to do which some might believe they cannot, growing weed while on police duty, defending yourself when attacked etc. Overall they should be considered rules but with conditions attached, i.e. you can do this action providing these circumstances exist etc.

Please do not start listing all the the things that have not been included in the list of rules published today; there is a great deal more to come in the form of the guidance.
That's a great idea and it will ease the confusion and conflicts players have with the administrations. I agree with the self defense, which should not be limited for players as crime rates are high on the server and it's part of their rights and constitution. Hoping to see these changes.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: McGarrett on September 24, 2013, 06:29:43 pm
Why can't everyone just be friends?  :(
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Thom on September 24, 2013, 06:38:27 pm
Why can't everyone just be friends?  :(

Because there are some people that can't even understand that you said.
Title: Re: Regarding the "Gandalfs orders"..
Post by: Def Perry on September 25, 2013, 01:13:46 pm
Please do not start listing all the the things that have not been included in the list of rules published today; there is a great deal more to come in the form of the guidance.
Could we have a list of which things will be published in the foreseeable future? This way we could help mentioning subjects which need clarity, otherwise some problems will never get a solution.
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