My opinion and some questions.

[kevinarens]

Howdy Argonathians,

In the last few weeks i am wondering about something..

1.

I see a lot of Argonathians being banned in the last few weeks for DM,Cophunting,Provoking,Etc
And i've noticed that there are a lot of people thinking Argonath RPG is a Cops and Robbers server.
It starts with 1 suspect and it ends in 16 suspects, do you think it is normal that cops are deploying Hunters or Rhinos against 16 suspects to kill them? This looks more like war than cops against 1/2 suspects.

2.

I am 100% sure that Criminals are RPing with other criminals and Cops are Rping with other cops.
We all like to RP with friends or people in the same group (Example: Criminals with criminals, cops with cops)
But why can't they RP with each other?
A situation that happened:
- Barricaded suspects situation, SAPD/FBI/SWAT/ARPD on scene.
The cops are trying to RP with the suspects.
FBI is negotiating with the suspects inside, SWAT is trying to use a new RP tactic. (I am not sure if i am allowed to say the new tactic, if i am not please delete the next sentence)
They are using a snake cam to look inside the building, how many suspects there are etc.
The suspects were warned that there was a snake cam coming inside, so they do not have to shoot the Officer that in this case was the snake cam.
We tried it twice, but the suspect just killed the Officer AKA snakecam.
meanwhile the FBI are trying to negotiate with the suspects, but they just IGNORE them.
So it looks like: they just want us to enter and to "DM".

3

I also have to say there are good criminals that are trying to RP with the cops,
And we were BOTH happy we were possible to RP with each other.
A situation:

- Suspect is evading with a bullet, after a pursuit i tell the bullet to pull over so we can TALK about it,
80% of the suspects will just step out of their car and kill me because i as a LEO am a  threat.
But i had a talk with the suspect, we did some RP and he took out his weapon.
He aimed at me but he did not shoot directly, and so did i.
We were still talking to each other, i am sure there are suspects that just would open fire without even trying to RP.
It was 1 vs 1, we were both a threat.
A FBI agent arrived and the suspects was starting to get nervous.
He was focused on the Agent, not on the Officer (me).
I took out my tazer but he saw it, so he started to shoot because he could do nothing about us.
The suspect was killed but we had some RP and we were both happy we had some RP because it makes it look real

Conclusion
Everyone in Argonath is capable of Roleplaying, situation 3 shows it is possible..
So here is my question:
Why can't criminals and officers Roleplay with each other?
Is it because they are a threat for each other, or do cops and criminals simply enjoy shooting against each other?
Well i prefer to Roleplay with other criminals, to make argonath even better!
I know i can't force you to roleplay, but always Dming is kind of boring after a while.
Or isn't it?
We as Argonath veterans have to TEACH new Argonathians, in RP and loyalty.
So please, i know we can both roleplay more..
I know it is nice to have an epic shootout, but RPing is nice too.
And i love to Roleplay with criminals as a cop, but it doesn't happen that much..
Just learn to not directly shoot a cop/criminal if you see him/her, try to talk with each other and solve it in a good way.

I am not PRO Cops, or PRO Criminals.
We are both doing it wrong, i just want to share my opinion with you guys.

[Padres]

The thing is that people who want to roleplay neither know if their opponent wants to roleplay with them or not.

Daily you encounter suspected people but you are never aware if they want to roleplay with you or not.

Let's start a situation with an idle suspect, brandishing a firearm. The individual is aware of the police's presence and keeps his firearm lowered.  The procedures advise the usage of pepper spray and baton, short: usage of LTL equipment, resulting into a completelly "denial" of roleplay as it usually works like this: LTL Usage UNTILL /gu or sign of surrender.
Once the suspect surrendered there is not much left to roleplay, maybe the cuffing/frisking process, propably a interrogation following, then it's over.

Personally I'd firstly aim at the suspect and communicate instead of constantly spraying him. My further actions depend on the suspect's actions though.


Moving on, You, as an Police Officer, actually have to show that you want to roleplay, otherwise your opponent will think that you do not wish to roleplay with him/her, ofcourse this also counts for the criminals.


Criminals are, infact, able to roleplay with Police Officers, but such situations are that rare because each party disagrees with the roleplaying capabilities of their opponent, I heard so many times that cops are unable to roleplay, but also the same for the opposite.


A last thing: You can never expect Police Officers to peacefully speak to a murderer, if you know what I mean

[Miller786]

I think that some cops should stop using their pepper spray instead of talking, escpecially if the suspects shows no threat, it becomes boring after while, all they do is shout: /gu and keeping spraying the suspect instead they could try to convince the suspect to give up.
Sometimes the spray is necessary but some people use it against the candy thieves.

[Gandalf]

The question your should really ask yourself is why players are only playing either criminals or cops. There are many other roles you might play, so why limit yourself to these two.

[TiMoN]

This topic was created before, got locked, I don't see a point in repeating the process. You can't change people.

[kevinarens]

The question your should really ask yourself is why players are only playing either criminals or cops. There are many other roles you might play, so why limit yourself to these two.

Because i've noticed EMS and FD are always ready to RolePlay, when an officer is shot or we ask for EMS assistance they will always be there asap. They use Roleplay because they can't shoot suspects or they cant escape from cops. Their objective is to heal people.
Same for farmers etc, they are doing the job to RolePlay.
For some people the Officer job is just to kill suspects, and use 0% of Roleplay. And for some criminals their objective is to escape/kill cops with 0% RolePlay. And in my opinion those two roles are the main "problems" in argonath. Because EMS and Police can RP togheter, but Cops and Criminals can't.

[Padres]

This topic was created before, got locked, I don't see a point in repeating the process. You can't change people.

Why take it up that simple? Everyone knows that Argonath has lost its potential in stuff like roleplay and everyone, except those who don't care, would want that to change. If you are one of those who don't care about roleplay, then just don't reply here. Besides that the other topic had a difference to this one.

[Mikal]

The server would be so so much better without guns, if there were only melee weapons there would be so much more RP, maybe no guns is something that should be introduced in RS5, Argonaths management always seem to stress how they like the server to be different to everyone elses, but all I see is a sandbox with people running round shooting, if you remove the guns, you remove the problem of people shooting, and they will then instead be forced into melee fighting, you could say the players will then DM with their fists and such, but atleast then you'd have time to report them before they pull a combat from their arse and kill you straight up.

[Danny_Leo]

The server would be so so much better without guns, if there were only melee weapons there would be so much more RP, maybe no guns is something that should be introduced in RS5, Argonaths management always seem to stress how they like the server to be different to everyone elses, but all I see is a sandbox with people running round shooting, if you remove the guns, you remove the problem of people shooting, and they will then instead be forced into melee fighting, you could say the players will then DM with their fists and such, but atleast then you'd have time to report them before they pull a combat from their arse and kill you straight up.

Or just force RP and ban everyone who can't even talk english and those who are unwilling to RP. It'd devastating for number of active players but at least there wouldn't be guys approaching a RP typing stuff in some foreign language and DMing since they're plain stupid.

Just don't get me wrong guys I had brilliant RP's over last couple of years with random citizens, families and cops from officers to SRU and FBI.. but mostly because I approached the situation in a right manner and made it easy for them toplay along.

In times I haven't ran into players willing to RP, I just encircled myself and limited my RPing activity to certain people and crime syndicates whose abilities never let me down.

[Mikal]

Or just force RP and ban everyone who can't even talk english and those who are unwilling to RP. It'd devastating for number of active players but at least there wouldn't be guys approaching a RP typing stuff in some foreign language and DMing since they're plain stupid.

Just don't get me wrong guys I had brilliant RP's over last couple of years with random citizens, families and cops from officers to SRU and FBI.. but mostly because I approached the situation in a right manner and made it easy for them toplay along.

In times I haven't ran into players willing to RP, I just encircled myself and limited my RPing activity to certain people and crime syndicates whose abilities never let me down.

I agree, also ban everyone who can't talk English.

No, I'm kidding, Argonath is actually a good way for people to LEARN English and you completely ignored the point I was making, Argonath as it stands is just a freeroam sandbox with limited scripts and deathmatchers on every corner, deathmatchers who use guns which they get from their arseholes and instantly shoot at anything that moves, if you remove guns they no longer can pull anything from their arses and will instead have to engage in a long fist battle, giving the police time to arrive with their pepper spray and nightsticks to break it up, and maybe even to roleplay arrests since nobody will be shooting at them! Maybe even throw in the option for certain players to have some kind of 'weapon dealer' rights which can put guns through a roleplay black market and can only be roleplay sold to people who arnt an average DMer, I think that sounds like a solution, maybe then there'd actually be some kind if RP.

[Danny_Leo]

I agree, also ban everyone who can't talk English.

No, I'm kidding, Argonath is actually a good way for people to LEARN English and you completely ignored the point I was making, Argonath as it stands is just a freeroam sandbox with limited scripts and deathmatchers on every corner, deathmatchers who use guns which they get from their arseholes and instantly shoot at anything that moves, if you remove guns they no longer can pull anything from their arses and will instead have to engage in a long fist battle, giving the police time to arrive with their pepper spray and nightsticks to break it up, and maybe even to roleplay arrests since nobody will be shooting at them! Maybe even throw in the option for certain players to have some kind of 'weapon dealer' rights which can put guns through a roleplay black market and can only be roleplay sold to people who arnt an average DMer, I think that sounds like a solution, maybe then there'd actually be some kind if RP.

It would do some good but who the hell wants to play GTA without firearms? We'd start RPing gang shootoutsouts or  threat victims with imaginary gun hoping they would play along with ridiculous amount of RP.

Limiting guns and making them less available would just make people moan and cry how they miss RS4 and freecopping with M4, combat and 2k armours.

I can put up with bad players, since I'm not forced to interact with them.

[Paolo_A]

Howdy Argonathians,

In the last few weeks i am wondering about something..

Conclusion
Everyone in Argonath is capable of Roleplaying, situation 3 shows it is possible..
So here is my question:
Why can't criminals and officers Roleplay with each other?
Is it because they are a threat for each other, or do cops and criminals simply enjoy shooting against each other?
Well i prefer to Roleplay with other criminals, to make argonath even better!
I know i can't force you to roleplay, but always Dming is kind of boring after a while.
Or isn't it?
We as Argonath veterans have to TEACH new Argonathians, in RP and loyalty.
So please, i know we can both roleplay more..
I know it is nice to have an epic shootout, but RPing is nice too.
And i love to Roleplay with criminals as a cop, but it doesn't happen that much..
Just learn to not directly shoot a cop/criminal if you see him/her, try to talk with each other and solve it in a good way.

I am not PRO Cops, or PRO Criminals.
We are both doing it wrong, i just want to share my opinion with you guys.

There are different factors that determine the behavior of players.
_________

First of all, the typical 'cops and criminal' scenario is very restricted. The ultimate goal of a cop is to jail the suspect, which nowadays seems to be equal to killing the suspect. Nevermind.

The ultimate goal of a criminal is to evade the cops, or get out of his situation, let it be kidnaps, drug deals, hell maybe even protesting and rampaging and other stereotype stuff, whatever comes to your mind, doesn't matter.

What are the possible solutions for roleplay here? Each side wants to reach his ultimate goal, like getting his own demands for a hostage across and that. We all know that isn't an option, because while you're jumping around, happy to hear the cops approved your 10k, SWAT is waiting outside, preparing to blast your head off. Nevermind.

Besides the most obvious roleplay possibility, surrendering and giving the cop a hard time with the investigation / jailing process or whatever, there's nothing much coming to my mind when cops and robbers face each other while still aiming for their 'ultimate' goal. This also includes not to die.

_______________________

BUT;

The way to avoid this is to change your mentality, your expectations when starting roleplays.
Be creative, construct roleplay situations where you force the cops (or the suspects) to interact with you (the snakecam is a nice idea imo, never heard of it before tho). Also don't mind if you die, it happens.

With that being said, don't expect to ultimately reach your goal, the jailing/killing or the demands for your hostage. Instead, think of witty solutions to make your scenario more interesting for both parties.
The reason why cops and crims are mainly shooting each other is simple; It's easier for each side to put it to a quick end and it makes sure you don't die.

Whenever I roleplay, I try not to pull guns out. Never. Personally, I think it's pretty pathetic for a veteran to have his guns as the number 1 problem solver, even if you're a gangster or whatever. Just don't let your ego take over if you fail or 'win' a roleplay. Keep your guns in your pockets.

Be witty and original, always. Make people actually think about their next roleplay steps, don't let em get away easily. Lead and challenge them in the way you approach them. It won't always work, you might not be able to instantly jail suspects because you roleplayed a detailed pullover or arresting and they drive off while you were typing, and you might get shot by an Officer while standing unarmed at a heroin spot trying to verbally defend yourself, but this is the way it is.

Some people will never learn, some people will never belong to the Argonath RPG scene, but that's the way it is.
Try to set an example instead, repeat the way you roleplay, even if people are unable to respond to it immediately. You might not get it, but people will learn from your ways of dealing with situations. It's up to you to change it.

However, I also have to say that not roleplaying here is not sanctioned enough, especially cops have too much freedom and are hard to report for their abuse, so there will always be even veteran cops (who could be expected to roleplay properly instead of behaving like 1dayfreecops?) who troll you etc. Like I said, it's easier to reach your goal by simply shooting a suspect and it's even harder for a suspect to prove it was arpd rulebreaking etc.,  and so on.

To come to a conclusion, the best way to avoid your explained scenario is to set a good example yourself. Stay away from no-gooders, especially certain groups and entities, those unwilling to learn and improve, those who're only here to shoot and act tough. Give people reason to change their minds when it comes to intense roleplay, show them it's worth spending time on longer situations.

It's all up to you. Just remember, some people are unable and unwilling to improve, and this is the point where Argonath players could need a stricter treatment, but that's not a point I want to discuss as it will possibly lead to people construeing it as crying and bad girling.


And yea, I'd pretty much second the statement to ignore everyone unable to speak or type even one english sentence. That's by the way another good chance to avoid shitty roleplays - stay away from people who can't express themself.

[Marcel]

No, I'm kidding, Argonath is actually a good way for people to LEARN English

100% true. For me, that's the greatest value Argonath provides. I've seen so many people improve their english dramatically since they joined Argonath. Also made a few real life friends, which is also great.

As for the roleplaying, lead by example!

[Danny_Leo]

Paolo explained it all to the details, no need to discuss much further.

[Leon.]

Amazed at the lack of the typical "don't like it, gtfo" and "stop moaning" responses. It fills me with so much joy that I might just go on an amphetamine-fueled kleptomaniac stealing spree, assemble something out of the items I stole, and spank my ass purple with it.


Anyway, on the subject of the topic...
I'll make the answer to the complex issue simple: the reason is the constant distrust between criminals/frequent suspects and the cops. Each side believes the other "never RPs" and are "nothing but DMers," and as a result, throws away roleplaying with the other side as a possibility and immediately starts doing everything except RPing. This has been a frequent observation for years.

Here are two pieces of advice that may help in anyone's quest for RP:
1. "Lead on" the RP - i.e., show your intentions that you want to RP, take initiative be the first one to RP in a situation, and be somewhat consistent in your personal style of RP. Ideally you don't want to make the RP situation turn full retard, but sometimes full retard RPs are hilarious and highly fulfilling to both sides, whereas the "Srsbsns" guys are left disappointed and often remark "argonet nevr rp,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,/////////"
2. DIRECTLY tell them/ask them for RP. Yeah, seriously. PM them "Bro, can we RP?" or some shit. "I'd like to resolve this through roleplay instead of bangbang, are you kay wif dat?" But don't be let down when people "cba to RP," it's a plus on you for trying.

Gandalf's statement applies as well, and I hope that multiple roles will be balanced, changed, opportunistic, and encouraged with the release of RS5. I can only wait and see :P