What was Yugoslavia?

[Antonio.]

I was talking about the Albanians on Kosovo proclaiming it independant and "taking" the land when the Serbs were in a position where they couldn't react. That's what I found cowardly. Kosovo has been part of Serbia for many many years and has been recognized as part of Serbia since it was conquered. The fact that moneyhungry countries signed some papers doesn't mean Kosovo is not still Serbian.

And again, how am I cowardly thinking when my statement was directed to America's interest in Yugoslavia and not just Kosovo? Exactly, "conquered" is the right word because it doesn't belong to you. Our people were there before the Slav invasions in the Balkan and then, like you said, you conquered it.

The fact that only Albanians who were earlier expelled returned is purely your opinion.
But let's say that that is true (which it isn't because entrance to Kosovo was free for Albanians and no papers were needed), they would still be invited guests.

Not really my opinion, it's a pure fact that even Serbs know about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonisation_of_Kosovo
http://pescanik.net/2013/04/the-colonization-of-kosovo/ <---- Serbian source

If you try to be funny next time, do it correctly and atleast act as if you were smart.

I was actually serious. You're actually the one here giving opinions and trying to avoid facts. Like I said, don't try to think you know everything because you saw one documentary which fell into your favour.

And why did Yugoslavia fall? Because many Yugoslavian states proclaimed independence.
Why did they proclaim independence? Because the USA pressured them to do so.

Yugoslavia fell because there was nobody, other than Tito, to keep it together. The fact that Yugoslavia wouldn't survive without a good leader was something that people already knew about during Yugoslavia.

If Yugoslavia was strong like it was in the beginning, nobody would've been able to pressure any of the republics to proclaim independence.

[Ratko Gavrilovic]

And again, how am I cowardly thinking when my statement was directed to America's interest in Yugoslavia and not just Kosovo? Exactly, "conquered" is the right word because it doesn't belong to you. Our people were there before the Slav invasions in the Balkan and then, like you said, you conquered it.
Not really my opinion, it's a pure fact that even Serbs know about.

Kosovo exchanged ownership many times in history. For example like a big part of the balkan, it has dealt with Ottoman occupation for a long time. Serbia however indeed conquered Kosovo which was recognized by the rest of the world. It was conquered with battles, not by paperwork like it got now, while Serbia was not able to react. This is the cowardly situation I am talking about.
And here I am solely talking about Kosovo.

Not really my opinion, it's a pure fact that even Serbs know about.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colonisation_of_Kosovo
http://pescanik.net/2013/04/the-colonization-of-kosovo/ <---- Serbian source

You gave me 2 articles but didn't take into consideration something that I wrote.
Entrance to Kosovo for Albanians was without boundaries. Any Albanian could move from Albania to Kosovo because of the good living conditions there. It is obvious that not only expelled Albanians returned.

I was actually serious. You're actually the one here giving opinions and trying to avoid facts. Like I said, don't try to think you know everything because you saw one documentary which fell into your favour.

And again, you are not achieving anything by making a claim that I watched only 1 documentary and "know it all", nor have I ever said that I know everything. Please don't put words in my mouth.
What I tried saying is that you simply made a language error while trying to be funny, which I found humoristic.
You said that you are not an expert on the things I know because the things I know are "not many".
If however you know that I don't know many things, it would actually make you an expert on the things I know.

Yugoslavia fell because there was nobody, other than Tito, to keep it together. The fact that Yugoslavia wouldn't survive without a good leader was something that people already knew about during Yugoslavia.

If Yugoslavia was strong like it was in the beginning, nobody would've been able to pressure any of the republics to proclaim independence.

I didn't deny that, nor will I deny it. I never claimed that Yugoslavia is indestructable and that it was perfect.
I simply said that it has dealt with foreign pressure which eventually lead to its downfall.

[Antonio.]

Kosovo exchanged ownership many times in history. For example like a big part of the balkan, it has dealt with Ottoman occupation for a long time. Serbia however indeed conquered Kosovo which was recognized by the rest of the world. It was conquered with battles, not by paperwork like it got now, while Serbia was not able to react. This is the cowardly situation I am talking about.
And here I am solely talking about Kosovo.

Right, and since the part where Serbia conquered is only important to you, let me remind you that doesn't matter in the end because Kosovo is no longer Serbia and Serbia has no control inside Kosovo's borders; if you want something to be done even on the North, you need negotiations to make it happen.

You lost one battle in Kosovo during the Ottoman Empire and now claim full rights over Kosovo. Well my people also died for Kosovo in 1999. Do you now realize the way of your thinking?

You gave me 2 articles but didn't take into consideration something that I wrote.
Entrance to Kosovo for Albanians was without boundaries. Any Albanian could move from Albania to Kosovo because of the good living conditions there. It is obvious that not only expelled Albanians returned.

I did. You said it was my opinion and not a fact, in which I clearly proved to you that it indeed is a fact.

Were Albanians let into Kosovo? Yes. Tito let that happen because Enver Hoxha, Albanian president, was still pretty hostile against Serbia for what the Serbs did to Albanians during 1918-1941. In order to placate Enver Hoxha, Tito let over 200,000 Albanians get into Kosovo, half or even lass than half the amount that were already driven out during 1918-1941. Also, we don't know if anyone of those Albanians were returning or not.

You obviously like to avoid the fact that a big portion of the Albanian population was removed from Kosovo and replaced by Serbs, but you seem to have a problem that Albanians were let inside Kosovo. One word: Biased.

And again, you are not achieving anything by making a claim that I watched only 1 documentary and "know it all", nor have I ever said that I know everything. Please don't put words in my mouth.
What I tried saying is that you simply made a language error while trying to be funny, which I found humoristic.
You said that you are not an expert on the things I know because the things I know are "not many".
If however you know that I don't know many things, it would actually make you an expert on the things I know.
I didn't deny that, nor will I deny it. I never claimed that Yugoslavia is indestructable and that it was perfect.
I simply said that it has dealt with foreign pressure which eventually lead to its downfall.

Kinda irrelevant to the topic and getting pretty pointless so I wont bother on this part anymore.

[Ratko Gavrilovic]

Right, and since the part where Serbia conquered is only important to you, let me remind you that doesn't matter in the end because Kosovo is no longer Serbia and Serbia has no control inside Kosovo's borders; if you want something to be done even on the North, you need negotiations to make it happen.

It is true that Serbia has little to no control in Kosovo at the moment, and it is impossible to make negotiations.
There were several Serb mayors elected in Northern Kosovo. One was shot dead by an Albanian, and the other refused to sign the oath as there was a Kosovo flag and Kosovo title hidden / taped under the contract. If he did sign it, he as a Serb would accept that Kosovo is an independent state, which he luckily did not.
These oaths are not likely to change though, which only brings more frustration on the Serb side.
One thing is for sure, when America is done with Kosovo and lets it be in the future, it is pretty much impossible for the Serbs to not shift their focus back on Kosovo. Many will avenge the deaths of Serbs and the destructions of monasteries and churches.

You lost one battle in Kosovo during the Ottoman Empire and now claim full rights over Kosovo. Well my people also died for Kosovo in 1999. Do you now realize the way of your thinking?

The Albanian KLA terrorists themselves caused the war. Action reaction.
It is fair to say that the Albanian terrorists caused the deaths of Albanian citizens in Kosovo.

I did. You said it was my opinion and not a fact, in which I clearly proved to you that it indeed is a fact.

How is it a fact when we don't know if only expelled Albanians returned to Kosovo?
Entrance was also free to regular / non expelled Albanians.

you seem to have a problem that Albanians were let inside Kosovo. One word: Biased.

You just noticed?

Kinda irrelevant to the topic and getting pretty pointless so I want bother on this part anymore.

Thanks for understanding.

[Antonio.]

It is true that Serbia has little to no control in Kosovo at the moment, and it is impossible to make negotiations.
There were several Serb mayors elected in Northern Kosovo. One was shot dead by an Albanian, and the other refused to sign the oath as there was a Kosovo flag and Kosovo title hidden / taped under the contract. If he did sign it, he as a Serb would accept that Kosovo is an independent state, which he luckily did not.
These oaths are not likely to change though, which only brings more frustration on the Serb side.
One thing is for sure, when America is done with Kosovo and lets it be in the future, it is pretty much impossible for the Serbs to not shift their focus back on Kosovo. Many will avenge the deaths of Serbs and the destructions of monasteries and churches.

If you're talking about Dimitrije Janicijevic, then you can't say it was an Albanian because there aren't even any possible suspects.

What do you expect? You got the right to form your political party in a region where your people live, but you don't want to recognize Kosovo as a country. You are constantly denying Kosovo as an independent country, yet your politicians constantly have dialogues with our politicians. You request Kosovo Serbs on the north to have certain benefits, yet Kosovo is still somehow not independent.

Albanians in Preshevo and Bujanovac also have their political parties, but they're not pretending and refusing to accept the fact that they are in Serbia and not a part of Kosovo.

Cool. But the chances of war happening like in the 90's is pretty low.

The Albanian KLA terrorists themselves caused the war. Action reaction.
It is fair to say that the Albanian terrorists caused the deaths of Albanian citizens in Kosovo.

Action reaction indeed. KLA LIBERTY FIGHTERS didn't start a war for the hell of it. Your president Slobodan Milosevic was the one trying to wipe out Albanian existence in Kosovo.
I can't believe you have the nerves to say that. Do you really want me to list out the massacres you caused on civilians during the Kosovo War? Or are you trying to imply that the fact that a war started you can kill all civilians in sight?

How is it a fact when we don't know if only expelled Albanians returned to Kosovo?
Entrance was also free to regular / non expelled Albanians.

It's a fact that you expelled more than were allowed. But you are trying to avoid the fact and keep implying how bad it was that Tito let Albanians into Kosovo, only because it rules in your favour. That my friend is not a way to debate.

You just noticed?

That you're biased? No, I noticed from your first post.

[yoske]

This topic is ready to be locked. As I said, all you will get is biased answers. For Albanians - Serbs are fault, for Serbs - Albanians are fault.
Biggest point here is - Kosovo is Bondsteel with sad people around it. Serbs are living in they imagination land where Kosovo is still Serbia, and Albanains are living in their imagination land where Kosovo is free and independent. Yea ofc, they can't move a toe without asking USA first. Most of factories and mines are in hands of EU and USA if I am correct.
Funniest part will be - you can find a bank and fast car in Kosovo on every corner but unemployment there is at highest rate then anywhere in Europe. Human and drugs (and organs) trafficking are best business there... Nice "country" you got there...

[Ratko Gavrilovic]

If you're talking about Dimitrije Janicijevic, then you can't say it was an Albanian because there aren't even any possible suspects.

I think it's more logical for an Albanian who is pro-independent Kosovo to kill a Serbian politician who would have influence in northern Kosovo than for a Serb or any other person to do it.

What do you expect? You got the right to form your political party in a region where your people live, but you don't want to recognize Kosovo as a country. You are constantly denying Kosovo as an independent country, yet your politicians constantly have dialogues with our politicians. You request Kosovo Serbs on the north to have certain benefits, yet Kosovo is still somehow not independent.

Kosovo is not independent for 2 reasons. The first reason being that Albanian politicians on Kosovo have no influence over Kosovo at all without the USA, and the second reason being is that for pretty much every Serb Kosovo is holy land. They will never recognize Kosovo, it's simple as that. The only reason our politicians are talking with Albanian politicians is purely to join the EU. If there isn't peace between the Serbs and the Albanians, it's going to be hard for Serbia to enter the EU.

Albanians in Preshevo and Bujanovac also have their political parties, but they're not pretending and refusing to accept the fact that they are in Serbia and not a part of Kosovo.

Because Serbia was never Albanian.

Action reaction indeed. KLA LIBERTY FIGHTERS didn't start a war for the hell of it. Your president Slobodan Milosevic was the one trying to wipe out Albanian existence in Kosovo.
I can't believe you have the nerves to say that. Do you really want me to list out the massacres you caused on civilians during the Kosovo War? Or are you trying to imply that the fact that a war started you can kill all civilians in sight?

Liberty fighters my ass. It's sad to see that you can't accept that the KLA is a terrorist group which is recognized internationally. It's one of the biggest criminal groups of the Balkan. Mass murders, organ trade (with cases of organs being obtained from a body of an alive person), narcotics trade, arms trade etc. Even funnier is that Hashim Thaci was a / the leader and has recently been nominated for the nobel peace price

As for Serb crimes against Albanians, you can't say that the Albanians are innocent and have been hurt by the Serbs.
If you are, that's pathetic. The Albanians were the ones to start conflicts by launching attacks on law enforcements. Many Serbs have been killed, organs removed and until the day of today Albanian kids are taught to hate Serbs and discriminate them in any way possible.

It's a fact that you expelled more than were allowed. But you are trying to avoid the fact and keep implying how bad it was that Tito let Albanians into Kosovo, only because it rules in your favour. That my friend is not a way to debate.

I never said that Tito did wrong by allowing Albanians into Kosovo. Nobody could predict what would happen.
History has taught us however that it was a bad move. Albanians on Kosovo proclaimed Kosovo an independent state and Serbs are now being massively discriminated there.

[superh2o]

You watched one documentary and read a couple of articles on wikipedia and feel that you are the genius of Balkan history, however only common sense is needed to figure out that America wouldn't have been able to do anything to Yugoslavian states if they didn't allow it. Yugoslavia didn't need any benefits from United States until there wasn't anyone to keep everyone together. While we were pointing weapons at each other (which is what they were waiting for), United States already had Yugoslavia in their hands.

Sorry to drop in like this but lets be realistic there are people who control all the from the shadows, they pick who makes the governments and in case  there picks don't win they do things like in Serbia,Libya now Ukraine America and EU are making a financial boost to Ukraine but under condition that the Opposition wins the elections i call that a pay out for there part, you cant say "America wouldn't have been able to do anything to Yugoslavian states if they didn't allow it" there are bad apples everywhere who will sell there nation,family,friends for money.
P.S there are so much deals that the public don't even imagine happening that were made, some Power hungry people reduced peoples lives to a statistic number, or even worse into a tool taht will bring them some goal so many civilians were killed by who knows who to frame the other side and that happens in all wars, just balkan as a cradle of nations with so much different nations and races escalated so much and so fast.
I can say that i'm just a student but i did a lot of research on this subject for some personal reasons and after few years made a conclusion, that  this war was so much grim that i stopped looking any further into this subject, and i doubt i will ever start again i found answers to who and how killed a big part of my family after that i'm disgusted every time i see a "Liberation war or mass protests for a Better future"

[Antonio.]

^ Pretty much said it all but hate won't stop, unfortunately.

That being said, I withdraw myself from this argument because it won't bring anything in the end, one argument will come to another argument and there's basically no ending.

Enjoy.

[Alexander_Rijav]

Then,what is Macedonia? 

[nikos]

Macedonia is Sierra Leone.

[Jubin]

To original poster: Want to understand the problem talk to people from all of the different countries of former Yugoslavia and then form your own opinion of the matter. Weight of Chains is a good start from the point of view of Serbians. After watching that I'd suggest you talk to some Croatians.

[Cofiliano]

To original poster: Want to understand the problem talk to people from all of the different countries of former Yugoslavia and then form your own opinion of the matter. Weight of Chains is a good start from the point of view of Serbians. After watching that I'd suggest you talk to some Croatians.

Just because a Serb shared you the movie Weight of Chains doesnt mean its from Serbian view. Every Yugoslav from all corners of ex-Yugoslavia who's real and non-biased will tell you that at least 98 percent of everything said in the movie is the truth about Yugoslavia. Cause those are facts.

I agree with the rest of your reply.


Ps- Dont have time now, I'll write on this subject soon.

[Jaka_Lah]

Well in our school they taught us one sidedly, very fucking one sidedly.
Our teachers story;
Slovenia was in Yugoslavia > they had high education levels and grounds that were full of farmers so they gave away all the farming goods that they have made to the other people in Balkan; at this point I just thought that my teacher was a brainwashed prick who doesn't have anything better to do than annoy other balkan states, but I digress;> Slovenia wanted to free itself > Serbia didn't want Slovenia to free itself > War

And that is when I felt brainwashed as a American figuring out about NSA.. So our teacher might not be the brightest, Thus Slovenians are half assed still, some of them think they're Balkanian, some think they have achieved some sort of fucking enlightenment since we were under Austro-Ogerska. So in our part of Yugoslavia some think we are Balkanian, some think we belong under the higher classed representatives as in we are close to Italy, but as we are a small country all that happens is transportation through our roads to every other state. We had a war to free ourselves for a reason because (now again I'm talking out of my teachers mouth here because he brainwashed me) Serbs stole from us, strangely enough the teacher did not mention anyone else than Serbia, but fuck it.

And don't get me started on Kosovo, I haven't read the entirety of this topic, because I don't even want to know if anyone has started talking about Kosovo, poking at that subject is like poking at a nuke with a long stick of dynamite, you might run away but holy fuck will there be a fight behind you.

[Antonio.]

Unless you study something for a while and pick up information on your own free time and at your own will, you will never get accurate information, because there is no country that doesn't give you brainwashed information on a certain topic.