Malaysia airliner crashes in east Ukraine near Russia border

[Jubin]

You know this for sure? You were there, you got informations, papers, documents of it?

This goes for alot of people on this topic, you are mixing things here. The pro-russian rebels(among who there is a LARGE number of Ukrainians) are people who are fighting for freedom, they don't want to live in a NATO country, would any of you Americans/British/Netherland/Sweden/etc people accept the fact, that Russia made a illegal strike with few thousands people in your country and are forcing them to become a USSR country? Of course not the whole western world would moan for you and your country, well the pro-russian rebels are doing exactly that, and if you don't accept their legitimize fight for it, you're being a total utter biased and retarded hypocrit.


Cause that's what NATO/USA are doing right now in Ukraine. You people speak about 'bad boys Russians' how they wanna dominate and conquer their surrounding countries, while the fact is that NATO/USA is doing that to the Ukraine right now. And this people don't want to live in a such country.

Let me remind you one more time, that the central Government in Ukraine wasn't elected, it wasn't choosed by Ukrainine people, it was forced by an angry mob at Maidan who was made by western itelligence agency, mob of 5-6k people not few millions like it usually happens in revolutions, in a country of 40millions people!? So 5k people elected the new Government in Ukraine! That's whats happening here.

Also, its not any country we are talking about, its  Ukraine, the birthplace of Russia! Its like Virgina to USA.

First, do you have any proofs of actual US intelligence behind Maidan. Also Maidan is already done and Ukraine has a legitimate government chosen by the Ukrainian people.
Also if you think those people in east Ukraine has a right for their freedom from the rest of the Ukraine, you also have to accept that people in Kosovo has the right to freedom from Serbia.

[[WS]Jacob]

You know this for sure? You were there, you got informations, papers, documents of it?

No but I can use my common sense to work it out from the information I've been given. Countries have been trying to access the site to investigate and have had trouble from the Ukrainian rebel forces there, most of who show little respect for the scene. The Buk-M1 surface-to-air missile system which is the one authorities believe shot down the plane, was developed by the Soviet Union and what I can take from that is that the rebels were given it to shoot down Ukrainian military aircraft by the RF.

[yoske]

First, do you have any proofs of actual US intelligence behind Maidan. Also Maidan is already done and Ukraine has a legitimate government chosen by the Ukrainian people.
Also if you think those people in east Ukraine has a right for their freedom from the rest of the Ukraine, you also have to accept that people in Kosovo has the right to freedom from Serbia.

But it started with Kosovo and now it's not legitimate if another region wants to split? How so? EU is so hypocritical and has double standards but still manage to s*it around what is right and what is not.

As you brought Kosovo, same goes for Kurdistan, Catalonia, Basque, Texas, Venetia etc.

About US intelligence behind Maidan, didn't Angela Merkel herself told behind sniper shootouts were people working for pro-EU government? I doubt Ukrainians would shoot Ukrainians, I would go for foreign mercenaries shooting Ukrainian civilians? Why was Joseph Biden present on Maidan?

[zipp3r]

[Cofiliano]

First, do you have any proofs of actual US intelligence behind Maidan. Also Maidan is already done and Ukraine has a legitimate government chosen by the Ukrainian people.

1.Yes, all the groups who organised Madian are/were sponzord by mostly USA non-government organizations, mostly lead by George Soros.
2. Ukraine still doesn't have a legitimate government chosed by Ukrainian people. They formed a Government from the old Parlament, the one who supported the old Government, it has no legimity.

Also if you think those people in east Ukraine has a right for their freedom from the rest of the Ukraine, you also have to accept that people in Kosovo has the right to freedom from Serbia.

And Serbians in Croatia and Bosnia has the right to freedom as well. Right? Saw how double standards work there.
There's a thing call territorial integrity and sovergny, and in the same time there's a thing called Right to self-determination.
Both of them are valid by international law although they exclude each others. Its a matter of critera, conditions and such.

Also for future debate, lets avoid giving any comparison with other situations isn't the same, although they got similar ethnic any other factors.

Jubin you're a smart and well educated fella, but you got that classic well known baltic complex issues of Russians, which drags you into being one sided at all time, and blurs your intelligent and educated personality.
I'm not asking you, nor expect from you to be Russian sided in this, nor in any other, all Im asking you to do is use your intelligence and your own mind when making conclusions, not what the mass media or biased education or biased general opinion tells you to:
Like I've said on some other topic "follow the interest", just ask yourself the question, who has the biggest interested in this that happen, Putin and Russia who are trying to put pressure down and make a better picture with Olympics, BRICS, future WC, not sending Russian Army in Ukraine even while Russian people are dying( Ask yourself what would Americans do ? But honestly answer yourself. I mean look what Israel did for few of their citizens, 400 Palestinians died till now), or the Americans who are losing fast in global geo-policy, they're losing their partners in economy, EU is step by step turning away from USA(And Im talking about Italy, Germany, France mostly)?

It may look like I'm all about Russia, but to be honest I'm not big of a fan myself, I respect and like Putin as one o the greatest leaders in the last 50 years, just like Castro or Gadaffi. Leaders of the free world, and I'm against the neo liberalistic imperialism who ever is doing it, and the ones who starts war when ever they want to expand their interests in the last 50 years was the USA.

Not the people of USA, not even the government of USA, yet the people ruining the USA.
If this was done by Russia, I would take a huge piss on them, or any other country who's doing that.

[Jubin]

1.Yes, all the groups who organised Madian are/were sponzord by mostly USA non-government organizations, mostly lead by George Soros.
2. Ukraine still doesn't have a legitimate government chosed by Ukrainian people. They formed a Government from the old Parlament, the one who supported the old Government, it has no legimity.

1. Sources? 2.So they formed the government from the old Pro-Russian government? That doesn't seem correct.

And Serbians in Croatia and Bosnia has the right to freedom as well. Right? Saw how double standards work there.
There's a thing call territorial integrity and sovergny, and in the same time there's a thing called Right to self-determination.
Both of them are valid by international law although they exclude each others. Its a matter of critera, conditions and such.

Also for future debate, lets avoid giving any comparison with other situations isn't the same, although they got similar ethnic any other factors.

Exactly my point. Territorial integrity is violated and it is not Ukraine who has gained land in this situation.

Cofi I have as much Baltic complex with Russians as you do Serbian complex with Americans.

[Cofiliano]

1. Sources? 2.So they formed the government from the old Pro-Russian government? That doesn't seem correct.

Lol ofc it seems correct, it happen in most east european countries that went trough transition. Old communist bastards became democratic liberals during night, nationalist beome cosmopolitan, they are politicians bro, they switch sides and ideology when ever it suits them better.
Every person from Balkan, or East Europe will confirm this.

Exactly my point. Territorial integrity is violated and it is not Ukraine who has gained land in this situation.

But you need to know the entire history of Ukraine, the way it was formed during Communism, the conditions under which it was allowed to be a separated country etc. Territorial integrity was violated, but after a overthrow done by 3-5k people, among who the most radical part is the ultra-nazi movement, who are well know and famous for their actions.  The minority people who are watching all of that happening, and  feeling afraid from the obviously pro-NATO but in the same time pro-nazi government took things into their hands to protect their people from going through the same Nazi shit they went 60 years ago. Specially after the things that was done by those nazi movements in Odessa.

Cofi I have as much Baltic complex with Russians as you do Serbian complex with Americans.

I don't have a complex issue with Americans, I dont have them, I got lots of friends, I like most of its culture, I wear NIKE and watch HBO. Can you say the same about you and Russian culture, friends, products etc?
I'll always speak loud about this aggressive corporative imperialism that's been going on by the USA last 60 years, cause of which so many wars, deaths, crises and what not happen in the world,  Russia with all their problems and flaws aren't the one doing that, right now they are defending their backyard, lands inhabit by Russians lands where Russia was formed, and are actually trough Ukraine under attack. Do I have sympathy for them and Ukrainian people? Yes I do, just like I have sympathy for Lyibian, Iranian, Iraqis, Korean, Yugoslav, Cuban, etc.
Did you answer on my questions about "follow the interest" to yourself? You don't need to share the answers here, I'm just interested did you answer yourself in a objective as possible, honest kind of way.

[Ramis]

Forces of           regained control of ~ 1/4 of city of Luhansk.

~1,5 kilometers to city hall / city centre left. Anyway , even if Ukraine took Luhansk , the "republic of Luhansk" will still survive ,because government fled the city already and will change their HQ to somewhere else. Only militants left in Luhansk.

Fully regained control of city of Rubizhne and Vojevodivka

Sources.
@ http://liveuamap.com
@ https://twitter.com/liveuamap

[Jubin]

Lol ofc it seems correct, it happen in most east european countries that went trough transition. Old communist bastards became democratic liberals during night, nationalist beome cosmopolitan, they are politicians bro, they switch sides and ideology when ever it suits them better.
Every person from Balkan, or East Europe will confirm this.

You're right, but you are talking about events that happened 20+ years ago not last government.

But you need to know the entire history of Ukraine, the way it was formed during Communism, the conditions under which it was allowed to be a separated country etc. Territorial integrity was violated, but after a overthrow done by 3-5k people, among who the most radical part is the ultra-nazi movement, who are well know and famous for their actions.  The minority people who are watching all of that happening, and  feeling afraid from the obviously pro-NATO but in the same time pro-nazi government took things into their hands to protect their people from going through the same Nazi shit they went 60 years ago. Specially after the things that was done by those nazi movements in Odessa.

Why would minority people be afraid of NATO? In which NATO countries are minorities being discriminated. Which makes you say that the current government is pro-nazi? Because first law they went trough with was, that the only official language in Ukraine is Ukrainian?

I don't have a complex issue with Americans, I dont have them, I got lots of friends, I like most of its culture, I wear NIKE and watch HBO. Can you say the same about you and Russian culture, friends, products etc?

Yup. I am no Rytuklis for god sakes.

I'll always speak loud about this aggressive corporative imperialism that's been going on by the USA last 60 years, cause of which so many wars, deaths, crises and what not happen in the world,  Russia with all their problems and flaws aren't the one doing that, right now they are defending their backyard, lands inhabit by Russians lands where Russia was formed, and are actually trough Ukraine under attack.

That "backyard" of Russia is worrying me.

PS: Now leaving this topic.

[Husky]

The investigation has barely started and everyone is pointing fingers already, proves surge after just a few hours after the crash, the US claims to have proves but as usual we don't see any of them. 


Very cute.

[Nexxt]

As everyone seems to blame each other for no freaking reason, I am gonna blame an alliance between Cems and Gulucan, I know they were not there, but yeah ... you can blame anyone nowadays.

[[WS]Jacob]

As everyone seems to blame each other for no freaking reason

What do you mean no reason? I have sufficient evidence to believe it was a Ukrainian separatist which fired the rocket that was provided by Russia.

[Nexxt]

Can we just wait for the official investigation, rather than saying you hold 'evidence' whom did this disgusting act. We have to wait for the official investigation to end, if the 'evidence' still not has been removed by the separatist.

I mean, being an FBI-member in SA:MP does not make you FBI in real life! Lol sorry <3.

[Ramis]

Anyway. About BUK Missiles.

We all know, thats only Russia could provide it ,because Ukraine didnt reported any stolen, (it cant be some old grandpa holding one in his garage for 20 years and waiting for separatists to come and they be like) :
- Hai grandpa can u borrow us this BUK for a day?


Well , jokes out.
If they didnt did shot it with BUK , why should they start moving it back to Russia? If for example they didnt shot it with BUK/didnt shot it at all , so why should they start making suspicion ,when moves them back to Russian border?

Hope this war will end as soon as possible.

[Huntsman]

Let me remind you one more time, that the central Government in Ukraine wasn't elected, it wasn't choosed by Ukrainine people, it was forced by an angry mob at Maidan who was made by western itelligence agency, mob of 5-6k people not few millions like it usually happens in revolutions, in a country of 40millions people!? So 5k people elected the new Government in Ukraine! That's whats happening here.

Same old bullshit, I see Putins propaganda campaign got to you too well. Not a surprise, to be honest, if I was fed shit via the television all over again I'd probably start believing it too. Happily I dont watch it that often. People gathered in Maidan because they didn't want to end up sold out to Russia by Belarus, where Lukashenko pretty much sold out his country. Belarus no longer speaks Belarussian. Like 90 percent of it speaks Russian now, the country'\s in terrible economical shape and under all economical statuses, it's considered third world. Ukraine didn't want to end up like that, and Yanukovich was leading the country exactly to that direction. Yes, under the revolt a temporary government took place, and that's how it happens everywhere under revolutions, same happened in Lithuania after both declarations of independance - temporary government took place until proper elections were organised. So stop spreading that bullshit, nobody's gonna fall for that. Every part of Ukraine that's Ukrainian, and not Russian populated, supports Kiev.

Can we just wait for the official investigation, rather than saying you hold 'evidence' whom did this disgusting act. We have to wait for the official investigation to end, if the 'evidence' still not has been removed by the separatist.

I mean, being an FBI-member in SA:MP does not make you FBI in real life! Lol sorry <3.

No point. The investigation will most likely be biased anyways. If it's ever even gonna end, since i heard the seperatists took the bodies to train wagons and stole valuable items on the crash site.

I don't have a complex issue with Americans, I dont have them, I got lots of friends, I like most of its culture, I wear NIKE and watch HBO. Can you say the same about you and Russian culture, friends, products etc?

Yup. I am no Rytuklis for god sakes.

What the f**k's that supposed to mean? Let me tell ya what - if you judge your feelings towards a certain country by the merchandise you have, well, let me surprise you - I have a Soviet DELTA moped in my garage and I'd prefer it over my scooter any time if it could be registered to drive in traffic, but sadly it can't, since I don't have the documents for it, my dream car is Russia VAZ 2101, I have three vintage Soviet mechanical alarm clocks, one of which I use today and I prefer it over any of these modern day craps, I buy Russian ice cream in shops because I find them the most tasty. You realise how idiotic your statement is? I have more Russian friends than American ones, I also was to Russia during a certain event and I loved the people there, we got along very well. I also can pretty fluently speak Russian.. And I learned it BY MYSELF, because I liked the language. So saying I'm biased against Russia is bullshit. Let me tell ya what - I like their policies on certain things, such as the homosexual issue. Fine - be whoever you want, but there's no need to advertise yourself. As one of our politicians said - what happens in your bed is your own problem, nobody cares, really. Exactly! But I'm pretty much facing the facts instead of being your typical "HOLY SHIT EU USA CONSPIRACY OMG OMG OMG OMG YOU EU BRAINWASHED MORON BLAH BLAH". For your information, I am against EU, and I always thought that it would be best for Lithuania to leave EU, NATO and ally with the Scandinavians instead, since these countries have brains to stick their noses to their own bussineses. However, I can't ignore the facts and the evidence I'm provided with. From the photo uploaded by the Donetsk Peoples Republic on Twitter, showing off their BUK systems and then deleting that post soon after the plane was shot down, to the fact that there's an actual radio chatter intercepted by the Ukrainian intelligence between two seperatists after investigating the crash site. The obvious thing is that Russians provided the rebels with BUK, and what I believe - to get rid of them. Basically they knew that the rebels wouldn't be smart enough to use the system properly, and they knew they would screw up, by which Russia would have an opportunity to seperate themselves from the rebels.
Oh, and I used to listen to Russian press, but I don't anymore, since it shits on everyone who opposes them, since it knows no other way.. This is ridicullous:

Now, speaking of Americans in this topic, please, shut up. You're really nobody to blame anyone here -