This is the problem.

[Volcom]

I've been reading so many theories about solutions and changes lately, yet I see none of you online and contributing so they can take place. While the forums are full of 'we should do this and that', in-game there are 30-35 players, and about 10-15 are roleplaying.

Things are simple, get your shit together and go do some roleplay in-game. This is what needs to be changed. It's easy to find out problems and then start talking about solutions, I can do it all day, but instead, I rather go in-game and have some actual fun.

 

[Manoni]

We have survived since 2009(Maybe even before but the topic was made in 2009) with this same vision basically the changes was in the players this days... people no longer want to roleplay because we don't have leaders who pushes people into interacting with others who are here to roleplay and not just for trucking and working.
We can't change alot in the vision just because we are facing a few changes thats atleast what I think, for now you already changed aloooot in the vision I am learning to accept the changes it still does bug me but I do agree with it.... but if you do too many changes then the server won't be Argonath anymore it will turn into a whole new server Argonath Vision and history is what makes it special and different than other RP servers

The vision is old, outdated, even in some cases is incorrect in relation to how the roleplay should be. We need these changes, we can't stay with some old ideals and expect to have everything like it used to be, because it simply not going to happen. People has changed, new people have come, we must give a try on new stuff for the sake of the community, sticking to live in the past could be the downfall of the future of Argonath and it has been seen well enough.

[Cofiliano]

You can read lots of interesting things in thic topic. Between the lines..

[Benn]

The vision aswell is what kept the server like this for so long... imagine if the vision was different or we didn't have a vision the server would have looked alot more different than now might be good different might be bad different but still different...
So we can all agree that the original server always kept the vision as important as the rules of the server and worked by it...
Now as I said I am not against changing the vision but I am against deleting it, removing it or vandalise it.
I believe adding a few changes is into the vision might do well to the server but you can't just delete it and still call this community Argonath since the vision was partially moral more than physical, it disscussed how all players had the right to be in ARPD so we could all be treated equally and it also discussed not forcing RP on people because it was considered morally wrong.
You have to look on the vision from different perspective from what Gandalf thought when he wrote it and why he wrote it this way...
I myself didn't know all that but I did keep up with Gandalfs posts and learnt his perspective and I must say holding a server for over 6 years successfully shows actions of a wise man.

[Que]

Let's talk a little bit about "the vision". What is a vision? A vision is obviously something you have when you start something up, where you want to be later on in your progress and it's something you use to stay in between the lines and not falling out. With that said, it was nearly ten years since Argonath once opened up and was created.

What does that vision to with anything these days except a previous goal of what Argonath once wanted to be? We are talking about "the vision" as something that can't be changed, that does not change by years and that is written in stone that we cannot touch. From my own experience, a vision changes by time and from what I've experienced with Argonath, that vision is still remaining the same old, grudgy, dark toned one that has prevent us from changing anything with the previous development team.

So what is our vision now, approximately ten years after the brand new release of this community?
Is it to develop further? Get on to the hosted list and get more players onto the server? Serve our member base with updates that is actually aimed towards a better future?
Where do we start? What is the actual plan that is TODAY'S VISION of tomorrow and forward? Do we even have one?

The player amount has gone from less to less, where the players has gone to other communities or quit playing. We never took care of the roleplay quality who has gone to LS:RP or other communities just because they felt Argonath never developed or did any changes to make types of progress when it comes to roleplay. Don't use "but this game is from the stone age", because if you open your eyes, there are still multiple roleplay servers that has a 500 of 500 players every damn day". I get what your saying about keeping the soul of Argonath. But in my world, I rather have a community that is more into developing and making progress even today, than being one that is so deeply into its past so they can't even see the future. It has even been tabu in the previous years to talk about LS:RP, like I do now. You'd even be censored if you did. Instead of taking what they've done by re-keeping their player base, growing widely and contributed radically to SA:MP in general, we have forbidden to talk about that. And yes, if remaining within an old gooey vision of what has been the past is what the future will look like, then I wish you the best of luck and I'm saying good bye for the last time.

Excuse my french but it was needed since it was from the deepest into my heart.

[Devin]

The vision aswell is what kept the server like this for so long... imagine if the vision was different or we didn't have a vision the server would have looked alot more different than now might be good different might be bad different but still different...
So we can all agree that the original server always kept the vision as important as the rules of the server and worked by it...
Now as I said I am not against changing the vision but I am against deleting it, removing it or vandalise it.
I believe adding a few changes is into the vision might do well to the server but you can't just delete it and still call this community Argonath since the vision was partially moral more than physical, it disscussed how all players had the right to be in ARPD so we could all be treated equally and it also discussed not forcing RP on people because it was considered morally wrong.
You have to look on the vision from different perspective from what Gandalf thought when he wrote it and why he wrote it this way...
I myself didn't know all that but I did keep up with Gandalfs posts and learnt his perspective and I must say holding a server for over 6 years successfully shows actions of a wise man.

It's easy to run a server when others do your job for you during unanswered months and months of negligence due to inactivity and real life commitments.
Enough said.

[Leroy]

Snip

So what kind of changes would you suggest Que, realistically? If you have any ideas in mind.

I feel like perhaps discussing concrete ideas would help rather than alluding to the idea of change - Even though it is still constructive.

I do partly agree though such as the need for discussing the vision. I have had contact with the main management about some relative stuff a while back. They do have the servers' best interest at heart but I believe the problem is change can alienate some players within the community even if it's made in a positive light.

You may have a perspective of your own however it might conflict with someone else's, and those who decide on this have to balance this fairly. I think the way forward is collectively organising to properly discuss concrete changes with pure justifications and leaving behind any bias and considering the kinds of rippling affects this may have on different players and the integrity of rules - All perspectives.

I feel this is more about the survival of the community for the years to come and growth of the world we've been able to play and enjoy for so many years. Therefore we need to forget our factions, affiliations and bias and come together as community who wish to see this continue whilst keeping true to some core principles that set our community apart, but wiggle room for change and a real incentive for effort.

This post in itself is not a solution, but perhaps a path towards finding it, I just believe if we can organise as much as possible to discuss X amount of things sequentially and in an organised way, then present it to the HQ without any disruptions/moaning (as some may do), we might be able to take steps forward. However these things still take time as everything cannot be ran as a pure democracy, decision makers are there to keep things in control, so a majority of opinions are beneficial, to aid them, or at least consider any kind of change.

The issue in my eyes is everyone has ideas but no one is focussing on them together enough to form a collective opinion as a community to keep things balanced.

When it boils down to it, as much as we forget; the owners are humans too and cannot have all these ideas in their mind (plus the implementation difficulties) - Imagine dozens if not almost hundreds of players moaning at you at different perspectives most of the time, so we need to work with them together as a cooperating community.

You do care and I respect that, we just need to get more people to care like so and provide tangible solutions. We can very easily become a part of the problem if we complain but cannot reach real conclusions.


My two cents.

[Teddy]

It's easy to run a server when others do your job for you during unanswered months and months of negligence due to inactivity and real life commitments.
Enough said.

and then when said person does show up they start fights with players on the forums rather than answer the person(s) actually doing their job. Interesting isn't it? Ignoring the people doing all the heavy lifting. Not surprising however from the person who finds no value in anyone, only a person to do the job and replace when they get tired.

Actually on topic, Que has some ideas that I think are in the right direction from what I've seen. and what I see in this topic is nothing but negativity and very few people actually caring to make progress. If you'd pull your heads out of your ass for a second and see how you are bitching at others for actually trying to make progress rather than actually make progress... perhaps we could actually reach compromises that move this community forward... together.

[Kalvin]

And actually talking about all these points, I'd love to include my part. I won't be showing the admin's name but well if this is how the thing will roll, it is surely bad for everyone.

Saturday, July 11

Situation: We were following a guy from a rivalry group for a little time. He was trucking and all. After sometime, he entered LV and there we told him to stop. He didn't and told us to fuck off. After the several warnings and in response to his actions, we simply took out his tires and there he reported us to an administrator who told us to 'roleplay something else plz' because 'robbery/kidnap shit is old'
I say, it was just another face of 'I am not in mood for roleplay pls go away'

Here, read the log and grace yourself with the administration who will tell us what to roleplay and who to mercy with 'pls no mood for roleplay, im trucking, go away'

Spoiler for Hiden:

[18:44:36] Roberto_Cardenas(0) shouts: Pendejo, stop your fuckin' ass right now!!

He didn't stop and kept driving, although we continously rammed and warned him to stop.

[18:44:52] ******_******(42) shouts: Fuck off!!
[18:44:58] Roberto_Cardenas(0) shouts: Last warning, puto!!
[18:45:06] Roberto_Cardenas(0) shouts: I am not sayin' again!!

I shooted and took out all his tyres and then this happened.

[18:45:24] Admin(32) says: Hi

[18:45:29] Admin(32) says: Why shooting him?

[18:45:29] Roberto_Cardenas(0) says: Hello.

[18:45:37] Roberto_Cardenas(0) says: Not complying after several warnings
+The 'fuck off' and flaming he did.

[18:45:38] Paco_Gonzalez(40) says: Hi

[18:45:46] Roberto_Cardenas(0) says: Burst out his tires
(We simply took out his tires, not the whole truck)

[18:45:46] Admin(32) says: not a reason to shoot

[18:45:57] Paco_Gonzalez(40) says: Just going for some friendly robbery

[18:46:23] Admin(32) says: RP something else plz
And here administration will tell us what to roleplay and what not to.

[18:46:28] Roberto_Cardenas(0) says: Why?

[18:46:30] Admin(32) says: Use imaginations

[18:46:39] Admin(32) says: Kidnap, Robbery is old shit

[18:46:42] Roberto_Cardenas(0) says: Roleplay and imaginations are different things, I suppose.

[18:46:46] ***[1800] Paco_Gonzalez(40): lets do something else

[18:46:47] ***[1800] Paco_Gonzalez(40): meh

[18:46:49] Roberto_Cardenas(0) says: What are new?

[18:47:08] Paco_Gonzalez(40) says: ok, we'll think of something else slavik. sorry

[18:47:15] Admin(32) says: RP something that does not involve killing someone

[18:47:22] Roberto_Cardenas(0) says: We didn't kill him.

[18:47:22] Admin(32) says: THank you

[18:47:30] Roberto_Cardenas(0) says: nor blasted his car.

[18:47:30] ***[1800] Paco_Gonzalez(40): just forget it roberto

[18:47:45] Roberto_Cardenas(0) says: And now administration will tell us what to roleplay and what not to roleplay.

[18:47:59] ***[1800] Paco_Gonzalez(40): ser no argue with them pls

[18:48:10] Roberto_Cardenas(0) says: Literally dude?

[Luca Man]

Besides of the roleplay anti-social attitude, people are anti-social almost always. For example, yesterday I asked something on /p and no one even bothered to answer. Just 2 - 3 guys said that they would answer my question after a sarcastic phrase of mine (''Thanks for the wave of answers, appreciated.''), but I told them that I didn't want the answer anymore. Really, people, what the fuck is wrong with you? Are we all playing together or just the ''fancy guys'' are to be played with? I am not pointing out fingers, but guys like Monte or Louise or whoever, who are considered ''famous'', always have attention priority, while others never exist. I really find it boring to join the server and just always play for my own, just because all others are busy asslicking the ''famous guys''. These things have to stop sometime.

[Stivi]

won't be showing the admin's name but well if this is how the thing will roll, it is surely bad for everyone.

I'm sorry but you gave it away, it's okay though. He tends to do this. And no, not every admin does this. Actually, he's the only one as far as I know.

[Gandalf]

Well I believe Scripters honoured SAPD Staff request to turn it closed group because cops were very abusive RPing curropts cops and didn't get copbanned which gave them alot of fun time and pissed few other players pulling them over and shooting them to death claiming they were curropt and sadly admins didn't do anything about it since RPing curropt officer that is a serial killer was allowed back then.... I wish a great leadership will appear in game to change, an idol that will lead greatest RP that doesn't include killing, DMing in all scenes like Frank Hawk, SAPD old leaders and Families Old leaders, I am not criticising current leader I know many leaders who are doing a great job Like Nexus, Trane and a few more but still thats not enough a server that have reached such a great quality back in the old days shouldn't ever be brought down.
We don't need scripts as much as we need great leadership
I tried to perform a leadership figure but I failed, I guess I don't have the leadership skills that people are looking for....
BTW to not be disrespectfull Cheers to the Scripters, you did an amazing job this couple monthes especially Teddy, thank you for your time!!!

The SAPD is doing a much better job as the cops in the original game. Guess not many remember the storyline...
Besides that there should be room for currupt cops, even if they do risk getting fired.
The thing is that SAPD having a less accessible structure was already planned long ago, even if SAPD at the time were not happy with it.

[Gandalf]

Most people wouldn't be interested in being the victim in a roleplay situation, so that ideology is flawed within a roleplay community.
The players need to lose the mindset of losing things which leads to them not wanting to roleplay and get to grasp the idea of roleplay and the fact that you will lose things at times.

If people can't get over that fact then they're on the wrong server and in the wrong community.
Paruni is open for those that just want to run around shooting.

It is not about winning or losing but about doing the same stupid shit 100 times a day. That is what makes people tired.

[Gandalf]

I don't want to break anyone's heart but the vision is a document created years ago that people seem to keep mistaking for a holy book that everything must go through to be created or done.
The server is going in the direction of what would best suit the community, not a few paragraphs of text keeping things in one direction whilst those that deserve to be here push for another.

We really do not need a vision of a wizard defining any and all changes whilst the majority of the community that roleplays looks for more from the server.
We are keeping the server in line with what Argonath stands for but cleaning out the bullshit and the trash in the process of tidying up the entire place.

The vision is as valid today as it was in the past.
Unless you feel that we should advantage some players over others, punish people without reason and feel yourself better as others because you have been given some power.

[Gandalf]

I've been reading so many theories about solutions and changes lately, yet I see none of you online and contributing so they can take place. While the forums are full of 'we should do this and that', in-game there are 30-35 players, and about 10-15 are roleplaying.

Things are simple, get your shit together and go do some roleplay in-game. This is what needs to be changed. It's easy to find out problems and then start talking about solutions, I can do it all day, but instead, I rather go in-game and have some actual fun.

That is usual. When people make a big fuss about changes and 'level' of roleplay always first check if they are actually playing.
Most are just trolling and recruiting.