The Argonath Vision...

[Ben.]

So yeah, let's talk about it. I'd like to hear from the guys who think the Argonath Vision is outdated, with reasons for this as well as which bit they are specifically talking about.
And for those who have only heard about it second-hand, please see it quoted below.

I'll start off by saying I don't think it is outdated - In fact, it's a really nice set of principles to keep peace and harmony in the community!

Argonath RPG was founded in 2006 with a clear target.
The founders were upset with the community they left because of how people treated each other, and how there was a lack of recognition from the administration for the efforts of new players and those who were not in the favour of leaders.
There for it was decided to create a new community that would be open to all people, and where new players were treated same as regulars and veterans. With a new community this was not a problem, as everyone was new and the only veterans were the main leaders.
With the growth of the community over the years, there have been a number of players who do not know about the origins of our community, and the goals that were set when creating it. As a result, there has been a clash between people who feel that they are entitled because of being regulars and the goals and ideas of the owners and developers.
To clarify this, we present our vision.

1.   Argonath was, is, and will always be a community that should be friendly to new people. We will continue to be  a breeding ground for new people to discover the fun of playing by imagination. This is what has brought us official status and creates a regular flow of new players in to our server, keeping the community alive and feeding it.
2.   Argonath gives equal rights to new, experienced and admin players. We do not discriminate between players, and having admin rights or being a long time player does not give any of our players rights to act as better, higher or having more status as another.
3.   Argonath does not offer privileges against payment. The equal status prohibits any possibility of payment for extra possibilities, rights or money in game.
4.   Argonath strives to keep rules simple and understandable. Our community was created as free RP, based on imagination and creativity. We will not ever support it changing in to a jungle of rules that are impossible to understand, follow and adhere to. Our rules will remain the minimal needed to stop players who wish to disturb the fun in playing from doing so, not more and not less.
5.   Argonath leaders will accept new rules and scripts only if they fit the vision. If any suggestion is limiting the possibility to play for new players, strives to give advantage to more experienced players, or creates a more complex rule that would make it hard to understand or follow, it will be rejected, regardless of how much support there is from the community
6.   Argonath players are, regardless of point 5, free to implement within their group or play guidelines and habits of playing. However they are not allowed to force people outside their group to use the same rules, resort to flaming, insulting, or trying to excluse players who do not play by non-official group rules.
7.   Argonath administration team will devote their time primarily to keep players following the guidelines. They apply for this knowingly, and will be given rights and levels according to their devotion, ability to help out others and follow the guidelines given to them. Admin rights shall never be given as reward or to show status. Promotions in the admin team will be based on the perception of the developers and main admins, and shall not be given based on seniority. If at any time admins feel not able to continue their devotion to admin guidelines, they are invited to resign. Resigning from admin rights or losing them should not reflect on the players status or recognition as valuable member of the community.
8.   Argonath recognizes that a part of the community is underage. There for the following shall be prohibited:
a.   Swearing, flaming and insulting. Within roleplay this is allowed very limited and strictly bound to the situation. If there is any doubt about the slang/language used is for ropleplay only,  administration has full right to take any measures they find necessary.
b.   Promotion of usage of alcohol, drugs and other stimulating substances. We respect the freedom of choice, however people should be respecting that others who have different beliefs and choices have this right as well
c.   Explicit sexual content. While within roleplay and discussion a certain freedom is granted, the underage community should be protected from eplicit sexual actions or content.
d.   Cyberharrasment, stalking and bullying of players based on their belief, views, race or choices in life.
9.   Argonath bases its community on respect and friendship between players of all nations.  This means that those who feel that they are allowed to disrespect others, consider others as inferior or treat them as such will be offered the choice to either change their views or leave the community. This includes any groups of players in game.
10.   Argonath will remain as open, friendly and strong community for people worldwide who wish to enjoy playing a game based on imagination and creativity.

I hope everyone will take the time to read this, and take this as their core values.

[Salmonella]

This is our bible.

[Ben.]

This is our bible.

Amen 

[Vaeldious]

Now to people who feel that what we stand for is outdated, think again. I think we should still believe in equality of players, equality of opportunities not depending on buying favours, and the main target not being winning but having fun and interacting with others. That is the core of the vision, and anyone who disagrees with that premise is invited to get the hell out of here.

nuff sed.

[JDC]

One historical info (IIRC) lost to many in Argo is that our community itself is the product of the founders being fed up with a server where admins became kings and warlords free to abuse anyone with their power, and newer / younger players looked down upon.

So aside from the quote presently in my signature, I'd also like to leave another quote by Gandalf here:

I think we should still believe in equality of players, equality of opportunities not depending on buying favours, and the main target not being winning but having fun and interacting with others. This is the core of the vision, and anyone who disagrees with that premise is invited to get the hell out of here

The principles here aim to maintain a fun community that continues to bring together friends from across the globe and keep its leaders humble, while avoiding some other communities' tendencies to enforce jungles of rules (that people love to tie each other down with) and radical social division as official policy. (i.e. Admins vs Players, "Veterans" vs "Noobs", "GTFO noob we're RPing here go fuck yourself" instead of teaching him, etc)

In short, the message is simple: don't be a dick. Sadly, more and more seem not to get that.

[Norrage]

One historical info (IIRC) lost to many in Argo is that our community itself is the product of the founders being fed up with a server where admins became kings and warlords free to abuse anyone with their power, and newer / younger players looked down upon.

So aside from the quote presently in my signature, I'd also like to leave another quote by Gandalf here:

The principles here aim to maintain a fun community that continues to bring together friends from across the globe and keep its leaders humble, while avoiding some other communities' tendencies to enforce jungles of rules (that people love to tie each other down with) and radical social division as official policy. (i.e. Admins vs Players, "Veterans" vs "Noobs", "GTFO noob we're RPing here go fuck yourself" instead of teaching him, etc)

In short, the message is simple: don't be a dick. Sadly, more and more seem not to get that.

Amen 

Amen to this instead.

[Salmonella]

Amen to this instead.

Was my post not Amen-worthy?

[Julio.]

One historical info (IIRC) lost to many in Argo is that our community itself is the product of the founders being fed up with a server where admins became kings and warlords free to abuse anyone with their power, and newer / younger players looked down upon.

So aside from the quote presently in my signature, I'd also like to leave another quote by Gandalf here:

The principles here aim to maintain a fun community that continues to bring together friends from across the globe and keep its leaders humble, while avoiding some other communities' tendencies to enforce jungles of rules (that people love to tie each other down with) and radical social division as official policy. (i.e. Admins vs Players, "Veterans" vs "Noobs", "GTFO noob we're RPing here go fuck yourself" instead of teaching him, etc)

In short, the message is simple: don't be a dick. Sadly, more and more seem not to get that.

And in my opinion, 100% still applicable.

So.... Amen.

[Benn]

There will ALWAYS be a contradiction between two types of people, the one who wants more out of everything such as turning Argonath into better place and the ones who are more of conservatives and wants to keep argonath as it is.
that contradiction is reflected in both HQ Team and players, for an example Gandalf is a conservative and Teddy is more for change.
Both type of people are right. but at the same time both are fatal, one kills the other.

[Ben.]

Well Google Custom Search is rubbish.

The point is to hear from those who say the vision is outdated - if you disagree with part of it, please quote that bit and share your reasons...

@Benn Where does the Vision say change is not allowed?

[Stivi]

#5?

[Julio.]

#5?

5.   Argonath leaders will accept new rules and scripts only if they fit the vision. If any suggestion is limiting the possibility to play for new players, strives to give advantage to more experienced players, or creates a more complex rule that would make it hard to understand or follow, it will be rejected, regardless of how much support there is from the community

Right. The rule you're saying that you're saying means change isn't allowed, isn't disallowing change.

A couple of people seem to have read the name of this topic and replied, without even bothering to read the vision properly.

[Stivi]

Right. The rule you're saying that you're saying means change isn't allowed, isn't disallowing change.

Right. The sentence you're saying that you're saying means something I'm supposed to understand, isn't something I understand.

[Julio.]

Right. The sentence you're saying that you're saying means something I'm supposed to understand, isn't something I understand.

5.   Argonath leaders will accept new rules and scripts only if they fit the vision. If any suggestion is limiting the possibility to play for new players, strives to give advantage to more experienced players, or creates a more complex rule that would make it hard to understand or follow, it will be rejected, regardless of how much support there is from the community

Let me make it easier for you to understand. Number 5 doesn't disallow change.

[Stivi]

Let me make it easier for you to understand. Number 5 doesn't disallow change.

See I have nothing against the vision, Gandalf pays the bills, he makes the decisions, it's pretty fair honestly. Hence the question mark. #5 states it's still in Gandalf's hands if something gets implemented or not, despite what the majority of the community thinks. And I think people disagree with that.