[POLL] Vehicles used in chases, by freecops

[rid]

I think freecops should have a limitation on what vehicles they can use to chase a suspect.

A simple 3 tiered system should work.

Police vehicles would always be allowed: the cruiser and the patrol. The LCPD Stockade would be only used for roadblocking and similar purposes unless the suspect is driving heavy SUVs and trucks. Possibly vans too, but I think some are too light to warrant the stockade after them.

For example, if the suspect is using a Sultan RS, Comet, Coquette, Banshee, Super GT or Turismo, then freecops are free to use any car except SUVs or trucks, UNLESS they are being used for the sake of roadblocking (and not ramming/chasing).

Now, if the suspect is using a van, SUV or truck, freecops should NOT be able to chase them with cars much faster than the ones the suspect is using. So, no Sultan RS, Comet, Coquette, Banshee, Super GT or Turismo when chasing Rebla, Huntley, Patriot, Cavalcade, Steed, Speedo, Burrito, etc.

If the suspect is using an average citizen car, like a Premier, Pinnacle, Stallion, Vigero, Feroci, Intruder, etc - you get the idea - the freecops should not be able to use supercars, fast sports cars, SUVs, vans and trucks to chase them.

I think the easiest way would be to implement a simple 3 category vehicle system:

- Fast vehicles
- Average vehicles
- Heavy vehicles

- Suspect has heavy vehicle?
Feel free to use Heavy vehicles or Average vehicles. Don't use Fast vehicles.


- Suspect has Fast vehicle?
Feel free to use Fast vehicles or Average vehicles. Don't use Heavy vehicles.


- Suspect has Average vehicle?
Feel free to use Average vehicles. Don't use Fast vehicles.

(This is very, very, very common - I've seen freecops (including a few from the administrator team) chasing new players, or me, or some of my friends, with Comets, Super GTs, Sultan RSs, Coquettes, the works - all while the suspect is using an average vehicle...).


- Suspect has NRG 900 or PCJ 600? They're considered a Fast vehicle.
Feel free to use Fast vehicles, Average vehicles or Heavy vehicles.

- Suspect has any of the other bikes? They're considered an Average vehicle.
Feel free to use Average vehicles or Heavy vehicles. Don't use Fast vehicles.

BRO, THE BIKES?!
Since bikes are very unfair towards cops, I thought about this for them:
Most bikes are considered Average vehicles, except the NRG 900 and PCJ 600 - these two are considered Fast vehicles.

However, there is an exception to bikes: Most bikes can be chased by two categories: Heavy and Average vehicles (including average bikes, which are part of Average vehicles).
The only exception, again, are the NRG 900 and PCJ 600, which can be chased by all three categories: Fast, Average and Heavy vehicles.

If this common sense is applied to chases, then they will be skill based. Because a skilled player that can get away with an average vehicle SHOULD be able to get away,
 and not unfairly rekt by freecops using vehicles much more powerful or heavier than his.

Remember that cops don't have to always win - they are NOT more important than suspects - and vice versa, suspects are also not more important than cops.

Pretty sure only the people that can't drive for shit in IV will hate this idea - because they cannot stand at the idea of losing because someone is better at driving than them, so they will do all they can to win, including using vehicles much better than the ones the suspect is using.

I believe LCPD, NOOSE, FBI and TRU already have somewhat similar systems in place (possibly a lot more complex, or more limited, in the case of LCPD members) in regards to which vehicles should be used in chases. So why not freecops too?



Now. What happens when the nearest car you have is a vehicle that isn't allowed in the chase?
You leave the suspect if he/she already has other cops after him. If there's noone after him, then you chase him in a somewhat toned down driving style - if your vehicle is much faster than his, don't speed to be constantly ramming him / closing him. If your vehicle is much heavier than his, don't constantly ram him until he gets flipped, stuck, or dies. Keep chasing him in a "just following, not engaging" mode until he drives by a police station or somewhere with state vehicles that are more suitable for the chase.


I've done this when a freecop was chasing me with a Comet, while I was only using a Sabre GT (I think? Possibly a normal Sultan, or a Presidente), and mentioned it in the chat that I could drive near police HQs so he could switch vehicles. I did it a few times, but he didn't switch because it was "not my problem". Dick move, yo. There have been other cases but this one was by far the worst.


Ok ok. What happens if the suspect switches vehicles?
If he has a lot of other cops after him, just go switch the vehicle as fast as you can. Go to the nearest state car that is allowed ,or get a police cruiser/patrol.
If you are the only or one of the very few cops chasing him, do the "following, not engaging" method until you find a vehicle nearby that suits the chase.


Some of you will also complain - wah wah wah, suspect has a Patriot! Nobody can stop him! Well that's just life.
Almost all suspects are outnumbered. In the end it evens out  - you guys have CARJACKING at your advantage, and the COP PASSENGER script at your advantage (which seems to glitch out sometimes, not allowing a suspect or normal player to get back in the vehicle even long after the cop passenger has left the vehicle, what's up with that? Not sure how it is caused).


Feel free to brainstorm this further.
If you support it, try explaining why do you think it should be implemented.
If you do not support it, try explaining why do you think this should not be implemented.

EDIT: Fixed title, fixed a few grammar mistakes.
EDIT2: Added a poll!
EDIT3: Added information about the bikes

[rid]

Shameless bump (even though it's been only an hour). I added a poll.

[skillz]

I think freecops should have a limitation on what vehicles they can use to chase a suspect.

I support this argument, to make it fair for all in how all freecops chase with certain vehicles depending what the brand/model the car what the suspect is driving.

I think freecops should have a limitation on what vehicles they can use to chase a suspect.

I believe LCPD, NOOSE, FBI and TRU already have somewhat similar systems in place (possibly a lot more complex, or more limited, in the case of LCPD members) in regards to which vehicles should be used in chases. So why not freecops too?

NOOSE has a system in place, which ensure that we make a fair system on chasing suspects as a Law Enforcement our preference is being fair.

However I see many freecops just going on /duty and using their own Personal vehicle (Preferably Supercars) to chase on lower performance vehicles (four door sedans, motorcycles) it is not a balance for the suspects, a majority likely to fall under the Freecops Supercar which I see is much more as a far more advantage in defusing the chase is just far more powerful then ever than any Law Enforcement.

Rid as to your point on Vehicle differences for this System, it's a great system for freecops.  I'm sure a Suspect driving a Ice Cream van, chased by a Infernus. Would that be even logical?

[rid]

Dude, I completely forgot about bikes.

I'm guessing they could all be considered Average vehicles except the NRG-900 and the PCJ, these two would be Fast vehicles.
Editing topic to add my opinion about them.

[Senate]

Lets not start the "you can not fart unless you type /me had beans" shit on IV:MP...

Cops should try to act as cops which means they will by nature of their role drive a cop car. If their car gets damaged, should they take a bus back to the PD to get another one and let the cirminals run ? No way. In pursuit cops can change to any car they find, the faster the better...

And BTW... if its not there put the Enforcer in. It is fast and strong so really useful to block oncoming traffic...

To add to this, this topic has been made and discussed many times. The same arguments come from both sides. You can click the link above to read that 6 year old one, or browse this section of the forum for other topics (not you specifically rid but those reading this).

I'm interested in others opinions but I think this system is too complex for the Argonath Vision.

[rid]

The topic where you got the quote from is about completely banning state/personal vehicles for freecops. Haven't yet checked out the others on this section.

This one is about categorizing them, not banning them.
Freecops can still use state vehicles to chase suspects, just in a slightly narrower view.

The only argonath vision argument I can see being used is

4.   Argonath strives to keep rules simple and understandable. Our community was created as free RP, based on imagination and creativity. We will not ever support it changing in to a jungle of rules that are impossible to understand, follow and adhere to. Our rules will remain the minimal needed to stop players who wish to disturb the fun in playing from doing so, not more and not less.

But I don't think an intuitive "Fast, Average and Heavy" system is complex. 3 is the magical number, and I think the key words are pretty much perfect.
I know someone who suffers from mental retardation (not joking) that could easily follow this system...



Fast vehicle - vroom vroom goes broom.
Average vehicle - your mommy's car.
Heavy vehicle - wow big car big wheels, scary.

10.   Argonath will remain as open, friendly and strong community for people worldwide who wish to enjoy playing a game based on imagination and creativity.

What is creative about getting the fastest car in the game, to chase the average mommy car?
What about having a somewhat leveled field, giving space for creativity, especially vehicle maneuvers that freecops would probably learn (coordination, PIT and boxing), even if very slowly, by having to push their limits in order to chase the good drivers.


What happens if they are forced to do that? I'll tell you: they will slowly get better at it (even if very slowly).
Which in turn would means more experienced driving by new LCPD members compared to the new LCPD members of older times, since they will already be familiar with some vehicle limitations that will be further increased once they join the LCPD.

Some officers you see driving around, you just look at them and know damn well they haven't chased with police cars before they applied to LCPD.


EDIT: Not only that, most people who use unfair-ish vehicles are actually players that are already familiar with the server and a few jobs.

[Killanic]

FYI I use fast vehicles on duty because I need it to compensate for the lag/lowFPS that I have :3

I think this idea is great as it would provide fairness to pursuits and it would seem simple to follow but if you go into details, it would appear more complicated than you expect. There's just too many "if its this its this and this not this" hence I agree with Senate. Plus I don't think this is really necessary as you said it yourself "a skilled player that can get away with an average vehicle SHOULD be able to get away" and there are many instances where they DO get away even when they're being chased by sports cars. So it's basically not about the speed of the vehicles but the player's ability to maneuver their vehicles at their advantage.

And in reply to your statement

Some of you will also complain - wah wah wah, suspect has a Patriot! Nobody can stop him! Well that's just life.

"wah wah wah, police officer has an Infernus! Nobody can stop him! Well that's just life."

[Quinn]

I drove the State Blista's around for 1-2 months before i bought my RS, evading against cops in Comet or Infernus was fun.

If you make the cops drive slower cars then the skilled drivers are going to get bored.

[JackDockz]

well if you wanna make the names anonymous then pls add /gps player. Otherwise you wont even know where your pal is or any other player you wanna meet up with

[rid]

well if you wanna make the names anonymous then pls add /gps player. Otherwise you wont even know where your pal is or any other player you wanna meet up with

What? They're just anonymous in the poll. Anonymous voting, not anonymous in-game lol.

I think this idea is great as it would provide fairness to pursuits and it would seem simple to follow but if you go into details, it would appear more complicated than you expect. There's just too many "if its this its this and this not this" hence I agree with Senate. Plus I don't think this is really necessary as you said it yourself "a skilled player that can get away with an average vehicle SHOULD be able to get away" and there are many instances where they DO get away even when they're being chased by sports cars. So it's basically not about the speed of the vehicles but the player's ability to maneuver their vehicles at their advantage. "

Again I doubt this is hard to explain to officers, especially since the officers that seem to take full advantage of faster vehicles against much slower vehicles, or heavy vehicles against average vehicles, etc, are already players quite familiar with the server. Most new freecops use police patrols or cruisers, because sirens yo. And also because it makes sense.

The system has 3 main categories without hardly defined vehicles in order to keep it simple - this leaves some tolerance on what vehicles police can use, but some common sense should prevail so that, for example, you don't see Phantoms actively ramming average cars (mind you not blocking the road, because that would be fine by me and probably most other criminals, since a roadblock is a nice tactic and not just vroom vroom hit the guy head on), or so you don't see an Infernus chasing a van...

Here is the thread's main point, summed up in 7 short sentences:

All suspects can be chased by Patrols and Cruisers.
Police can use heavy vehicles to block roads.

Suspect with Fast vehicle can be chased by Fast and Average vehicles.
Suspect with Average vehicle can be chased by Average vehicles.
Suspect with Heavy vehicle can be chased by Heavy and Average vehicles.

NRG 900 and PCJ 600 can be chased by all categories.
Other bikes can be chased by Average and Heavy vehicles.


How hard is it?

Fast = Fast & Average
Average = Average
Heavy = Heavy & Average

And in reply to your statement"wah wah wah, police officer has an Infernus! Nobody can stop him! Well that's just life."

But like I said, the suspect is usually outnumbered, and the police has carjacking and cop passenger script as an advantage (if a suspect make a run for it and gets in a car that is nearby they can still be carjacked 5~10 meters in distance and not be considered speedjack because it's not fast enough, but nobody likes to admit that's a great advantage for the police side.

Your argument about the high ping/low FPS is alright, but hear me out: that same reasoning also works for the criminal side.
As long as their FPS is not too low (we're talking about  +/- 14~28fps), they have pretty much no chance to evade unless the police also has low FPS. If their FPS is really, really low, then they have absolutely NO chance of evading, although ramming them / stopping them becomes much harder since they seem to lag ram every second due to the very low FPS. Killing them when on foot is hard, yes, but again same thing happens if you're trying to kill a cop which has very low FPS. From my experience an officer that has less than 20fps seems to need to take enough bullets to kill a normal officer 4 times or so.

The firerate of a lagger (criminal or police) will also be lower on their screen if they have low FPS, which means for others they will be shooting more bullets than they actually are shooting, on their screen. In other words, their ammo lasts longer.

I agree though that a high ping will generally be more advantageous to criminals than cops, since like Senate said, trying to PIT maneuver a high ping guy is quite complicated because the room for error is just too big - but not low fps.

I drove the State Blista's around for 1-2 months before i bought my RS, evading against cops in Comet or Infernus was fun.

If you make the cops drive slower cars then the skilled drivers are going to get bored.

Every player should have a fair chance of evading - you might be pretty good with a Blista (mind you the Blista has pretty decent mid-rpm acceleration, kinda like a VTEC engine would have irl), but there are many other vehicles and different players on different skill levels. If you really get bored evading with a Blista and find it too easy, you can always step up and select other slower vehicles. Because a great driver can increase their 'difficulty' setting by purposely choosing a slower car. A mid-range driver is doomed with the vehicle discrepancy issue that this thread is all about. So if a suspect is really terrible at driving he still won't have a good chance of evading and will probably get caught or end up dead in a few minutes - but hey that's fair enough, because he's simply not experienced enough to evade successfully.

This thread isn't just about chasing the best of the best, it's about every criminal. If the vehicles that officers use are more in range to what the suspect is using, you have to admit the outcome becomes more dependent on how good or bad the police drivers are, and how good or bad the criminals are. The outcome in a chase with the current system where you see a bunch of supercars chasing all kinds of slower vehicles depends more on what vehicle(s) the cop has access to at that time than how good the cops or the criminal are.

Remember that air units are already hard to get rid of unless you have a very fast car or do some trickery around Algonquin's tall buildings, but not everyone helicopter pilot will fall for that.

EDIT: Summed up thread's main point in 7 short sentences

[Huntsman]

SA:MP doesnt allow police officers to use civilian vehicles for duty. I fail to understand whats the problem with implementing the same rule in IVMP

[Killanic]

SA:MP doesnt allow police officers to use civilian vehicles for duty. I fail to understand whats the problem with implementing the same rule in IVMP

You simply cannot compared SA:MP and IV:MP. Both are from the same community but we are VERY different.

[rid]

SA:MP doesnt allow police officers to use civilian vehicles for duty. I fail to understand whats the problem with implementing the same rule in IVMP

Yeah, this would probably work fine if the sync was as good as SA:MP. Sadly there is no vehicle damage, no Z-axis when shooting on foot (which means you can't shoot up or down, always forward), drive by shooting is useless, melee doesn't work 80% of the time, and when it does it's awful, etc.

On the other hand SA:MP does not have weird carjacking which means there is a higher chance of suspects switching cars successfully unless they get shot to death or the car bursts in flames, which is easier to happen on SA:MP than IV:MP due to decent weapon sync and vehicle damage. All in all it evens out, just in a much more refined way.

[Birksy1996]

Personally, i dont think a cop should be allowed to use any other vehicle than a police vehicle and if they dont have one or are in another vehicle and a pursuit happens then they should stay 10-8 and carry on doing what they're doing because when theres sultans and sports cars chasing a suspect with a few police cars in the mix it looks really unprofessional, also i think there should be more police cars added to stations because with the amount there is atm there isnt enough especially when theres a full server and say for e.g an officer is in a chase but flips his car or his car goes into the water then that car doesnt replace itself so he's then stuck for getting a new rmp.

[B_ob]

And what about the police helicopter?
Due to being unable to ram the suspect with it, would it be allowed to chase all vehicles?