Nerf SAPD or buff Criminals

[Sawyer]

Good day.

Recently I've picked up some interest along with a certain group of other folks to spend some time in the server and actually try to establish ourselves as a solid part of the server.

During the last couple of weeks we had our fun and I cannot lie, server has actually shown encouraging signs of improvement.

However there are certain points that seem to actually be quite unfair hence making our gameplay experience somewhat unplayable.


1. BARRICADE SITUATIONS

So as FLA it is pretty common for us to find ourselves trapped in a building by the whole SAPD or any kind of law enforcement. Even if it's just 3 of us criminals against 10 or more cops/feds online, they still barricade all kinds of escape roots, making it impossible for criminals to have a fair shot of escaping even if they're already outnumbered by far.

In addition, cops have all rights in regrouping and gathering as many active hands online as possible but on the other hand criminals cannot do that due to the server marking it as rulebreaking.


2. DO NOT BE IN CONSTANT WARZONE

During my time as SAPD Officer, I hated not being paid. That's actually good to see that salaries are in place. The thing is that now that due to SAPD being a solid option for newcomers, being a criminal is a pain in the ass. We need to meet in common ground because it's quite annoying to constantly have to look over your shoulder with a high chance of an encounter being possible and a high risk of losing notoriety, drugs and money just for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. In short words, give criminals a fair amount of time to breath instead of desperately needing to look for every possible excuse from the rulebook to fuck them over. SAPD has access to free guns, armors and salary. We don't.


3. MAKING THINGS EQUAL

If you do not wish to touch any rules then that's fine. But at least give the opposing side privileges equal to the ones mentioned above. Such as discounts for weaponry, make notoriety much more easier to get, give criminal groups mapping opportunities to prevent barricade situations being so unbalanced and whatnot.

Feel free to discuss and/or add suggestions or even counter the ones in place.

[Khm]

1. BARRICADE SITUATIONS

So as FLA it is pretty common for us to find ourselves trapped in a building by the whole SAPD or any kind of law enforcement. Even if it's just 3 of us criminals against 10 or more cops/feds online, they still barricade all kinds of escape roots, making it impossible for criminals to have a fair shot of escaping even if they're already outnumbered by far.

In addition, cops have all rights in regrouping and gathering as many active hands online as possible but on the other hand criminals cannot do that due to the server marking it as rulebreaking.

Ever thought about using the ocean and run away there instead of hiding in a known property?

2. DO NOT BE IN CONSTANT WARZONE

During my time as SAPD Officer, I hated not being paid. That's actually good to see that salaries are in place. The thing is that now that due to SAPD being a solid option for newcomers, being a criminal is a pain in the ass. We need to meet in common ground because it's quite annoying to constantly have to look over your shoulder with a high chance of an encounter being possible and a high risk of losing notoriety, drugs and money just for being at the wrong place at the wrong time. In short words, give criminals a fair amount of time to breath instead of desperately needing to look for every possible excuse from the rulebook to fuck them over. SAPD has access to free guns, armors and salary. We don't.

Criminals could win 400k in one day if things go right. Cops could win only 100k  per month if things go right and they work too hard.
SAPD is not really a solid option for new players, new players usually go work in civilian jobs (which is really good) rather than go on police duty, police recruits/freecops do not get paid. Criminal "job" is highly risky so it's natural to constantly look over the shoulder to not get caught and to not get robbed by other rival criminals.

3. MAKING THINGS EQUAL

If you do not wish to touch any rules then that's fine. But at least give the opposing side privileges equal to the ones mentioned above. Such as discounts for weaponry, make notoriety much more easier to get, give criminal groups mapping opportunities to prevent barricade situations being so unbalanced and whatnot.

Feel free to discuss and/or add suggestions or even counter the ones in place.

You could literally fill your 10k notoriety score by harvesting 2 weed fields.. There can't be equality between cops and criminals, criminals must work hard enough to be equal to cops or even stronger than them (usually it's the criminals being stronger since they have grenades, molotovs, RPGs, combat shotguns). The cops on the other hand have a limited amount of weapons but they are more organised and more tactical hence the feel of inequality but on paper, criminals are the ones that are over powered.


FLA is a rebellious group which means they purposely show their teeth to the law enforcement to reach a certain political goal which is a direct threat to national security hence LAW answers them back with an iron fist unlike mafias and gangs, they try to work in secrecy and try to hide their actions from the law enforcement and they do not pose a direct threat to the government so they're always overlooked. If you chose that style of roleplay you also have to bear its consequences, although I do not appreciate the constant actions that result to a shootout.

[Sawyer]

It's convienient to compare the actual nature of criminals as in casually making more money but not doing the same for cops when they are obviously so rule-favored. Again during the barricaded scenes; there's a clear 15-30 minute gap when SAPD alerts the entire Discord so they could gather an army before breaching whilst criminals can't do jackshit once they are inside. They are on their own. They can't influence the outside perimeter, they can't have people inside and pretty much are sentenced to death by the rule preventing them from having assitance.

Running out in the open or the ocean as you suggested is also a desparate need of proving that no changes have to be made imo.

As for the constant shootouts, yes I personally am not happy with it either. But you can't really prevent a shootout from happening due to constantly having a patrol around your territory and/or SAPD always on your ass for shits and giggles.

Also what is with the max 15 minutes (irl) jail time? That's the cleanest of reasons to legit go alt-tabbed for the said period. 

[Khm]

It's convienient to compare the actual nature of criminals as in casually making more money but not doing the same for cops when they are obviously so rule-favored. Again during the barricaded scenes; there's a clear 15-30 minute gap when SAPD alerts the entire Discord so they could gather an army before breaching whilst criminals can't do jackshit once they are inside. They are on their own. They can't influence the outside perimeter, they can't have people inside and pretty much are sentenced to death by the rule preventing them from having assitance.

Running out in the open or the ocean as you suggested is also a desparate need of proving that no changes have to be made imo.

As for the constant shootouts, yes I personally am not happy with it either. But you can't really prevent a shootout from happening due to constantly having a patrol around your territory and/or SAPD always on your ass for shits and giggles.

Also what is with the max 15 minutes (irl) jail time? That's the cleanest of reasons to legit go alt-tabbed for the said period. 

Could call for people to stay outside of perimeter in RP methods then all of you get out and run to them or could just /giveup if you don't want to die.. The rule was created long ago because we've had people blasting cops outside of perimeters with planes or just shooting them out of nowhere with literally 0 interactions, using /gm and /pm instead of proper RP methods.

As for the constant shootouts, yes I personally am not happy with it either. But you can't really prevent a shootout from happening due to constantly having a patrol around your territory and/or SAPD always on your ass for shits and giggles.

I'm not here to teach you how roleplay and this is rather easy. Take pictures of whoever entered, then kidnap each one of them when they are alone and take them somewhere unreachable to torture or kill them. Why always think of one solution? (Shooting)

Also what is with the max 15 minutes (irl) jail time? That's the cleanest of reasons to legit go alt-tabbed for the said period. 

/help jail or request to go to mordor or argotraz and RP something out of it.

[El Coyote]

None of these points seemed to be a problem couple of years back, when the group you mentioned being part of had different set and amount of members, players, tagalongs.
Theres literally no change to earning money. You can still earn it embarassingly fast If you just sit down and think a little ahead. You can be millionare in days which covers up all the costs for cases and whatnot. Based on what Ive read you just dont wanna put up the effort, dont get me wrong.
 I understand how you see all this from point of view, but there are other players playing aswell, putting in the RP efforts at these situations where suspects lock themselves up indoors, it doesnt happen on two minutes as you would like to. Get a bit more adapted to the server and Im sure you might reconsider your opinion on some of the points you brought out.

Again during the barricaded scenes; there's a clear 15-30 minute gap when SAPD alerts the entire Discord so they could gather an army before breaching whilst criminals can't do jackshit once they are inside.

Tell me you havent done it yourself.

[TheGreasyChopper]

there's a clear 15-30 minute gap when SAPD alerts the entire Discord so they could gather an army before breaching whilst criminals can't do jackshit once they are inside.

In Game Rules state that:
Usage of /gm (group message), public chat, /pm (private message)
or other non-role-play communication ways to call for backup or as an IC method of
communication is deemed false and are set to a punishment.
((Yes, it is still in the rules, yes admins usually straight up avoid reports for such a thing, yes I have flagged this rule many times, but it still is there))

If you suspect calling backup over non-IC means(e.g. Discord), take it up with administration and file the appropriate reports.

To remain on topic: I do believe that cops should be nerfed and their actions regulated. There should be a list of situations which would allow the usage of sniper and assault rifles and the entire flow of events around a weedfield could be tweaked. I have noticed the "shoot first, ask later" attitude recently, which cuts off both sides fun.

What you as a criminal can do is comply every now and then. You have the right to investigation, simply give up and ask for an investigation, get someone to be your lawyer. This gives both sides an enjoyable scenario. But then again, I have to point my finger at PD/FBI - you do not always have to win and make the criminal suffer. Break down the crimes and the criminal law with the appropriate sentences for Minor Offenses, Misdemeanors and Felonies. What I mean by that is referring to the "keep things realistic" rule. Just a couple of days ago we had our restaurant surrounded and stormed by both PD and FBI, just because someone inside had an APB...FOR SPRAYING GRAFFITI OVER A POLICE CAR. How does that warrant usage of lethal force or an excessive jail time?

Add the punishment of labor in public service - set up a few PD/FBI members to ensure that the criminal caught does his 30 minutes of sweeping or 40 minutes of working the quarry. This is a roleplay server after all - leave guns blasting as a last resort.

On the offside...Perhaps FLA should reconsider using their old methods in a county which works alongside the government and supports it's Police against foreign invaders?  Bone County is and will always remain a part of the United States of Argonath and we swear our loyalty to our Constitution, The Vision, The Church, President Gandalf and Prime Minister Aragorn. If you are not okay with that, go back to your independent Flint County.

PS: "Evading makes the crime valid" should mean the person is only charged for evading, not the supposed initial crime.

[Khm]

FBI has regulations on weaponry use (don't know about SAPD) and mostly snipers are used by FBI. Don't expect snipers to not be used when you use M4s and Combats/Sawnoff shotguns along with molotov and grenade cases, it doesn't need a genius to figure out a long range tactic when there's someone using such kind of weaponry.

Add the punishment of labor in public service - set up a few PD/FBI members to ensure that the criminal caught does his 30 minutes of sweeping or 40 minutes of working the quarry. This is a roleplay server after all - leave guns blasting as a last resort.

If criminals give up that is, they rarely do.

[Stivi]

FBI has regulations on weaponry use (don't know about SAPD) and mostly snipers are used by FBI. Don't expect snipers to not be used when you use M4s and Combats/Sawnoff shotguns along with molotov and grenade cases, it doesn't need a genius to figure out a long range tactic when there's someone using such kind of weaponry.

Add the punishment of labor in public service - set up a few PD/FBI members to ensure that the criminal caught does his 30 minutes of sweeping or 40 minutes of working the quarry. This is a roleplay server after all - leave guns blasting as a last resort.

If criminals give up that is, they rarely do.

When criminals have given up, that has rarely happened. Giving up is the worst thing that can happen to a criminal and rarely ever happens because it's possibly the least optimal way of getting away with any single crime really. The rules allow for this to happen: If you escape or give up = RP ends.

[Khm]

FBI has regulations on weaponry use (don't know about SAPD) and mostly snipers are used by FBI. Don't expect snipers to not be used when you use M4s and Combats/Sawnoff shotguns along with molotov and grenade cases, it doesn't need a genius to figure out a long range tactic when there's someone using such kind of weaponry.

Add the punishment of labor in public service - set up a few PD/FBI members to ensure that the criminal caught does his 30 minutes of sweeping or 40 minutes of working the quarry. This is a roleplay server after all - leave guns blasting as a last resort.

If criminals give up that is, they rarely do.

When criminals have given up, that has rarely happened. Giving up is the worst thing that can happen to a criminal and rarely ever happens because it's possibly the least optimal way of getting away with any single crime really.

Let's just shoot eachother instead, sounds like fun. That's the criminal life, it has consequences and every criminal should consider these consequences before he goes that path. I've been one and I've rarely gotten myself in fights with cops, like what do you expect law enforcement to do if you massacre half the playerbase, give you a medal? You obviously will be chased until you either give up and get jailed or until you get killed or until you escape.

[JDC]

If criminals give up that is, they rarely do.

Does surrender/jail completely remove notoriety or merely a set amount? (asking as I am not sure of the penalty, and as someone who does both legal/illegal RPs, am new to the criminal side of things)

If the case is a notoriety wipe, then someone with high notoriety (where you can hide /area and access Ocean Docks black market), if they do not manage to escape, might be more incentivized to engage the cops in a shootout and lose on-hand weapons + lesser noto by dying, rather than be jailed and lose it all. (clarified below, thx Cow)

Of course, escape remains the most preferable option.

On that note, I've had some players say to me IG that the cops kept chasing them even after they escaped, because of APBs. If this were true, I think it should be classified as abuse, as we added the escape script in RS4 to avoid the old scenarios of only killing cops. (EDIT: clarified in rules now, thanks again)

The rules allow for this to happen: If you escape or give up = RP ends.

This should be looked at. I support both cops and criminals further exploring the possibility of alternative punishments like Argotraz/Mordor/community service rather than just leaving someone to AFK inside the cell for 10-15 minutes.

Also, Mordor interior also seems to be broken? (no entry point at the door) Or is it supposed to have no interior, while just having an outside gate I did not notice? (I'm less familiar with the current Mordor than the RS4 one)

Offtopic: Hi Stivi, got your message from Toto. Miss you too mate.


As for the balance in general, I think it is fine that the criminal side remains high-risk, high-reward. One of the main points of RPing crimes (not counting cophunt/DM) is that criminals get more than cops/civilians by breaking laws and going outside the legal limits (reward), if they are clever enough to outwit the cops. (risk)

And while I don't think the rules on weapon usage should be changed (e.g. removing snipers or combat shotgun), I do agree that SAPD calling Discord backup on weed fields should be reconciled with the IG rules stating that non-RP methods (e.g. PM) should not be used for calling backup. What that solution is, whether it is changing the rules, forbidding Discord backup, or something else altogether, should be up to the Administration. But something should be done; not so much because of the numbers of cops itself, but because this situation rarely creates fun and positive interaction for the people involved.

[Khm]

/jail reduces your notoriety by 250 (Better than get killed and losing 2000). But it sets the criminal score to 0 which is also in the criminals favour since 1 criminal score = 1k loss when you get killed and every suspection you gain 1 criminal score.

I've just updated the rules about APBs so I got that covered already, been considering it since a while since I noticed through the logs that people are complaining about it and it's usually abused.

[STALKER41]

FBI has regulations on weaponry use (don't know about SAPD) and mostly snipers are used by FBI. Don't expect snipers to not be used when you use M4s and Combats/Sawnoff shotguns along with molotov and grenade cases, it doesn't need a genius to figure out a long range tactic when there's someone using such kind of weaponry.

I have no clue how this really works, but I've seen SAPD use Sniper, particularly more high-rank members.
Otherwise, I think criminals and cops are balanced... somewhat. Though I believe SAPD's main strength comes from the fact that few people really know about their regulations 

I have to add as well -- I don't think anyone really considers surrendering as an option entirely. The (possible) consequences of it, outside of losing criminal score and notoriety, are way way more severe. And I believe more small criminal groups would have a really hard time recovering from it, though I just think that it sucks for anyone who gets a court case on them -- then they have to bust their balls to get back to some state they feel comfortable in. This just doesn't help with the fact that criminals overall refuse to RP with cops in general.

I really do not understand why Criminal Score has to also affect the amount of money you've lost on-hand. You don't even normally lose money when you die under normal circumstances, now suddenly you do because of script logic.
Honestly, as toxic as a lot of scenarios between criminals and cops are, I don't find them to be really affecting my perception on the server and by the looks of it it doesn't cause any conflict between the players atleast (from what I've seen), but there's a problem with people intentionally setting up these toxic scenarios, just like how it was with the APBs -- that's what we should be looking out for mostly.

[Khm]

SAPD and FBI regulations are different. I am not in SAPD so I don't know their regulations.
Actually the loss of money because of criminal score is there since the start of RS5. Court could be relooked at but I'm gonna need people for it since I suck in court work.

[Stivi]

If criminals give up that is, they rarely do.

When criminals have given up, that has rarely happened. Giving up is the worst thing that can happen to a criminal and rarely ever happens because it's possibly the least optimal way of getting away with any single crime really.

Let's just shoot eachother instead, sounds like fun. That's the criminal life, it has consequences and every criminal should consider these consequences before he goes that path. I've been one and I've rarely gotten myself in fights with cops, like what do you expect law enforcement to do if you massacre half the playerbase, give you a medal? You obviously will be chased until you either give up and get jailed or until you get killed or until you escape.

I've been one too, quite successful at that I might add. And I'm still 'complaining' about something being off about the system. I operated under zero consequences, some are legal loopholes which I think are okay, but some are just allowed, like dying instead of surrendering; yes you might lose some material and time, but what you don't lose is sometimes more important.

Cops in RS5 shouldn't be a problem to anyone really.  I don't expect them to give me a medal either, the system already rewards me with notoriety.

give up and get jailed: why get jailed? what if sometimes you need to be prosecuted for a list of crimes and /jail just doesn't cut it? It's not a big enough consequence.
get killed: respawn.
escape: move on.

What are the consequences of what you said?

Court could be relooked at but I'm gonna need people for it since I suck in court work.

I don't think there is anyone left around, at least not in the courts' discord server.

[STALKER41]

There is still the issue with Criminal Score, which I find making little to no sense. Criminals are meant to be evading the police, yet with the Criminal Score system you're forcing criminals to die in shootouts against cops for their own good, which, like I said, makes little to no sense.
I'd like to also talk about the prices for Sniper Cases, they cost 60k and I really can't see why. SAPD and FBI get them for free, the sniper itself is rather buggy from what I noticed, it's really just dumb, whatever meta you're trying to form here makes no sense, it has no chemistry with how the server presents the criminal career in my opinion.