Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server

[Hammer_]

I felt like there's a need for a different topic. I'll be willing to join back, work with anything, bring in more players and start from scratch with the basic factions of Argonath. We need an active ARPD, the heart of the server which is, and multiple criminal ACTIVE factions. Certain things need to be done, bringing in some of the old players via methods the other server did would work. It can not focus solely on RP, and having Argo become a Fort Carson based server was the end of it. I wasn't against the idea initially, but atleast the low-key playerbase that was present was needed too. It all went away, over the years, toxicity from the players, the HQ, and overall everyone included has driven many people away. The stubbornness of the players and as well as the HQ was the cause of it. It's now time to win over certain individuals who can bring back activity in the server, I'd be willing to work on this. Of course, good scripts are needed, professional role-play is needed, but all in all, entertainment is also needed. That's not just random events with big prizes, no, it's also the shoot-outs, gang wars, mafia wars, etc. that are needed again.
Feel free to give this a feedback, and drop suggestions below. Perhaps this could lead to the resurrection of Argonath after all.

[Badandy]

I don't believe a SAMP server is still a good idea with the state of the mod. Our plan is to move to MTA SA to start a new server. I would love to hear ideas for that but any hope for the SAMP server to be revived should die here. We have had many people in the past state that it will be revived, a revival, hell I was even part of that band wagon before. The facts are, the SAMP server has been failing for years. SAMP in general has been going down hill. Compared to MTA SA, development in SAMP is a pain in the ass with limited options. If we are going to look into the future, I would recommend responding to the survey Brian/I posted and giving feedback on that. At least MTA SA is still alive and still getting updated compared to SAMP.

And once again, we will never bribe players to play here with ranks, in game perks, etc. just so they want to play here. I don't really give a shit if other communities do it, we aren't doing it here. As I said before, I rather burn this place to the ground before I see that happen.

[Hammer_]

I don't believe a SAMP server is still a good idea with the state of the mod. Our plan is to move to MTA SA to start a new server. I would love to hear ideas for that but any hope for the SAMP server to be revived should die here. We have had many people in the past state that it will be revived, a revival, hell I was even part of that band wagon before. The facts are, the SAMP server has been failing for years. SAMP in general has been going down hill. Compared to MTA SA, development in SAMP is a pain in the ass with limited options. If we are going to look into the future, I would recommend responding to the survey Brian/I posted and giving feedback on that. At least MTA SA is still alive and still getting updated compared to SAMP.

And once again, we will never bribe players to play here with ranks, in game perks, etc. just so they want to play here. I don't really give a shit if other communities do it, we aren't doing it here. As I said before, I rather burn this place to the ground before I see that happen.

Not exactly bribing with in-game perks, or big ranks provided, no. I generally meant that with the support of the HQ providing with resources as a backbone to groups that can make a difference. If the HQ would still like to revive the Argo SA:MP server, perhaps we could have one last go at it.

[Badandy]

I don't believe a SAMP server is still a good idea with the state of the mod. Our plan is to move to MTA SA to start a new server. I would love to hear ideas for that but any hope for the SAMP server to be revived should die here. We have had many people in the past state that it will be revived, a revival, hell I was even part of that band wagon before. The facts are, the SAMP server has been failing for years. SAMP in general has been going down hill. Compared to MTA SA, development in SAMP is a pain in the ass with limited options. If we are going to look into the future, I would recommend responding to the survey Brian/I posted and giving feedback on that. At least MTA SA is still alive and still getting updated compared to SAMP.

And once again, we will never bribe players to play here with ranks, in game perks, etc. just so they want to play here. I don't really give a shit if other communities do it, we aren't doing it here. As I said before, I rather burn this place to the ground before I see that happen.

Not exactly bribing with in-game perks, or big ranks provided, no. I generally meant that with the support of the HQ providing with resources as a backbone to groups that can make a difference. If the HQ would still like to revive the Argo SA:MP server, perhaps we could have one last go at it.

We just had one last go at it. Back last year in July 2021, I joined as a developer and we had JDC as a manager and both of us were leading the server. We did alright for the circumstances and peaked at 20 players on one day. Other than that, 10 players were the average concurrent players. We had some people from another community, old Gvardia players who came and wanted to do something similar to what you are saying here. Though, it felt like a coup than them wanting to help. After a few days where we didn't give them shit in game and such, they left after deathmatching admins and saying racial slurs. So what happened after that was what always happens, lack of interest, JDC going inactive and I then slowed down my development. I burned out of SAMP back in December because of how unfriendly it is to develop in for a server. Since then, Brian, myself and others have talked about MTA SA and it sounds exciting to us. I didn't expect anyone to be on board with it but the community seems to show some interest in the idea. I think MTA SA is a more powerful platform but it does have it's drawbacks. English servers don't seem to be as common and starting from scratch is a hurdle in itself. Though, we believe it's worth to continue with it and see what we can do. I would recommend checking out that survey and letting us know what you think.

I personally think what's best for the future of this community is finally saying, we tried with SAMP and it was a great success in the past but it's time to say goodbye and see into the future. I see MTA SA as that future since there are a decent amount of people who are interested to see what we can do there. I can't offer you much except hopefully a fun experience on the MTA SA server when that releases.

[Hammer_]

I don't believe a SAMP server is still a good idea with the state of the mod. Our plan is to move to MTA SA to start a new server. I would love to hear ideas for that but any hope for the SAMP server to be revived should die here. We have had many people in the past state that it will be revived, a revival, hell I was even part of that band wagon before. The facts are, the SAMP server has been failing for years. SAMP in general has been going down hill. Compared to MTA SA, development in SAMP is a pain in the ass with limited options. If we are going to look into the future, I would recommend responding to the survey Brian/I posted and giving feedback on that. At least MTA SA is still alive and still getting updated compared to SAMP.

And once again, we will never bribe players to play here with ranks, in game perks, etc. just so they want to play here. I don't really give a shit if other communities do it, we aren't doing it here. As I said before, I rather burn this place to the ground before I see that happen.

Not exactly bribing with in-game perks, or big ranks provided, no. I generally meant that with the support of the HQ providing with resources as a backbone to groups that can make a difference. If the HQ would still like to revive the Argo SA:MP server, perhaps we could have one last go at it.

We just had one last go at it. Back last year in July 2021, I joined as a developer and we had JDC as a manager and both of us were leading the server. We did alright for the circumstances and peaked at 20 players on one day. Other than that, 10 players were the average concurrent players. We had some people from another community, old Gvardia players who came and wanted to do something similar to what you are saying here. Though, it felt like a coup than them wanting to help. After a few days where we didn't give them shit in game and such, they left after deathmatching admins and saying racial slurs. So what happened after that was what always happens, lack of interest, JDC going inactive and I then slowed down my development. I burned out of SAMP back in December because of how unfriendly it is to develop in for a server. Since then, Brian, myself and others have talked about MTA SA and it sounds exciting to us. I didn't expect anyone to be on board with it but the community seems to show some interest in the idea. I think MTA SA is a more powerful platform but it does have it's drawbacks. English servers don't seem to be as common and starting from scratch is a hurdle in itself. Though, we believe it's worth to continue with it and see what we can do. I would recommend checking out that survey and letting us know what you think.

I personally think what's best for the future of this community is finally saying, we tried with SAMP and it was a great success in the past but it's time to say goodbye and see into the future. I see MTA SA as that future since there are a decent amount of people who are interested to see what we can do there. I can't offer you much except hopefully a fun experience on the MTA SA server when that releases.

Perhaps then we can go for MTA, I'll try the server today. I'll give feedback, if it's something we can count on for some years then I'm on board, until the FiveM server finally hits off, perhaps we can pull it off. I'd prefer having an Argo FiveM server rather than Rage as FiveM is more active, and perhaps be prepared to launch a heavy RP schedule with some heavy advertisements. HQ support for the new groups starting would be vital, as well as the main factions such as the ARPD, ARFD, etc. We have to primarily think of V:MP alongside the revival of Argonath, in MTA. Make Argo great again! Would need a structured administration, structured and active PD, other active criminal factions as well to attract players(works for both V:MP and MTA). It's hard to say goodbye to Argo SA:MP, but oh well.. perhaps it's healthier for all of us.

[Badandy]

Perhaps then we can go for MTA, I'll try the server today. I'll give feedback, if it's something we can count on for some years then I'm on board, until the FiveM server finally hits off, perhaps we can pull it off. I'd prefer having an Argo FiveM server rather than Rage as FiveM is more active, and perhaps be prepared to launch a heavy RP schedule with some heavy advertisements. HQ support for the new groups starting would be vital, as well as the main factions such as the ARPD, ARFD, etc. We have to primarily think of V:MP alongside the revival of Argonath, in MTA. Make Argo great again! Would need a structured administration, structured and active PD, other active criminal factions as well to attract players(works for both V:MP and MTA). It's hard to say goodbye to Argo SA:MP, but oh well.. perhaps it's healthier for all of us.

The server won't be up for some time, there is currently no time frame yet. Outside of initial testing back in January, there was no real plan on executing this until a week ago. We are still working on a plan for the server but we released a survey to gather information from players and see. I would recommend checking it out and putting your thoughts.

https://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=129922.0

I loved SAMP at one point as well, I grew up with it back in RS4. I wrote an entire topic on this board about it. My love letter to SAMP. I don't hate SAMP, it's just that sometimes we have to let things go in order to grow. I don't know if MTA SA will be successful, there's a lot of reasons it could fail. There's also a lot of reasons why it may succeed. Nothing is ever certain but you can at least estimate. FiveM is also not certain. Even though it's new, there's a lot of competition out there but a lot of players. There is a quote I go by a lot in these kind of situations:

"It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something."

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

[Cutt3r]

I'm fine with MTASA, I mean, what's there to dislike? I responded on the survey too.

But I have a question- SAMP isn't dead since there are other English servers which are running with a (at least) 40 player minimum count. Maybe add 20 NPCs as I mentioned in the "why did you leave" topic, just to keep it running till MTASA is up. Who knows if that works, it will be great.

10 cops and 10 civilian NPCs could work.

[Hammer_]

Perhaps then we can go for MTA, I'll try the server today. I'll give feedback, if it's something we can count on for some years then I'm on board, until the FiveM server finally hits off, perhaps we can pull it off. I'd prefer having an Argo FiveM server rather than Rage as FiveM is more active, and perhaps be prepared to launch a heavy RP schedule with some heavy advertisements. HQ support for the new groups starting would be vital, as well as the main factions such as the ARPD, ARFD, etc. We have to primarily think of V:MP alongside the revival of Argonath, in MTA. Make Argo great again! Would need a structured administration, structured and active PD, other active criminal factions as well to attract players(works for both V:MP and MTA). It's hard to say goodbye to Argo SA:MP, but oh well.. perhaps it's healthier for all of us.

The server won't be up for some time, there is currently no time frame yet. Outside of initial testing back in January, there was no real plan on executing this until a week ago. We are still working on a plan for the server but we released a survey to gather information from players and see. I would recommend checking it out and putting your thoughts.

https://www.argonathrpg.eu/index.php?topic=129922.0

I loved SAMP at one point as well, I grew up with it back in RS4. I wrote an entire topic on this board about it. My love letter to SAMP. I don't hate SAMP, it's just that sometimes we have to let things go in order to grow. I don't know if MTA SA will be successful, there's a lot of reasons it could fail. There's also a lot of reasons why it may succeed. Nothing is ever certain but you can at least estimate. FiveM is also not certain. Even though it's new, there's a lot of competition out there but a lot of players. There is a quote I go by a lot in these kind of situations:

"It is common sense to take a method and try it. If it fails, admit it frankly and try another. But above all, try something."

- Franklin D. Roosevelt

Hard work is never wasted, never. About FiveM, there are a lot of players that increase day by day. With a proper structured staff team, structured PD, and already running criminal factions, there will be some activity which would attract players. Moreover, with proper advertisement, we could expect a number of players. First attempts were failed at FiveM I guess due to the players not being able to co-operate by setting their egos aside for the greater good, projects like these need people who are dedicated and not those who'd put their own desires above the server. There really is hope that it could be pulled off by co-operation between SA:MP, IV:MP, MTA players I guess. Also, having Gvardias was a mistake, they even had a rift between themselves and broke in 2020. It's just a bunch of toxic grown ups, no offence. Community > Ego. Hopefully we'll be able to achieve great things via MTA, and GTA V.

[Hammer_]

I'm fine with MTASA, I mean, what's there to dislike? I responded on the survey too.

But I have a question- SAMP isn't dead since there are other English servers which are running with a (at least) 40 player minimum count. Maybe add 20 NPCs as I mentioned in the "why did you leave" topic, just to keep it running till MTASA is up. Who knows if that works, it will be great.

10 cops and 10 civilian NPCs could work.

I don't have much knowledge about this, but sure. It could work? There's a chance to bring everything back, but requires total co-operation from all parties, and no ego.

[Badandy]

I'm fine with MTASA, I mean, what's there to dislike? I responded on the survey too.

But I have a question- SAMP isn't dead since there are other English servers which are running with a (at least) 40 player minimum count. Maybe add 20 NPCs as I mentioned in the "why did you leave" topic, just to keep it running till MTASA is up. Who knows if that works, it will be great.

10 cops and 10 civilian NPCs could work.

SAMP may still have servers that get players but SAMP itself, the mod is dead. Hell, the internet tab doesn't work. It just reflects the hosted. The SAMP forums are gone. I personally will never develop for SAMP again due to my burn out on it. If there was an active developer and at least a manager leading the server, I could imagine some players playing on it but at my peak, like I said, it was only like 10 - 12 people on a regular basis. The SAMP server isn't going anywhere until the MTA SA server is up anyway, there could be a chance that the SAMP server stays up as well but it's unlikely. Also what kind of NPCs are you expecting? Like actors or actual NPCs that do things and that you can kill like other players? Actors are very limited on what they can do but NPCs that take player slots have more abilities but I don't think they are robust enough to be too interactive but I don't know that for sure. The furthest extent I have seen NPCs do is drive planes and vehicles around on predetermined paths.

[Cutt3r]

Also what kind of NPCs are you expecting? Like actors or actual NPCs that do things and that you can kill like other players? Actors are very limited on what they can do but NPCs that take player slots have more abilities but I don't think they are robust enough to be too interactive but I don't know that for sure. The furthest extent I have seen NPCs do is drive planes and vehicles around on predetermined paths.

NPCs that take player slots. Those we can engage with, even if it is for a kill or takedown.

[Badandy]

Also what kind of NPCs are you expecting? Like actors or actual NPCs that do things and that you can kill like other players? Actors are very limited on what they can do but NPCs that take player slots have more abilities but I don't think they are robust enough to be too interactive but I don't know that for sure. The furthest extent I have seen NPCs do is drive planes and vehicles around on predetermined paths.

NPCs that take player slots. Those we can engage with, even if it is for a kill or takedown.

From my brief search on NPCs and their functions for SAMP. It looks like they could possibly respond to players with text or possibly actions? I don't know if there's a way to have them shoot or do anything complex. There are recording functions that you could record actions and they replay them but that seems limited in scope of what you seem to want. Even if it's possible, it would still take a good amount of time to make and I personally don't want to develop in SAMP anymore. In MTA SA, I have looked around at NPCs and they seem to have more flexibility with theirs than SAMP.

[Cutt3r]

Ok I understand.

The objective is to just have them walk around (the civilians) and have cops do the same unless any player kills or does a crime with the civilian NPC. So nothing complex I guess but I don't know anything about it. If this is complex, let's not proceed with it, else it's good to have.

[Mario_Rinna]

In MTA SA, I have looked around at NPCs and they seem to have more flexibility with theirs than SAMP.

The objective is to just have them walk around (the civilians) and have cops do the same unless any player kills or does a crime with the civilian NPC. So nothing complex I guess but I don't know anything about it. If this is complex, let's not proceed with it, else it's good to have.

In MTA:SA, you can spawn an NPC, and then you need to have code for it. It's like a player, except the server does the input and decides which buttons this "player" presses. That's it, there's almost nothing else you get for free. You can't use any part of single player AI, you will have to code everything yourself.

You have to code where it spawns, when it spawns, why it spawns. If it has to go from place A to B, you have to make paths for it. If it gets stuck on the way, you need to have code for it. What's an obstacle, and what isn't? If it has to attack you, you need to have code for it. You need to control it 24/7.

What's a crime? How should NPC react to it? Is he going to shoot you after you do X? What if somebody else is shooting it, who should it target when there's 2+ players around? If there are 2+ players around, which one will be syncing the NPC? What happens if you die? What happens if the NPC dies?

How do you make it engage in combat and keep it fair for the player? If you take a NPC and simply make it shoot a player, the player will lose 99% of the battles, because it has aimbot aim, lands 100% of its shots and isn't suffering any ping penalties. Does it have to pause when firing? Does it have to miss once in a while? What's it going to do if all players leave streaming range?

There's are hundreds of questions you need to answer, and even after you've figured everything out and coded it, it can easily turn out there's some kind of problem that requires you to remake everything. A bug that causes desync when nobody's looking at an NPC for some time? Stuff like that happens all the time. You need to have at least 2 people to test everything, and it's not always easy to reproduce issues when they happen.

You'll make a perfect system, and tomorrow you'll find out that it isn't perfect, because what worked with 2 players around doesn't work with 10, sync is worse, difference between lowest and highest pings is higher, etc. For one person, it will take too long to perfect it, couple of years of trial & error. It's frustrating to develop, because often you have to throw everything in the trash and start over with nothing, and it won't be your fault.

The more NPCs there are, the more resources the server needs. If one player can have 10 NPCs around him, 10 players in 10 different places spawn 100 (these don't occupy player slots in MTA). Population density becomes an issue, etc., etc., etc. You can write a book about the masochist shit that you have to go through to get somewhere.

And, yeah, it's possible to remake something similar to single player AI, and I've seen that done, and while that was very impressive from a technical perspective, it was still extremely boring.

Meanwhile in FiveM, if I am not wrong, you have access to single player AI from the very beginning, and most (if not all) of the problems above don't apply. Everybody with half a brain can make their own NPC script, it takes a 1/100th of the effort it takes in MTA, but since most people have no taste, the final product is still bland, derivative garbage.



That's why MTA:SA servers mostly have NPCs stand around (if they even have them) and not do much else, it takes too much time to end up with something impressive, thousands of hours. All those hours could be spent on creating activities for players. A popular server probably doesn't want to have any non-static NPCs at all, because they will get in the way, eat too much server CPU (pathing is either simple and cheap or complex and expensive resource-wise), and cause all sorts of problems.

Now, if the devs of MTA:SA itself provide more functionality for server developers, incl. single player AI, then it will be interesting. I think that's unlikely to happen, however.

Look at other MTA:SA servers, connect to as many as possible, regardless of language and other things, see what's possible, see what works and what doesn't. Don't "borrow" ideas just to "borrow" them. You need to have your own goals, and your script's purpose is to accomplish it. People get easily distracted, "ooh thats sum shiny shit, i want tht in my server". Shiny shit is still shit. :(

[Cutt3r]

Yes I understand it's very challenging for MTASA but my suggestion was for SAMP, in the interim. Would it be as challenging?