Discussion solely on the topic of how to bring back SA:MP server

[Sawyer]

Spoiler for Hiden:

Let's begin again, I guess..

I have never been pessimistic throughout the years in Argonath but let's be honest, due to many failures and empty promises, most of us here always expect the worst when it comes to fancy announcements or changes. While I personally do support the MTA:SA server proposal, with all due to respect to those that are willing to put their valuable time and effort; I do not see it being a successful addition.

.. but why?

Simple. It's 2022, even if we have manage to pull a healthy and progressive MTA:SA server running say five months from now; we're kind of what? 15 years late?

I can't imagine the frustration and disappointment of those who worked for the said server for months just to watch their project blow up in their faces.

Not too many MTA:SA veterans are left in here, let alone around the SA community worldwide. Yes, people would like to try it out, but is a 15 year old platform what we really need? As Nathan has nicely put it once in the past, "it's like putting lipstick on a pig. It's still a pig."

I, personally, have never tried it even though it was very famous during my time here back in 2009-2010 and definitely am willing to give it a go if the server goes live but I feel it will only pop off at the first month only to decay as the time passes later on. Players will get greedy with continuous demands for server updates, scripts etc. and will eventually get bored of it real quick due to the whole scene being familiar from the recent past as well as GTA SA is a very old game itself. Do we have the necessary hands to handle such heat? Or we're heading straight forward to another shitstorm on forum topics at everything and everyone pointing fingers to one another?

From what I've seen during my (in-game) SA:MP time the last year, it's not the scripts nor the fancy mapping that's missing; it's the motivation and the healthy environment surrounding it. I'm 100% agreeing with Nathan on this one.

There were plenty of SAMPers around during JDC's elections, including those who are supposedly "gone". The reason that was, is that the server itself had a purpose that everyone was able to either follow or simply go against it(in-game wise). We had two experienced candidates (Greasy and myself) that actually provided a lot of opportunity and I loved how everyone in-game played their own part in having a busy server.

There's enough life still around that needs to be pointed at the right direction. The majority has to come to an agreement of what we really wish to seek for in this community. We have independent veterans as well as regulars scattered around the community and for some odd reason they cannot meet with in-game time. Some are interested in VMP, others want to take over completely, some are for the sake of nostalgia, most are your average regular but surely all have a thing in common; are all still interested in seeing this community to be on its feet again.

Make do with whatever life is left in here and for fuck sake let's all be on the same page for once. See what happens then.

[Mario_Rinna]

Yes I understand it's very challenging for MTASA but my suggestion was for SAMP, in the interim. Would it be as challenging?

Will take a lot of time also. I have seen some NPCs in SA-MP, they were kind of wonky, but also somewhat similar. I don't think you'd be able to make them engage in PvE combat without some kind of custom plugin. If someone already made that, maybe you could convince them to sell or share. That'd be easier. I think I've seen CEF and Lua plugins for SA-MP, so you can theoretically combine all of that into some kind of 0.3.7 DL-based Frankenstein MTA clone. Not sure why'd you want that, though.

The reason that was, is that the server itself had a purpose that everyone was able to either follow or simply go against it(in-game wise).

I guess at some point Argonath started trying to become something different, to go from a welcoming, fun server, where RP was less regulated (and somewhat optional even, tbh) and often a prelude/excuse to DM ( ) to a cold, unwelcoming RLRP prison simulator.

Money got yoinked after the downgrade from RS4 to RS5. Nobody wanted to grind, and if you did grind, you wouldn't have wanted to easily share $ that took too long to grind. This disabled money as a RP tool, how do you recover from that? It's self-sabotage.

If script is the main source of money in the economy, and not players themselves (within RP), then you are actively fighting RP, and encouraging dumb grind. So many interactions that were possible in RS4 are impossible now. No, let's start from 0 again, with everybody a poor hobo, because everybody being a poor hobo is so realistic.

If there's a new script, you should be giving like 10x of what people had over time, give them all kinds of assets, HQs, cars, whatever. Where's the fun in doing the same grind every other server has, idk. Regulate later, when there is something to regulate. Why should people, especially those that have been around for years, if not decades, overcome useless hurdles again and again only to have the ability to self-express, to unlock basic RP tools?

[TheGreasyChopper]

 I'm all for a discussion, however all I see in this topic is stating the obvious. Sure, we need players to revive it. We need groups, we need factions, we need interactions and activity. But what do we do once there's a few of us returning? How are we going to realistically have multiple groups, when the entire playerbase is less than what used to be a requirement for a group to be created? 
 

It can not focus solely on RP, and having Argo become a Fort Carson based server was the end of it.

 Here's where you're wRONg. Carson is a small community within the community, we were just the last ones to go. We need to focus on roleplay, as it is the main way for people to interact with eachother IG.

 I find no use or point in multi-paragraph forum posts and other essays. All I can say is - pointing out what "we need", is an incorrect approach. We need a revival and the sky is blue, it's just pointing out the obvious. Where many other RP servers/communities flourished - Argo failed. And that is in maintaining the client/server/game as a canvas for RP and storytelling. We fucked up. We overdosed on TDM and turned into a TRPG server, where group allegiances dictate if you go In Game or not. People care more about what group they're in than how they present themselves, while at the same time they create another 200 groups of the same members.

 Since the main point is what could bring back the SA:MP server, I'll be brief:
 * Revision and cleanup of the group system. Throwing out the old trash only to fill in with the new was done enough, to be proven inefficient.
 * Remove the multi-accounting rule - let us have multiple accounts for different characters. I'm not aware if anything made it worse, but back in the day spotting ban-evaders was easy.
 * HQ should forget about the "it can be abused. denied." attitude for ideas. Stop antagonizing the playerbase. It is YOUR responsibility to ensure people do not abuse scripts, but rejecting essential updates because someone can be a retard is just laziness. (Applies to all servers, not just SAMP).
 * Interaction. Interaction. Interaction. Interaction. PLAYERBASE =/= ACTIVITY. Interact with eachother, don't grind the scripts. If you wish to drive a truck, fly a plane, grow weed and be left in peace - there's enough Singleplayer mods that allow you to do that. When joining SAMP(MP=MULTIplayer), you're there to play with others, not roam around on your own.
 * Transparency - HQ and players should be open about any discussion. I'm tired of the "we're working on more important things" from HQ/Server Leads. No you're not, you're busy, you're not interested, you can't be arsed, you don't think it's a good idea, you don't like the player who suggested it. Fine. It's all fine. But don't bullshit us, we've been around for too long. Sure, Nathan can be vocal about it and that's why he's everywhere, but what about the times when I reached out to HQ? Didn't even get a "thanks for your interest".
 * Stop expecting change to happen and requesting it, be the change. It can work out. If not, use it as a lesson.

 I'm tired of trying myself, I managed to get the Fort Carson Project from a little quiet town we escaped drama and made or own rules to the hill that SAMP died on. But if you somehow manage to get SAMP back active I will do my best to stop by.

[Sawyer]

I guess at some point Argonath started trying to become something different, to go from a welcoming, fun server, where RP was less regulated (and somewhat optional even, tbh) and often a prelude/excuse to DM.

I might add that this "heavy RP server" argument also kind of split the server in half in terms of the healthy environment I mentioned earlier.

HeAVy RP, LiGhT RP, MeDiOCrE RP my ass. Nobody EVER wanted to be fined a ticket for not following traffic lights, or be thrown into jail for driving onto a sidewalk to remind us that we are a RPG community. Ridiculous.

[Mario_Rinna]

I find no use or point in multi-paragraph forum posts and other essays.

He wrote, in the third paragraph of his essay. ^

We overdosed on TDM and turned into a TRPG server, where group allegiances dictate if you go In Game or not. People care more about what group they're in than how they present themselves, while at the same time they create another 200 groups of the same members.

Isn't this how it always was, though?

* Remove the multi-accounting rule - let us have multiple accounts for different characters. I'm not aware if anything made it worse, but back in the day spotting ban-evaders was easy.

Or 1 account = multiple characters, that's also common. Login/acc name doesn't have to match character name.

I'm tired of trying myself, I managed to get the Fort Carson Project from a little quiet town we escaped drama and made or own rules to the hill that SAMP died on. But if you somehow manage to get SAMP back active I will do my best to stop by.

It shouldn't be you who's trying, though. Should be the server owner, who is supposed to be the most motivated and active person, because, after all, this is supposed to be their community.

Why should anyone play in Gandalf's & Aragorn's server, if they don't play themselves? Why should anyone be motivated, if they're not? Do something, if they're not doing anything?

Communities with active, playing leaders/owners always do better.

HeAVy RP, LiGhT RP, MeDiOCrE RP my ass. Nobody EVER wanted to be fined a ticket for not following traffic lights, or be thrown into jail for driving onto a sidewalk to remind us that we are a RPG community. Ridiculous.

The original playerbase wasn't looking for RLRP either. Wouldn't have stayed in the first place if that's what they were looking for.

[TheGreasyChopper]

Or 1 account = multiple characters, that's also common. Login/acc name doesn't have to match character name.

We did have a multi-character script for quite a while, not sure why it was removed. But changing your skin does not mean you are changing your character. If I want to roleplay a Police Officer, I'd like a separate start in which I no longer own my houses full of drugs, bought with drug money. I also find it ridiculous how many people avoided RP situations by saying "I was a different character at the time". Not sure if you've ever played D&D or any other tabletop RPG, but you can't have one character sheet, with the same inventory, level and skill for multiple others. Doesn't work out.

Generally the idea is to split properties/assets/stats based on the character you're playing, don't really care about the name honestly.

It shouldn't be you who's trying, though. Should be the server owner, who is supposed to be the most motivated and active person, because, after all, this is supposed to be their community.

 They have not been involved in any matter whatsoever since RS5 from my standpoint. If you want something done right, then you should do it yourself.

Isn't this how it always was, though?

 Not when I initially joined. Groups got along, people had fun. It wasn't as toxic and aggressive as it was the last few years of activity.

[Badandy]

Or 1 account = multiple characters, that's also common. Login/acc name doesn't have to match character name.

We did have a multi-character script for quite a while, not sure why it was removed. But changing your skin does not mean you are changing your character. If I want to roleplay a Police Officer, I'd like a separate start in which I no longer own my houses full of drugs, bought with drug money. I also find it ridiculous how many people avoided RP situations by saying "I was a different character at the time". Not sure if you've ever played D&D or any other tabletop RPG, but you can't have one character sheet, with the same inventory, level and skill for multiple others. Doesn't work out.

Generally the idea is to split properties/assets/stats based on the character you're playing, don't really care about the name honestly.

This is part of my initial plan for MTA SA, one of the core concepts will be a character system. This will be the official way to roleplay different characters. As well, they share nothing with the other characters. Properties, vehicles, inventory, etc will be tied to each character and not the account. This will hopefully prevent the bullshit scenarios we all had before where it just ruins the fun for everyone. One account will be used for logging in and then you will be prompted with a character selection/creation screen.

[Cutt3r]

Yes I understand it's very challenging for MTASA but my suggestion was for SAMP, in the interim. Would it be as challenging?

I think I've seen CEF and Lua plugins for SA-MP, so you can theoretically combine all of that into some kind of 0.3.7 DL-based Frankenstein MTA clone. Not sure why'd you want that, though.

Actually, all I was suggesting was to have the Frankensteins walk and die when they are shot or run over.

Here is why that came up:
1. If I'm bored, I would rp a sort of stick up or such where the Frankenstein civilian would walk past me, I would rp anger and shoot. Frankenstein Cops chase me like SA single player and end of rp.

2. Till there are enough players, this may keep some blokes like me on server. Otherwise there is nothing to do. I may rp running them over too. Get wanted, and I have something to do.

So I'm not expecting much scripting but I don't really know how much effort is needed for the above.

[TheGreasyChopper]

Yes I understand it's very challenging for MTASA but my suggestion was for SAMP, in the interim. Would it be as challenging?

I think I've seen CEF and Lua plugins for SA-MP, so you can theoretically combine all of that into some kind of 0.3.7 DL-based Frankenstein MTA clone. Not sure why'd you want that, though.

Actually, all I was suggesting was to have the Frankensteins walk and die when they are shot or run over.

Here is why that came up:
1. If I'm bored, I would rp a sort of stick up or such where the Frankenstein civilian would walk past me, I would rp anger and shoot. Frankenstein Cops chase me like SA single player and end of rp.

2. Till there are enough players, this may keep some blokes like me on server. Otherwise there is nothing to do. I may rp running them over too. Get wanted, and I have something to do.

So I'm not expecting much scripting but I don't really know how much effort is needed for the above.

Nice seeing you stop by again, Cutt3r! I have to be brutally honest but...What would the difference be between doing that and just having an instance of Single Player going on while you're IG and waiting for others to join? I mean, shit...What was the MTA motto again? 

(On a side, offtopic note: Most of us have smartphones of some sort, I really recommend getting GTA Chinatown Wars, great time filler while waiting for shit to happen in other games)

[Nathan]

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[Cutt3r]

Nice seeing you stop by again, Cutt3r! I have to be brutally honest but...What would the difference be between doing that and just having an instance of Single Player going on while you're IG and waiting for others to join? I mean, shit...What was the MTA motto again? 

(On a side, offtopic note: Most of us have smartphones of some sort, I really recommend getting GTA Chinatown Wars, great time filler while waiting for shit to happen in other games)

Hi Sir!
I have more than just "stopped by". I think I'm gonna be around a while!  All depends on my work and baby duties but as she is almost 2, things should become more stable

Here is the reason I proposed this and not using the single player version - I can engage other players who join if I'm in argo with the bots rather than missing out. The other day, I afked and missed a chance to engage with krutoi_corleone. So yes, I felt if this is relatively easy to do, it would help.

[Kessu]

I believe Badandy and Brian both have positive intentions for this part of the community. I believe the people surrounding them unfortunately do not and are just ineffective and inactive benchwarmers who provide no value. Their opinions brought us to our current state and they will always refuse to acknowledge it. Instead, they will point the finger back at you and blame you for the problem.

Oh this I want to hear some elaboration on.

Please, post your facts or is this one of your attempts to be the center of attention and go crying off somewhere when it doesn't happen? 

[Hammer_]

I believe Badandy and Brian both have positive intentions for this part of the community. I believe the people surrounding them unfortunately do not and are just ineffective and inactive benchwarmers who provide no value. Their opinions brought us to our current state and they will always refuse to acknowledge it. Instead, they will point the finger back at you and blame you for the problem.

Oh this I want to hear some elaboration on.

Please, post your facts or is this one of your attempts to be the center of attention and go crying off somewhere when it doesn't happen? 

[Hammer_]

The Carson project was a failure, and not good enough. It does not provide you full accessibility over the entire centre of RP. You expect groups that are mafia based to be in FC, and somehow keep a town like that active? Argo being set over the entire map is what it always was, FC is just a place where role-play of motorcycle clubs, and lowly gangs can take place. If, somehow the Argo playerbase was back up, let's say a 100 players. How are you gonna fit that many people in FC, and let them do their projects if the base of the server is FC instead of LS?
"Here's where you're wRONg. Carson is a small community within the community, we were just the last ones to go. We need to focus on roleplay, as it is the main way for people to interact with eachother IG."
You're wrong. You can't expect the server to be up or anything of the sort by having a small community within the community, of-course you need to focus on role-play but role-play was never the only primary reason for people to stay. It was fucking around with their friends, interacting with other groups, TDM, police pursuits etc. Argo was never a heavy-RP server that solely focuses on RP, and RP only and will have many players like a certain heavy RP server focusing on a county. FC isn't even a county, it's a small town. Argonath was never based off on that, I've been in this community since 2013, I never saw that happen.

[Sawyer]

You can't expect the server to be up or anything of the sort by having a small community within the community

While I'm not 100% with you with the rest of the content, Hammer, this quote in itself is spot on.

I've proposed this in the past but I am going spit it out once more. We had to either switch states every 5-6 months or simply find another alternatives of keeping the players interested. The "small town" project, as people call it, is indeed fun, but limits the player in terms of things to do other than "RPing".

We all know SAMP as a platform is a virtual world of people wanting to gain status, being able to consistently grow financially as well as you also nicely put it, Hammer, be able to fuck around when you have nothing to do of use in-game.

In short, I still do respect the idea of Fort Carson being the center of attention for the server to bring the entire playerbase together, but it was a matter of time until Fort Carson itself bores you to death, and eventually /q or even not join the server at all in order to repeat the same routine.