Dialog with the Owners

[Gandalf]

I am unsure if you misunderstood my point, but what I was trying to say is, while you were away, and while Gandalf was absent, a few people have been running this community, you have returned, and this is exciting. But we are neglected completely, you act like we do not exist, you do not care for anything we seem to have to tell you, which is fine, it is your community, but some type of direction, or perhaps to hear what you expect of us would be nice.

/quote]
By developers Aragorn means everyone with a responsibilty, community leaders as wel as scripters, server leaders, beta testers etc. SO not just the people with a title developer.
Leading a community is about acting and being active, not about showing your status

Out of the five community leaders only three started actively discussing.
Haldir gave his take on V:MP and his ideas and work.
Kessu showed his ideas and the VC:MP status.
You gave your take on things and website.

But...
Grimbeorn barely said hi. Maybe he is busy IRL at this time, or he is just tired.
Senate we did not hear from at all,  if he left why is he still community leader?

The main thought we get is everyone is afraid of their status. Which says a lot about how sure they are in doing heir job right.
As said we are not here to throw out everyone and do whatever we want. But we will expect those who have leadership to be active and show skills.

You mention you want things. Well you are leader so what were you waiting for?
I understand people got in to place without experience, and we do no blame anyone (unlike some), but leadership requires decision making and pushing toward goals. This is why we gave control to the leadership instead of requiring approval for every step.

[Sawyer]

What happened to Paruni?
There was decent activity when we opened Paruni and the CS servers took off quite fast as I remember, we had like a few severs that was often full.

Yes, that is very true. If you are talking about the most recent resurrection of the CS:GO server, it became an active server due to CS:GO's popularity at the time.

Afaik everything just went blank and the server just went down due to "lack of support". We never had any solid explanation, even as admins at the time. Everyone just vanished and we simply had to move on to SAMP's DM which was also on life support due to Monte being.... Monte.


I'm pretty positive there's shitloads of regulars around here that would love to have a chance to play in Paruni once more, whether that's SAMP DM or any other related DMing platform for that matter. They are just absent currently for certain other reasons. A group of appropriate people can still be found if there's an actual interest of reviving Paruni.

[Mark Knight]

What happened to Paruni?
There was decent activity when we opened Paruni and the CS servers took off quite fast as I remember, we had like a few severs that was often full.
It's where the growth really can take off, both communities can and should benefit from each other.

I do not know about other platforms of Paruni but what I can do is tell you about what happened to SAMP DM or atleast till the time I was around. After Plasma resigned as GOW, he selected Ebonzo to be the next GOW. He was always inactive and there was little to no progress around that time. After Ebonzo left, Hamza was selected as the next GOW. Hamza and I tried out best to keep Paruni alive and dedicated most of our hours to Paruni as we already said our goodbyes to Argonath RPG. We tried our best to make the server interesting, from organizing events to always looking to expand the staff.

Two things happened which ultimately led to us leaving Paruni. The first reason was the lack of scripters. We only had Fuzzy as the sole scripter of Paruni and we all knew that the server was getting outdated but there was only so much that Fuzzy could do. Eventually we tried to hire new scripters but no one was interested. We contacted Wake Callison who was a GOW and scripter along with Plasma back in the days and he agreed to come back, however, he did not have the FTP access (something like that, not good with technical stuff) of Paruni and we were eventually led to contact Gandalf for the access. Wake had received another offer which actually paid him for his work so he eventually decided to move on after countless emails to Gandalf were unreturned. Lack of developers was a big factor eventually burying Paruni.

Now, the second reason was Monte. We received a reinstatement request from him and Hamza and I decided to accept him back into the staff as he was a veteran and we needed experienced members. Not knowing the nature of Monte, we were naive and he immediately tried to take over and was clearly after the HQ position. We ignored him many times and warned him aswell but eventually the server was down due to some reason (not good with the technical part) and Fuzzy ended up handing over the script to Monte who hosted the server through his own money. Now, I appreciated at that time that he was doing and thinking something nice for the server but that did not give him the right to actually lead a coup against us. He ofc got the rcon password as he was the one hosting and made him self a GOW. He created a seperate admin group on Skype and added all the admins (excluding Hamza and myself) and started acting as he was the leader. Even the admins went against us some of them who are still around but I am not going to name them.

We felt helpless. GOW and the manager rank just seemed like statuses without any real power as the owners had all the resources and were not interested in what was happening to Paruni.

After all this fiasco, I wrote Gandalf about this and he replied saying that as Monte is hosting the server, he can basically do whatever the hell he wants or else Hamza and I have the option to resign. I was done fighting and gave up in the end. Hamza and I both resigned, what happened after that and what Monte did to Paruni is known to all of you.

I do not want to fight or create an argument with anyone, I am just telling you my experience of Paruni. Hamza and I tried our best but whatever happened, happened.

After a long time, I decided to visit Argonath again and guess what? There was a DDOS attack moments after Hamza and I resigned and we were blamed for it. I was even banned from the WS forums by Manoni who said that we DDOSed the server and deserved a community ban. The way we were treated was heartbreaking, all we wanted was to get Paruni back up and running again.

[Kowalski.]

It's all good that you want to work with the original Argonath Vision, but I think the ideas and thoughts of players are just as important.

Your words just show that you have no idea what is Argonath vision that is why to discuss it has no sense... I suppose that you all were told already by some players that we are not listening to players and their ideas - thats a bullshit... And the whole Argonath is a prove to that...
With that I will not continue the fight with this wind moles and will not waste my time...

Clearly my point in its entirety went flying out the window.

In what way do I "have no idea what the Argonath vision is" when I've clearly just said that it's all good that you want to go with the Argonath Vision?

I suppose that you all were told already by some players that we are not listening to players and their ideas - thats a bullshit...

I don't give a damn if others have their own opinions, they have the right to think whatever they like. I never accused you of not listening to players nor their ideas.

What I am saying is that we need to come together as a community and really agree on things so that everyone enjoys the experience. Want to go with the Argonath Vision? Go ahead. Why stop ideas such as stricter roleplay rules which quite a few players of the community have asked for, based on failures in roleplay due to the previous rules which simply did not enforce any quality in roleplay? It doesn't go against the Argonath Vision, and frankly its what this community wants anyway.

We don't need a million strict rules, but what we need is structure, and that's what guidelines like the roleplay rules I mentioned would do.

It's not about blaming you, it's about wanting the work we've done so far to keep going forward to create a better environment overall.

Stricter role play rules, for example, don't go against the vision as though it's another community, they're just slightly more roleplay-oriented so that there's no bullshit during roleplay.

I think what we need to do is weigh up both ends, make educated decisions with the players and the community leaders, and finally, decide on things as a community.

Just my friendly input.

Tell me - where have I accused you? Secondly, what could you possibly have to lose by listening to the community and thinking about this from a perspective of what the community wants? Why not involve your community and its leadership on these matters?

I have not told you once to disregard the Argonath Vision nor have I accused you of anything.

You keep telling people they'll get their own space, or can choose to create their own community, but people still want Argonath to thrive, but it feels like that doesn't matter to you, different opinions are not allowed even if they are just that, opinions, and that sucks, it feels like I have tried keeping this community running as smoothly as I could for years, I've always respected your and other leaders wishes, cause I enjoy doing what I do.

I am sorry if this place means perhaps as much to me as it does to you. This is the same for many of the other leaders, staff members, and also many of the veterans, and each have we put many years towards trying to make this community a better place, each in our own way.

But we are neglected completely, you act like we do not exist, you do not care for anything we seem to have to tell you

Well try other way to tell me without pointing fingers that I was absent... I will not continue to put in every post greetings and thanks... Once I said - I liked your work - it is not under discussions... I either did not tell that I will remove you or your work - strange that you are all afraid of what was not even pointed by me - so decided for me what I will do and now trying to fight it I suppose... Well fight, but it is your vision on Aragorn and not Aragorn as I am... Why you all are afraid still makes me think there is some other side of this fear not just "Aragorn can shut down our work"... And that other side I will figure out sooner or later...

Now we're into conspiracies? What makes you think there's anything else to it? What happened to the points Brian made? (Refer to the quote above yours)

I think the Argonath Vision is a subject of debate

Argonath vision itself will not be under discussion and that is what all veterans should understand here...

So no... No any debates - is Argonath Vision correct or not... If someone does not like it - there are other servers where they can have their own fun...

I'm fairly sure this is a major component of what's pissing people off. It sounds as though you couldn't give a damn about any other views or opinions, and are pedal-to-the-metal gung-ho about the Argonath Vision only, and anyone with any different opinions will be shown the door. Again, I'm not accusing you, but I'm informing you of how people may perceive these comments and statements.

Why do we need to change the server vision -RP rules?

Read my previous post...

You quite literally missed the entire point that Mac here was trying to make for the betterment of this community.

Listen guys we were just talking with Gandalf and decided to implement one thing which we are used sometimes to happen...
Those who are not agree with our RP style and want more strict roleplay or more additional rules, different admins work different vision on how to run server...

We will just give you another Argonath server where you can create on your own and prove to us that you were right...
Simple, effective, does not need a lot of discussions...)))

You think you can do better - show it... Yeah?

People aren't afraid to do so, and the people who have done this have done a great job in this community. Why should new servers be opened on the exact same platform just for the sake of having an internal war between two ideas and complicate things beyond all reason?

Just as a tl;dr:

People have their own opinions, which they have the right to. Some of your posts are being perceived as "we're right you're wrong" and people are annoyed by it. They want an equal opportunity to influence this community in a way that attracts players and involves consensus, based on what everyone wants, not solely based on a vision that people have different opinions on. You saying people can leave if they disagree is part of the problem, we don't need to show other players out of the community just because they have an idea of their own as to how this community could potentially work.

NOBODY IS ACCUSING YOU OF ANYTHING, THEY'RE MAKING STATEMENTS BASED ON YOUR ACTIONS IN THIS TOPIC.

[Khm]

What happened to Paruni?
There was decent activity when we opened Paruni and the CS servers took off quite fast as I remember, we had like a few severs that was often full.
It's where the growth really can take off, both communities can and should benefit from each other.

I do not know about other platforms of Paruni but what I can do is tell you about what happened to SAMP DM or atleast till the time I was around. After Plasma resigned as GOW, he selected Ebonzo to be the next GOW. He was always inactive and there was little to no progress around that time. After Ebonzo left, Hamza was selected as the next GOW. Hamza and I tried out best to keep Paruni alive and dedicated most of our hours to Paruni as we already said our goodbyes to Argonath RPG. We tried our best to make the server interesting, from organizing events to always looking to expand the staff.

Two things happened which ultimately led to us leaving Paruni. The first reason was the lack of scripters. We only had Fuzzy as the sole scripter of Paruni and we all knew that the server was getting outdated but there was only so much that Fuzzy could do. Eventually we tried to hire new scripters but no one was interested. We contacted Wake Callison who was a GOW and scripter along with Plasma back in the days and he agreed to come back, however, he did not have the FTP access (something like that, not good with technical stuff) of Paruni and we were eventually led to contact Gandalf for the access. Wake had received another offer which actually paid him for his work so he eventually decided to move on after countless emails to Gandalf were unreturned. Lack of developers was a big factor eventually burying Paruni.

Now, the second reason was Monte. We received a reinstatement request from him and Hamza and I decided to accept him back into the staff as he was a veteran and we needed experienced members. Not knowing the nature of Monte, we were naive and he immediately tried to take over and was clearly after the HQ position. We ignored him many times and warned him aswell but eventually the server was down due to some reason (not good with the technical part) and Fuzzy ended up handing over the script to Monte who hosted the server through his own money. Now, I appreciated at that time that he was doing and thinking something nice for the server but that did not give him the right to actually lead a coup against us. He ofc got the rcon password as he was the one hosting and made him self a GOW. He created a seperate admin group on Skype and added all the admins (excluding Hamza and myself) and started acting as he was the leader. Even the admins went against us some of them who are still around but I am not going to name them.

We felt helpless. GOW and the manager rank just seemed like statuses without any real power as the owners had all the resources and were not interested in what was happening to Paruni.

After all this fiasco, I wrote Gandalf about this and he replied saying that as Monte is hosting the server, he can basically do whatever the hell he wants or else Hamza and I have the option to resign. I was done fighting and gave up in the end. Hamza and I both resigned, what happened after that and what Monte did to Paruni is known to all of you.

I do not want to fight or create an argument with anyone, I am just telling you my experience of Paruni. Hamza and I tried our best but whatever happened, happened.

After a long time, I decided to visit Argonath again and guess what? There was a DDOS attack moments after Hamza and I resigned and we were blamed for it. I was even banned from the WS forums by Manoni who said that we DDOSed the server and deserved a community ban. The way we were treated was heartbreaking, all we wanted was to get Paruni back up and running again.

I confirm this, I was there during the whole thing until the very end of Paruni but to elaborate something.

The server was down because of a migration to another host that Argonath and Paruni were both involved in. If I remember correctly Teddy was the one that had access at that time to hand over the keys to each division and service but paruni didn't get theirs for months which led to its demise although it had a very active playerbase. All servers including forums were down at that time which raised questions if the community was abandoned or no as leaders and developers at that time were trying helplessly to contact the owners (not knowing that Teddy had the keys) to bring the community back before they lose the whole playerbase. Someone before Monte iirc hosted the community then Monte spoke with Quinn (Gandalf or Sauron) according to him behind Hamza's and Frank's backs and took over the hosting for Paruni.

CSGO came in with the lead of (please forgive me) a very well known veteran that I forgot his name as well as Invectus and Gakgoss returning. SA:MP received a lot of weird changes into the script that completely broke the gamemode which led to the change of it twice. The last developer there was Heller and RobinPotter (the current dev we have here now) who created a good gamemode from scratch and was about to be released but Monte suddenly pulled the plugs.

[Aragorn]

Well as I see Paruni veterans are still on and up to rebirth it... With that are several points from me...
1. What exactly Paruni wanna start from...
2. What kind of owners support you all need...
3. What is the current atmosphere between former members of Paruni (are they still in conflicts with each other or the rest who stayed are ok)...
The last point is cos I will not start admins team on Paruni who cannot handle with each other even then what to expect from Paruni then yeah?

So this can answer every interested in Paruni person and the best way - my PM

Ps: and to all actually members of Argonath... things like "Shit happened but I will not tell names" for me - empty words... If you want me to take actions and figure out the situation - just tell me openly otherwise do not tell it at all... I am the owner and not a rumors keeper, yeah?

[Aragorn]

Now we're into conspiracies? What makes you think there's anything else to it? What happened to the points Brian made? (Refer to the quote above yours)[/qoute]

for last three days I spent on you guys the whole days and still you blame me that you do not exist for me... Words words words... If that is the way to talk to me - do not talk at all... Yeah, sorry...

I think the Argonath Vision is a subject of debate

Argonath vision itself will not be under discussion and that is what all veterans should understand here...

So no... No any debates - is Argonath Vision correct or not... If someone does not like it - there are other servers where they can have their own fun...

I'm fairly sure this is a major component of what's pissing people off. It sounds as though you couldn't give a damn about any other views or opinions

As I stated, Argonath Vision will not be under debates, want you or not... If you were mislead all this years of me being away - do not expect from me to sit with everyone who was toxic-ed about Argonath "incorrect" vision and waste my time to explain it... As I stated nowadays my words are nothing - to you to developers to anyone here, so I can not even show my opinion - you, who never met me, already have opinion...

That is why I will not waste my time with explanations and agreed to give opportunity to all ANTI-Argonath vision fans to show me their vision - not on blah blah but on work... I doubt any other server owner with his own vision listened THAT CLOSE to his players that even decided to give the whole server to work with a modern (which lasted at least 10 years already, yeah very modern) vision... So as you see I am not only listening to players but give possibilities which not everyone will give else...

[Kowalski.]

And once again, you prove my point by ignoring 85% of my post, just as you did with previous posts which I pointed out. You would have noticed if you'd bothered to actually read the post and respond to the entirety of it.

Kessu's already told you a project is underway. That pretty much counters your point about "stop blah blah and prove it" entirely.

I'm not telling you to change or ignore the Argonath Vision, I'm saying the community should be involved in the changes and the changes made should be based on what the community wants.

Again, had you actually read my post, you might have noticed.

[Khm]

Well as I see Paruni veterans are still on and up to rebirth it... With that are several points from me...
1. What exactly Paruni wanna start from...
2. What kind of owners support you all need...
3. What is the current atmosphere between former members of Paruni (are they still in conflicts with each other or the rest who stayed are ok)...
The last point is cos I will not start admins team on Paruni who cannot handle with each other even then what to expect from Paruni then yeah?

I've sent a valuable thing yesterday to Brian (it's best to coordinate with him since he knows best) that could kickstart Paruni's SA:MP division well but I suggest to use the foundation that we spoke about on discord, that I suggested originally for SA:MP's Argonath. (I prefer to not mention it publicly to avoid rivals copying the plans like they always do).

As for conflicts between players, there have never been a conflict between players on Paruni (excluding hackers obviously). The only conflict that happened was the host take over, that's all.

[Aragorn]

And once again, you prove my point by ignoring 85% of my post, just as you did with previous posts which I pointed out.

Correct... If the person talks to me in a way he knows better my vision and position then let him talk with himself...

[Kowalski.]

My god... who said anyone knows the vision better than you do? Again with the random implications that someone's accusing you.

I write a message of four short lines and yet the main point goes soaring over your head and out the window again...

I'm going to put this in the simplest terms possible:

NOBODY IS TELLING YOU TO DISREGARD OR UNDERMINE THE ARGONATH VISION NOR IS ANYONE QUESTIONING OR DOUBTING YOUR FAMILIARITY WITH IT. We are saying that the community should have involvement in the changes and that the changes you make should be focused on a better community, which means including them in the decision making and not ignoring their views.

[Huntsman]

From what I see, and with the attitude that this is being approached at, something tells me this is going to be the final nail in the coffin. I really hope I'm wrong.

I hope you realize that you're currently really in no position to tell anyone who doesn't agree with your ideas to "leave"? Players and loyal regulars is what Argonath critically needs the most right now. And you're quite successfully telling these people off.

Let's remember what happened last time this attitude was employed.. hm.. OHH.. YES! ARGONATH DIED!

Good game, everyone. You'd assume that grown ass men would have some common sense, but so far it's been nothing but childish tantrums over their authority.

[Aragorn]

My god... who said anyone knows the vision better than you do?

Nobody... You just does not know our vision and that is the problem why me and you should not start arguing...

[Gandalf]

My god... who said anyone knows the vision better than you do? Again with the random implications that someone's accusing you.

I write a message of four short lines and yet the main point goes soaring over your head and out the window again...

I'm going to put this in the simplest terms possible:

NOBODY IS TELLING YOU TO DISREGARD OR UNDERMINE THE ARGONATH VISION NOR IS ANYONE QUESTIONING OR DOUBTING YOUR FAMILIARITY WITH IT. We are saying that the community should have involvement in the changes and that the changes you make should be focused on a better community, which means including them in the decision making and not ignoring their views.

And what you do not get it that the community has had opportunity for several years to do this.
We have always involved the community and will do so. But sometimes the community does not know what they want, and then it is the job of leaders to point in the right direction.
Funny how Aragorn who has not been here for several years is seen as a problem. Perhaps start looking at us as a solution...

[Huntsman]

My god... who said anyone knows the vision better than you do? Again with the random implications that someone's accusing you.

I write a message of four short lines and yet the main point goes soaring over your head and out the window again...

I'm going to put this in the simplest terms possible:

NOBODY IS TELLING YOU TO DISREGARD OR UNDERMINE THE ARGONATH VISION NOR IS ANYONE QUESTIONING OR DOUBTING YOUR FAMILIARITY WITH IT. We are saying that the community should have involvement in the changes and that the changes you make should be focused on a better community, which means including them in the decision making and not ignoring their views.

And what you do not get it that the community has had opportunity for several years to do this.
We have always involved the community and will do so. But sometimes the community does not know what they want, and then it is the job of leaders to point in the right direction.
Funny how Aragorn who has not been here for several years is seen as a problem. Perhaps start looking at us as a solution...

With all due respect, this is not the first time you come back with "solutions" and "redemption" after God knows how long, stick around for a month and leave. I bet this isn't going to be any different.

But undermining the work of people who've kept this community on life support while you two were God knows where. Now that's another level.