RP Moaning & One-Sided RP

[Frank_Hawk]

This is a very good topic discussion where criminals/civilians will have the ability to voice their view constructively. I hope in the coming week this topic is not locked for serving its purpose as there will be a climatic paradox.

This community in certain aspects are built on realism. For example, the SAPD have overwhelming power over civilians and criminals. This is achieved through uncharged weaponry and SAPD aligned admin rules. This includes the ability for SAPD officers to return to a RP once they have been killed. In contrast, criminals are not permitted to return to a RP once they have been killed. In addition, there is overwhelming support for the SAPD in comparison to the criminal base of Argonath.

The reason for this is because the SAPD are governed through a set of high level rules which involve delegating tasks throughout the divisions. The aspect of this hierarchy is strong, where malpractice is punished through relegation of ability and extended penalties such as demotion. It is a trusted system which is robust and where authority flourishes.

In severe contrast, the criminals have no overall hierarchy governing them under one branch of control. For example, there is no ruling body to control whether [GSF] or Inferno 9 [i9] are breaking the code of conduct for criminals. This is proven through the extension of warnings, kicks and bans within the criminal base which is significantly higher then its SAPD counterpart.

Whilst the above demonstrates clear one side RP on behalf of the SAPD, the criminals have accepted this as the natural lifecycle process in Argonath. The roleplay situation described above was conducted by Inferno 9 [i9] and took a significant while to prepare. Whilst I was not involved in the structural making, I can defend it for being considerate for all sides going forward.

A significant proportion of the criminal base work for intrinsic and extrinsic benefits as the SAPD kill criminals for cash. The proposition of withdrawing reward incentives for killing criminals would cause outrage among the SAPD base. As expected the same theme would be highlighted by the criminal base further distancing relations and leveraging the SAPD base above criminals. 

Going forward, to resolve this - one must consider the benefit of implementing a criminal governance body which is responsible for outlining the rules and regulations that criminals are expected to work along. It will form a similar format to the SAPD hierachy. These principles should not limit the ability, imagination or creativity of criminals.

In summary, Argonath is not consistent in terms of fairness in the context of RP. However there is scope to rectify the issue, we can make adjustments and initiate new methods of improving quality within the community.

[Fedrico]

well cops are not supposed to pay.

Why not? Criminals pay cops all the time, but the criminals can't make a buck from the cops by kidnapping.

Use the money the players lose every time they die to pay ransoms instead. Use a special account for it, and high-ranked cops or feds can use that account to pay ransoms until the account has been emptied (which is unlikely, because people die all the time).

[Altair_Carter]

Do nto build a RP situation with only the solution you want, in above, less vehicles to block would of meant more flexibility for both sides....

I'll argue about this point.

Why would someone want to build up a situation, which can give an advantage to the other side? That makes no sense at all.

We're all playing on an RP server, so why don't you roleplay like a real kidnapper?

And why dont you RP a real cop? If you have no solution, you, as cop, have to remember: SAFETY f**king FIRST. Not paying kidnappers just show how government has their force not caring at all about safety of their citizens. Ofcourse you'll Argue like "Wtf, but that's still the money!"

But this is a game! So what, they get money, that means your life is ruined? Reputation is f**ked? Then why don't you, after paying money and GETTING HOSTAGE SAFE, make an intervention plan and kill them then take money back? Or, atleast kill them, so the RP will be over, and they'll be considered as dead. And think that your money got burned before they died?

Same for FBI and SWAT, from times to times (i've seen it rapidly happening) when 207 situations result in a failure, it's your own fault you didn't cooperate with suspects! But it always result: "NOOOO, THEY ARE DAMN DMERS AND THEY DONT RP JUST KILL THE HOSTAGE, NONRP!!!!!!" Wow, are you girls or something...?

[Chase]

207s are over-rated and simply unoriginal.

All I have to say.

[9r2e5i3k]

The question is: Why do you [kidnappers] ask the COPS to pay?

AFAIK kidnappers would ask for money from someone wealthy in exchange for someone who's important for the rich guy. NOT ask the cops for a more or less random person.

You mafia guys should try kidnapping an i9 member (or vice versa) and ask for ransom, with the condition of not calling the cops. At least IMO there are more possible endings to such scenario than in the over-used "kidnap anyone and call cops for cash".

[Altair_Carter]

The question is: Why do you [kidnappers] ask the COPS to pay?

Because people are unoriginal.

This is where the "non-avoidable" situation comes. Since cops have to protect and secure citizens, they have no choice but to respond to the 207 call. Everyone will call it basically "Non-RP", but there's no such thing as "No non-RP" rule on our server.

Btw, what happened with "All 911 Kidnapp calls are prank calls" rule for cops?

[Jcstodds]

  Maybe I should add another F to my 3 F'S of RP

Fun
Fair
Feasible
Flexible!

(( I have been preaching this around ARPD forum a few times))
Kinda comes under 'fair' but it sounds good.

  My view on this, is that first of all at least one side must be willing to sacrifice their chance of 'winning' the RP scenario for a good RP. This tends to happen when the other side has showed imaginative, inventive roleplay. If a criminal has set up an event which is new and well thought out, cops should be more inclined to let the criminals 'win'. In an example of hostage situation, just ignore when they ask cops for money. Who should they ask? Family, friends, government (not cops), businessmen.
  But even when that happens, cops will still do the same. They will still try to 'win' the scenario regardless of RP involved.

One of my previous RPs: I set up a robbery of an ambulance for medical supplies. I shot one of my men so he would come. Whilst he came on scene, a cop showed up, being unhelpfully helpful. We were forced to kidnap the medic in order to escape the cops with out lives, not to mention we needed to get our friend healed. Once safe, our demands were simple: Let us go free, hostage will be released. Denied. Let us hide the stolen goods somewhere, hostage will be released. Denied. Track the boss (me) to hide the stolen goods, hostage released. Denied. Delete criminal records, hostage released. Accepted. Hostage was released, completely unharmed (we only needed him to heal our man and as a means to escape). As soon as he is out, we all get suspected and stormed. Then followed some investigations etc...

  Problem with that example, shows cops are more concerned on hunting criminals regardless of RP involved. Some situations where criminals outnumber and out gun cops (e.g. i9 taking over LS Docks). I recommend a tactic of just ignoring them, waiting for them to break up or enter transit (driving etc), making them much easier targets once they split up. Of course I am ignored by James Hunter who just tries to organise many assaults, getting lots of cops obliterated in hope of killing a few criminals killed.

  So where CBF has a good reasoning to be angry, the same thing can be said for both sides.

  To improve I think those sides might think about following:

Criminals: Need to have clear RP aims, clear goals for roleplaying a crime. Frank Hawk especially. Many of your RPs I have witnessed involves bringing a lot of criminals together which is admirable and I know is fun, but lacks any roleplay plan or goal, other than fighting cops. Put in the effort to plan and be creative. Criminals don't do crimes for the sake of doing them.

Cops: When criminals gone through the effort of setting up an RP plan, go along with it for the fun, for the ride. Cops should be looking out for fun and unexpected things to do to make people laugh and to make the experience better. Don't bother with the attention seekers, and have some fun with the criminals who have made a reason for their actions. If you like cop simulator, that's fine, but keep in mind the GTA spirit!



Regarding CBF's situation. I think I was there that day. I was reading the chat scroll whilst driving (not paying attention), and found myself near the hostage situation. I could have stopped by at the FBI cruiser to check what happened, but since I would have been shouted at for finding criminals with /area or some crap, I just left them to it. 

[Chase]

The question is: Why do you [kidnappers] ask the COPS to pay?

AFAIK kidnappers would ask for money from someone wealthy in exchange for someone who's important for the rich guy. NOT ask the cops for a more or less random person.

You mafia guys should try kidnapping an i9 member (or vice versa) and ask for ransom, with the condition of not calling the cops. At least IMO there are more possible endings to such scenario than in the over-used "kidnap anyone and call cops for cash".

Couldn't agree more. Kidnapping random people and calling COPS for ransom makes you look like a terrorist group, not a mafia or street gang. Why do you think the Somali pirates demand ransom from governments? Why do you think al-Qaeda demands ransoms from governments. Simple. They're terrorists. I know FBI still goes by the "Kidnappers call cops = no response" rule. IDK if SAPD still goes by it.

[9r2e5i3k]

@jcstodds' post
Well that's basically what I mean with the green text in my signature. Both sides should play for the fun of the chase/situation, not for showing who's better in combat, driving, wealth, or anything else for that matter.

[Frank_Hawk]

Inferno 9 [i9] held several large scale roleplay protests encouraging participation from a wider range of audience being civilians, criminals and SAPD officers. In turn, we subsequently lost all large scale protests through our own consent and logical sense. We displayed on many occasions the willingness to be flexible through our conduct, application and general attitude. For us, it's the factor of having fun, establishing a brotherhood and enjoy the game to it's full capacity.

This topic will serve as a arena for brainstorming some ideas in conjunction with your arguements. If you are a criminal/SAPD officer - please comment.

Jcstodds, thanks for the input - we are all improving on our roleplay ability and will as a result implement this into my own learning capacity.

[Oliver]

If you get shot at while trying to negotiate, then the kidnappers are just POORLY organised without any leadership at all (being a mafia "boss" doesn't count as leadership if you let your guys do whatever the fuck they want). In such cases the cops WILL win.

I remember a while back the SWAT team went off duty and took a whole bar hostage (about 15 hostages, 7 were killed on the spot). We had good leadership, but the cops outnumbered us 6 to 30. We died, but we took ALL the hostages with us (4 of them were actually killed BY the cops) and about 10 cops along with the hostages. Funny thing is, we were actually going to get paid by Jcstodds and we would've just attempted to escape. Sadly, Pancher gave an order for the cops to rush in, resulting in the death of every hostage and kidnapper.
Anyways, we didn't really 'contact' anyone, the cops just came by themselves.

A month ago five people including me (led by Jay Adams) kidnapped Vince when he was off duty and contacted a friend of Vince. We got paid 100k and everyone escaped.

Anyways, I haven't seen a properly roleplayed 207 take place in a long time. Every time it's just some unorgansid guys kidnapping an admin/high cop for money, which usually results in the kidnappers' deaths.
Post Merge: March 03, 2010, 07:45:38 pm

James Hunter who just tries to organise many assaults, getting lots of cops obliterated in hope of killing a few criminals killed.

He just does it to weed the freecops out. It's a really rare case where one of his team actually dies during an assault :roll:

[Caltson]

Guess how ALS stopped their lifetime. At the point when Argonath turned into a Cop'n Robbers server, no one cares to be in a 'limousine' service anymore, you all want the best car, pay 2 million for it, while 2 years back, you paid 500K for a limousine, wich was absolutely ALOT back then.

Events based on non-profit scale were popular, and you had way more citizens, people hiring gardeners and fighting neighboors. Non of those events were based on big profit, but hell.. They were fun.

If i try any of those situations on the current community, i get no response at all.
This is not a complaint, this is just how things are from my point of view.

[Devin]

Guess how ALS stopped their lifetime. At the point when Argonath turned into a Cop'n Robbers server, no one cares to be in a 'limousine' service anymore, you all want the best car, pay 2 million for it, while 2 years back, you paid 500K for a limousine, wich was absolutely ALOT back then.

Events based on non-profit scale were popular, and you had way more citizens, people hiring gardeners and fighting neighboors. Non of those events were based on big profit, but hell.. They were fun.

If i try any of those situations on the current community, i get no response at all.
This is not a complaint, this is just how things are from my point of view.

agreed, back in ALS, we had to get numerous members to put money together just to buy a single limo, and now people have so much money in their pockets just because its all they care about they are able to buy more than 7 limo's easy at 500k a piece, it used to be all RP and its turned into mainly money based.

It was one of the best decisions to close ALS when we did, it would have started to suffer when all these changes took place like the drop of most RP and the want for more money came for most. It was an unfortunate thing to remove ALS from Argonath but it had to be done for the best of the Companies Great Reputation.

[CBFasi]

I may actually remove the small $100 amount that cops get when they kill a non-surrendered criminal.
They actually get FINED for killing surrendered suspects..

So unless a cop JAILS they are making almost NO money (and if I change as I just mentioned most cops will earn nothing)
Yes cops get free weapons, the weaponequip used by SWAT, FBI maybe restricted even more, as for SAPD, they only get it in Pd's from high level officers, and this is not common, most of their of weapons are actually paid for, and worse they are lost every time they use /duty !!

Its not all the good news about cops.

I have already thought of even more restrictions to what they can do, all to try and make cops work better and be less abusive, but of course, criminals unless organised would suffer worse and moan more.


Hydra/Hunter use, today I spent a short time doing criminal vehicle disablement, most where succesful, one player moaned but then I gave him chance to see just how close he had come to actually blowing a Hydra out of the sky, he was a little less critical once he saw how vulnerable they are.

There are times when I have got rather annoyed/stressed and used the Hunter/Hydra to destress and I must reduce that usage for that reason.
If a criminal takes to the air, expect armed air reasponse, we are allowed to open fire without warning..

The Hydra and Hunter is NOT invincible, and I have died many a time at the controls when facing an organised team, even a combat shotgun can take them out ...


I do believe it was Gandalf that asked the cops NOT to pay for kidnappings, and that was because there was so many and we kept on asking for money, its was getting out of control.


Many players try to use real life sitautions and reasoning for doing things in the server, well sorry peps but SAMP is not that capable, there are many things you cannot do that would be possible in real life, and aactually in SAMP there are many things you can do that you cannot do in real life, its about knowing the game and what suits the limitations and gains.

Using those likitations to make a situation one sided could technically be called abuse of the SAMP scripts, not even our scripts, I hoep not to have to use that one on anyone but think how you would feel if on the disadvantaged side.


Situations should be looked at from both sides, would you be pissed off on the other side, if so, think about it....


Yes the server has headed towards a cops & robbers server, its players that have done this, you cant blame one side or the other, as it takes both sides to make it so, cops are bored without criminals and criminals would soon get bored if they were not chased.

To get out of this problem, maybe...

What we need is more players NOT doing illegal matters, not trying to make cops react, and actually trying to interact in a way that encourages others to do the same. 

Less law breakers, and cops will get bored and you will get left with the long termers as the other players just doing it because it appears active and busier may actually start to do other things.

Anyone noticed that at the times when there are no criminals around cops start to go off duty ???

If you keep playing criminals then expect law enforcement.... they exist side by side.

We need more civilian and fun rp !

[David_Omid]

I expect that from friday, there will be a LOT more firemen, so maybe fun civilian roleplay is coming...