Disgusting, Lack of Respect for Developers

[Stanley_Taylor]

Unless players accept that the developers always look at several angles before taking any action, they will continue to moan discuss.

This is why I'm rooting for a community helping board. It shows that the communication between the players and the development team is lacking and inappropiate. Concerned players need to have some form of acknowledgement by the development team and their arguments rebuttaled by them. If they don't have that, you can expect 'moaning' in this wide-open community. It would be a whole lot more efficient and effective when there would be players/admins speaking for the developers...

[Oliver]

I have in the discussion requested multiple times what criminals want as script support. The answers:
- a HQ (like you can find official criminal HQ in any city)
- gang cars (so they do not have to use their own / can let their member buy more weapons)
- weapon spawn (because they want free weapons too)

Criminal groups have a lot less rules to follow, and they should realise that with script support will come a number of rules for them to follow as well.

Yes, I understand that. Criminals can pretty much shoot anyone that even touches their car in the face while the SAPD has to go through a long procedure to even be able to hit the bloke with a nitestick.

I've seen things from a criminal side and by all means I do not wish for criminals to have official headquarters and script support since things are fine as they are now. Then again, I don't think SWAT and FBI deserve the script support they're getting at the moment. The idea by itself is good but those scripts are not needed since both groups were doing very well before any /weaponequip and gates to barricade themselves off from the outside world.
It's just my opinion though, you shouldn't count that as moaning.

[Sago]

Don't do criminal stuff if ya don't wanna get shot 

[Devin]

- weapon spawn (because they want free weapons too)

Although this point seems  valid and fair, I would personally be against that system, it would allow people to abuse script to recieve more weapons and they would literally camp at the weapon area and just get more and more while shooting cops.

If this was a Cops & Robbers setup of a server, this would be a great setup but in all due respect, it will cause more problems with abuse and people would just go there for free weapons constantly.

[Gandalf]

This is why I'm rooting for a community helping board. It shows that the communication between the players and the development team is lacking and inappropiate. Concerned players need to have some form of acknowledgement by the development team and their arguments rebuttaled by them. If they don't have that, you can expect 'moaning' in this wide-open community. It would be a whole lot more efficient and effective when there would be players/admins speaking for the developers...

While a community helping board might be set, the question is what exactly will people expect from it, and what will it bring for us.

For scripts we have the 'ideas' boards, where you often find repetition of either ideas from other servers, or rooting for causes that have been answered by developers as not going to be.

For explanation on the rules we have the 'ask the developers topic' which is not very active, yest questions are answered.

As for clarity regarding new ideas, our ideas are usually followed to some extent by other servers. There for bringing out ideas before they are realised is not a good thing.

What rests is what can be called 'moaning'.... discussing topics that will not change anything, will not bring new ideas but are just used for players to throw out their frustrations at times.

If you can find a good way to explain what you wish, please go ahead as discussion is not something we avoid.

[Stanley_Taylor]

While a community helping board might be set, the question is what exactly will people expect from it, and what will it bring for us.

For scripts we have the 'ideas' boards, where you often find repetition of either ideas from other servers, or rooting for causes that have been answered by developers as not going to be.

For explanation on the rules we have the 'ask the developers topic' which is not very active, yest questions are answered.

As for clarity regarding new ideas, our ideas are usually followed to some extent by other servers. There for bringing out ideas before they are realised is not a good thing.

What rests is what can be called 'moaning'.... discussing topics that will not change anything, will not bring new ideas but are just used for players to throw out their frustrations at times.

If you can find a good way to explain what you wish, please go ahead as discussion is not something we avoid.

Creating a script idea is a process that is currently formed by individuals. A community board who has room to work on the creation of script ideas would lead to more sophisticated ideas that have a bigger potential of being implemented. A good example is the gang weapons/cars spawn. This idea was introduced by a few players and the introduction was not worked out so well. In time it did, but this idea topic could easily gone to the second page where it ends up to be forgotton and brought up a few months later again by another player who usually doesn't even know the existence of that older topic. In short, players who are helped by a community board would bring better ideas and tasks would be better divided, not mentioning scripters would somewhat be relieved from their duties. I thought this was one of the main reasons Alfred introduced this idea. That's just scripts.
A community board could help bring new non-script things to the server. Such as financing and organizing events and role-play situations like setting up new legal businesses.
What was also on Alfred's mind, was how new players could be helped. There have been 'schools' where new players would be helped making their first steps. A board could do the same. I'm simply talking about explaing the rules, how to role play, how to set up teamspeak.
Many topics under the General Discussion board are considered moaning. I just look at it differently. Players want to share their thoughts on what they feel is something incorrect and I feel they should be listened to and not labelled as moaners. If Argonath doesn't listen to their players they loose touch with the community and the players loose interest. A community board with spokesmen for admins could resolve issues.
I'm sure you and Frank are well aware of Alfred's explanation so I don't think it needs further conversation at this point.

[Gandalf]

Creating a script idea is a process that is currently formed by individuals. A community board who has room to work on the creation of script ideas would lead to more sophisticated ideas that have a bigger potential of being implemented. A good example is the gang weapons/cars spawn. This idea was introduced by a few players and the introduction was not worked out so well. In time it did, but this idea topic could easily gone to the second page where it ends up to be forgotton and brought up a few months later again by another player who usually doesn't even know the existence of that older topic.

This exactly contradicts your idea, as in spite of clear requests for the players asking to work it out, it did not happen.
A similar project has been the 'gang war validations', which was thought up by the players, who eventually understood that the system is hard to work.

In short, players who are helped by a community board would bring better ideas and tasks would be better divided, not mentioning scripters would somewhat be relieved from their duties. I thought this was one of the main reasons Alfred introduced this idea. That's just scripts.

It would not relieve the scriptes, as they would have to come up with the implementation of the idea in such a way that players will not be able to find advantages that were not plaaned to happen. This is, because of the nature of the players, the main problem for scripters, and a community board will not change this.

A community board could help bring new non-script things to the server. Such as financing and organizing events and role-play situations like setting up new legal businesses.

This is also already present in the current boards.

What was also on Alfred's mind, was how new players could be helped. There have been 'schools' where new players would be helped making their first steps. A board could do the same. I'm simply talking about explaing the rules, how to role play, how to set up teamspeak.

As the community has no clear idea on which things to teach, a school of Argonath RP would be interesting,. however many players might object to new players following what would be taught there, as they follow their own rules.

Many topics under the General Discussion board are considered moaning. I just look at it differently. Players want to share their thoughts on what they feel is something incorrect and I feel they should be listened to and not labelled as moaners. If Argonath doesn't listen to their players they loose touch with the community and the players loose interest. A community board with spokesmen for admins could resolve issues.
I'm sure you and Frank are well aware of Alfred's explanation so I don't think it needs further conversation at this point.

Argonath has always listened to the players, and will continue to do so. However listening to the players is not equal to following the players.

[Stanley_Taylor]

This exactly contradicts your idea, as in spite of clear requests for the players asking to work it out, it did not happen.
A similar project has been the 'gang war validations', which was thought up by the players, who eventually understood that the system is hard to work.

Doesn't how the gang weapons/cars spawn topic went, exactly show why a community helping center would be benificial? I don't see how it contradicts the idea. Argonath didn't have that a community helping center then. Also, there are different opinions as to why the 'gang war validations' failed. But everybody can agree that not all the gangs were applying the same rules. Point being that the community should spend more time as to creating ideas together that would serve the interest of all groups.

As the community has no clear idea on which things to teach, a school of Argonath RP would be interesting,. however many players might object to new players following what would be taught there, as they follow their own rules.

Could be something good for clans.

Argonath has always listened to the players, and will continue to do so. However listening to the players is not equal to following the players.

Well you have to agree with me that since Aragorn spoke of leaving, nearly everybody who disagrees with someone who comes up with an idea is called a moaner, without using the sake of argument. I wonder if this is praised or not  :conf:

[Pandalink]

"Weapons are so expensive!"

"Cops always win!"

"I can't f**king get away from these Cops!"

None of these are criminal concerns, stop deluding yourself that we're moaners when you need to look in the mirror, JDC.

A similar project has been the 'gang war validations', which was thought up by the players, who eventually understood that the system is hard to work.

The gangwar validations system was flawed from the start because I am not going to update it forever. Whenever I take a break from Argonath, the gangwar system breaks down. This should not happen.
If we had a web based PHP/other script that did the validation system on its own, it would work flawlessly. However, I do not yet know any web-based programming languages with which to implement it.

[JDC]

None of these are criminal concerns, stop deluding yourself that we're moaners when you need to look in the mirror, JDC.

What about the numerous incidents of known Criminals moaning the very things I quoted?

[Pandalink]

Find me a single quote of the things you mentioned.

[JDC]

"Cops have everything ffs!" or "Cops have too many advantages!"

petition to allow suspects on motorcycles

Cops get everything on this server. There's even scripts to ensure that they win against the criminals.

Supported!

Rocket Launcher or more motorycyles!

NO! Enough advantages to cops already! This is going to be ridiculous if it happens.

Cop idea

Cops already got to many advantages

Yes they do cops get f**king free Deagle when we gotta spend tons to get some.

Also, if you look in the You want fairness? topic by David, you will notice Grzesiek is one of the few, if not the only one who attempted to portray both sides as balanced, as opposed to dozens of moaners who take time to make Cop Advantages list as long as possible and Criminal Disadvantages list as short as possible, as an indirect way of saying "We can't f*cking get away" or "Cops always win".

[Pandalink]

And yet none of the things you quoted relate in any strong way to the statements you posted. The things you quoted are also all true, but thats irrelevant.

To break it down:
:: None of them complain about weapon prices.
:: None of them complain about " cops always winning".
:: None of them complain about not being able to escape from cops.

[Stanley_Taylor]

Also, if you look in the You want fairness? topic by David, you will notice Grzesiek is one of the few, if not the only one who attempted to portray both sides as balanced, as opposed to dozens of moaners who take time to make Cop Advantages list as long as possible and Criminal Disadvantages list as short as possible, as an indirect way of saying "We can't f*cking get away" or "Cops always win".

If Grzesiek would've attempted to portray both sides as balanced, he would've repudiated and I don't think he did. Weird how an admin makes it sound like that would be a good thing to do...
The moaners you speak off, included not only criminals, but also admins and cops. Almost everybody tried their best to make a list with advantages they knew. I know this comes as a shock to you, because of your inability to place yourself in others, but nobody shares all the same experiences as you. Everybody has their own beliefs and the sooner you realize that, the better. It doesn't do Argonath any good to have admins calling players 'moaners' for something they honestly believe in would work better for Argonath.
I bet you really hate the new changes. You're not moaning about it to the leaders right?  :evil:

[JDC]

And yet none of the things you quoted relate in any strong way to the statements you posted. The things you quoted are also all true, but thats irrelevant.

To break it down:
:: None of them complain about weapon prices.
:: None of them complain about " cops always winning".
:: None of them complain about not being able to escape from cops.

I only searched in the SA:MP Ideas board and nowhere else.

If Grzesiek would've attempted to portray both sides as balanced, he would've repudiated and I don't think he did. Weird how an admin makes it sound like that would be a good thing to do...
The moaners you speak off, included not only criminals, but also admins and cops. Almost everybody tried their best to make a list with advantages they knew. I know this comes as a shock to you, because of your inability to place yourself in others, but nobody shares all the same experiences as you. Everybody has their own beliefs and the sooner you realize that, the better. It doesn't do Argonath any good to have admins calling players 'moaners' for something they honestly believe in would work better for Argonath.
I bet you really hate the new changes. You're not moaning about it to the leaders right?  :evil:

Not able to place myself in the shoes of others?

I'm sorry but I laughed out loud at that statement of yours. I have also experienced life as a Criminal, since I did crimes on my UC Account in order to study them (it was in one of those incidents as well where I learned that hitting a moving car in a pursuit with melee attacks would do a better job than shooting it from on top, since I shook off 2 Freecops and 1 Cadet from the roof of my car, all of who failed to stop me by shooting with their guns, only to have my car blown up by a lone Freecop who used melee attacks), so you can stop your "JDC, you're a one-sided biased moaner" bullshit now.

We have people going around pointing at and ranting about how utterly unfair and hard the system is for Criminals, when it in fact is a lot easier for them as opposed to the RS3 scripts (every day, we have about a dozen Criminals escaping and dozens of Cop deaths, which would not happen if Cops really had a vastly superior advantage), not to mention others who emphasize Cop Advantages instead of trying to search for more Criminal Advantages (they could choose to plan their escape routes and make up backup plans for in case something goes wrong so the Cops won't catch them, but instead they run headlong into the cops chasing them and get obliterated as a result, then moan about it), so I call them moaners for a good reason.

I understand that everyone has their own beliefs, so I think twice before every post I make regarding a sensitive subject.

If you continue to throw such bullshit at me in a close-minded manner, it would be your problem, not mine.