Evaluation of regulars and veterans in order to make a sophisticated community.

[Mafs]

The i9 tag seems to be worshipped on this server, all because Frank throws money about.

Shit you nailed it right there..
i9 is being promoted using admin resources by doing paydays of for example: $9999, or just $9. I don't mind paydays, hell who does? But indeed, using it to promote i9 is a no go if you ask me.

[Lucky]

Y'all jealous.

[EminemRulez]

Shit you nailed it right there..
i9 is being promoted using admin resources by doing paydays of for example: $9999, or just $9. I don't mind paydays, hell who does? But indeed, using it to promote i9 is a no go if you ask me.

It's not an [i9:PAYDAY], it's an "Economic Stimulus" - I think you're mixing the fact of Frank beeing now a  Community leader with the fact of he having a RP group, I9.
I've sponsored $999 paydays while I was in Inferno 9 - mostly paid after winning random lottos :p
For example, you wish to promote your group and you figure the best way to do it It's through a payday.
Let's imagine the group is: Group12, Tag: [G12]  - You can sponsor a $1212 payday or even a $12 one but if it was [G10] would you blame admins of promoting [G10] when they do a $1000 payday?
I think it has nothing to do with

RegardS

[Frank_Hawk]

Hold your horses!  :razz:

First of all, let me make it clear that my community leading role strongly differentiates from my membership in Inferno 9 which as far as I'm concerned does not conflict, overlap or prove incompatible. In relations to my influence in Inferno 9, I vacated the Inferno 9 leadership position for other talent (Jimmy Cueno) to takeover and run whilst I prioritised my workload in favour of the greater community. All decisions made in Inferno 9 are based on a group votes for which this proposition was not exempt from.

Inferno 9 is not or never has been an official group. I'm not sure where this rumour came from from but I can confirm it is completely untrue although I wish it was.  Whilst it may be unique from other groups in consensus, management and tradition it does not benefit from any 'third party hand'.

In the defence of Dwayne, he is enthusiastic, committed to self development and to producing work of a high standard. He works very well with the rest of Inferno 9 and brings a refreshing outlook (being new) from which we all may benefit from. After his initiation period at Inferno 9, he was appointed deputy-leader where Jimmy started to give him responsibility for some aspects within the Inferno 9. In all observations, he is demonstrating a real passion and positive flare for continuous improvement which others may benefit from looking at.

Looking at the original post, I do not agree with it to a certain extent because it was wrong to post it at such an early stage of development. A majority agree, as highlighted through the feedback on this topic.

From what I gather in Dwayne's post, he wants to primarily focus on group leaders who have track records for sustainability and positive contributions. From which he and other interested parties can collate responses in aim of setting trends, scope for improvement and ultimately a submission of results to the owners for evaluation. In terms of ethical consideration, it should use an approach which is operated on a volunteered basis with no penalties imposed for not participating. To avoid bias and unethical adjustments, it would be in the interest of the project to engage a wide audience and controllers which can involve other group leaders.

Whilst I say this, the idea should be calibrated with community input under SA:MP ideas. From my view, this project would complement the yet to be announced A.R.U.N project well. This should be open to discussion where all contributions are welcome in aim of improving the idea.

In relations to the comments about Inferno 9 members becoming moderators as a direct result of my appointment are untrue. All decisions regarding the appointment of moderators are strictly made on a team basis.

Summary:
- There is no conflict between two distinct roles
- Inferno 9 is not or never has been an official group
- Whilst Dwayne is new, he brings an refreshing outlook
- This topic has been misunderstood due to lack of experience and misrepresentation
- This idea should be discussed on SA:MP ideas board
- No decision regarding Inferno 9 moderators/admins have been made on a sole basis.

Frank should not let others use his posts.

He brainstormed this idea independently, which he also posted on his own merits.  :razz:

Dwayne, would you like me to move this topic to SA:MP ideas? 

[Mafs]

So you are saying Frank did all paydays out of his own pocket?
And no, it is not called an [i9:PAYDAY] just like Hitler didn't say he was gassing Jews in cold blood. See where I'm going with this?

[EminemRulez]

So you are saying Frank did all paydays out of his own pocket?
And no, it is not called an [i9:PAYDAY] just like Hitler didn't say he was gassing Jews in cold blood. See where I'm going with this?

Of course most of them it wasn't from his pocket, but maybe the admin who did the payday (which weren't possibly Frank) didn't think he would be "promoting" i9...

Regards.

[Maxy]

Anyone can watch players, as long as they don't imply that they are admins or special in any way because they are watching.

Besides, you are always watching and judging people based on their actions simply by playing.

Why do you need to remember RS2 to judge people? Just another case of a big ego just because you're a veteran IMO..

Yeah, but I'm not relaying that information to the developers. What he is saying, even in the topic is that he wants to "Examine" or watch, judge, whatever, the veterans to get opinions. To make a "Sophisticated Community" implying that we are doing something wrong, or that it isn't already sophisticated.

It's not a case of me having a big ego, but I don't really know how much a person who has been here significantly less time than me can tell me how to better play on this server and be more "sophisticated".

Argonath is about fun, about doing what you want and about roleplaying to an extent, but it is definitely not about being sophisticated. The fact that something like this is being thought of shows me that under the cover of being helpful, he is trying to reshape the player base in HIS image, so he can have a more comfortable playing environment.

Subsequently the players will look up to him and respect him more, because he remade them the way he wanted to. So what this looks like to me, is a manipulative attempt to make the players follow him.

It once again shows young I9's elitist attitude that so many people who have ACTUALLY been here long enough to call themselves the finest, have come to resent.

I speak for a large portion of the groups when I say that I9 is a young group, that should perhaps focus on it's OWN improvement before trying to improve the whole server.
Post Merge: May 06, 2010, 07:42:08 pm

So you are saying Frank did all paydays out of his own pocket?
And no, it is not called an [i9:PAYDAY] just like Hitler didn't say he was gassing Jews in cold blood. See where I'm going with this?

inb4 "OMG U R SAYING FRANK IS HITLER"

[Gandalf]

The idea of Dwayne reflects the idea of (among others) Frank that we should create a citizen council, where regular players can be represented as well as new ones to give and promote ideas. It may have been posed a bit different, but it is a similar idea as has been proposed behind closed doors.

The idea of giving players the chance to tell, in a contributing and positive way, what they see and wish to change is something that we are not blind to.

HOWEVER.
The idea should be organised by the developers and leaders, not by players.
For the I have a very strong reason, which comes from my background of no-nonsense management.
If you create or open a group where ideas, irritations and suggestions for the future are discussed, you have to give this group a real and clear contributing role.
In modern management and politics you often see that there is a group created with no other use or intention then to let people vent their feelings. The group has no realistic contribution, however because people could write something they believe tehy have made one.  On Argonath such a group will not be created by the developers as it is totally useless.
If we will create something, it wil have a use and a realistic chance of making a contributions. A.R.U.N. is one of those thngs, which is why it is supported.

Yesterday I discussed with Romeo (yeah shocking, I know), and I told him one of the reasons for the current criminals vs cops debate.
In our original scripts and designs, there were two roles. Cop and Non-cop.
If you take ur current scripts and you compare the part of cop and of non-cop, you will see that the non-cop support is larger as the cop. However over time there are not two roles on server but three. Cop - citizen - criminal.
It will take a better planning and adaptation to that model to make the three roles equal. For this we need to shoot some ideas at the trusted leaders of the official groups, as they are the ones who can give answers on the usefullness, and that will be the main role of A.R.U.N. groups department.

Instead of a citizens council, we have the SA:MP ideas forum. This is a place where people can shoot in random ideas. As you can see, 90% of the ideas are similar or exactly the same, and are countered by our players or scripters.
However the 10% remaining ideas are examined and checked to be useful and feasible. From this 10% in the end only 1% willl make it, leaving 99% of the ideas forum as uselesss junk, and giving the impression that we are not really loking at them.

If we make a citizens council, it should not have the same fate as the SA:MP ideas area, being 99% useless and 1% contributing. We do not want empty promises and sitting in meetings that change nothing. And we certainly will not ever give the control over the direction and vision of Argonath to the players.
We value our players and wish to listen to their complaints. In many cases we see far ahead of them, however that does not mean we should stop listening. The 1% of SA:MP ideas has proven as valuable as contributions from developers and scripters, make no mistake. However we are the ones who decide which 1% is useful, and that will remain.

When the time is right, and we can find a realistic use, we can make a citizens council. Until that time everyone can bring in reports and ideas, and we will thank people for their effort. But do not expect more than 1% to be found back in  our sctipts, direction and vision.

[newguy]

I think we all know that people who don't wana be nice with others will never become one,even by force.So,instead of speaking,let's do something! i9 already began taking actions to get the community a bit better than it was,and we can already see results,although i think they are quite minor.What i want to say,is that words may help,but they do half the job.Actions do the other half.Let's do something about this instead of shouting our mouths off. Anyone disagree?

-Hwaldar Richards

[Brad.]

Before i9, there was nothing like this, yet we had 100+ people on the server, we got official status, everything was going good.

i9 comes and everyone stopped helping new players, 15+ of our 100 players are AFK'ing for the extreme ammount of paydays, give it a week and money will be useless.   Before i9 came, there was no need for these "examinations" - so why should they be neccisary now?

But, I'm only one voice, if these do take part, I plead that you make sure everyone you are asking knows they do not have to answer, and don't ask them a thing untill they confirm they want to share this information, as I know some people will just answer because the questions were thrown on them.

[Kizzu]

Hold on your Horses FFS...

I Like the idea but every citzen who is interessed in this idea should be apart of this...

I9 Shouldnt be involved on this...

[EminemRulez]

Before i9, there was nothing like this, yet we had 100+ people on the server, we got official status, everything was going good.

i9 comes and everyone stopped helping new players, 15+ of our 100 players are AFK'ing for the extreme ammount of paydays, give it a week and money will be useless.   Before i9 came, there was no need for these "examinations" - so why should they be neccisary now?

But, I'm only one voice, if these do take part, I plead that you make sure everyone you are asking knows they do not have to answer, and don't ask them a thing untill they confirm they want to share this information, as I know some people will just answer because the questions were thrown on them.

Are you blaming [i9] for all argonath problems? Not helping new players? Have you EVER hanged out with them, before you talk, you should do a research, then you would know how wrong your post is.

[Brad.]

Are you blaming [i9] for all argonath problems? Not helping new players? Have you EVER hanged out with them, before you talk, you should do a research, then you would know how wrong your post is.

Did you think there? or are you just seeing red?

I'm not saying i9 caused the problems, I'm saying i9 questioned them, and we all lived happily until they were questioned.

[EminemRulez]

Did you think there? or are you just seeing red?

I'm not saying i9 caused the problems, I'm saying i9 questioned them, and we all lived happily until they were questioned.

And you're unhappy because of i9 - It's simply a group...
They're free to do whatever they want, as long as they keep Argonath rules, and so are you.
It's not up to you to be judge them.

[Mafs]

Before i9, there was nothing like this, yet we had 100+ people on the server, we got official status, everything was going good.

i9 comes and everyone stopped helping new players, 15+ of our 100 players are AFK'ing for the extreme ammount of paydays, give it a week and money will be useless.   Before i9 came, there was no need for these "examinations" - so why should they be neccisary now?

But, I'm only one voice, if these do take part, I plead that you make sure everyone you are asking knows they do not have to answer, and don't ask them a thing untill they confirm they want to share this information, as I know some people will just answer because the questions were thrown on them.

Holy shit dude, you're totally right on this. However a week? Nah..
But indeed, ask one how to earn money on the server, 9/10 of people will say payday/lotto.

The current lotto count is on something like 2500 or so.. which is ALOT!
If every lotto would be just 20K that would be 50million pumped into the 'economy', so far.