No force rp.

[Void]

If you speak to any Argonath Player from any time era, you will see that values have degenerated in the Argonath Community as a whole, which is why conservatives seek the restoration of the olden state of values, but not necessarily at the cost of forbidding progress. Our agenda is positive progress through restoration of the positive values at their old scale- which is why we try to preserve those values.

True, progress is happening in Argonath... but much of that progress has been regress, technically. In the past, Argonath was not a community filled with strife and moaning, yet when you look at the present, the question "Is this even progress?" comes to mind.

The scripts and other features got better, but at what cost? The values of the players.

You were from the olden times as well, Jubin. You should be one of those most able to see the regress that has taken place widely throughout the community.

And lastly... the term "Conservatives" refers to those who seek the preservation of old values (again said)... the more appropriate term would be "faction", not "gang".

No sorry.
2007 was a FUN year for me. So many new people, regardless commands, unknown territory those people made me feel like a veteran there.
Such simplicity, friendliness.

You cannot seek preservation of old values while society goes forward. Were you here in 2006? at 2007? No. IC/OOC was present at 2007, except we didn't have people bitch around that RP is dieing, it sucks and has degenerated.

You(Conservatives) are not a gang or a creed. You are people who cannot find themselves in RP and cannot think of their identity.
You do not posses a skill to blend, and that's the truth.
Sure, now say you can blend in, but I ask you,why do you disrespect around then?

Who would play the server when you restore these old values? Do you know that this server lives of self support, visits and site clicks?
You cannot have site clicks, etc without PLAYERS

One more thing JDC: Regardless of your time zone, I never see you online, and you talk like this?

Have in mind that even old veterans replied negatively to your posts here.
Now I see why people compare you to Hitler.

I don't have anything against you, but your head is stuck up in regressing the server, your eyes are blinded.
Argonath Vision are PLAYERS.

When the Romans made the constitution, would it be a "constitution" if Romans didn't respect it and go by their own rules?

[Jubin]

True, progress is happening in Argonath... but much of that progress has been regress, technically. In the past, Argonath was not a community filled with strife and moaning, yet when you look at the present, the question "Is this even progress?" comes to mind.

I disagree with the conservatives point of view. I say current Argonath community isn't filled with strife's and moaners. What I think my opponent is thinking is that there are more moaners than in the past. What is not taken into consideration is the size of the community has also increased.

[JDC]

You cannot seek preservation of old values while society goes forward. Were you here in 2006? at 2007? No. IC/OOC was present at 2007, except we didn't have people bad girl around that RP is dieing, it sucks and has degenerated.

Preservation of old values- wRONg. The values we seek to preserve are the ones responsible for turning Argonath into such a successful community today (unlike others which ended up developing chaotic players in general and shit-corrupt administrations).

As for the second part about people b*tching... it proves my point that the progress of the server came with degeneration as well.

You(Conservatives) are not a gang or a creed. You are people who cannot find themselves in RP and cannot think of their identity.
You do not posses a skill to blend, and that's the truth.
Sure, now say you can blend in, but I ask you,why do you disrespect around then?

Oh, I can blend. I can take on your IC/OOC principles and any other damned style of RP for that matter- and excel at doing them.

I just desire not to... just because we could, it does not mean we should.

As for lack of RP ability and identity crises- you are mistaken. I very well know what my aims, agenda, and identity are and I certainly consider myself as another accomplished roleplayer, having learned from real Argonath Veterans even before I came to SA:MP.

Who would play the server when you restore these old values? Do you know that this server lives of self support, visits and site clicks?
You cannot have site clicks, etc without PLAYERS

Let's try the inverse question.

Who would not want to play on a server where there is far less moaning, b*tching, flaming, hostility, strife, chaos, and other similar concepts?

One more thing JDC: Regardless of your time zone, I never see you online, and you talk like this?

Many people have seen me online... maybe we just have really different timezones.
Mine is CET+8 or so, meaning most of my administrative work is carried out during what people call the "unholy hours".

Have in mind that even old veterans replied negatively to your posts here.
Now I see why people compare you to Hitler.

Have in mind as well that all veterans do not necessarily have similar views. I have been both acclaimed and criticized not only by old veterans, but by players from all experience levels.

If people compare me to Hitler because I stand up for Argonath and its Owners- so be it.

I don't have anything against you, but your head is stuck up in regressing the server, your eyes are blinded.
Argonath Vision are PLAYERS.

The Argonath Vision is not the players... those are two different things.
The Argonath Vision is a set of values (or a creed) set down by the Owners as a guide for the players and as the agenda by which they wished to progress the server.

How well did it turn out? We certainly don't have 8,000 players for no reason- few communities in GTA Multiplayer have achieved that, if any others have.


Now, let me come to a general conclusion.

Your perception of Conservatives certainly is a mistaken one... a very mistaken one.
You happen to be one of those people who conclude that conservatives seek to halt all progress for the server and start a regression.

Well, you are wRONg.

A conservative seeks what is good for the community by advocating the restoration of positive values found in the past and opposing the proliferation of negative values which is happening in the present.

I have a question for you, and I'd like you to answer it.
There are two communities that started out in the same manner, at the same time, with the same values which kept hostility in its rightful place- outside.

Over time, Community 1 lost more and more of its values through eventual deterioration until it ended up in a state of de facto anarchy, its servers ruled by hostility and its players constantly targeting each other.

On the other hand, Community 2 started down the same eventual path as Community 1, but decided to preserve its values and succeeded in controlling hostilities, leading to a more peaceful environment that still attracted players.

Both communities achieved progress, yes. But in your eyes, which of the two communities achieved better progress?

(For those who are wondering about any actual comparisons- this is a fictitious example. If this were actual, Argonath would still be on the midpoint between the comparison communities' beginnings and ends.)


Also, for anyone who thinks that pro-Argonath speeches are a form of asslick that would get you to high places: I'm just a moderator.


As for Jubin (who posted while I was writing this post):

I believe that there has always been strife and moaning present in this community- yet it was just not as rampant in the past. Let's make a simple comparison:

100 players and 10 moaners.
8000 players and 800 moaners.

The intensity of the moaning has increased in the same manner as the player mass- however, the proportion remains the same.

[Altair_Carter]

And lastly... the term "Conservatives" refers to those who seek the preservation of old values (again said)... the more appropriate term would be "faction", not "gang".

Clearly you don't match them.

[Void]

There's my point.

You blame IC/OOC for everything that happens here. Far less bitching, moaning, flaming?
Do you see any less of that now? Its just because people use IC/OOC?


Ever occurred to you that people have a damn personality/Needs/desires and they urge to follow them.
There you see the conflict of interest. Not in the IC/OOC.
Which leads to this:

I disagree with the conservatives point of view. I say current Argonath community isn't filled with strife's and moaners. What I think my opponent is thinking is that there are more moaners than in the past. What is not taken into consideration is the size of the community has also increased.

You are not an accomplished role player.
An accomplished role player respects everything RPed in the give moment. He adapts.

You were learned not to use IC/OOC. I was learned to respect everything and adapt, improvise and overcome. That is RP.
Not a set of rules/patterns that should be followed and used/not used.
I never told about your RP ability. Its all about your RP perception, which is narrow.

"....I can take your IC/OOC principles ......"

First of, they are not mine. Thousands of people here use it, you just cannot perceive how many.

By your logic, Argonath is an established community with over 8000 registered accounts because of its free RP standards?
So that means there was no fixative rules and IC/OOC /RP standards set before this given moment now(2010)?

People were attracted to this community by other PLAYERS, not because they saw Argonath vision.
So that makes Argonath Vision = PLAYERS.

[Leon.]

Let's overthrow the government and go back to primitive living in the wild, because there were no international wars back then.
Is that what you're trying to say, JDC?

[Void]

Let's overthrow the government and go back to primitive living in the wild, because there were no international wars back then.
Is that what you're trying to say, JDC?

No, don't tease him.
Let him express himself.

[Jamal]

Its funny JDC i offer a truce and thats the first time you didn't reply to me? Oh yeah thats right, you just here to post against me.

You can't claim this time of the server is bad because there's some moaners. Your logic is fail. The scripts increased in goodness, what brought more moaners was more popularity. You think a 140+ server daily can have the same attitude as a 26 player server??? hahaha your crazy.

You make it seem like your time was so great and mighty but obviously not otherwise it would have been kept that way by the server owners. Obviously there was a want for expansion which is what happened, a massive expansion because of the increase in script quality. You trying to say you didn't expect moaners out of the thousands who registered?

[JDC]

I only reply to posts I find logical.
 
As for Phantom...
 
I do and have always respected the freedom of players to roleplay however and whatever they want. (serious cop, a potato, Jack The Ripper, etc)
 
What I NEVER had any respect for was and is people bringing in rules from other servers because many of them failed there.
 
Those are two very different things, believe them or not.
(For people not intelligent enough to understand this part- it's like comparing Islam with the assholes who blow themselves up with bombs in buildings while shouting "ALLAH HU AKBAR!")
 
As for the word "your"... I used it in the plural tense. Keep in mind it is not an article that is used to address only one subject.
 
And for the Argonath Vision...
It is true that players were attracted by other players.
 
However, the first players who came here did not just stay simply because there were other players.
 
They stayed because they saw that the Administration promoted equality and friendship among players.
 
They stayed because they saw that the server did not have a shit-corrupt admin team unlike some servers where you were permbanned on the spot if you disagreed with anything the Admin said and where you could buy admin rights with your PayPal.
 
They stayed because they liked the environment the developers shaped in the direction of the Argonath Vision.
 
Players can attract new players anywhere, but you don't get a set of fair and equal principles just anywhere. In short, they made this community so fun and awesome that even our enemies can't get enough of us.
 
In the end, The Vision is still the main reason why the players began to attract others at an increasing rate that continues to this day.
Vision = Creed
Vision =/= Players
Vision = Good Server = More Players.
See the difference?
 
Might have missed some topics, am posting with a mobile phone so my view of forums is limited.

[Jamal]

You lose, JDC. I put you in a corner so you use an excuse 'I only reply to posts logical' Whether you think it was logical or not you aren't going yo answer because you know i'm right.

[JDC]

You honestly think YOU, Jamal, can best ME in a rational argument?
 
I can argue with you all day and be the right one, but I'm starting to question my decisions to waste energy on pathetic trolls when I can spend my time replying to much more dignified people such as Phantom and Altair.
 
Keep dreaming.

[Void]

Vision =/= Players
Vision = Good Server = More Players.

Server cannot play by itself.


Vision = Good server
What is a good server? A server with good players.
Good players = those who obey rules and conducts.

Players can attract new players anywhere, but you don't get a set of fair and equal principles just anywhere.

When you enter the server, what do you do first?
Check the rules and see if they are correct?
Meet people, see the possibilities and ask what are the rules?

Do you stay on a server because rules are good or because of the players who enforce them?

I want you to realize, there isn't a good administrator or a server, without good, obeying players.

From lagged 1.1b to 0.3c we've been through many moaners and good, admire worthy people.
You cannot ban a principle which is among the players, since long time ago. You can only ban the individuals.

Principle from 2007 =/= ban
Individuals who abuse it = ban

Don't generalize. 

[Leon.]

No, don't tease him.
Let him express himself.

Okay.

My bad, JDC.

A conservative seeks what is good for the community by advocating the restoration of positive values found in the past and opposing the proliferation of negative values which is happening in the present.

Even to go as far as discrimination, generalization, and pushing the venom?

IC/OOC is for people without a brain.
/end

[JDC]

The owners can disallow any principle at will, by power. If RON chose to ban IC/OOC from Argonath, not even the Community Leaders can question it.
 
As for Leon...
Such statements have even been invoked by owners themselves, in harsher forms. (I.E: IC/OOCers should f*ck off -Aragorn)
This does not mean though that I condone every incident in which a conservative makes such harsh statements about anything, but IC/OOC is a particular kind of subject, so do not be suprised if the Owners and the people who stand by them speak out openly against it in a controversial manner.

[Void]

The owners can disallow any principle at will, by power. If RON chose to ban IC/OOC from Argonath, not even the Community Leaders can question it.

It is a good tactics if you want to get rid of the players.
Don't you see you must think in the future.

If you're stuck in the past, your future won't be bright.