Lets get things straight, Version 2

[Gandalf]

Yesterday Chuck Norris posted a topic, and this was seen by some people as an attack on one of the official groups. While it were members of a specific group that caused the topic, the frustration and direction was not towards that group. It is the general behaviour that causes trouble.

So lets get some things straight.

About Admins:
Our admins applied voluntarily to keep order on the server they were, and to a large extent still are, players who were selected for being friendly, responsible and mostly outside any direct conflicts. They devote their time online to keeping players followin the rules, and while doing this have to give up their time to play.
For their efforts they are labled asskissers, abusers, and almost any punishment is followed up by a long discussion of the punished player who is completely convinced that he was treated wrong, as only all other players break server rules. If the player happens to be in a group, regardless of which, this multiplies by the number of group members online, as all try to support.
Admins are taught to be friendly, and treat players with respect. However as they are getting little in return, they become both unwilling to punish regulars and tired of doing their job. Ever noticed how admins become less active over time ? It is the stress of their job, which makes them lose fun in being on server.

About players:
When we see many players complain about how there is nothing to do for them or that we do not create opportunities, that shows something we feared would happen a long time ago. Why have we always fought against RLRP servers ? Not because we do not like realism, or because we want to be different at all cost. The reason is that these servers kill imagination and replace it with robot-like play.
The idea of RP is not so type commands and get money (or rnaks or houses or whatever) from it. The idea of RP is to use your imagination and creativity to have fun. As players are stuck in their role, they become bored and start fooling around. Then they blame the community for not providing what they want or not listening. In reality any player can make money if they would just see scripts as something supportive instead of leading. There are 200 skins, yet players choose to use only 2 or three to fit them.
The hunt for status and posessions should be replaced by the drive to make friends and communicate... that is what RP should be about.

About developers:
People think that we do not want changes or create new things because of being against them or their ideas. Nothing can be less true.
If you want to know why I am mostly UC as freecop, it is not because I like to be a cop but to be able to switch to spectate any player once suspected. That way I can see the interaction that happens, and this has led to cops being banned from their job as much as criminals being punished. If you are one of those who think the public chat spams, then try to think of the added reading of all radio channels, admin chat, police chat and the flood of PM once people know an UC admin is online. When I turn off options and are in a single radio channel, I am constantly checking if the server is frozen as I do not see any chat moving...
When we made the scripts for Argonath, we based them on the MTA:VC idea. This means that we counted on two groups, cops and non-cops. During the development of SA:MP a new group emerged : criminals. As in our original plans criminals were just standard citizens, who occasionally would commit a crime, we have not made a lot of thought on filling that role.
Adding this in to the current scripts will be hard, as you may have noted we are already at a point where a small improvement to one thing can lead to bugs in many others. There for we are planning to develop the RS5 with the criminal role added as a choice, including options that will hopefully make the groups happy.

[Crysis_Warhead]

Criminals will never change, deal with it.
Cops will never change as well, deal with it.

That's how I see it, else you want to try something new..

[Aksel]

Criminals will never change, deal with it.
Cops will never change as well, deal with it.

That's how I see it, else you want to try something new..

Unless change is done, yes, "faggot"

[midget]

It's funny how you made this to make the admins answering in the previous "let's get thing straight" thread not so evil.

We know you/admins made that thread as a threat to us/other criminals out there.

You're saying that you don't want RLRP ,right?  Why then make commands/scripts that makes it harder for a criminal to Role-play as a real "gangster" or "mafia" For example you want all the criminals to /gu when cops are around... you said you didn't want RLRP??
hmm maybe I'm wrong, but let's take a look at some of your quotes to be sure,
"You are the one making up rules here. No it is not allowed to have people join the server and take part in an ongoing situation."

This is when your answering Wash, So the people who log in are not able to RP with his own gang/mob...great
Odd, considering they shouldn't be "dead" they should be alive and they should be able to RP...just as you said yourself.
Oh wait...I found another interesting Quote...
When Wash said "There is no rule that states that you have to 'roleplay' your way into a situation to help a friend.."

You answered "There is"..
I don't get it...are we allowed or not allowed?..
And when he gave you a RP and asked is it necessary you said "Not needed, but tell me, why would this friend head to LSPD as suspect other than to give up ?"
Like you're hiding from the question...Why drag LSPD into it? Let's say he's at LV heading towards the ocean for a swim if it makes it easier for you to answer.

And last but not least you said "In that case I think the price criminals pay is not high enough. Perhaps remove not just weapons but house and business as well ? After all you are dead then killed...."
So now you're changing the fact that you're not an RLRP server to one where you are?


 

[newguy]

It's funny how you made this to make the admins answering in the previous "let's get thing straight" thread not so evil.

We know you/admins made that thread as a threat to us/other criminals out there.

You're saying that you don't want RLRP ,right?  Why then make commands/scripts that makes it harder for a criminal to Role-play as a real "gangster" or "mafia" For example you want all the criminals to /gu when cops are around... you said you didn't want RLRP??
hmm maybe I'm wrong, but let's take a look at some of your quotes to be sure,
"You are the one making up rules here. No it is not allowed to have people join the server and take part in an ongoing situation."

This is when your answering Wash, So the people who log in are not able to RP with his own gang/mob...great
Odd, considering they shouldn't be "dead" they should be alive and they should be able to RP...just as you said yourself.
Oh wait...I found another interesting Quote...
When Wash said "There is no rule that states that you have to 'roleplay' your way into a situation to help a friend.."

You answered "There is"..
I don't get it...are we allowed or not allowed?..
And when he gave you a RP and asked is it necessary you said "Not needed, but tell me, why would this friend head to LSPD as suspect other than to give up ?"
Like you're hiding from the question...Why drag LSPD into it? Let's say he's at LV heading towards the ocean for a swim if it makes it easier for you to answer.

And last but not least you said "In that case I think the price criminals pay is not high enough. Perhaps remove not just weapons but house and business as well ? After all you are dead then killed...."
So now you're changing the fact that you're not an RLRP server to one where you are?

Dude,your argueing with a guy who is responsible for your exsistence in this virtual world,so show some respect!

[Gandalf]

It's funny how you made this to make the admins answering in the previous "let's get thing straight" thread not so evil.

We know you/admins made that thread as a threat to us/other criminals out there.

You are still totally missing the point.

You're saying that you don't want RLRP ,right?  Why then make commands/scripts that makes it harder for a criminal to Role-play as a real "gangster" or "mafia" For example you want all the criminals to /gu when cops are around... you said you didn't want RLRP??
hmm maybe I'm wrong, but let's take a look at some of your quotes to be sure,
"You are the one making up rules here. No it is not allowed to have people join the server and take part in an ongoing situation."

Which commands or scripts make it harder ?
As for wanting criminals to /gu, you seem not to catch the idea again...
While not RL, this is still a RP server and that means criminals are supposed to act like criminals and not like a mafia TDM group. 

This is when your answering Wash, So the people who log in are not able to RP with his own gang/mob...great
Odd, considering they shouldn't be "dead" they should be alive and they should be able to RP...just as you said yourself.
Oh wait...I found another interesting Quote...
When Wash said "There is no rule that states that you have to 'roleplay' your way into a situation to help a friend.."

You answered "There is"..
I don't get it...are we allowed or not allowed?..
And when he gave you a RP and asked is it necessary you said "Not needed, but tell me, why would this friend head to LSPD as suspect other than to give up ?"
Like you're hiding from the question...Why drag LSPD into it? Let's say he's at LV heading towards the ocean for a swim if it makes it easier for you to answer.

And last but not least you said "In that case I think the price criminals pay is not high enough. Perhaps remove not just weapons but house and business as well ? After all you are dead then killed...."
So now you're changing the fact that you're not an RLRP server to one where you are?

What exactly are you trying to accomplish here ? If you want rules to be less free, not a problem however you will not like the result. Then you can leave server saying it turned to shit, without asking yourself who made the shit...
First think of why you are playing and what you want to reach by a discussion. Then we can talk.

[SafetyMoose]

As an admin, i know that i get that feeling like. "OK, here comes the moaning, whats the point of even doing anything when it just causes more problems..." Then i realize, hey if i don't do something people will complain, so really all i do is my job as an admin and leave it at that, if i was doing my job wrong then the owners and managers will tell me and ill fix the problems that i have. People need to understand that we are all here to help them and all we ask in return is that you follow the rules laid out by the owners. The rules are not made to be debated over and over in SA:MP General, they are made to be followed and respected, if you dont like the rules that your free to leave. I cant stand people who join the server thinking "Hmm, these rules dont seem fair, maybe if i moan on the forums they will be changed". Thats not how it works.

[Altair_Carter]

Dude,your argueing with a guy who is responsible for your exsistence in this virtual world,so show some respect!

Who gives a fuck about virtual life?

[midget]

Dude,your argueing with a guy who is responsible for your exsistence in this virtual world,so show some respect!

So I am not entitled to speak my mind?...

You are still totally missing the point.

Am I really?..please tell me the point then...


And Gandalf, you answered the question with different answers...
First off you say that it's not allowed to join a player in need to, secondly your saying that you are forced to RP if you want to help the player in need, and thirdly you say that it is not needed to RP, and you start rambling about LSPD...

Want the rules to be less free?...I want an answer for the questions above...

You're just hiding again...
provide real answers instead of rambling on about what I am trying to accomplish or that I do not catch an idea/point.

Gandalf...If you think I am not catching a point/idea..please argue AGAINST me instead of saying you seem not to catch the idea, therefore I will not answer the question.

Also the questions "Why am I playing? and What I want to reach with this discussion"

Let me answer these instead of typing you don't get it...
First of all I play because I thought it was fun once, but it all changed after an incident that many other have named.
Secondly- There are 2 kinds of these topics, on the first one, The admins to understand that they can't post moaning topics at General and I want to let the people know we are NOT cophunting.
and on this topic- I want you to answer the quetsions I asked above, not hide from them.

[SafetyMoose]

So I am not entitled to speak my mind?...

Am I really?..please tell me the point then...


And Gandalf, you answered the question with different answers...
First off you say that it's not allowed to join a player in need to, secondly your saying that you are forced to RP if you want to help the player in need, and thirdly you say that it is not needed to RP, and you start rambling about LSPD...

Want the rules to be less free?...I want an answer for the questions above...

You're just hiding again...
provide real answers instead of rambling on about what I am trying to accomplish or that I do not catch an idea/point.

Gandalf...If you think I am not catching a point/idea..please argue AGAINST me instead of saying you seem not to catch the idea, therefore I will not answer the question.

Also the questions "Why am I playing? and What I want to reach with this discussion"

Let me answer these instead of typing you don't get it...
First of all I play because I thought it was fun once, but it all changed after an incident that many other have named.
Secondly- There are 2 kinds of these topics, on the first one, The admins to understand that they can't post moaning topics at General and I want to let the people know we are NOT cophunting.
and on this topic- I want you to answer the quetsions I asked above, not hide from them.

so if you dont think its fun why are you still here?

[Jingle]

Because he is loyal to Corleone.

[SafetyMoose]

Because he is loyal to Corleone.

you play video games to have fun, i dont understand why you would be here if your not having fun.

[Julio.]

you play video games to have fun, i dont understand why you would be here if your not having fun.

Well put.

Take what you want from your experiences, and do not feel forced into choices, because you aren't.
If you do not like the servers rules, join another one. If you do not like the game, play another one. If you do not like the community, you are wrong, and need to really think what a game is for you, wasting time, or having fun...

[Gandalf]

You want answers and show that it is not me who is twisting things ? Not a problem.

It's funny how you made this to make the admins answering in the previous "let's get thing straight" read not so evil.

We know you/admins made that thread as a threat to us/other criminals out there.

I made this thread not to make admins or corleone less evil. I made the thread to prepare turning away from that discussion, after talking it through with Daniel. As noted earlier, the discussion is universal and to keep it revolving around a single group is not correct, and just hurts the group in a way that is not justified given their past accomplishments.

You're saying that you don't want RLRP ,right?  Why then make commands/scripts that makes it harder for a criminal to Role-play as a real "gangster" or "mafia" For example you want all the criminals to /gu when cops are around... you said you didn't want RLRP??
hmm maybe I'm wrong, but let's take a look at some of your quotes to be sure,
"You are the one making up rules here. No it is not allowed to have people join the server and take part in an ongoing situation."
This is when your answering Wash, So the people who log in are not able to RP with his own gang/mob...great
Odd, considering they shouldn't be "dead" they should be alive and they should be able to RP...just as you said yourself.

This quote was made referring to the idea of Wash that nothing prevents people from letting friends randomly joining a shootout. Lets turn it around... SWAT will set their spawn at strategic places around the Corleone HQ, and when a number of wanted players is there login and start killing them. Would you see that as fair ?

If you want to go to "dead" or "alive" then the question is how are they aware of something going on ?

Oh wait...I found another interesting Quote...
When Wash said "There is no rule that states that you have to 'roleplay' your way into a situation to help a friend.."

You answered "There is"..
I don't get it...are we allowed or not allowed?..

I do not see any faulty logic when you read the first statement. New arriving players are not aware something is going on, there for them joining the fight without warning is not a fair thing.

And when he gave you a RP and asked is it necessary you said "Not needed, but tell me, why would this friend head to LSPD as suspect other than to give up ?"
Like you're hiding from the question...Why drag LSPD into it? Let's say he's at LV heading towards the ocean for a swim if it makes it easier for you to answer.

Because this was about the situation where a suspected player was heading towards LSPD. The piece of RP that Wash gave was an absurd example. My reaction was on a situation where the wanted player directed his friends to LSPD (outside RP) in order for them to be able to shoot the pursuing cops, thus ambushing them. This is not allowed. If the players would drive up and take him away without first trying to blast all cops, probably I would not object, depending on the situation.

And last but not least you said "In that case I think the price criminals pay is not high enough. Perhaps remove not just weapons but house and business as well ? After all you are dead then killed...."
So now you're changing the fact that you're not an RLRP server to one where you are?

No, however if criminals see the current penatly for death as no reason to give up and would rather play TDM, perhaps we should raise the cost of death. Not to annoy the criminals for to decrease fighting until death.

[Void]

Making more death cost will decrease the constant fight till death scenarios, however it will increase moaning, not just depending on the penalty itself, then the circumstances in which they loose money.