Hang on a Minute....

[SugarD]

I never said admins are ment to just ban out from the blue. But you still dont see the point. How many times do i have to repeat myself?

If we get a message about you trying to spawn a minigun, you are trying it, on purpose or not on purpose, you are still doing so. Therefor, it's treated as you are hacking and you will eventually get banned for it. As said, you are using mods at your OWN risk.

Wrong. Just because the scripts say you are doesn't mean you are. I get that you are trying to say that even if a user does it unintentionally, it's still happening, but that is not my point. There is still always a chance that the scripts could be bugged and are reporting false information. It's happened in the past, and it can always happen again. Yes, users are responsible for what their mods do, but that doesn't necessarily mean admins should straight up ban them for something unintentional either. Yes, they know it's "use at your own risk", but admins are also supposed to be there to help players and investigate reports. If a user has a simple mod that's only conflicting with our server and nobody else's, admins should be investigating the issue when it comes up so they can help the player understand that it's causing an issue. The weapon hacking detection only pops up for admins since any hacked weapons are automatically removed, so the player might not even know this has happened until they are already banned. This is obviously something that is specific to our community's SA:MP server and no one else's, as well. At minimum this should be looked into, and I'm speaking about not just admins, but Devs too. Please also keep in mind that admins are supposed to help players out even when they are caught rulebreaking. Sometimes they don't know they are breaking the rules and admins are there to not only punish them, but to also teach them. If they are using something that gets them banned and they don't understand why, how will they learn from their mistakes? Yes, Regulars know these rules, but new players don't, and they are the ones that are more likely to be banned on the spot.

P.S. I'm not pointing fingers. As I've said before, both sides need to get past the paranoid BS and work together to figure out the cause of this issue. If people are immediately banned without trying to debug it, we'll never know why it happens.

[Malcolm]

There is still always a chance that the scripts could be bugged and are reporting false information. It's happened in the past, and it can always happen again.

The scripts on the server isn't what causes it, it's the mods you're using that causes it.

When this issue was made public I remember there being talk on the SA:MP forums about it and that many other servers had the same issue. Obviously it has nothing to do with the scripts since not all scripts are the same. Anyway, as soon as we realized this the admins announced this many times through the server for several days to come as well as on the forum. Of course, someone is bound to miss this but you cannot expect us to send a message to each and every user on Argonath.

You say you aren't hacking, but in fact you are. Even though it is not intentional. If we did not have the anti-hack script (supported by David_Omid?) you would most assurdely actually be able to use the RPG-s or grenades that the mod causes you to spawn.

This is why Gandalf, so often, has proclaimed that he rather you play the game "cleanly", the way it's meant to be played and that you all use mods at your own risks. What's the point of "you're on risks" if you expect us to ask everyone if they are acutally using hacks. Even if we had the time no one would say "yes"...

The weapon hacking detection only pops up for admins since any hacked weapons are automatically removed, so the player might not even know this has happened until they are already banned.

The player weapon hacking gets the exact same message as the admin.

This mod has probably not been banned from usage since it is held so darely by the players using it. Hence "at your own risk".

[SugarD]

The scripts on the server isn't what causes it, it's the mods you're using that causes it.

Wrong. Argonath RPG's SA:MP server is the ONLY server to report this issue so far. Even the ELM and CLEO mod creators don't have a clue what's going on.

@The weapon hacking message: Users don't get a message that they have hacked weapons last I checked. There may be something that says their weapon they have gotten isn't allowed, but from my previous server beta testing experience in SA:MP, it never actually used the word "hacked" in any of it's warnings to users. Only the admin messages had this. That in itself would confuse unknowing users.

About the actual script: All it does is detect a player's weapons and if they have one on-hand that matches the disallowed weapons, it displays the messages and removes those weapons. It doesn't actually detect if they are "hacked" or not, since SA:MP isn't capable of detecting every possible hack program out there, hence there being no script function for it. The script is just a clever way to catch disallowed weapons as people spawn them, according to the data the client sends to the server.

[Cyril]

Well, it just happen to me..
I connected the server as every day, nothing changes then I saw George Jetson, I press G to get in his PD car and the chat start to flood "You are trying to spawn weapon blabla".
Murt kicked me for "bugg relogg", I came back, press G again and boom.. again it flood ""You are trying to spawn weapon blabla"
I /q and did it again with Murt witnessing and boom again.. I removed ELM/Cleo and no more problems.
First time it happened

[SugarD]

Well, it just happen to me..
I connected the server as every day, nothing changes then I saw George Jetson, I press G to get in his PD car and the chat start to flood "You are trying to spawn weapon blabla".
Murt kicked me for "bugg relogg", I came back, press G again and boom.. again it flood ""You are trying to spawn weapon blabla"
I /q and did it again with Murt witnessing and boom again.. I removed ELM/Cleo and no more problems.
First time it happened

What version of CLEO and ELM did you have? Were you wearing a police skin that was fresh from /duty, or previously saved weapons from your last logout?

[Cyril]

What version of CLEO and ELM did you have? Were you wearing a police skin that was fresh from /duty, or previously saved weapons from your last logout?

I had cleo 4 with latest elm and townzone mod that show area on radar. It was returned weapons from my previous log out. I remember having more pepperspray than usual due to SWAT training yesterday.

[SugarD]

I had cleo 4 with latest elm and townzone mod that show area on radar. It was returned weapons from my previous log out. I remember having more pepperspray than usual due to SWAT training yesterday.

I've yet to get this bug in my entire time playing on FD and PD duty. The SWAT thing you mentioned makes me a bit curious though. I know of at least one person who mentioned getting this bug in the past who has SWAT rights. Your radar mod could also be linked to it theoretically, although I don't know if anyone else who has been caught by this had it as well or not. I don't personally use it.

Anyone else here that has gotten this "weapon hacking" bug used the mod or has SWAT rights? If this can be reproduced every time the same thing is done, maybe we can find the cause behind it.

[Jcstodds]

doesn't necessarily mean admins should...
 admins are also supposed to ...
admins should be...
admins are there to not only punish them, but to also teach them.

  Admins should do this, do that. You are not currently a SAMP admin... I think you have no idea.
  Also admins are there solely for the enforcement of the rules and to ensure players can play without problems. We rely on regulars and veterans to teach players... this is how it has always been.

  Regarding the topic, it says use mods at users own risk. If mods are compatible then every other server except Argonath, it is not up to the developers to figure out a work around for you to play with your mods. It is perfectly clear, use at own risk... no matter what you say about bug fixing or whatever - It is no ones job in Admin or dev team to spend time finding bugs or fixes caused by 3rd party mods.

[Zaila]

What i find amusing is that you guys are trying to tell us how to do our job..

There is still always a chance that the scripts could be bugged and are reporting false information

Haven't happend so far, and the scripts aren't reacting unless you actually have those weapons in your inventory.

but that doesn't necessarily mean admins should straight up ban them for something unintentional either.

So if you unintenionally using hacking software, we shouldn't ban them? It's the same thing.

The weapon hacking detection only pops up for admins since any hacked weapons are automatically removed

Both admins and the player in question is getting alarmed about it.

Please also keep in mind that admins are supposed to help players out even when they are caught rulebreaking

We do.

Regulars know these rules, but new players don't, and they are the ones that are more likely to be banned on the spot.

New players gets a popup window with the rules when spawning for the first time. They can either read through it and follow them, or they will break it and start hacking. New players and veterans are getting treated equally when it's about hacks.

and they are the ones that are more likely to be banned on the spot.

They are treated equally as veteran players when it comes to hacks.

both sides need to get past the paranoid BS

There is no paranoia, we are doing our job.

Thank you for trying to learn me on how to administrate. Now go somewhere else and try look like you are inferior to others, it wont work here.

[Louis_Keyl]

"Don't use mods that give you an advantage over others." Simple enough as that, if the mod you installed gives you a weapon restricted, its an unfair advantage over others, there for, not allowed. Not our fault you don't really investigate the mod or something..

[SugarD]

"Don't use mods that give you an advantage over others." Simple enough as that, if the mod you installed gives you a weapon restricted, its an unfair advantage over others, there for, not allowed. Not our fault you don't really investigate the mod or something..

That's the thing though Louis. Only our server is having this issue. No one else's is. That means new players who think the mod is safe will get banned for not knowing that it's causing issues here and no where else.

Even if the rules are clear, since when are admins not supposed to help players? New players read the rules when registering, but admins are still supposed to assist them in learning them.

I hardly see how a known safe mod on other servers should be the fault of users when only our server has an issue. There is nothing to warn users that some mods may react badly with out server that are known to be safe...especially when we've used the same mods for years without issue. Our forums are riddled with various topics about helping users to get CLEO and ELM installed. That itself is misleading to new or unknowing users. I know the use of mods falls upon users themselves, but this is obviously a very special case since only our server is having the problem for unknown reasons.

[Zaila]

SugarD... How can you be freaking naive?

The scripts ONLY reacts when the player got those weapons in their inventory.. Which means it is a HACK.. Either other servers dosen't got as good anti hack script as Argonath, or the administration on other servers are to dumb to find what's causing it.

find any proof that the scripts or bugged or be quiet. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and you are just trying to show to the rest of the community that we have no clue about what we are doing and how much better then you are then all of us.

[SugarD]

The scripts ONLY reacts when the player got those weapons in their inventory.. Which means it is a HACK.. Either other servers dosen't got as good anti hack script as Argonath, or the administration on other servers are to dumb to find what's causing it.

I already explained earlier how it works, and no, it's not just hacked weapons. Yes, it's the most common way for it to happen, but it is possible to trigger it in other ways if the client reports you having weapons you don't. If these users never see the hacked weapons, then it's possible that something with ELM or CLEO could be triggering a memory address that the server thinks is stating their on-hand weapons as something else. As I said before, it's possible for there to be bugs. It always has been possible, and always will be. It doesn't matter how good you script something, bugs will always exist. This is true in every single program in the coding world. It's an undeniable fact. If you want an example of it happening, ask David_Omid about what happened when he first added the fire missions on the test server for RS4. It triggered them then because they weren't set as allowed yet when the server gave them the "weapons" during missions. I know this because I helped him test them personally.

find any proof that the scripts or bugged or be quiet. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about, and you are just trying to show to the rest of the community that we have no clue about what we are doing and how much better then you are then all of us, and if you continue this, you will be on a thin line.

No, I am not. I just don't want to see innocent players banned for something that is obviously specific to our community. Stop trying to pick fights with me. I'm discussing this issue, not blaming anyone. I clearly said earlier that I wasn't doing such, so don't threaten me.

Admins should do this, do that. You are not currently a SAMP admin... I think you have no idea.

I was a SA:MP admin before, as well as one in MTA:VC twice, and IV:MP. I'm clearly aware of the workload involved, especially at peak times. This never stopped me. If you don't like the job you do, then quit. I don't mean that in a provoking way, but it's pretty much the only way I can say it. Users are given these rights to help each other and keep the community peaceful, not to ban as soon as a hacker shows up. I've seen admins take the time before to explain to a hacker that their hacks aren't allowed, or even at minimum when busy, use the commands that tell them with a warning, giving the user a chance to leave and turn them off instead of being banned. There's a reason why there was the admin reconstruction of SA:MP in 2009. Admins back then had become to strict and would punish for the smallest things instead of help people. I'm not saying it's happening now, but we also don't want to lead to this. Yes, users who know better should be punished, but this case is definitely special since it's server-specific, so even many Regular users aren't aware of what's going on since not everyone checks the forum. Some just prefer to show up and play. That's where admins should be stepping in to explain the problem to them. If they refuse to listen, well then they are obviously deserving of the ban.

Not everyone who accidentally triggers this is intending to be malicious. They just want to RP, hence why they have the mod to begin with. We already know that no one has found a way to reproduce this successfully yet, so I doubt anyone would care to do it just to accidentally hack. If they were trying to be malicious, they'd just go and install a hacking program.

And again, I'm going to say it since people are obviously blaming me for being defensive of innocent players:
I'M NOT AGAINST THE ADMIN TEAM, THE USERS, OR ANYONE. MY STATEMENTS ARE PURELY DISCUSSION ON THIS SPECIFIC ISSUE.

I've been an admin plenty of times before, even before some of you joined this community. I know what it entails, and I know it's not easy sometimes. That doesn't mean anyone should be "taking it easy" and just banning straight up either. Everyone deserves an equal chance, and I've believed that even since my own days as an admin. The Argonath Vision even states that everyone is equal here, so we should treat them as such.

@Zaila: I'm not saying you or any admin specifically isn't doing your job correctly. I'm simply saying that as a community overall, due to the mysterious issues behind this problem, that extra care should be given until the root cause can be discovered since it's only specific to our server, which is going to confuse a lot of users...especially when SA:MP itself added support for ELM way back when.

[Malcolm]

I'M NOT AGAINST THE ADMIN TEAM, THE USERS, OR ANYONE. MY STATEMENTS ARE PURELY DISCUSSION ON THIS SPECIFIC ISSUE.

You're statements have so far not been very much about the specific issue. I did not read it all, obviously, because it was not relevent. Speaking of the specific issue - Jcstoods made a rather nice statement to your post that you have not yet given a statement on. I'd like to hear it.

Regarding the topic, it says use mods at users own risk. If mods are compatible then every other server except Argonath, it is not up to the developers to figure out a work around for you to play with your mods. It is perfectly clear, use at own risk... no matter what you say about bug fixing or whatever - It is no ones job in Admin or dev team to spend time finding bugs or fixes caused by 3rd party mods.

[SugarD]

You're statements have so far not been very much about the specific issue. I did not read it all, obviously, because it was not relevent. Speaking of the specific issue - Jcstoods made a rather nice statement to your post that you have not yet given a statement on. I'd like to hear it.

I didn't respond to it because I agree. I didn't say regarding the bugs on the mod itself. I'm saying admins should assist in explaining to the users the issue, and in the process work with them to hopefully find out how they got the bug since it's specific to only our server. If the mod is the cause, then so be it, but there's obviously something specific to our server that is triggering it as well. It's not just the mod at fault. The more people reporting the issue, the better chance we'll figure out why Argo's scripts are being set off by something that doesn't spawn weapons by itself. If every server were getting it, the mod would've been banned by now. This is a mutual issue between players with the mods and the server itself.

If everyone agrees, I wouldn't mind opening up a topic in SA:MP General regarding the bug and what users did when it happened so we can hopefully find a pattern, but I'm afraid to because it will likely turn into another discussion such as this where people will just say it's the user's fault and no one else's, rather than getting anything done regarding the issue itself.