Gangwars - what's in the pipeline, your ideas/suggestions

[Cutt3r]

Hi,
Gangwars have always been a matter of great interest, controversy and of course, debate. We used to have controlled gangwars earlier on where an admin would be watching. An early attempt at this idea was great and well accepted but it did generate it's share of complaints/debates.

After a good deal of thinking & discussion, we have a detailed idea on how to possibly pull off a gangwar without too many complaints. A broad outline of the idea is given below(just the basic points). The actual idea/scripts/maps which is on another board of forums will be presented to you much later. When I say much later, it may be as late as May 2012, as I am heading into inactivity from today. Of course, I will visit now and then & post my thoughts on your ideas in this topic, but expect no word about the actual detailed idea/scripts/maps which was presented to HQ before May. What we do require from you is your ideas/suggestions to the gangwar idea so that I can finish this off as soon as I return. Many heads may be better than one, so give me your ideas and I will add them as required if they are already not in the idea that we have formulated.

Broad outline of the idea:
1. Gangwars will have a non refundable joining fee on a per person basis. In case a gang member's game crashes before the start of the war, his fee gets refunded but will not rejoin the gangwar.
2. Minimum of 5, max of 10 members in the gangwar.
3. Gang members will be chosen with script support, teleported to the gang war arena(currently a choice of 3 maps, two of which are new & to be designed).
4. Admins will be involved in the gangwar to oversee it, although, as there is script support, their role may be minimal.
5. Gangwar starts after both teams are ready, when a team is completely wiped out, the other team is apparently the winner, remaining gang members teleport back to LS.
6. None of the members in the gangwar become suspects even though they may have killed someone in the gangwar.
7. Once the gangwar ends, neither team will participate in another gangwar for the period of 2 weeks.
8. Civilians(the guys with white names, not the scripted job employees) will be allowed to watch the gangwar.
9. In order to participate in the gangwar, an application will be made with requisite details.

The actual idea which we have is very vast and detailed. It has 1,556 words in it, if that was any indication of how detailed it is. So, what I am looking for is not the finer details, HQ will cover that part. What I need from you is to know what you want to see, which is not present in the main points above. The ideas you give us, if it is included in the original gangwar idea we have, will receive a reply from me or other HQ as "Included".

Think hard and well about this idea. If successful this will benefit the entire server. We need constructive, well thought off inputs from you. Before you make a post with suggestions, do not include anything:
1. Without due thought
2. Which is unconnected with this topic
3. Which is not possible to be scripted. You need not know scripting to know if something is possible or not, just use common sense.

Cutt3r

[Orel]

Looks like nice idea even with involving "DM" in RPG server.

[Cutt3r]

involving "DM" in RPG server.

Taken care of in the original idea 

[Cero]

I don't like this idea at all.

It involves no roleplay and it reminds me more of a DM fight.

What happened to the massive gang-wars that were accepted back in 2008/2009? I remember these big rivalries between Corleone and Stracci, I never had so much fun. The idea to implement a feature such as this just shows how immature the community has become, when we can't even have gangwars without a massive amount of rules around it.

[Cutt3r]

I don't like this idea at all.

It involves no roleplay and it reminds me more of a DM fight.

What happened to the massive gang-wars that were accepted back in 2008/2009? I remember these big rivalries between Corleone and Stracci, I never had so much fun. The idea to implement a feature such as this just shows how immature the community has become, when we can't even have gangwars without a massive amount of rules around it.

There are some who know when/how to fight, there are some who don't know anything about such matters either. The system with script support and rules merely ensures that you can continue to enjoy the roleplay, whilst sticking to the rules at hand.
Immaturity is a subject matter of perception. With script support, if players are able to have a more fun time, why not include it eh?

Now, constructive ideas/suggestions please

[CharlieKasper]

I kind of like this idea but also concur with Alan. This looks more like a script that consists of no whatsoever roleplay.

Point 1- I do not mind that, but what's the point? Everyone will just pay for it unless it's something like a 100k.
Point 2- Having minimum number seems fine but having a limit is just awkward. Any particular reason of limiting it?
Point 3- The teleporting seems more of a DM zone idea. Getting teleported to kill is just DM.
Point 5- As usual, happens when someone wins. However I don't support the teleportation at all.
Point 6- Again, disagree. They killed someone, they should get suspected unless it is taken as a real life roleplay.
Point 8- lol wtf >.>
Point 9- Not really needed. Informing the administration would be alright.

And about point 4 and 7- Those seem fine.

Edit- What about situations when a rival group just turns in the location of a gang and starts a roleplay which leads to a war?

Another question, what was wrong with the old gang war validation system? We can just use it again and with that adding the name of players who will be taking part in the situation.

[Que]

Hi,

Hello.

1. Gangwars will have a non refundable joining fee on a per person basis.

Wait, are you supposed to pay for gang wars?

2. Minimum of 5, max of 10 members in the gangwar.

When 58th Street Conecta was active, we reached fifty+ members. Let's say we had at least fifteen members at most of the times when it was up; making the maximum of ten members will frankly disallow fellow and most likely loyal members to be denied from the gangwar, THEIR gang is in.

3. Gang members will be chosen with script support, teleported to the gang war arena(currently a choice of 3 maps, two of which are new & to be designed).

A war arena sounds a lot like a deathmatch slash ultra freeroam server with no whatsoever role-play feeling of any territory or what you're generally fighting for.

4. Admins will be involved in the gangwar to oversee it, although, as there is script support, their role may be minimal.

An admin watching over a gangwar is always appreciated.

5. Gangwar starts after both teams are ready, when a team is completely wiped out, the other team is apparently the winner, remaining gang members teleport back to LS.
6. None of the members in the gangwar become suspects even though they may have killed someone in the gangwar.

I'll use point five and six in the same column.
You have literally just wiped another gang out, you won; but you should not be suspected for it? Yet again, being a criminal for such happenings is part of the game, part of the gang mentality. There will always be the fight, the last man standing-type of scenario, then the pursuit and escape from Mr. and Mrs. Cop. That's how it should be.

7. Once the gangwar ends, neither team will participate in another gangwar for the period of 2 weeks.

Two weeks is a long time, especially when you are spending a lot of time on the server.


Let me have one conclusion of the idea.
The original feeling of being a gang member will be removed, and instead the two gangs will be placed in war arenas where they will fight each other. They cannot have any sort of rematch during a two week-period. The winners will not be suspected for killing the opposite gang, and both of the gangs will have to pay for their entry to the event. Back in the days (Inferno 9 vs. 58th, Stracci vs. Corleone etcetera), these violent and bloody fights was the bomb, this is what I take with me when I look back on Argonath and it's giving me goosebumps. Unfortunately, memorable happenings like these will no longer occur, and be placed on three various war arenas, which is in my opinion, one step in the wrong direction.

I hope it was constructive enough.

[Mario_Rinna]

3. Gang members will be chosen with script support, teleported to the gang war arena(currently a choice of 3 maps, two of which are new & to be designed).

5. Gangwar starts after both teams are ready, when a team is completely wiped out, the other team is apparently the winner, remaining gang members teleport back to LS.

6. None of the members in the gangwar become suspects even though they may have killed someone in the gangwar.

Teleporting to a gang war arena?

just use common sense.

Common sense is not so common here. Thank you for demonstrating.

Cutter, you should be a Paruni manager... Seriously...

[Cutt3r]

As said in the first post, I am interested in seeing more suggestions to add to the idea. I do not mind the questioning of the idea as such, as it is incomplete, the whole idea will make sense to you. I have given the broad framework. I need additional ideas/suggestions from you.
In response to your post:

I kind of like this idea but also concur with Alan. This looks more like a script that consists of no whatsoever roleplay.

This is one of the fundamental aspects of the server. Why would you think we would not include this while making the idea?  It is factored.

Point 1- I do not mind that, but what's the point? Everyone will just pay for it unless it's something like a 100k.

Point is that the fee is set at such a level that it would discourage a gang from engaging in battle for frivolous reasons.

Point 2- Having minimum number seems fine but having a limit is just awkward. Any particular reason of limiting it?

One admin on 20 players a side(imagine). Although the admin need not oversee it, if he chooses to(and most likely will oversee it), how would he manage it with 40 players on the gangwar?

Point 3- The teleporting seems more of a DM zone idea. Getting teleported to kill is just DM.

I beg to differ. The idea is to put the gang war members in an enclosed location so that any new player does not get the idea of a DM server. Furthermore, being in an enclosed location makes it easier to manage the whole show.
I wonder why you felt getting teleported to kill is just DM. Too much ParUni? 

Point 5- As usual, happens when someone wins. However I don't support the teleportation at all.

If we don't teleport you, you will remain stuck in closed walls for ever . Your rp will involve the following for eternity:

* Cutt3r stares at the blood stained walls.

* Cutt3r continues staring at the blood stained walls and thinking 'if only I could get out of here'

Point 6- Again, disagree. They killed someone, they should get suspected unless it is taken as a real life roleplay.

Gang members have already had their share of action in the gang war. One of the drawbacks of the old system was 4-6 guys cruising around LS hunting cops. This is taken care of with such a point. For this limited purpose alone, consider it as real life roleplay, if you so want, although I would see it as sticking within acceptable levels of RP.

Point 8- lol wtf >.>

Some people may want to roleplay a newspaper reporter and report the gangwar. Some others may want to  just watch some action. Why not?

Point 9- Not really needed. Informing the administration would be alright.

It is needed, as it is the basis for ensuring that the reasons for the gangwar are not frivolous.

Edit- What about situations when a rival group just turns in the location of a gang and starts a roleplay which leads to a war?

Once implemented, any such shooting sprees may be treated as team deathmatching. There should not be any war outside of these rules. You have a disagreement with a gang, you apply for the gangwar under controlled conditions.

Another question, what was wrong with the old gang war validation system? We can just use it again and with that adding the name of players who will be taking part in the situation.

I wish you were there to know. Past is past, I will not deliberate on the old system anymore. It is unnecessary and a waste of my time.

[Mario_Rinna]

I need additional ideas/suggestions from you.

Here's an idea - let's rename the server to Argonath TDM right away, shall we?

It will save us all a lot of time and help avoid misunderstandings. :rules:

[BlackEagle]

We don't even have gang-wars anymore. Just a couple of orange-men shooting at each other and eventually at the blue-men.

[Jcstodds]

  I do not really like the idea of teleporting to an arena. Gang wars should all stem from some form of roleplay reason, and taking it to a kind of game arena - that is not a gang war. That is like having a paintball fight to determine the winner of some gang dispute - it's not really a war at all - it's just team deathmatch arena.
  This system would encourage gangs to make wars just to have a ranking system (like a TDM clan ladder for instance).

  Part of the fun of legitimate "gang wars" is that they take part across the map, involve vehicles etc.

 (3) I would propose: Do not use arenas, instead distinguish gang members in gang war with different name colour. They do not become suspects if they kill other gang members in the gang war, but are susceptible to cop interference - so would stay out of public areas. If they are /su and killed by cops then that would count as a death in the gang war.

  Obviously if they wished, the gangs could play cops to their advantage and use more tactics (location... vehicles etc) rather than boring DM arena.

  Any civilian not involved in the gang war who kills a gang member gets a automatic disarm and ajail for deathmatching. Gang member can return (still classed as gang war). Only kills from cops or other gang members result in a gang war death.

Summary

1. Agreed
2. Agreed
3. Script support agreed - do not support arenas - boring and is just TDM. Involve whole map, make war susceptible to cop interference (but not civilian) and it will force wars to take place in far out locations.
4. Admins can see the death reports. If civilian interferes (kills gang member without being part of war) auto disarm and jail.
5. Agreed. TP them to LS so they cannot rejoin as civilian (no longer gang)
6. Agreed, unless they are /su from other things and caught by cops.
7. Agreed.
8. With my proposed changes civilians would not be able to watch as the fight would be dynamic.
9. Agreed

  The largest problem with my idea is that civilians who sympathise with one gang or those who will follow or watch may begin to interfere with the fight, taking sides and start shooting. Killing would land them auto punishment but nothing I can think of to stop them dealing damage. :S

  Main disagreement from me here - I would not consider it "RP" the moment a gang is TP to some random arena just so they can shoot at each other. I am not RLRP fan, but I do like to keep RP somewhat feasible.
 

[Kojak]

Regarding the old system of war validation, it was popular but had so many restrictions that it was unworkable.

The way you should consider Cutter's ideas are as seeds. The overall long term aim is to allow for viable power struggles between organised groups of criminals, to promote criminal roleplay in a way that is not instantly shut down by the administration because it has fallen foul of the rules or immedately attracts the attention of the police who overwhelm it within moments.

Gang wars occur daily in the server, they always lead to mass deathmatching but quite possibly have role play backgrounds. Regardless of their backgrounds the end result is the same, mass deathmatching that disrupts the game play of others and has to be stopped.

What Cutter is trying to do is to introduce a way to prevent having to stop them, so those same players who engage in huge gang related battles now can do so without breaking the rules. Just run with it, think about it and try to imagine how you would like to see it developed. We will listen to your ideas. If you don't like the idea of gang wars at all, don't worry about it, it won't affect you anyway.

[Orel]

1. Agreed.
2. Agreed about maximum and minimum,but it could be more then 10 gang members.
3. Not agreed - If you'll be teleported to a "gangwar" it will be the exact as typing /dm 6 in ParUni,and it will be boring inside an arena and will be exact as TDM.
4. Agreed,admins is always appreciated to overview the gang war.
5. As stated in A3.
6. Not agreed,this "gangwar" is the same as Killing event,shouldn't be unsuspected if he murdered someone,since its RP server.
7. Agreed.
8. Agreed.
9. Agreed.

[9r2e5i3k]

No to everything. This would only further induce people making/joining groups to have a legal reason to deathmatch (as in get guns and shoot people being the main point of the game). As if that's not already happening...

Furthermore, if it's going to get scripted, actual role-played gang wars will lose on validity - just like everything that gets scripted, because of the "if it's scripted, not using the script doesn't count" logic. Same with drugs, same with the whole hitman script.

No group should want to have a gang war out of nothing, because that just shows the group is set towards deathmatching. If anything, a gang war should be an outcome that's a finale to a bigger role-play scenario between gangs that revolves around a valid point (just "being enemies"/"he is from another gang" is not a valid reason and is a plain deathmatching excuse).