World Trade Center news updates and discussion.

[Gandalf]

In the case of the trolley if you are strong enough to push a fat man of the bridge, you can jump yourself and solve the problem.

As for the plane, all planes are using predetermined and controlled flight paths, and I am pretty sure none will be close to the Olympics area. If a plane deviates from its path it is immediately contacted, and should it not respond there is a very likely chance it will be brought down by force.
You might not be aware but I am pretty sure flight paths will be adjusted in such way that any deviation to head towards the Olymic area will not be over highly populated areas, minimizing the victims on the ground.
As for the passengers, life has to end.

[Pandalink]

In the case of the trolley if you are strong enough to push a fat man of the bridge, you can jump yourself and solve the problem.

It's a hypothetical situation where you jumping would not solve the problem (as in, you could not stop it).
Although, you being able to jump would present an interesting new option in a different scenario.

[JDC]

It's a hypothetical situation where you jumping would not solve the problem (as in, you could not stop it).
Although, you being able to jump would present an interesting new option in a different scenario.

The premise here is that anything with less mass than the fat man will be unable to stop the others from being killed. As such, the only choice you can take to save the others is to push the fat man.

Anyone who is unable to make decisions under such problems is clearly incapable of making a life-or-death decision.

[Gandalf]

The premise here is that anything with less mass than the fat man will be unable to stop the others from being killed. As such, the only choice you can take to save the others is to push the fat man.

Anyone who is unable to make decisions under such problems is clearly incapable of making a life-or-death decision.

The problem is invalid and falls in the category chicken and egg.
Making a life-or-death decision should not be based on impossible premises but on realistic choices.

Alternative suggestion:
You are the operator of a switch and see a trolley approaching at high speed.
You are in a closed house, and your only option is to press a button to throw the switch.
Without throwing the switch, the trolley will go in to a bumper, behind which 5 people are standing. There is a 99% chance the trolley will not be stopped and kill the 5 people.
If you do throw the switch, the trolley will crash in to a fat man standing at the end of the other track. There is a 100% chance he will be killed.
None of the people has a chance to be alarmed and get out of the way.

What do you do?

[Void]

The problem is invalid and falls in the category chicken and egg.
Making a life-or-death decision should not be based on impossible premises but on realistic choices.

Alternative suggestion:
You are the operator of a switch and see a trolley approaching at high speed.
You are in a closed house, and your only option is to press a button to throw the switch.
Without throwing the switch, the trolley will go in to a bumper, behind which 5 people are standing. There is a 99% chance the trolley will not be stopped and kill the 5 people.
If you do throw the switch, the trolley will crash in to a fat man standing at the end of the other track. There is a 100% chance he will be killed.
None of the people has a chance to be alarmed and get out of the way.

What do you do?

Throw the switch, choose the lesser evil. There is no time to think any further because five lives will be lost.

[Gandalf]

Throw the switch, choose the lesser evil. There is no time to think any further because five lives will be lost.

Throw the switch and you have killed one man.
Do not throw the switch and there is a 1% chance the 5 survive.
Are you sure ?

[Void]

Throw the switch and you have killed one man.
Do not throw the switch and there is a 1% chance the 5 survive.
Are you sure ?

Maybe my coffee didn't kick in yet but this is what I see:

There is a 99% chance the trolley will not be stopped and kill the 5 people.
If you do throw the switch, the trolley will crash in to a fat man standing at the end of the other track. There is a 100% chance he will be killed.
None of the people has a chance to be alarmed and get out of the way.

Maybe I did not get the concept right? Numbers always terrify us, so I am sure on this one.

[Gandalf]

Maybe my coffee didn't kick in yet but this is what I see:Maybe I did not get the concept right? Numbers always terrify us, so I am sure on this one.

You got the concept right, but think over your decision.
If you throw the switch, your action has surely killed a man.
If you do nothing, you have not killed anyone, and there is a chance nobody would have been killed, even it if is a 1% chance.

[Void]

You got the concept right, but think over your decision.
If you throw the switch, your action has surely killed a man.
If you do nothing, you have not killed anyone, and there is a chance nobody would have been killed, even it if is a 1% chance.

From my bitter perspective, I stand firmly by this decision. By simply putting out this hypothetical situation(which is determined by unchangeable factors) you can already predict future answers. They are based on viewpoints(except the person had real encounters with given life/death situations).

Quite frankly, I am sitting here and writing my answer. The thought has left my mind minutes ago. How would I react in this particular situation?
How am I supposed to know that, Gandalf? We are just talking about a hypothesis. People would jump in front of a vehicle to save someone yet again they just might "freeze" when the moment comes. Tricky is this human nature/nurture.

[Gandalf]

From my bitter perspective, I stand firmly by this decision. By simply putting out this hypothetical situation(which is determined by unchangeable factors) you can already predict future answers. They are based on nothing but viewpoints.

Quite frankly, I am sitting here and writing my answer. The thought has left my mind minutes ago. How would I react in this particular situation?
How am I supposed to know that, Gandalf? We are just talking about a hypothesis. People would jump in front of a vehicle to save someone yet again they just might "freeze" when the moment comes. Tricky is this human nature/nurture.

The speed with which they answer the question and how they are able to defend their decision a posteriori does actually give a good indication of what someone would do in an emergency situation.

While I do not know you in person, or if you ever have been in a situation where you had to take emergency decisions, from your answer I would say the following:
In an emergency situation you are able to make a fast decision and you will go for the option that offers the highest amount of security of minimal damage.

[Void]

The speed with which they answer the question and how they are able to defend their decision a posteriori does actually give a good indication of what someone would do in an emergency situation.

While I do not know you in person, or if you ever have been in a situation where you had to take emergency decisions, from your answer I would say the following:
In an emergency situation you are able to make a fast decision and you will go for the option that offers the highest amount of security of minimal damage.

This is a sort of romanticized view at hand. I am inclined to believe everyone would react in a similar way because there is something hiding underneath the fog of this particular situation. Guilt. No one wants the ultimate burden of guilt, but to feel safe and accepted. That is the main reason why we react in such way.
We are still just social creatures and as that, very susceptible. Lets see how our members answer to this situation and you'll see what I'm writing about.

Bottom line is, we will never know.

[Gandalf]

This is a sort of romanticized view at hand. I am inclined to believe everyone would react in a similar way because there is something hiding underneath the fog of this particular situation. Guilt. No one wants the ultimate burden of guilt, but to feel safe and accepted. That is the main reason why we react in such way.
We are still just social creatures and as that, very susceptible. Lets see how our members answer to this situation and you'll see what I'm writing about.

Bottom line is, we will never know.

I am pretty sure people will react different especially because if what you mentioned.
Is the burden of guilt that comes from being personally responsible for killing a person compensated enough by knowing 5 people were stopped from almost certain death (remember the 1% chance) were saved? Or would they rather not become a killer?
People freeze because their rational behaviour conflicts with their instinct, causing a short circuit in their brain. It also greatly depends on their circumstances when taking such test.
The same person might react different when under influence of alcohol or even with a higher amount of cafeine in their blood.

[Void]

Is the burden of guilt that comes from being personally responsible for killing a person compensated enough by knowing 5 people were stopped from almost certain death (remember the 1% chance) were saved? Or would they rather not become a killer?

Their hands are already stained with other's blood. That's a completely new feeling. Sure, everyone will emphasize how you saved five lives and comfort you, reassure you that you did the right thing saving five instead of one but you'll die inside a little knowing you killed someone. This feeling will never leave you.
I may not know this firsthand but I know people that found themselves in these situations. They are not the same from the incident. This is completely natural as we are fragile beings dependent on analyzing. This feeling will be here because of "why and what if?" questions.

[SafetyMoose]

Throw the switch and you have killed one man.
Do not throw the switch and there is a 1% chance the 5 survive.
Are you sure ?

I would not play those odds to save 5 people, It would be best to flick the switch and kill one person. You could say you would feel guilt for the minuscule chance you could have saved everyones life, but at the end of the day the chances were just way to low to even think that you stood a reasonable chance of saving everyone.  the risk is to high.
Post Merge: July 09, 2012, 10:54:37 am

Their hands are already stained with other's blood. That's a completely new feeling. Sure, everyone will emphasize how you saved five lives and comfort you, reassure you that you did the right thing saving five instead of one but you'll die inside a little knowing you killed someone. This feeling will never leave you.
I may not know this firsthand but I know people that found themselves in these situations. They are not the same from the incident. This is completely natural as we are fragile beings dependent on analyzing. This feeling will be here because of "why and what if?" questions.

I think this would depend on if you killed an innocent person to save more lives, or if you killed a criminal to save the lives of the innocent. I met a cop who did a talk last year in my city who talked about the emotional stress using your weapon can cause, especially when you kill someone. in the aftermath of the situation, you just need to have the self confindence to understand that your actions were correct. Not everyone has this ability, but thats why so few people these days consider going in to a career that involves taking such risks.

[Void]

I think this would depend on if you killed an innocent person to save more lives, or if you killed a criminal to save the lives of the innocent. I met a cop who did a talk last year in my city who talked about the emotional stress using your weapon can cause, especially when you kill someone. in the aftermath of the situation, you just need to have the self confindence to understand that your actions were correct. Not everyone has this ability, but thats why so few people these days consider going in to a career that involves taking such risks.

The fact that he was a criminal will give you a different perspective, I agree. But the fact is that you killed a person. That's still a completely new feeling involved in your life. Have you ever killed?
I leave this conversation open as it is not in my hands to determine the "how" and "why" factor. I leave this to people who actually had a life bringing/taking decision.