Discussion of WWII

[Oliver]

Tell me, are you rather a slave, together with your whole family, or have you rather, as your granny describes, have a soldier bust your door open asking for vodka. Study some history before telling shit you don't even know of.

We (At least us, in Estonia and Latvia, don't know so much about Lithuania) had been ruled over by the Germans for 700 years. While they certainly didn't grant us any rights, they didn't hassle us more than the Russians. They still let us speak our language, and wear our clothing, while the Russians were constantly trying to "Russify" us.
You might argue that we were under the Russian Empire from 1710-1918, but the everyday affairs over here were still conducted by the Baltic Germans.

[JayL]

but the everyday affairs over here were still conducted by the Baltic Germans.

Then what was so shitty about Russian Empire???

[Thomas 'Leroy' Crof]

Oh the world would definitely be a better place if everyone had a similar goverment to western europe. But sadly, it can't be.

You mean such as in Holland and Greece? Not willing to make laws that actually are for the better for the country, afraid to lose voters?

Countries are suffering and just because they want their parties to be the biggest, and they're not making any decisions unless it gains them voters.

[Oliver]

Then what was so shitty about Russian Empire???

I haven't said anything about the Russian Empire. We're talking about the Soviet Union.

[Thomas 'Leroy' Crof]

This is my view also. The only downside I can see is the potential fallout from using that kind of weaponry, and the fact that it would take awhile before we could move in to repopulate the land. Also the liberals would get really, really butthurt about it and that's just annoying.

There's some drugdealers on the corner just by your house... Hmm.. Let's nuke it. Sure, you'd kill a bunch of innocents but at least you've gotten rid of the pest. And well, you can repopulate after a while anyway so no-one's going to cry over it except for some idiot liberal politicians. Right?

[Oliver]

It would still be in the Middle Ages.

Like Finland. Right? I also recall the small matter of our War of Independence where we, with a little aid from the Brits and some Scandinavians, gave your bolshevik armies quite a good thrashing.

(Estonia and the others rather entered the Soviet union basically)

Because it was either "join us or die". You had military bases in our countries and you were able to build them because of the aforementioned "let us or die" policy Stalin was so keen on using.

Besides that, if you (what would happen 100% if the Soviet armies weren't there) got occupied by the Nazi forces, claiming they would try to 'Germanize' the locals, is bullshit over the limit.

My grandfather served in the SS. I don't think they would've let "untermenschen" join it.

They didn't do it to Poland, and other occupied lands in the East

Because they were slavs.

they firstly en-prisoned all the Jews, and then do the same to the local civilization

They never imprisoned any Estonian, Latvian or Lithuanian due to their race. They only took the jews, gypsies and slavs.

That was Hitler's vision, to create an environment strictly for the German master race as he claimed.

Along with the subjugated people who weren't deemed scum, for example the French, the English and us.

so it's hard to hate something that did less harm to you than something that did more and I understand that. But just know that if you would be occupied by the Nazi for AS LONG AS the SU 'did'

As I've said countless times, we passionately hated the Germans for having enslaved us for the past 700 years, and ONE BLOODY YEAR IN THE USSR CHANGED IT.

In your past post, you described that the Nazi tried to Germanify Estonia. Isn't that exactly the same? The only difference is that the Russians ruled longer over the Baltics than the Germans did.

If you had to choose, would you rather be seen as German or Russian? The choice is quite obvious.
If at all possible, we would've of course resisted it, like we did with the USSR.

Also note that nowadays, whole Eastern Europe relies on Russia, including Estonia. Remember the Ukranian oil scandal about a year or two ago?

A big chunk of the world "relies" on Russia. Should they actually "close the pipes" then we'd find something else.



ANYWAYS, this thread has been massively derailed. I'm dropping out.

[Gandalf]

Lithuanians are Baltic, and as such are not Slavic. The Germans, instead of counting the Balts among the "undermenschen", saw them as a subject race with the potential of "Germanizing". That's why some of us, those with enough "Aryan" features, were taken into the Waffen-SS.

Nazi go home.

[Pandalink]

Why did the allies work with the SU and not with Hitler?

Because Hitler made the initial aggressive move against the allied countries, and as the saying goes: "the enemy of my enemy is my ally".

[Oliver]

Stalin did not create the USSR, Lenin did and he did not use that policy.

We beat Lenin. This is about Stalin.

was your grandfather forced to join, or was he just hoping to achieve something more with the Nazi than he could with the SU?

A lot of Estonians enlisted in the 20th SS division and the Wehrmacht to kill Russians and show the world they still had fight in them. While we had no interest in condoning any of the actions that the Nazi party took while in power, a lot of us jumped at the chance to impale a Russian on their bayonet.

For 1 year of an invasion. What would happen after, for example, 10 years of occupation by the 3rd reich? The Baltics would be completely wiped out with everyone and everything in it what is not German.

I see you still think of yourselves as "liberators". No matter what the Germans would have done, the Soviets did it worse.

But do you think that the Nazi were seen any different?

They were at war with the Allies.

Why did the allies work with the SU and not with Hitler?

The principle of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

So would you like to be seen as a Nazi collaborator, which is generally seen as cowardly betrayal, or a 'Communist'

A Nazi collaborator any day of the week, although I would choose death over killing innocent people.
Our people who worked with the commies were also branded as "collaborators", so your point is moot. The exact same cowardly betrayal.

a member of a society who gave you food, gas, civilization, structure in socety and protection? No.

You gave us absolutely nothing that we didn't have before.

food - We grow our own food. Have you ever heard of bread, fruit and animals? Oh right, you believe that without your kolhozes we would've starved.

gas - We could have imported it from the west.

civilization - Apparently you consider killing culture people "giving people civilization". Because of you, a lot of our writers, poets and otherwise people who were well off fled the country. Culture-wise, the Soviet Union gave us jack shit and halted most of our cultural progress until the late 1980s.

structure in society - Whoopee, you killed off/deported our own politicians and replaced them with puppets of Moscow. Not to mention deporting thousands of others who you found too "competent" to survive in a communist society.


It's quite dreadful to see that people from Russia like still exist who still think that without their shitty Union, where nothing worked like it was supposed to, everyone in Eastern Europe would've died due to not knowing how to eat or sleep.
Apparently the 20 years during which we were independent led to our complete ruin and when the Soviets marched in, they were greeted by men resembling primates.

[EliteTerm]

What the hell happened to this topic? It's like a train derailed and crashed into a nuclear power plant.

[Ratko Gavrilovic]

Your argument is invalid. I wish to see how you're going to argument the fact that Soviets invaded Lithuanians with no actual reason.

Dont see the point of your laugh. Stalin WAS worse than Hitler. My country was invaded by the Soviets for over 50 years. It's the result of the current national downfall.
My grandma lived back then. She still tells me stories about her exhile to Syberia.

A little example my grandma gave me :

A german soldier - a cleaned, washed, shiny uniform with even more shiny boots, knocking on the door, coming and gently asking for water.
Soviet soldier - Kicking the door of the house, yelling on my grandma, asking for "Vodka", when my grandma says she aint got any, they beat her, steal her goat and leave.

I believe there is a reason why Lithuanian armed resistance was a lot stronger on Soviets than on Germans.

So because your country was invaded by the Soviets, Stalin is worse?
Stalin was a saint compared to Hitler.

[Exterminator]

What the hell happened to this topic? It's like a train derailed and crashed into a nuclear power plant.

The topic title gives a hint

On topic: Both hitler and stalin are dead, stop acting like immature kids and grow up. Neither of them or their armies would of given a shit what you say on this board if they were alive, your really defending people who dont care if you live or die...
Seriously you get branded so easily, stop fighting eachother over who was better, neither of them gives a shit if we are any good.

[Gandalf]

We beat Lenin. This is about Stalin.
A lot of Estonians enlisted in the 20th SS division and the Wehrmacht to kill Russians and show the world they still had fight in them. While we had no interest in condoning any of the actions that the Nazi party took while in power, a lot of us jumped at the chance to impale a Russian on their bayonet.
I see you still think of yourselves as "liberators". No matter what the Germans would have done, the Soviets did it worse.

They were at war with the Allies.
The principle of "The enemy of my enemy is my friend."
A Nazi collaborator any day of the week, although I would choose death over killing innocent people.
Our people who worked with the commies were also branded as "collaborators", so your point is moot. The exact same cowardly betrayal.
You gave us absolutely nothing that we didn't have before.

food - We grow our own food. Have you ever heard of bread, fruit and animals? Oh right, you believe that without your kolhozes we would've starved.

gas - We could have imported it from the west.

civilization - Apparently you consider killing culture people "giving people civilization". Because of you, a lot of our writers, poets and otherwise people who were well off fled the country. Culture-wise, the Soviet Union gave us jack shit and halted most of our cultural progress until the late 1980s.

structure in society - Whoopee, you killed off/deported our own politicians and replaced them with puppets of Moscow. Not to mention deporting thousands of others who you found too "competent" to survive in a communist society.


It's quite dreadful to see that people from Russia like still exist who still think that without their shitty Union, where nothing worked like it was supposed to, everyone in Eastern Europe would've died due to not knowing how to eat or sleep.
Apparently the 20 years during which we were independent led to our complete ruin and when the Soviets marched in, they were greeted by men resembling primates.

That is why you still hold Nazi marches,. support Nazi thoughts and act like Nazis.
Estonians are still fascists, who now attempt to make their own population pay because they were beaten and Stalin attempted to free the country of Nazism by removing all war criminals.

Russia gave you free education, free health care and free gas. Russians provided you with income from tourism. You repaid them by being fascists.
On the first possible moment, you claimed independence, and also on the fisrt possible moment you gave your independence away to the EU, knowing that on its own your country would never stand a chance of survival.

[Oliver]

Russia gave you free education

In Russian. My parents were forbidden to speak Estonian in school (though the law wasn't strict) and they had to revere Lenin as the "Greatest revolutionary".

free health care

To the "upper class" of the Communist society, yes. Neither of my parents were given any benefits whatsoever. My father's friend was sent to clean up Chernobyl after the accident and his health is still completely f**ked up, it's a wonder he's not dead or sterile.
My father himself was sent to Siberia for two years to build a missile launch facility for the USSR government.

Russians provided you with income from tourism.

We're getting plenty of tourists these days as well. Have you ever been to Tallinn in the summer? It's quite difficult to find any Estonians on the street.

You repaid them by being fascists.

A desperate move with the hopes of preserving our independence. Since that turned out to be completely impossible, we chose the lesser of two evils.

On the first possible moment, you claimed independence, and also on the fisrt possible moment you gave your independence away to the EU, knowing that on its own your country would never stand a chance of survival.

The EU has helped us get our economy up and running pretty damn good. They've done more for us in 8 years than the Russians did in  45.
I am aware of the numerous sanctions and the fact that the EU is quite unstable right now. Nothing we can do about that.

[Dolfagr]

Why do I see Russians standing up for Stalin but no Germans standing up for Hitler? That's a good arguement.